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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE]- Pippen presses Magic, Magic blows right by him into the middle for a wide open kick out 3.[/QUOTE]
Not that easy. That is at 42:37, Magic gets past Pippen and runs into two Bulls--then passes to an open player. Magic legitimately gets by--but this is part of what you have to do with great players, force them into tough positions. Time and again Magic runs right into a defender(s) behind Pippen.
As to the open 3, once again the Bulls decide to leave a player wide open (Grant on Worthy).
Magic is finding wide open players who aren't being defended.
At 44:50, Pippen is hammered at half court, leading Magic to take (and miss) and open three.
45:23, Pippen harassing Magic again but Magic gets past--but runs right into Grant and takes and misses a bad shot (Magic thought he was fouled).
46:20, Pippen giving Magic trouble in the post, Cartwright comes over--Magic passes out to Cambpell who passes to a driving Perkins (who blows past MJ after losing Paxson).
46:50, Pippen cuts Magic's angle off near half court. Jordan comes over to trap, Magic forced to pass to Divac. Divac finds an open Worthy for 2. Grant lost him as he thought about leaving Worthy open in the post to rotate over to Divac (left open due to MJ trapping) for 3. Pippen did his job, Grant botched his. You can live with a Divac three, not an 8 footer from Worthy.
47:39, Pippen harassing Magic yet again. Magic careens into a Pippen/Jordan sandwich. MJ is in front of him, Magic blows by for a layup. Magic scores but had to work for it. Only his second field goal with 8 1/2 in the third.
51:36, Scott brings the ball up. Grant decides to leave Worthy wide open. Scott passes to Divac in the post who hits the open Worthy for 2. I mention this because Pippen/Magic aren't involved in this play at all yet Divac finds the open man like Magic did when Perkins/Worthy were left open earlier.
52:07, Bulls pulling away. Magic posts up Pippen, Grant decides to leave Worthy open again, Magic passes it to Worthy for 2.
52:26, Magic running but Pippen knocks the ball away to disrupt the transition opportunity.
52:50, Magic gets past MJ, misses a layup.
53:00, Pippen picks Magic up full court, Magic gives up the ball.
53:35, Magic misses a lay up contested by Pippen.
54:14, Pippen giving Magic trouble bringing the ball up yet again. Passes to Worthy, Worthy loses the ball.
55:00, Magic gets past Pippen (and Levingston), MJ fouls him.
56:58, Divac brings the ball up initially (then Scott).
1:01:00, Magic dunks but you only see the end of the play since NBC had a graphic up.
1:01:50, Pippen gives Magic the usual trouble bringing the ball up. Magic gets by--runs into two defenders and gets a charge.
1:06:40, Pippen fouls Magic for FT's.
1:07:37, Pippen stays in front of Magic, Grant comes over. Green, who wasn't covered, shoots and misses an open 3. An open look but hardly Pippen's fault--no one is covering Green.
1:10:20, discussion of the pressure Magic is under. Fratello says they may have to play Scott at PG for the next game to take the pressure off.
1:11:02, Divac pushes MJ away and gets open for a layup, Magic finds him.
1:20:30, Pippen hounds Magic, Magic gets by and runs into Williams but tips his miss.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
Pippen only guarded Magic for 6 of 20 quarters (less than 30% of possessions)
Jordan guarded Magic most of the series - 14 of 20 quarters plus OT
[B]So MJ had twice the defensive impact on Magic because he guarded Magic twice as much as Pippen
And forwards normally guard Magic, so MJ did Pippen's job for him by guarding Magic most of the time[/B]
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
Take your 1-9 agenda to another thread.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14054836]Take your 1-9 agenda to another thread.[/QUOTE]
Pippen only guarded Magic for 6 of 20 quarters (less than 30% of possessions)
Jordan guarded Magic most of the series - 14 of 20 quarters plus OT
^^^ do you dispute this?
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14054450]So two runs where he won 0 playoff games? That's the best you got?[/QUOTE]
That's a lot better than Pippen's performance without Mike
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
.
[B]THREAD CLIFFS[/B]
Pippen's stats are on a similar level to most prominent sidekicks, yet MJ was the only 1st option that won 6 rings and 3-peated - Magic actually received more production from Kareem or Worthy, yet he only won 5.. Bird also got more from McHale and Parish or DJ, yet Bird only has 3.
And on down the line..
Everyone got at least 16 ppg with terrible efficiency from their sidekick, yet only MJ three-peated twice.. Yikes.. only mj could get ANYWHERE NEAR six rings with pippen and no third option..
tbh, only the very top guys at their PEAK could win with just Pippen and no 3rd option.. aka 71' Kareem or 00' Shaq (the only other times where the scoring champ won title).. and maybe a [I]small handful of other top seasons - that's the only level that wins with Pippen.[/I]
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14055024].
[B]THREAD CLIFFS[/B]
Pippen's stats are on a similar level to most prominent sidekicks, yet MJ was the only 1st option that won 6 rings and 3-peated - Magic actually received more production from Kareem or Worthy, yet he only won 5.. Bird also got more from McHale and Parish or DJ, yet Bird only has 3.
And on down the line..
Everyone got at least 16 ppg with terrible efficiency from their sidekick, yet only MJ three-peated twice.. Yikes.. only mj could get ANYWHERE NEAR six rings with pippen and no third option..
tbh, only the very top guys at their PEAK could win with just Pippen [B][U]and no 3rd option[/U][/B].. aka 71' Kareem or 00' Shaq (the only other times where the scoring champ won title).. and maybe a [I]small handful of other top seasons - that's the only level that wins with Pippen.[/I][/QUOTE]
[B]So Horace Grant wasn't a good 3rd option? :confusedshrug: He was Top 5 Defensive PF in the 90s and a 15-10 guy and All Star when Jordan wasn't around. He then left to the 94-95 Magic and got passed MJ and Pippen and played great that series. He was a great 3rd option! :no:[/B]
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=Round Mound;14055050][B]So Horace Grant wasn't a good 3rd option? :confusedshrug: He was Top 5 Defensive PF in the 90s and a 15-10 guy and All Star when Jordan wasn't around. He then left to the 94-95 Magic and got passed MJ and Pippen and played great that series. He was a great 3rd option! :no:[/B][/QUOTE]
Horace is comparable to all-defender Varejao in 2010, or Mosgov who changed the Cavs' fortunes in 2015.. or Zydrunas averaged 2.5 blocks and Bosh is one of the pioneers of elite PNR defense..
So don't give me "b-b-but horace".. Lebron had tons of guys that were vastly superior...
Ultimately, horace was a 1-time all-star and Bosh was an 11-time all-star. while Love was a 1-time best PF in the game... Even Zydrunas and Jamison were 2-time all-stars while playing with lebron or 1 year removed.
Again, Lebron had tons of guys that were vastly superior... Heck, birdman compared defensively, and prime Haslem compared as well..
Lebron played with WAY better players than MJ, and much more OF them (7 all-stars to 1 for MJ)
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14055052]Horace is comparable to all-defender Varejao in 2010, or Mosgov who changed the Cavs' fortunes in 2015.. or Zydrunas averaged 2.5 blocks and Bosh is one of the pioneers of elite PNR defense..
So don't give me "b-b-but horace".. Lebron had tons of guys that were vastly superior...
Ultimately, horace was a 1-time all-star and Bosh was an 11-time all-star. while Love was a 1-time best PF in the game... Even Zydrunas and Jamison were 2-time all-stars while playing with lebron or 1 year removed.
Again, Lebron had tons of guys that were vastly superior... Heck, birdman compared defensively, and prime Haslem compared as well..
Lebron played with WAY better players than MJ, and much more OF them (7 all-stars to 1 for MJ)[/QUOTE]
[B]I wasn´t talking abou Lebron at all :confusedshrug:...i was just saying that Horace was a very good 3rd option. Which he was...:rolleyes:[/B]
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=Round Mound;14055055][B]I wasn´t talking abou Lebron at all :confusedshrug:...i was just saying that Horace was a very good 3rd option. Which he was...:rolleyes:[/B][/QUOTE]
No, Larry Nance was a good 3rd option because the definition of "option" is that they can be relied upon to make a play offensively - so bangers/play-finishers like Grant don't qualify..
Schrempf was a great 3rd option - everything Kukoc was supposed to be, and he outplayed Pippen in the Finals despite being 3rd option
Dumas was 4th option but he was like a new age Pippen with better efficiency - aka 16 on 57% in the Finals - eerily similar to Kawhi's scoring in 14', aka torching Pippen in a Siakam-like, breakout performance in Game 5.
Divac and Perkins destroyed Horace in the 91' Finals - were both sophisticated, do-it-all bigs that averaged 18/9, while Horace's predictable play-finishing spots dried up.
Hornacek is underrated as a 3rd guy and Majerle was ahead of his time..
All these guys had something dynamic offensively that the defense had to be wary of OTHER than 2-point dunker-role type stuff
And maybe that's the problem with how you're looking at it.. aka through today's beginner format lense, where ALL the bigmen play like Horace ("dunker role", overly-spaced, beginner crap)... But back then, he was a replaceable robot because the good bigs could affect the game by creating for themselves.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14055063]No, Larry Nance was a good 3rd option because the definition of "option" is that they can be relied upon to make a play offensively - so bangers/play-finishers like Grant don't qualify..
Schrempf was a great 3rd option - everything Kukoc was supposed to be, and he outplayed Pippen in the Finals despite being 3rd option
Dumas was 4th option but he was like a new age Pippen with better efficiency - aka 16 on 57% in the Finals - eerily similar to Kawhi's scoring in 14', aka torching Pippen in a Siakam-like, breakout performance in Game 5.
Divac and Perkins destroyed Horace in the 91' Finals - were both sophisticated, do-it-all bigs that averaged 18/9, while Horace's predictable play-finishing spots dried up.
Hornacek is underrated as a 3rd guy and Majerle was ahead of his time..
All these guys had something dynamic offensively that the defense had to be wary of OTHER than 2-point dunker-role type stuff
And maybe that's the problem with how you're looking at it.. aka through today's beginner format lense, where ALL the bigmen play like Horace ("dunker role", overly-spaced, beginner crap)... But back then, he was a replaceable robot because the good bigs could affect the game by creating for themselves.[/QUOTE]
[B]Offense is no the whole game what Pippen and Grant brought to the BULLS WAS TOP LEVEL ALL NBA TYPE DEFENSE (and versatility in Point-Forward Pippen).
To measure the level of a 2nd and 3rd option is to see them play without their 1st option, so here we go:
- 2nd Option Pippen: What happened after 1st option MJ left? 55 Wins (two wins less than with 1st option) and a Call Away From Getting to the Confrence Finals. Pippen was GREAT and Grant was "Very Good"
- 3rd Option Grant Leaves to the Magic. 2nd Option Pippen and 1st Option MJ loose to young Shaq, Penny and yes a "Very Good" 3rd option in Grant.[/B]
:confusedshrug:
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=Round Mound;14055050][B]So Horace Grant wasn't a good 3rd option? :confusedshrug: He was Top 5 Defensive PF in the 90s and a 15-10 guy and All Star when Jordan wasn't around. He then left to the 94-95 Magic and got passed MJ and Pippen and played great that series. He was a great 3rd option! :no:[/B][/QUOTE]
It is funny, whenever the 94' season comes up MJ stans will sing songs about how great a [U]second[/U] option Grant was. So Grant was a great second option, but sucked as a third option. #Agendas :lol
20 pages of MJ stans saying how great a "supporting cast" the Bulls had in 94' and how they "should" have won the chip without MJ. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481147-1994-Pippen-should-have-been-mvp[/url]
If the "cast" is awesome when it is Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc then surely it is awesome when it is Pippen/Grant/Armstrong since Pippen/Grant/Armstrong>>>Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14056640]It is funny, whenever the 94' season comes up MJ stans will sing songs about how great a [U]second[/U] option Grant was. So Grant was a great second option, but sucked as a third option. #Agendas :lol
20 pages of MJ stans saying how great a "supporting cast" the Bulls had in 94' and how they "should" have won the chip without MJ. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481147-1994-Pippen-should-have-been-mvp[/url]
If the "cast" is awesome when it is Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc then surely it is awesome when it is Pippen/Grant/Armstrong since Pippen/Grant/Armstrong>>>Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc.[/QUOTE]
:lol
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14056640]It is funny, whenever the 94' season comes up MJ stans will sing songs about how great a [U]second[/U] option Grant was. So Grant was a great second option, but sucked as a third option. #Agendas :lol
20 pages of MJ stans saying how great a "supporting cast" the Bulls had in 94' and how they "should" have won the chip without MJ. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481147-1994-Pippen-should-have-been-mvp[/url]
If the "cast" is awesome when it is Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc then surely it is awesome when it is Pippen/Grant/Armstrong since Pippen/Grant/Armstrong>>>Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc.[/QUOTE]
MJ fans by year
1993: Team was shit without MJ he carried those bums
1994: They still had Pippen and Kukoc, both were so good they should have won 65 games and a chip!!!11!!1!!!!
1996: Team was shit without MJ he carried those bums
:lol
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=TheCorporation;14057032]MJ fans by year
1993: Team was shit without MJ he carried those bums
1994: They still had Pippen and Kukoc, both were so good they should have won 65 games and a chip!!!11!!1!!!!
1996: Team was shit without MJ he carried those bums
:lol[/QUOTE]
:roll: perfect! Especially the part of erasing 1995 altogether! :lol
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14056640]It is funny, whenever the 94' season comes up MJ stans will sing songs about how great a [U]second[/U] option Grant was. So Grant was a great second option, but sucked as a third option. #Agendas :lol
20 pages of MJ stans saying how great a "supporting cast" the Bulls had in 94' and how they "should" have won the chip without MJ. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481147-1994-Pippen-should-have-been-mvp[/url]
If the "cast" is awesome when it is Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc then surely it is awesome when it is Pippen/Grant/Armstrong since Pippen/Grant/Armstrong>>>Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc.[/QUOTE]
that thread had a lot of bad back and forths haha. Some from you included tbf. I like taylor a lot but you cant just cite his opinions as an end all be all. I still take ewing in 94 but 90s ewing does get a bit overrated however i think(he's a lot closer to pippen than hakeem or drob). I think ewings cast is better too. The RS wins are close but the knicks had an obvious edge in point differential.
It is some bad faith when people say the bulls cast in 94 is awesome and/or the bulls and knicks were evenly matched but at the same time downplay the cast in 93 and/or prop the 93 Knicks as one of the toughest challenges. It's definitely not consistent
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE]It is some bad faith when people say the bulls cast in 94 is awesome and/or the bulls and knicks were evenly matched but at the same time downplay the cast in 93 and/or prop the 93 Knicks as one of the toughest challenges. It's definitely not consistent[/QUOTE]
Exactly. The Knicks were the Bulls' top competitor in the 90's and they always say how great they were but then in 94' say the Bulls were so much better than the Knicks that the Bulls without MJ should have beaten them anyway.
The reality is the Bulls played the Knicks and Cavs in 92', 93', and 94'. Three years in a row. There was a decline but the Bulls didn't fall off a cliff in 94' like they present it as.
Bulls vs. Cavs 1992-1994: 4-2, 4-0, 3-0
Bulls vs. Knicks 1992-1994: 4-3, 4-2, 3-4
We know the last two were closer than the line suggests. Hue Hollins stole Game 5 from the Bulls in 94' and the Knicks almost won Game 5 in 93' (the "Charles Smith game") to take a 3-2 lead. A few bounces go differently and those series shift. The difference is the Bulls had a harder time obtaining those wins in 94' than in 93'.
Bulls' point differential vs. Knicks 1992-1994: +3.8, +4.7, +1.2
Bulls' point differential vs. Cavs 1992-1994: +1.8, +8.5, +6.6
[QUOTE] I like taylor a lot but you cant just cite his opinions as an end all be all.[/QUOTE]
It is usually to back up my overall point. Anyone can make personal declarations. I like bringing stats, expert opinions, reporting, etc. to back up my points. Notice the other side never does that in that thread (they bring stats up occasionally--but only to diss Pippen, not do a real comparison)? You know why. What I do is no different than a newspaper reporter saying something and then quoting an expert or source to back the point up or a historian saying "experts thought X at the time" and then quoting a newspaper or someone relevant about it or a lawyer citing evidence to support his/her case. Etc. This tendency is just a product of my background.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14057181]
It is usually to back up my overall point. Anyone can make personal declarations. I like bringing stats, expert opinions, reporting, etc. to back up my points. Notice the other side never does that in that thread (they bring stats up occasionally--but only to diss Pippen, not do a real comparison)? You know why. What I do is no different than a newspaper reporter saying something and then quoting an expert or source to back the point up or a historian saying "experts thought X at the time" and then quoting a newspaper or someone relevant about it or a lawyer citing evidence to support his/her case. Etc. This tendency is just a product of my background.[/QUOTE]
Alright that's really fair. you still argued better than soundwave. all he had at the end was offering up a couple series where pippen got outplayed. Making conclusions from one series will always have issues just because of sample size.
Okay ewing outplayed him in 94, that's not necessarily enough to give him an edge. Horace outplayed pippen in 95 but statistically also outplayed penny his own better teammate, it doesnt mean he was more important to the magic than penny(lol at him calling penny just a 2nd year player).
Hate to pull out whataboutism since it's a lazy argument but if tpols wants to put so much emphasis on ewing vs pippen h2h, then his boy curry is in some trouble when it comes to lebron haha. I like curry too but unlike him, i'm not putting a much stock into a series as a h2h matchup especially when the two guys arent guarding each other.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE]Okay ewing outplayed him in 94, that's not necessarily enough to give him an edge. Horace outplayed pippen in 95 but statistically also outplayed penny his own better teammate[/QUOTE]
It also is a case where stats don't tell the story. Grant was literally left unguarded almost the entire series. Jackson's bet was Grant would choke under the pressure and he didn't want to leave shooters Anderson, Scott open when they doubled Shaq or Penny so Grant was the default choice in addition to Jackson thinking he wouldn't handle the pressure. The bet failed--Grant hit his shots but it wasn't a case where Grant was torching the defense.
Yeah, and if you use stats/game score Pippen outplayed Penny as well in 95' and 96' but you never see any of them ever say that about Pippen vs. Penny.
Ewing did have a better ECSF than Pippen in 94' but he also didn't face the same defense Pippen did. He scored on Cartwright/Longley while Pippen was facing a defense known to stifle perimeter stars.
It also ignores that Pippen outplayed Ewing in 91', 93'. It wasn't as if Ewing always got the better of Pippen. It is a recurring theme: they will never credit Pippen for having a better series than any other star.
[QUOTE]Hate to pull out whataboutism since it's a lazy argument but if tpols wants to put so much emphasis on ewing vs pippen h2h, then his boy curry is in some trouble when it comes to lebron haha. I like curry too but unlike him, i'm not putting a much stock into a series as a h2h matchup especially when the two guys arent guarding each other.[/QUOTE]
:lol using that logic Irving>Curry, right?
He is a hypocrite. He makes it all about 7 games against the #1 defense but whenever Miller, Stockton, Kobe having bad series comes up his excuse is they faced elite defenses. :oldlol:
It also shows how high a standard Pippen is held to. Pippen was 22/8/5 on 41% while leading his team in scoring, rebounding (Grant averaged only 6 as Oakley crushed him on the glass), assists, steals while ranking second in blocks and anchoring the defense. That is a letdown. Yet many of the same people (especially tpols) will hype Miller for going 17/2/2 on 42% in the 98' ECF.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14057220]
:lol using that logic Irving>Curry, right?
He is a hypocrite. He makes it all about 7 games against the #1 defense but whenever Miller, Stockton, Kobe having bad series comes up his excuse is they faced elite defenses. :oldlol:
It also shows how high a standard Pippen is held to. Pippen was 22/8/5 on 41% while leading his team in scoring, rebounding (Grant averaged only 6 as Oakley crushed him on the glass), assists, steals while ranking second in blocks and anchoring the defense. That is a letdown. Yet many of the same people (especially tpols) will hype Miller for going 17/2/2 on 42% in the 98' ECF.[/QUOTE]
yea some people hold pippen to a high standard for sure. I think you may be underrating miller though yes i'm not taking him over pippen all time or during the majority of seasons. I think taylor does overrate him a bit since he is so high on offball shooting and using screens to get open but very low on guys who handle all the time(besides lebron). Basically even if harden scored 35 and curry scored 25 next year good chance he has curry higher in the mvp race. still he has a solid point when it comes to offball scoring's value and it not even being in the box score.
When reggie comes off a screen and 2 defenders run at him and some big gets an open layup, he gets no assist credit though that play was mostly due to him. The impact numbers all grade out as strong offensively, better than his counterpart guards who got more awards. his cheap foul drawing is unlikable but elite almost harden level. a 40% ftr is absurd for someone who takes mostly spot ups, floaters, and pull ups and leads to elite efficiency; efficiency and foul rate carried over to the playoffs.
RS: 27.5pts/100 61.4ts% 40.4%ftr, PS: 30.5pts/100 60.1ts% 41.1%ftr
I'll add as an argument Larry Brown was notoriously bad as an offensive coach after like 1980. Some of his teams got significantly better offensively after he left like the pacers and pistons. Had some talent too like drob, iverson and the pistons big 4. He only coached two top ten offenses and that was the 95 and 96 pacers lead by miller on not particularly loaded teams. Even with his "low scoring" the pacers scared around 80ppg without him in 95. that seems like middle of the pack though i dont have the ppg in front of me so not elite production wise either.
Finally brown likely had a negative impact on miller's value because of how bad offensively he is. We saw how much better curry got after kerr replaced mark and even mj saw a clear improvement once phil replaced collins, that didnt all come from self improvement. The impact metrics bear it out according to Taylor. "In scaled adjusted plus-minus, his first seven seasons (1994-2000) are above the 75th percentile, with three seasons between the 93rd and 96th percentile." According to the graphs he posted his highest 3 seasons in apm were 98-00.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
My biggest issue with the PO talking point regarding Miller is his PO numbers are goosed by him being a 1st round monster (either as an underdog or overdog--94' was their only competitive 1st round series when they were the 5 seed). If Miller was the same player in the subsequent rounds I would come down on the side of a lot of the pro-Miller people but he wasn't. He went from something like 26 PPG in the 1st round to 22 in the ECSF and 21 in the ECF. (24 in the finals but only one series, not a legit sample there.)
If your calling card is scoring and in the biggest series you scoring is 21 PPG, that's a problem, no? Look at the Pippen threads. We see him dissed daily for scoring 19-20 PPG as a 2nd option. If 20 sucks as a 2nd, how can 21 be awesome for a 1st? "Efficiency"? That the 21 came on 14 shots and the 20 on 16 shots (some of the Pippen shots are end of quarter/end of shot clock bail outs...)? Really? Is that what it is all boiled down to? 21 on 14 versus 20 on 16? Those extra 2 Miller shots go to other (lesser) Indiana players. They don't disappear.
[QUOTE]his cheap foul drawing is unlikable but elite almost harden level. a 40% ftr is absurd for someone who takes mostly spot ups, floaters, and pull ups and leads to elite efficiency; efficiency and foul rate carried over to the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
True, but we know how he did that: he kicked the defender and the defender would be called for a foul. :lol
[QUOTE]RS: 27.5pts/100 61.4ts% 40.4%ftr, PS: 30.5pts/100 60.1ts% 41.1%ftr[/QUOTE]
Eh, no one actually plays 100 possessions so that doesn't tell me much. Smits' "per 100" number are better than Miller's. Smits' prime was shorter but let's compare their primes.
Smits 1994-1999: 32/13/3
Miller 1990-2000: 30/5/5
Miller 1990-1998: 31/5/5
If Miller is this offensive GOAT, why does he trail his teammate?
[QUOTE]"In scaled adjusted plus-minus, his first seven seasons (1994-2000) are above the 75th percentile, with three seasons between the 93rd and 96th percentile." According to the graphs he posted his highest 3 seasons in apm were 98-00.[/QUOTE]
All good--but he doesn't compare to the type of players he gets compared to on ISH. Even Taylor concedes Miller did not have a top 50 all-time peak--he has Miller as high as he does because Miller maintained a good level for a long time.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=juju151111;4011089]Good post. Top 25 and Goat defender.:cheers:[/QUOTE]
Top 20
:rockon:
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
Pippen in the 1991-93 nba finals put up better stats than kawhi and iggy in the 2014 and 2015 nba finals.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
.
[SIZE=3]If Paul George was bad for his performance against Denver, then how is Pippen good??[/SIZE]
[Indent][B]George 20' ECSF[/B]...........'..... 21.7... 5.4... 3.6... 58.7 ts
[B]Pippen 96-98' Playoffs[/B]...... 17.6... 7.4... 5.0... 50.0 ts[/Indent]
[SIZE=3]1st three-peat Pippen was only marginally better than PG's Denver performance[/SIZE]
[Indent][B]Pippen 91-93' Playoffs[/B]...... 20.0... 8.3... 6.0... 53.6 ts[/Indent]
[SIZE=3]Ultimately, Pippen had 2 decent playoff runs in his entire career (bolded below):[/SIZE]
[Indent]1988..... 10 ppg
1989..... 13 ppg
1990..... migraine choke cost bulls title
[B]1991..... solid
1992..... mostly solid[/B] (92' ecsf)
1993..... 2.0 bpm w/ lower PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade
1994..... choked vs Knicks (21.7 on 40%)
1995..... choked vs Magic (19 on 40%)
96-98'.... 17.6 on 41%
99-03'.... 14 on 41%[/iNDENT]
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14292925].
[SIZE=3]If Paul George was bad for his performance against Denver, then how is Pippen good??[/SIZE]
[Indent][B]George 20' ECSF[/B]...........'..... 21.7... 5.4... 3.6... 58.7 ts
[B]Pippen 96-98' Playoffs[/B]...... 17.6... 7.4... 5.0... 50.0 ts[/Indent]
[SIZE=3]1st three-peat Pippen was only marginally better than PG's Denver performance[/SIZE]
[Indent][B]Pippen 91-93' Playoffs[/B]...... 20.0... 8.3... 6.0... 53.6 ts[/Indent]
[SIZE=3]Ultimately, Pippen had 2 decent playoff runs in his entire career (bolded below):[/SIZE]
[Indent]1988..... 10 ppg
1989..... 13 ppg
1990..... migraine choke cost bulls title
[B]1991..... solid
1992..... mostly solid[/B] (92' ecsf)
1993..... 2.0 bpm w/ lower PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade
1994..... choked vs Knicks (21.7 on 40%)
1995..... choked vs Magic (19 on 40%)
96-98'.... 17.6 on 41%
99-03'.... 14 on 41%[/iNDENT][/QUOTE]
The average pace from 1996-1998 was ~85. The 2020 ECF were at 94.
So not only are there several extra possessions, but Pippen had a teammate who averaged 25 shots a game in this completely diminished pace. It's no wonder he didn't a) get enough shots and b) develop any sort of offensive rhythm because of it.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14292946]The average pace from 1996-1998 was ~85. The 2020 ECF were at 94.
So not only are there several extra possessions, but Pippen had a teammate who averaged 25 shots a game in this completely diminished pace. It's no wonder he didn't a) get enough shots and b) develop any sort of offensive rhythm because of it.[/QUOTE]
Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals - [B]you think he deserved MORE shots?[/B]
Pippen averaged 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs - [b]you think he deserved MORE shots?[/b]
Pippen averaged 50.0% true shooting in the 93' Playoffs including 45% in the Finals - [B]you think he deserved MORE shots?[/B]
Pippen isn't capable of more shots and the Bulls would lose if he did.
Ultimately, why do you keep talking about Jordan's shot volume when Pippen's peak capability is 22 and 5 apg, so he was clearly playing to capacity next to Jordan
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14292953]Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals - [B]you think he deserved MORE shots?[/B]
Pippen averaged 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs - [b]you think he deserved MORE shots?[/b]
Pippen averaged 50.0% true shooting in the 93' Playoffs including 45% in the Finals - [B]you think he deserved MORE shots?[/B]
Pippen isn't capable of more shots and the Bulls would lose if he did.
Ultimately, why do you keep talking about Jordan's shot volume when Pippen's peak capability is 22 and 5 apg, so he was clearly playing to capacity next to Jordan[/QUOTE]
Because you're comparing his numbers overall to George without context.
Pace means that by default, he would scored more. Not to mention more efficiently. Stop posting stats you know nothing about.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14293031]Because you're comparing his numbers overall to George without context.
Pace means that by default, he would scored more. Not to mention more efficiently. Stop posting stats you know nothing about.[/QUOTE]
The pace-adjusted numbers show the same thing - similar stats or worse for Pippen, except no one noticed for Pippen's poor play, while George was crucified.
No one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14293037]The pace-adjusted numbers show the same thing - similar stats or worse for Pippen, except no one noticed for Pippen's poor play, [B]while George was crucified.[/B]
No one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games[/QUOTE]
No, one insane loser Kawhi stan is attempting to make George the scapegoat. No one else cares about him.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14293045]No, one insane loser Kawhi stan is attempting to make George the scapegoat. No one else cares about him.[/QUOTE]
I watched every minute of the 96' Finals.
I was unaware that Pippen wet the bed until a few years ago when I looked it up, at which point I noticed how badly Pippen played in [U]many[/U] series that I'd watched.
Ultimately, no one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14293051]I watched every minute of the 96' Finals.
[B]I was unaware that Pippen wet the bed until a few years ago when I looked it up[/B], at which point I noticed how badly Pippen played in [U]many[/U] series that I'd watched.
Ultimately, No one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games[/QUOTE]
So about the same time you decided to use context-less scoring and fg% numbers to downplay him because people started talking about Lebron on the same plane as MJ.
When you watched the 96 finals you realized and appreciated Pippen's impact as an overall basketball player.
Lebron mania turned you against him.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14293056]So about the same time you decided to use context-less scoring and fg% numbers to downplay him because people started talking about Lebron on the same plane as MJ.
[B]When you watched the 96 finals you realized and appreciated Pippen's impact as an overall basketball player[/B].
Lebron mania turned you against him.[/QUOTE]
I never noticed Pippen or his performance anymore than Grant or Paxson, who were actually more notable because they routinely hit big shots down the stretch of tight games and Pippen almost never did.
Everyone understood that Pippen was once routinely bullied and his peak capability was about 20 ppg with zero clutch, so no one was waiting for a big performance from him.. Pippen was mostly ignored, except the occasional "let's do a pippen appreciation article or interview" where his glue guy/role player attributes were lionized
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14293037]The pace-adjusted numbers show the same thing - similar stats or worse for Pippen, except no one noticed for Pippen's poor play, while George was crucified.
No one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games[/QUOTE]
Show me the pace adjusted numbers for Pippen please.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14293065]Show me your pace adjusted number for Pippen pleass[/QUOTE]
Per 100 look it up yourself
17 ppg won't become better than 22 ppg I promise
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14293068]Per 100 look it up yourself
17 ppg won't become better than 22 ppg I promise[/QUOTE]
But you admit that Pips points do improve in a higher pace. Butbits not that simple. The game today is totally different from today's game. The 90s was much more slow, pound to your center, walk the ball up the court. As opposed to this more open pace that s of today that's much more conducive to Pips style
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14293193]But you admit that Pips points do improve in a higher pace. Butbits not that simple. The game today is totally different from today's game. The 90s was much more slow, pound to your center, walk the ball up the court. As opposed to this more open pace that s of today that's much more conducive to Pips style[/QUOTE]
Today's game requires shooters that can iso
Pippen can't do either and was nothing without the triangle
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14293216]Today's game requires shooters that can iso
Pippen can do neither and was nothing without the triangle[/QUOTE]
Giannis is the 2 time reigning MVP and he cant shoot, dribble, or post up. Hes just a great athlete.
Pippen was a great athlete himself. In todays league Pips easily a 25/10/8 guy.
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14293223]Giannis is the 2 time reigning MVP and he cant shoot, dribble, or post up.
Pippen was a great athlete himself. In todays league Pips easily a 25/10/8 guy.[/QUOTE]
Giannis is a great iso player
Pippen can't iso or shoot
He couldn't create his own shot or shoot and would therefore suck today
He was the poor man's Dwight Howard of forwards in pretty much every way
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Re: Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93
[QUOTE=3ball;14293226][B]Giannis is a great iso player
[/B]
Pippen can't iso or shoot
He couldn't create his own shot or shoot and would therefore suck today
He was the poor man's Dwight Howard of forwards in pretty much every way[/QUOTE]
Would he be a great ISO player with all of those packed paints you always tout?