-
[QUOTE=Money 23]I fully realized that. That's why I said, if he kept that hot shooting, and got the minutes... he could've put up 60+ for sure.[/QUOTE]
Keeping the hot shooting and getting the minutes in a blowout game are the hard parts. Also, getting 16+ FT's on a hot shooting night, AND getting 40+ shots up AND staying in the game til the very end. It was a confluence of circumstances that allowed Kobe's game to occur:
-- he was incredibly hot (not normal hot -- incredibly hot)
-- he played the entire game and needed to score to erase a deficit (as opposed to sitting a lot with a big lead or playing but filling another role, like say facilitator, if the team was playing well)
-- he put up a huge # of shots
-- he got a ton of FT's in the same game that all of the above was happening
Jordan has unquestionably been "hotter" than Kobe many games (i.e., higher FG%); for example, in 1989 he went 24-29 from the field for 52 points -- he hit 21 of his first 23 shots that game. But he only got 4 free throws. There are other games like that; the point is that if he was having a super hot game, AND had to play big minutes, AND got a ton of FT's in the same game, AND took 46 shots in the same game, he'd have many more games of 60+ to his credit, and even possibly a couple of 70+ games.
This is not to discredit what Kobe did -- but you have to admit that everything came together for him that night, which is incredibly rare. A lot of that has nothing to do with him (e.g., the # of FT's awarded in any given game, the quality of the defense etc.). Still, a remarkable performance, and one that I probably won't see the equal of in my lifetime.
-
hmmmm
I'll have to with MJ
playoff game and against a great team like the Celtics.
Not to discredit Kobe though 91 points by a 2 guard is freaking crazy.
-
[QUOTE=crisoner]I'll have to with MJ
playoff game and against a great team like the Celtics.
Not to discredit Kobe though 91 points by a 2 guard is freaking crazy.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
I'm hoping this was facetious. :hammerhead: :D In fact, I'm pretty sure it was.
-
[QUOTE=crisoner]I'll have to with MJ
playoff game and against a great team like the Celtics.
Not to discredit Kobe though 91 points by a 2 guard is freaking crazy.[/QUOTE]
:confused:
-
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag[/url]
[B]LOL @ people acting like that's good defense. MJ was wide open damn near most the time.[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8MXycYwfRg[/url]
56 in 3 quarters back in 2002
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNGTN_s4l78[/url]
42 in a half(55 total) vs Wizards. [B]Kobe had over 30 points in a stretch of 7 minutes at one point[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeY6_f-pJWc[/url]
Kobe drops 62 in 3 quarters vs Dallas who had WAY MORE CAPABLE DEFENDERS than the damn Cavs.
Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe.
-
[QUOTE]Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe[/QUOTE]
Kobe highlights B-O-R-I-N-G. Jordan's jumpers are better than Kobe's dunks.
-
Eliteballer, what video were you watching? Jordan had 3-4 open shots in that game, and 2 of those were when he shot directly behind a screen so the defense couldn't challenge; another was on a kickout for 3, and the last (which was semi-challenged) was on a semi-transition pull-up from 18 feet. In addition, he had another open look when Price gambled and Jordan spun and fired, and another relatively open look that he himself generated by breaking Ehlo off on the baseline to create space. And one breakaway dunk. Every other shot of his 23 made field goals was contested by 1-2 defenders, not including the other attempts he was fouled on.
Kobe's performance was more impressive from a purely offensive POV, but don't engage in revisionist history when the evidence is right there for others to see.
-
what if jordan did not have to expend so much energy battling nance, brad daujghtery, and hot rod williams, for those rebounds? i think if jordan could have used more energy on scoring he probably would have had more points.
-
[QUOTE=eliteballer][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag[/url]
[B]LOL @ people acting like that's good defense. MJ was wide open damn near most the time.[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8MXycYwfRg[/url]
56 in 3 quarters back in 2002
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNGTN_s4l78[/url]
42 in a half(55 total) vs Wizards. [B]Kobe had over 30 points in a stretch of 7 minutes at one point[/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeY6_f-pJWc[/url]
Kobe drops 62 in 3 quarters vs Dallas who had WAY MORE CAPABLE DEFENDERS than the damn Cavs.
Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe.[/QUOTE]
A) This isnt Kobe vs Jordan as career, becaue only the most blind and ignorant fans would think that half a career is better than an entire career of Jordan's level.
B) Tell me how the 2005-06 Mavs defense was better than the 1989-90 Cavs defense. That wasn't a watered down league back then. Price, Ehlo, Nance and Doughrety. They'd win 55-60 easy in today's NBA.
-
[QUOTE=97 bulls]what if jordan did not have to expend so much energy battling nance, brad daujghtery, and hot rod williams, for those rebounds? i think if jordan could have used more energy on scoring he probably would have had more points.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, having watched the game a number of times, Jordan didn't "battle" for rebounds. Most of them came fairly easily. He found himself on the low block on a number of occasions and was able to pull them down. Many of the rebounds would have gone to a teammate if Jordan himself hadn't gotten them. I don't want to take away from Jordan's achievement; 18 rebounds is wonderful... but to say that he expended a lot of energy battling for rebounds isn't accurate. It was my intention to record the game last night but I got sidetracked. I wish I had... I'd have visual aid to further back up my statements. But having watched the game last night, Jordan wasn't battling anyone.
-
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Honestly, having watched the game a number of times, Jordan didn't "battle" for rebounds. Most of them came fairly easily. [B]He found himself on the low block on a number of occasions and was able to pull them down. Many of the rebounds would have gone to a teammate if Jordan himself hadn't gotten them.[/B] I don't want to take away from Jordan's achievement; 18 rebounds is wonderful... but to say that he expended a lot of energy battling for rebounds isn't accurate. It was my intention to record the game last night but I got sidetracked. I wish I had... I'd have visual aid to further back up my statements. But having watched the game last night, Jordan wasn't battling anyone.[/QUOTE]
You just don't "find" youself on the lowblock and take rebounds away from much taller and bigger and capable rebounding teammates. For example, the very first Jordan rebound was over 6 10 and high leaping, ex dunk champion Larry Nance and then fouled for a 3-point play. You expend effort as a 6"6 guard vs large men (Doughrety and Nance, not to mention those on his own team).
Jordan is the GOAT because of his will to win and do great. Kobe probabaly, all in all is as talented, he just doesn't have the will. No discredit to him, because I don't know if anybody in all of professional sports has had the will and desire to win like Jordan had. That is why he's not only the NBA GOAT, but ranks up there will the professional athlete GOATs.
-
[QUOTE=xxxSuperStar]You just don't "find" youself on the lowblock and take rebounds away from much taller and bigger and capable rebounding teammates. For example, the very first Jordan rebound was over 6 10 and high leaping, ex dunk champion Larry Nance and then fouled for a 3-point play. You expend effort as a 6"6 guard vs large men (Doughrety and Nance, not to mention those on his own team).
Jordan is the GOAT because of his will to win and do great. Kobe probabaly, all in all is as talented, he just doesn't have the will. No discredit to him, because I don't know if anybody in all of professional sports has had the will and desire to win like Jordan had. That is why he's not only the NBA GOAT, but ranks up there will the professional athlete GOATs.[/QUOTE]
This is where people's personal feeling get mixed up with objective, logical discourse. I'm not sure where the "Jordan is the Goat because of his will to win" diatribe came from. This discussion has nothing to do with Jordan being the Goat or his will to win. I'm saying that Jordan didn't expend a lot of energy battling and getting rebounds. Moreover, on several plays, he found himself on the low block in perfect position to grab rebounds. It's pretty simple. He wasn't flying in from the perimeter repeatedly to pull down boards, nor did he often find himself fighting the opposition for rebounds. Again, I've watched this game several times, and most recently, yesterday evening. The majority of Jordan's rebounds came easily. 18 rebounds is 18 rebounds... there is no need to exaggerate the feat. He didn't have to out jump or battle with Doughrety and Nance on too many occasions.
-
Im a diehard Bulls and Jordan fan and I say, Kobe's 81 point game was better (and I dont like Kobe at all) heres why:
Jordan got his 69 points during a whole game and overtime
Kobe got his 81 in a whole game without no overtime, plus the game was close too...so was the Jordan game, but I think that 5 extra minutes that MJ had gives Kobe the edge in this one...
-
[QUOTE=MaxFly]This is where people's personal feeling get mixed up with objective, logical discourse. I'm not sure where the "Jordan is the Goat because of his will to win" diatribe came from. This discussion has nothing to do with Jordan being the Goat or his will to win. I'm saying that Jordan didn't expend a lot of energy battling and getting rebounds. Moreover, on several plays, [B]he found himself on the low block in perfect position [/B]to grab rebounds. It's pretty simple. He wasn't flying in from the perimeter repeatedly to pull down boards, nor did he often find himself fighting the opposition for rebounds. Again, I've watched this game several times, and most recently, yesterday evening. The majority of Jordan's rebounds came easily. 18 rebounds is 18 rebounds... there is no need to exaggerate the feat. He didn't have to out jump or battle with Doughrety and Nance on too many occasions.[/QUOTE]
And like I said, do you think that players just "find themselves on the low block in perfect position?"
I have seen the game probably 10 times as well. Tell me what happened on the very first rebound, which was an offensive rebound BTW.
Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, D-Howard just don't "find themselves on the low block." They work to get the best position.
As a guard, Jason Kidd just doesn't "find himself on the low block" he works to get those rebounds.
People who get rebounds don't wait for them to "fall into their hands" and "find themselves on the low block," they work for them.
That's why people like Eddy Curry at 7 0 and 290 don't "find themselves on the low block." It takes effort.
And like I said, not that Kobe doesn't exert effort, there are just very few who exerted it all the time and consistently like MJ. Kobe does it a lot, more than just about anybody, but not all the time (see game 7 playoffs v Suns.)
-
[QUOTE=xxxSuperStar]And like I said, do you think that players just "find themselves on the low block in perfect position?"
[/QUOTE]
Yes, it happens all the time. If you're guarding someone and they are in the paint, on the outskirts, or you are collapsing on a player and find yourself close to the basket, you find yourself in pretty good rebounding position. Again, Jordan wasn't flying in from the perimeter to collect rebounds, nor did he have to work very hard to position himself for rebounds.
[QUOTE]I have seen the game probably 10 times as well. Tell me what happened on the very first rebound, which was an offensive rebound BTW.
Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, D-Howard just don't "find themselves on the low block." They work to get the best position.
As a guard, Jason Kidd just doesn't "find himself on the low block" he works to get those rebounds.
People who get rebounds don't wait for them to "fall into their hands" and "find themselves on the low block," they work for them.[/QUOTE]
There is a level of work involved. Rebounds seldom fall into your hands, though they do at times... but the majority of the rebounds that Jordan pulled down did not require him to expend a lot of energy or exert himself excessivly. Did he battle for a few rebounds, of course. Did he have to battle for the majority of his rebounds and expend a lot of energy? He did not.
[QUOTE]That's why people like Eddy Curry at 7 0 and 290 don't "find themselves on the low block." It takes effort. [/QUOTE]
Again, the reason that guards generally don't pull down a lot of rebounds is that they usually guard players on the perimeter, and as a result, find themselves in positions or locations on the court that make it difficult for them to get their hands on a rebound consistently. If the players Jordan guarded had stood out on the perimeter for the duration of the game, more likely than not, Jordan wouldn't have come down with 18 rebounds. However, Jordan was fortunate to find himself in positions that made it easier for him to rebound. There was one rebound where the ball bounced to the left block, and only Bulls players were in the paint. Jordan came down with the ball because he was in good position to get it. He didn't work very hard... didn't have to outleap several Cavs players, nor expend a lot of energy, and many of his other rebounds were of a similar fashion,.
[QUOTE]And like I said, not that Kobe doesn't exert effort, there are just very few who exerted it all the time and consistently like MJ. Kobe does it a lot, more than just about anybody, but not all the time (see game 7 playoffs v Suns.)[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure where Bryant comes into this. You keep mentioning him, but this specific discussion concerning Jordan's rebounds has nothing to do with him. This discussion you and I are having concerns whether Jordan expended a lot of energy collecting rebounds... Bryant doesn't factor into this specific conversation in the least. The poster I responded to said that Jordan expended a lot of energy going after rebounds. I addressed that specific issue and nothing else.
-
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Honestly, having watched the game a number of times, Jordan didn't "battle" for rebounds. Most of them came fairly easily. He found himself on the low block on a number of occasions and was able to pull them down. Many of the rebounds would have gone to a teammate if Jordan himself hadn't gotten them. I don't want to take away from Jordan's achievement; 18 rebounds is wonderful... but to say that he expended a lot of energy battling for rebounds isn't accurate. It was my intention to record the game last night but I got sidetracked. I wish I had... I'd have visual aid to further back up my statements. But having watched the game last night, Jordan wasn't battling anyone.[/QUOTE]
7 offensive rebounds -- which is what he had that game -- don't come easily. I guess he's the only player in history to have 18 rebounds fall into his lap. ;)
A little known fact: Jordan's career high in rebounds is 19, not 18, though NBA.com and most reference sites list 18 as his career high. He had 19 rebounds (8 offensive) vs. Philly in the '91 playoffs. I guess they only count regular season highs as "career highs"?
-
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Yes, it happens all the time. If you're guarding someone and they are in the paint, on the outskirts, or you are collapsing on a player and find yourself close to the basket, you find yourself in pretty good rebounding position. Again, Jordan wasn't flying in from the perimeter to collect rebounds, nor did he have to work very hard to position himself for rebounds.
There is a level of work involved. Rebounds seldom fall into your hands, though they do at times... but the majority of the rebounds that Jordan pulled down did not require him to expend a lot of energy or exert himself excessivly. Did he battle for a few rebounds, of course. Did he have to battle for the majority of his rebounds and expend a lot of energy? He did not.
I disagree, as I saw him work for many of the rebounds and considering that 7of his 18 rebounds were on the offensive end, that tells you something.
Two different people watching the same thing coming to a differnt conclusion is not unusual. I hope that one day Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Allen, Kidd, Melo,
Again, the reason that guards generally don't pull down a lot of rebounds is that they usually guard players on the perimeter, and as a result, find themselves in positions or locations on the court that make it difficult for them to get their hands on a rebound consistently. If the players Jordan guarded had stood out on the perimeter for the duration of the game, more likely than not, Jordan wouldn't have come down with 18 rebounds. However, Jordan was fortunate to find himself in positions that made it easier for him to rebound. There was one rebound where the ball bounced to the left block, and only Bulls players were in the paint. Jordan came down with the ball because he was in good position to get it. He didn't work very hard... didn't have to outleap several Cavs players, nor expend a lot of energy, and many of his other rebounds were of a similar fashion,.
I'm not sure where Bryant comes into this. You keep mentioning him, but this specific discussion concerning Jordan's rebounds has nothing to do with him. This discussion you and I are having concerns whether Jordan expended a lot of energy collecting rebounds... Bryant doesn't factor into this specific conversation in the least. The poster I responded to said that Jordan expended a lot of energy going after rebounds. I addressed that specific issue and nothing else.[/QUOTE]
I disagree, as I saw him work for many of the rebounds and considering that 7of his 18 rebounds were on the offensive end, that tells you something.
But, two different people watching the same thing coming to a differnt conclusion is not unusual.
I hope that one day Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Allen, Kidd, Melo and any other player in today's NBA may one day have 18 rebounds fall into their lap or find themselves in "perfect position" while scoring 69 points.
-
[QUOTE=xxxSuperStar]I disagree, as I saw him work for many of the rebounds and considering that 7of his 18 rebounds were on the offensive end, that tells you something. [/QUOTE]
He worked hard for a few of the rebounds, but the majority of rebounds didn't require that Jordan expend a lot of energy.
[QUOTE]I hope that one day Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Allen, Kidd, Melo and any other player in today's NBA may one day have 18 rebounds fall into their lap or find themselves in "perfect position" while scoring 69 points.[/QUOTE]
Depends on how those players reach 18 rebounds. If Lebron is battling for position more often than not, and actually expending a lot of energy to get rebounds, then that will be very impressive. If he manages to come down with 18 rebounds which is impressive, but it's obvious that he didn't have to overly exert himself, and someone says that Lebron expended a lot of energy pulling down rebound, I'd hope that others would realize that it wasn't so.
-
[QUOTE=hotsizzle]you're pathetic. playing the "if" game. bottom line is 81>69. To belive that jordan's 69 is better than kobe's 81 is fine and is legit but to play the "if" game and downplay kobe's performance is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
i take nothing away from Kobe you Laker Homer. I'm just saying that Kobe's 81 is nothing compared to Jordan's 69 and you even know that yourself. Don't play me dude.
-
Kobe's 62 in 33 minutes against the Conference Champs (Dallas) is BETTER than Jordan's 69 and Kobe's 81.
There, I said it...
who said I was a Kobe hater?
-
[QUOTE=04mzwach]i take nothing away from Kobe you Laker Homer. I'm just saying that Kobe's 81 is nothing compared to Jordan's 69 and you even know that yourself. Don't play me dude.[/QUOTE]
heres your post:
Jordan is better than Kobe. Seriously, how many times do we have to go through this Kobe 81 and Jordan 69 business? [B]We all know that Jordan would have 200 points in a game or something like that compared to Kobe's measley 81 points[/B] in a game with versus one of the ****tiest teams in the entire universe on top of that and with Jordan facing the best team with basketball abilities in equivilance to God.
nuff said
-
Pointless thread
If I saw Kobe's 81 point game on dvd I'd be willing to pay up to $7 for it. On the other hand, I wouldn't even waste my time watching Jordan's 69 point game in overtime.
-
[QUOTE=xxxSuperStar]You just don't "find" youself on the lowblock and take rebounds away from much taller and bigger and capable rebounding teammates. For example, the very first Jordan rebound was over 6 10 and high leaping, ex dunk champion Larry Nance and then fouled for a 3-point play. You expend effort as a 6"6 guard vs large men (Doughrety and Nance, not to mention those on his own team).
Jordan is the GOAT because of his will to win and do great. Kobe probabaly, all in all is as talented, he just doesn't have the will. No discredit to him, because I don't know if anybody in all of professional sports has had the will and desire to win like Jordan had. That is why he's not only the NBA GOAT, but ranks up there will the professional athlete GOATs.[/QUOTE]
Kobe doesn't have the will? Go **** yourself you ignorant, unknowledgable ****.
-
[QUOTE=ManUtd]Kobe doesn't have the will? Go **** yourself you ignorant, unknowledgable ****.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe he's saying that Kobe doesn't have the "will to win." He obviously does. Its just that his will and desire doesn't match Jordan's - which is true. You don't have to be either a Jordan or Kobe supporter to acknowledge this.
Its hard to measure things like "will" and "desire," but the only athlete that I would put on Jordan's level in that regard is Muhammad Ali.
-
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]I don't believe he's saying that Kobe doesn't have the "will to win." He obviously does. Its just that his will and desire doesn't match Jordan's - which is true. You don't have to be either a Jordan or Kobe supporter to acknowledge this.
Its hard to measure things like "will" and "desire," but the only athlete that I would put on Jordan's level in that regard is Muhammad Ali.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. That is exactly what I was saying.
-
To me it's Kobe's game.
81 points, 42 minutes, 1.93 PPM
69 points, 50 minutes, 1.38 PPM
That's a huge discrepency.
-
sorry, Jordan's 63 in the PLAYOFFS against the eventual champs, and also one of the top 5 greatest basketball teams OF ALL TIME , is more impressive than his 69 or Kobe's 81 against the worse team in the league in the regular season.
And Jordan fans, why even waste breath arguing with Kobe fans, Jordan has done so much more besides the 69, hell I'm a huge Jordan fan and I don't even care about the 69, he has had at least 10-15 more memorable or better performances, most of them when it mattered, WITH THE CHAMPIONSHIP on the line, so let Kobe fans have their 81, it'll be like the way Tmac fans always bring up their 13 in 35 EVERY FREAKING TIME Tmac is being compared to another player. After a few more years of .500 ball and first round exits, that's all the Kobe fans will have.
I can just picture it, in 2009 or so--
Lebron fan: Damn Lebron, back to back MVPs, led his team to the finals, averaged 30 10 and 9 for a whole season.
Kobe fan: So, remember when Kobe had 81?
it's gonna be like that, they're gonna hold on to the 81, that's all they have right now.
I love how one dimensional their thinking is too, it's like we can be arguing who's a better player, and Duncan fans will bring up their team success/win % with Duncan, Lebron fans will bring up his many upsides (youth, athletism), Wade will bring up his amazing performance in the Finals, generally, most fans will have something legit to bring up, something that usually lasts more than one game or has been proven over a few seasons.... Kobe fans wlil just jump in and go "OH YEAH, WELL CAN LEBRON SCORE 81? NOP HE CAN'T" and act like that's enough to justify Kobe as the most important player in the league. Come on man, Duncan barely scores 21 and I'd take Duncan over Kobe every game every time ( and so would most NBA execs, GM, coaches)
-
[QUOTE=ekzistenz]To me it's Kobe's game.
81 points, 42 minutes, 1.93 PPM
69 points, 50 minutes, 1.38 PPM
That's a huge discrepency.[/QUOTE]
This is just stupid. The real discrepancy here is in the assertion made and the obvious lack of understanding of how the game works by this poster.
While stats are important, you can't reduce a comparison between two games to "points per minute." How retarded is that? You haven't factored in the quality of the opponent, the significance/importance of the game, the venue where it was played, or many other such factors which add many more layers of complexity to this discussion.
There have been some good arguments on both sides in this thread, but please feel free not to join in if a stupid "ppm" criteria is all you're going to contribute.
-
[QUOTE]sorry, Jordan's 63 in the PLAYOFFS against the eventual champs, and also one of the top 5 greatest basketball teams OF ALL TIME , is more impressive than his 69 or Kobe's 81 against the worse team in the league in the regular season.[/QUOTE]
so you take 63 in a double-OT loss over 81 or even 69 points in a win? If so, you're one dumb ****
-
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]I don't believe he's saying that Kobe doesn't have the "will to win." He obviously does. Its just that his will and desire doesn't match Jordan's - which is true. You don't have to be either a Jordan or Kobe supporter to acknowledge this.
Its hard to measure things like "will" and "desire," but the only athlete that I would put on Jordan's level in that regard is Muhammad Ali.[/QUOTE]
Umm, check your facts. Kobe's will to win is incredible. On the par with Jordan's. In fact, Tex Winter said that Kobe works harder than Jordan. That's saying something.
Kobe and Jordan are equals when it comes to will, desire and hard work.
-
[QUOTE]Umm, check your facts. Kobe's will to win is incredible.[/QUOTE]
"will to win" can hardly be called a "fact"
-
[QUOTE=MJ23Overrated]If I saw Kobe's 81 point game on dvd I'd be willing to pay up to $7 for it. On the other hand, I wouldn't even waste my time watching Jordan's 69 point game in overtime.[/QUOTE]
This is funny as hell, I am not sure whether it is because the post is so random yet speaks the truth to a large degree, or because it's the first post titled "pointless thread" by a poster called "MJ23overrated".
If Kobe's 81 points game and MJ's 69 points game were both on dvd available at the same price and I only had the money for one I'd pick Kobe's for sure. I don't know why, maybe it's because video nowadays are in better quality or something.
-
[QUOTE=Lei]This is funny as hell, I am not sure whether it is because the post is so random yet speaks the truth to a large degree, or because it's the first post titled "pointless thread" by a poster called "MJ23overrated".
If Kobe's 81 points game and MJ's 69 points game were both on dvd available at the same price and I only had the money for one I'd pick Kobe's for sure. I don't know why, maybe it's because video nowadays are in better quality or something.[/QUOTE]
I'd pick Kobe's too, simply because it's more historic. Doesn't make it the better overall game, however. :P
-
[QUOTE=Lei]If Kobe's 81 points game and MJ's 69 points game were both on dvd available at the same price and I only had the money for one I'd pick Kobe's for sure. I don't know why, maybe it's because video nowadays are in better quality or something.[/QUOTE]
There's an element of theatrics present in the Bryant game that just isn't present in the Jordan game. The 81 points itself is somewhat exciting, but the nature of the feat, the circumstances under which the points were scored, and the effect that Bryant's performance had on both teams, almost single handedly turning the game around, all lend to the allure of the 81 point game.
One thing about Jordan's performance is that the Bulls at a point had a decent lead. It was the Cavs who had come back to make the game close inspite of Jordan's huge numbers. It's almost the reverse of what generally makes for exciting games... one player is putting up big numbers for the duration of a game, his team develops a decent lead, but it's the other team comes back to almost win... It's almost an anticlimax.
On the other hand, the Lakers were down by a lot of points to the Raptors. A team that many have described as the worst defensive team in quite some time had managed to lock up almost all of Bryant's teammates with the exception of a few and were having their way with the them. Commentators were saying that the game was over and most of the Lakers were playing as if it was over. Bryant then leads the team back from being down big, the energy of his teammates picks up as a result of his play and they too begin to play better, they turn a large deficit into a large lead, Bryant scores the second most points in NBA history, and they win. People like comeback stories, especially ones that are theatrical and improbable. This is likely why Bryant's game is more exciting for some. This certainly doesn't mean that it was a better performance, and I think that this is where some get mixed up. They don't differentiate between the more exciting performance and the better all around performance.
-
[QUOTE=MaxFly]There's an element of theatrics present in the Bryant game that just isn't present in the Jordan game. The 81 points itself is somewhat exciting, but the nature of the feat, the circumstances under which the points were scored, and the effect that Bryant's performance had on both teams, almost single handedly turning the game around, all lend to the allure of the 81 point game.
One thing about Jordan's performance is that the Bulls at a point had a decent lead. It was the Cavs who had come back to make the game close inspite of Jordan's huge numbers. It's almost the reverse of what generally makes for exciting games... one player is putting up big numbers for the duration of a game, his team develops a decent lead, but it's the other team comes back to almost win... It's almost an anticlimax.
On the other hand, the Lakers were down by a lot of points to the Raptors. A team that many have described as the worst defensive team in quite some time had managed to lock up almost all of Bryant's teammates with the exception of a few and were having their way with the them. Commentators were saying that the game was over and most of the Lakers were playing as if it was over. Bryant then leads the team back from being down big, the energy of his teammates picks up as a result of his play and they too begin to play better, they turn a large deficit into a large lead, Bryant scores the second most points in NBA history, and they win. People like comeback stories, especially ones that are theatrical and improbable. This is likely why Bryant's game is more exciting for some. [B]This certainly doesn't mean that it was a better performance, and I think that this is where some get mixed up. They don't differentiate between the more exciting performance and the better all around performance.[/B][/QUOTE]
Great post overall and I think it's pretty reasonable to say Jordan had the better [B]all around [/B]performance. I'd just like to point out that the thread was actually about "the more impressive" performance as the thread starter put it:
[QUOTE][B]Which is more impressive?[/B] I have to say Jordans. 18 rebounds while scoring 69 points is unheard of.[/QUOTE]
So I think the criteria is rather the degree of "impressiveness", which is why I'd take Kobe's for those key factors you mentioned above such as the second highest score in history, a dramatic comeback (singlehandedly) under pressure instead of almost blowing a lead, etc.
-
[QUOTE=EricForman]sorry, Jordan's 63 in the PLAYOFFS against the eventual champs, and also one of the top 5 greatest basketball teams OF ALL TIME , is more impressive than his 69 or Kobe's 81 against the worse team in the league in the regular season.
And Jordan fans, why even waste breath arguing with Kobe fans, Jordan has done so much more besides the 69, hell I'm a huge Jordan fan and I don't even care about the 69, he has had at least 10-15 more memorable or better performances, most of them when it mattered, WITH THE CHAMPIONSHIP on the line, so let Kobe fans have their 81, it'll be like the way Tmac fans always bring up their 13 in 35 EVERY FREAKING TIME Tmac is being compared to another player. After a few more years of .500 ball and first round exits, that's all the Kobe fans will have.
I can just picture it, in 2009 or so--
Lebron fan: Damn Lebron, back to back MVPs, led his team to the finals, averaged 30 10 and 9 for a whole season.
Kobe fan: So, remember when Kobe had 81?
it's gonna be like that, they're gonna hold on to the 81, that's all they have right now.
I love how one dimensional their thinking is too, it's like we can be arguing who's a better player, and Duncan fans will bring up their team success/win % with Duncan, Lebron fans will bring up his many upsides (youth, athletism), Wade will bring up his amazing performance in the Finals, generally, most fans will have something legit to bring up, something that usually lasts more than one game or has been proven over a few seasons.... Kobe fans wlil just jump in and go "OH YEAH, WELL CAN LEBRON SCORE 81? NOP HE CAN'T" and act like that's enough to justify Kobe as the most important player in the league. Come on man, Duncan barely scores 21 and I'd take Duncan over Kobe every game every time ( and so would most NBA execs, GM, coaches)[/QUOTE]
who started this thread? was it a kobe fan? NO. and Kobe had done alot more than 81 to be remembered for, haters like you are bringin up kobe's 81 and how insiginificant it was, when you damn well if Lebron or wade had that, you and others would be all over their nuts. you seem to be puttin words into our mouth, kobe's arguement against the rest of them cats is not his 81 pts game and all that, hes actually more skilled than lebron/wade and plays 10x better defense, clutchness, etc... keep dreaming about that scenario in 2009...Im sure Kobe proved you wrong before and will prove you wrong again
-
[QUOTE=ManUtd]Kobe doesn't have the will? Go **** yourself you ignorant, unknowledgable ****.[/QUOTE]
lol, why are you angry like saying "kobe doesnt have the will" isthe most ridiculous statement ever?
what happened in game 7 this year?
I also came up with a fool proof way to counter the Kobe fans about game 7.
Since Kobe had such a quiet, downright bad second half, in the most important game of the year. you can only come to two conclusions--
1: He tried his best but that mediocre second half was all he could do
2: He didn't try his best
so what is it man, did he try his best but stunked it up in game 7 or did he not try his best ? either way, either he ain't that good or he quit... i'm choosing the latter, but I want you, Kobe fan to choose.
[QUOTE]so you take 63 in a double-OT loss over 81 or even 69 points in a win? If so, you're one dumb ****[/QUOTE]
It doesn't necessarily mean I "take" losing over winning, you moron. It simply means I believe the 63 point performance was more impressive than the 69 and the 81 because of the competition and the situation. Maybe your dumba** hasn't figured it out yet, and alot of Kobe 81 point lovers have not, but regular season usually tend to be a lot less competitive than the playoffs, especialy when a team is already out of contention (like the raptors). Jordan dropped 63 on one of the top five teams of ALL TIME (think about it for a second, top five nba team ALL TIME in the history of all teams), yes it would have been nicer if the Bulls had won that game, but you can't use the bulls lost to simply discredit the performance as impressive. 81 vs the worse team in the league in a meaningless regular season, or 63 against a TOP FIVE TEAM ALL TIME PLAYING THEIR ABSOLUTE HARDEST....... I take 63. You probably wouldn't understand though, cause you're a moron.
-
[QUOTE=hotsizzle]who started this thread? was it a kobe fan? NO. and Kobe had done alot more than 81 to be remembered for, haters like you are bringin up kobe's 81 and how insiginificant it was, when you damn well if Lebron or wade had that, you and others would be all over their nuts. you seem to be puttin words into our mouth, kobe's arguement against the rest of them cats is not his 81 pts game and all that, hes actually more skilled than lebron/wade and plays 10x better defense, clutchness, etc... keep dreaming about that scenario in 2009...Im sure Kobe proved you wrong before and will prove you wrong
again[/QUOTE]
Just because you didn't use the 81 points to justify everything doesn't mean most Kobe fans on here don't. Remember, most Laker fans on here are morons. There was a thread a while back debating player you'd most want on your team, I wrote a two paragraph stating solid numbers that Duncan has simply won more and won enough to put him on a historic leve (with bill russell and shaq, im talking about career win %, not number of rings), throw int he fact that Duncan has won over 50 games EVERY YEAR OF HIS CAREER and has done it with multiple supporting cast, including some not-so-great cast, Duncan was the clear choice.
Then some clown Laker fans claims Duncan can barely score 21, let alone 81 so he's not overrateed and aint as good as Kobe. I mean come on, you can't say you don't read sh*t like that on here. People are morons, they only look at stats, they think because Duncan only averaged 18 and 10 last year he's no longer a top 10 player.
I'm sorry, Kobe quit in game 7 this year, so let's stop the "will to win" crap. I'm from LA, and you Laker Kobe bandwagon jumpers annoy me to no end.
-
[QUOTE=EricForman]Just because you didn't use the 81 points to justify everything doesn't mean most Kobe fans on here don't. Remember, most Laker fans on here are morons. There was a thread a while back debating player you'd most want on your team, I wrote a two paragraph stating solid numbers that Duncan has simply won more and won enough to put him on a historic leve (with bill russell and shaq, im talking about career win %, not number of rings), throw int he fact that Duncan has won over 50 games EVERY YEAR OF HIS CAREER and has done it with multiple supporting cast, including some not-so-great cast, Duncan was the clear choice.
Then some clown Laker fans claims Duncan can barely score 21, let alone 81 so he's not overrateed and aint as good as Kobe. I mean come on, you can't say you don't read sh*t like that on here. People are morons, they only look at stats, they think because Duncan only averaged 18 and 10 last year he's no longer a top 10 player.
I'm sorry, Kobe quit in game 7 this year, so let's stop the "will to win" crap. I'm from LA, and you Laker Kobe bandwagon jumpers annoy me to no end.[/QUOTE]
I'll give you the first two paragraphs because some laker or kobe fans are like that, but not all are.
I dont agree with the last statement whatsoever. Look at it this way, Kobe had 23 in the first half...and they were down 15, he had to change his style because obviously it wasnt working. Now, I agree that it was wrong because he leaned towards sharing the ball too much. he didnt find the balane. He was unaggressive and didnt show much drive at all. For this I blame Kobe, and I'll admit to that. But there is no way, no way, he would even think of quiting. He hasnt done if for 10 yrs, even when him and shaq were having problems, kobe would always be the one sparking the 4th qtr comebacks...no reason to believe he would quit now. BUt hey, answer this honestly, if kobe would have went out firing in the second half...I guarantee your arguement would be "See, Kobe went back to his old selfish self..blah blah blah"
-
[QUOTE]It doesn't necessarily mean I "take" losing over winning, you moron. It simply means I believe the 63 point performance was more impressive than the 69 and the 81 because of the competition and the situation. Maybe your dumba** hasn't figured it out yet, and alot of Kobe 81 point lovers have not, but regular season usually tend to be a lot less competitive than the playoffs, especialy when a team is already out of contention (like the raptors). Jordan dropped 63 on one of the top five teams of ALL TIME (think about it for a second, top five nba team ALL TIME in the history of all teams), yes it would have been nicer if the Bulls had won that game, but you can't use the bulls lost to simply discredit the performance as impressive. 81 vs the worse team in the league in a meaningless regular season, or 63 against a TOP FIVE TEAM ALL TIME PLAYING THEIR ABSOLUTE HARDEST....... I take 63. You probably wouldn't understand though, cause you're a moron.[/QUOTE]
putting up huge stats while losing is meaningless. Isn't that what Kobe haters say all the time? btw, did he even have 50 by the end of regulation that game?