Bill Russell Vertical Leap

I know that both Russell and Wilt had a great verticals but guys like Fresoblabla and Jlauber overrates their jump ability like crazy. Only an idiot would believe that Russell and Wilt had a vertical as good as or even better then Spud's..

Sure, Spud who had a 42 inch vertical looked like this when he dunked..

[IMG]http://farm1.staticflickr.com/12/70076175_a9ca44336b.jpg[/IMG]

And we are supposed to trust idiots who claim that Wilt and Russell had 45 inch verticals, haha.. Wilt even claimed he had a 50 inch vertical..:facepalm

It's even said that Wilt used to dunk his FT's in high school, and as usual we have visual evidence..

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]look at Chamberlain's head and shoulder in relation to the rim.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs[/url][/QUOTE]
That's a freakshow. :bowdown:

By the way, Jlauber and Fresblabla, what was Wilt's standing vertical?

PTB, what are you basing that on? Just a hunch?

Frescobaldi, it does look like his armpit is at rim level.

The still photos at the beginning are amazing too. They look photoshopped, I wonder if folks can find the originals.

[QUOTE]It's even said that Wilt used to dunk his FT's in high school, and as usual we have visual evidence..[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's "even" said this, as if a 7'1 guy with freakishly long arms would need a 40 or 50 inch vertical in order to perform this. :rolleyes: Samuel Dalembert, with nowhere near Wilt's speed almost pulled this off during a game and Toni Kukoc with nowhere near Wilt's length (and definitely not 40 inches of vertical) had no problems dunking from the FT line in a Croatian All Star competition (there exists UTube footage of this). But, knowing this, and having seen some more of Wilt's exploits, nope, we [B]still [/B]need hard photographic evidence for the extraordinary claim of achieving the apex of basketball athleticism, dunkng from the FT line...

[QUOTE]The still photos at the beginning are amazing too. They look photoshopped, I wonder if folks can find the originals.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what photos you're talking about, but if someone were to photoshop some photos of Wilt or Russell supposedly showing a 50-inch vertical, he'd do exactly this.
Some time ago, someone posted that photo of H.S Wilt playfully jumping over two bending teammates during some practice. Like half of the posters there believed that the photo was photoshopped because the shadows seemed somewhat weird (because, as seen by the crap told by conspiracy "geniuses" that believe Apollo 11 was a hoax, it's well known that humans have perfect perception of shadows...). Too bad the exact same image had appeared, among others, in a book older than any version of Photoshop/modern editing programs (I think it was "Tall Tales"). Yes, images could still be distorted back then, but you had to hire way more specialized people than nowadays, which would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Hire someone to distort some picture of Wilt, so that a bunch of nobodies in the future would not doubt about his abilities. Uh, OK. Hey, why only stay there, why not make up a few photos of Wilt dunking in 13-feet baskets too, then?

[QUOTE=Psileas]Yeah, it's "even" said this, as if a 7'1 guy with freakishly long arms would need a 40 or 50 inch vertical in order to perform this. :rolleyes: Samuel Dalembert, with nowhere near Wilt's speed almost pulled this off during a game and Toni Kukoc with nowhere near Wilt's length (and definitely not 40 inches of vertical) had no problems dunking from the FT line in a Croatian All Star competition (there exists UTube footage of this). But, knowing this, and having seen some more of Wilt's exploits, nope, we [B]still [/B]need hard photographic evidence for the extraordinary claim of achieving the apex of basketball athleticism, dunkng from the FT line...



I don't know what photos you're talking about, but if someone were to photoshop some photos of Wilt or Russell supposedly showing a 50-inch vertical, he'd do exactly this.
Some time ago, someone posted that photo of H.S Wilt playfully jumping over two bending teammates during some practice. Like half of the posters there believed that the photo was photoshopped because the shadows seemed somewhat weird (because, as seen by the crap told by conspiracy "geniuses" that believe Apollo 11 was a hoax, it's well known that humans have perfect perception of shadows...). Too bad the exact same image had appeared, among others, in a book older than any version of Photoshop/modern editing programs (I think it was "Tall Tales"). Yes, images could still be distorted back then, but you had to hire way more specialized people than nowadays, which would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Hire someone to distort some picture of Wilt, so that a bunch of nobodies in the future would not doubt about his abilities. Uh, OK. Hey, why only stay there, why not make up a few photos of Wilt dunking in 13-feet baskets too, then?[/QUOTE]

Psileas I think they are talking about the photos at the beginning of the footage of Chamberlain with his head and shoulder over the rim on blocked shot......

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi] *******************************************

Bumping an old thread.
It's interesting to read through this old board - people like kblaze for example, have an open mind, that it was at least possible for Chamberlain & Russell to have got to the top........ while most people flatly say it wasn't possible, or even stupid to say those guys could get anywhere close.

Really, skepticism has pretty much tipped over to cynicism.

But it is a fact that some game footage surfaced recently that shows a glimpse of Chamberlain's vertical:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs[/url]

Now all the pretty colors that guy painted on that clip is pretty much bullshite. And the angle of the camera is very deceptive.

Don't use the top of the backboard as reference in that Youtube clip - look at where he is in relation to the rim. You can clearly see that not only is Chamberlain's head above the rim, his shoulder is too. Basically his armpit is at rim level.

Given the fact that it would be 35" from the top of Chamberlain's 7'1&1/16" head to the 10' rim, that is at least a 42" vertical, and I suspect it is considerably more than that.

Given the fact that he was timing a blocked shot in a game, taking no step, and using his left or off hand for his reach........ he got mighty mighty close to the top in that old college footage.

I have little doubt that in a serious attempt to do his best vertical, he could have gotten higher than that - since his target here is not his highest leap, but the ball.[/QUOTE]
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I re-posted this interesting old thread due to the new footage which showed up on Youtube here in the last couple of months.

{Unfortunately I'm kinda glad jlauber ain't around because I see one of my blocked users is on here....... probably spewing more alkali about jlauber's long posts.}

Anyhow it looks like the unending rants about [B]no-footage-it-didn't-happen[/B] just don't have legs anymore

[QUOTE=Psileas]Yeah, it's "even" said this, as if a 7'1 guy with freakishly long arms would need a 40 or 50 inch vertical in order to perform this. :rolleyes: Samuel Dalembert, with nowhere near Wilt's speed almost pulled this off during a game and Toni Kukoc with nowhere near Wilt's length (and definitely not 40 inches of vertical) had no problems dunking from the FT line in a Croatian All Star competition (there exists UTube footage of this). But, knowing this, and having seen some more of Wilt's exploits, nope, we [B]still [/B]need hard photographic evidence for the extraordinary claim of achieving the apex of basketball athleticism, dunkng from the FT line...

[/QUOTE]

Psileas, you're not like these obsessed fan boys you do know you have my respect and I think you know what I'm talking about.

Apparently Wilt could dunk from the FT-line without a running start, he only needed to take two steps inside the circle and then he would fly to the basket. That is the biggest pile of crap ever said about Wilt and it's an obvious lie..

And stuff like Wilt having a 50 inch vertical like he himself said, seriously? 50 inch vertical? Spud who's pic I posted earlier in this thread had a 42 inch vertical and no way Wilt was any close to to that..

And Le Frescobaldi or whatever your name is, please tell us about Wilt's standing vertical....

Russell may have a bigger vert than Wilt. Both were around 35-40 at max on a good day.

[QUOTE=millwad]Psileas, you're not like these obsessed fan boys you do know you have my respect and I think you know what I'm talking about.

Apparently Wilt could dunk from the FT-line without a running start, he only needed to take two steps inside the circle and then he would fly to the basket. That is the biggest pile of crap ever said about Wilt and it's an obvious lie..

And stuff like Wilt having a 50 inch vertical like he himself said, seriously? 50 inch vertical? Spud who's pic I posted earlier in this thread had a 42 inch vertical and no way Wilt was any close to to that..

And Le Frescobaldi or whatever your name is, please tell us about Wilt's standing vertical....[/QUOTE]

I didn't say without a running start. This was the deal that changed the rules after all. You could take a few steps and then step from the line and shoot. FYI, it takes definitely less than a full court for a great athlete to acquire like 90% of his full speed and take off. I don't know how many steps Wilt would need, but I would be surprised if he couldn't do it.

Wilt didn't have 50 inches of vertical and no big man ever did - I'd love to know otherwise.
Spud Webb, as far as I've heard, was closer to 45-46 inches.

[QUOTE=Psileas]I didn't say without a running start. This was the deal that changed the rules after all. You could take a few steps and then step from the line and shoot. FYI, it takes definitely less than a full court for a great athlete to acquire like 90% of his full speed and take off. I don't know how many steps Wilt would need, but I would be surprised if he couldn't do it.

Wilt didn't have 50 inches of vertical and no big man ever did - I'd love to know otherwise.
Spud Webb, as far as I've heard, was closer to 45-46 inches.[/QUOTE]

Even Spud's own website says that he had a 42 inch vertical so I know I can trust that and it's safe to say that he had a higher vert then Wilt, no doubt..

Source: [url]http://www.spudwebb.net/[/url]

And regarding Wilt's free throw dunks, I am talking about the nonsense that he didn't need a running start to dunk from the FT-line and that he only needed to take 2 small steps before flying to the basket.. I am not talking about a running start.

And honestly, I couldn't trust them quotes any less then what I do now. Too many tall tales from Wilt himself and his peers.. A 50 inch vertical, the guy could dunk from the FT-line without a running start, once he dunked a basketball so hard that a player broke his foot/toe (sure..) etc..

So many myths and quotes and if Wilt could make up stuff like a 50 inch vertical I'm sure some people exaggerated alot when it came to other stuff about Wilt as well..

No one denies the fact the he was a great jumper, and so was Bill Russell but all this nonsense about their verts is just rubbish..

In that case both Russell and Wilt had a higher vertical than Stefan Holm, one of the greatest high jumpers of all time; [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZ3ZcorTF0[/url]

They don't have an NBA Pre Draft Camp in the 1960's.

The "anti-Chamberlain" clan has been spewing NONSENSE about Wilt for the last several years on this forum. FORTUNATELY we are getting more-and-more VIDEO FOOTAGE which just DESTROYS their trash.

I firmly believe that no other legitimate NBA player has ever had a higher REACH than Chamberlain. In the past few months the VIDEO footage was released in which a Chamberlain, without benefit of a running start, (and in fact almost a flat-footed straight up leap), blocks a shot in which it is clear that his fingertips are near the top of the backboard. Keep in mind, that Wilt had also been running up-and-down the floor (as he ALWAYS did), and dominating at BOTH ends (as he ALWAYS did.)

Of course, this substantiates what a Philly sports legend Sonny Hill claimed long ago...that he witnessed Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard. BTW, long time Sixer trainer Al Domenico also claimed to have witnessed it, as well. In fact, it was fairly common knowledge among NBA players that Wilt was capable of that exact feat.

The "Wilt-bashers" also constantly scoffed at the idea that Wilt, with a few short steps, could dunk a FT. Impossible they claimed. YET, none other than TEX WINTER, and in a VIDEO conversation, claims to have witnessed it. In fact, because of Wilt's KNOWN ability to accomplish that EXACT feat, the ruling bodies in BOTH the NBA and NCAA banned the dunking of FTs.

It was also WELL-KNOWN that Chamberlain was dunking on a 12 FT. RIM. His COACH even rolled out that rim while Wilt was at Kansas. Now, judging the VIDEO of Wilt, going straight up, without benefit of a running start, and nearly reaching the top of the backboard...is there any DOUBT that Wilt could EASILY have dunked on a 12 ft rim???

VIDEO FOOTAGE? There is footage of a game against the Bulls in the '71 playoffs, in which Wilt, again, going straight up, and with only a split second to react, blocks a shot, in which it CLEARLY shows Wilt's fingertips at the top of the square, and close to the 12 ft. mark. So what you ask? This was a Wilt, playing every minute of every game in that series, and running up-and-down the floor, and dominating at BOTH ends of the court. Furthermore, this was a 34 year old Wilt, playing with arthritis in one knee, and the other knee a year removed from MAJOR knee surgery, and...at over 300 lbs.

THAT Wilt, with a straight-up, split second leap, could reach the 12 ft. mark. And, at all of these combines throughout the years, we have GREAT leapers struggling to get to the 12'-6" mark. And yet a 34 year old Wilt, at over 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee, with a straight-up leap, could nearly accomplish THAT same feat.

Of course, the same "anti-Chamberlain" clan disputed that a 35 year old Wilt was ROUTINELY knocking Kareem's "unblockable" sky hook all over the gym. Guess what, we got VIDEO footage of Chamberlain not only blocking ONE sky-hook, he did it TWICE, and within about FIVE SECONDS of each other. Of course, those that witnessed the Kareem-Wilt battles would attest to the fact that Chamberlain blocking Kareem's skyhook was a common feat.

Then the "Wilt-doubters" ripped those that claimed that Wilt didn't have an outside shot. Yes, we had a HOF COACH claiming that Wilt came into the league with a GOOD OUTSIDE shot, BUT, the "Chamberlain-bashers" demanded more. They wanted VIDEO FOOTAGE. Well, low-and-behold, VIDEO FOOTAGE of MINUTES of SINGLE games surfaced, especially while he was at Kansas...and guess what???...here was Wilt REPEATEDLY hitting 15+ shots, 15+ bank shots, even 15+ ft. JUMP SHOTS, and from a variety of locations.

Then with what little the "anti-Wilt" clan had left...they argued that Wilt never faced the defenses that the "modern" centers faced. Of course, I produced a TON of articles, even by CELTIC writers, and using quotes from CELTIC players, in which they claimed that not only was Wilt doubled, he was often tripled, or even swarmed, AND ABUSED. We also have a VIDEO conversation in which Chamberlain claimed that he was doubled and tripled, and THEN Russell was guardiing him on top of that...and guess what??? Russell was sitting right next to Wilt when he made that claim. And not a peep out Bill, either.

Of course, one poster produced a quarter, of a half, of a game in the '64 Finals, in which Wilt had several shots against single coverage. I responded by posting the second quarter, of that half, of that SAME game, in which Wilt was DOUBLED, or TRIPLED, or even SWARMED on nearly EVERY possession down the floor.

As for some of these other "anti-Wilt" claims. That he couldn't possibly bench 500+ lbs. Well, we have an SI article in 1964, and long before Wilt reached anywhere near his maximum size and strength, in which Wilt was already benching 425 lbs. We also have an EYE-WITNESS account, and on tape, in which the interviewee claims to have witnessed Chamberlain benching 465 lbs...at age 59!

In Robert Cherry's book, he interviewed a well-known weight lifter, who was 6-5 and 250 lbs, and who was known to have benched well over 500 lbs, who had worked out with Wilt, and who claimed that Wilt was the strongest man he ever met.

Of course, you could just ASK any of the players who actually played with and against Wilt in his career, and to a man, they would claim that he was the strongest player they ever faced, and many would say that there has not been anyone since as strong.

There is an interview by Howard Cosell, with both Mohammed Ali and Wilt, in which Cosell claims that Wilt was among the strongest athletes in the WORLD.

Here again, just GOOGLE Wilt's Bench-press, or his strength, or his vertical, or even his speed...the internet is PLASTERED with incredible stories of Chamberlain's awesome physical feats.

I have also long asked this question...Chamberlain played with, and against, DOZENS of coachs in his career. He was covered by DOZENS of members of the media (probably hundreds.) He played with, and against, HUNDREDS (if not thousands) of players (both in college and the pros.) And there were hundreds of thousands who SAW Chamberlain PLAY.

Now, if all of these staggering physical accomplishments were NOT true, why has there not been ONE LEGITIMATE person come forth, and DISPUTE them? If Wilt couldn't bench 500 lbs, don't you think that SOMEONE would have stepped up and DISPUTED it? Same with his freakish leaps. If Wilt couldn't touch the top of the backboard, don't you think that some teammate might have witnessed Chamberlain trying, and failing, and coming forth to DISPUTE it?

Nope...we have DOZENS, HUNDREDS, even THOUSANDS of first-hand accounts of Chamberlain's amazing physical feats, and virtually NONE that DISPUTE them.

Of course, as more and more information comes forth, we are finding out that all of those accounts were right on.

Furthermore, the "Wilt-detractors", who have been spewing LIES about Chamberlain are being exposed as more-and-more information, and VIDEO footage becomes available. This NONSENSE that Wilt was a "stats-padding", "loser" who "choked" in his biggest games has been BLOWN to shreds.

If anything, the more that comes out, the more affirmation we have that Wilt was on a planet of his own, and that there has never been another basketball player, or even an athlete, like him since. Many of those so-called "myths" are now becoming documented FACTS.

[QUOTE=OmniStrife]How can OP and his kind always miss this logic is beyond me.

Sure, there's no footage of these feats, or attempts at them.

[SIZE="3"][B]However there is plenty of other footage of Wilt / Russel playing ball...

[U]NOTHING[/U] in that footage could EVEN HINT at them topping today's above average athletes in verticals, or what not.
[/B][/SIZE]

[B]Then I get reminded of how Wilt supposedly had sex with 10,000 mountain lions,
or how he tossed a woman by her tail...
(or was it the other way around??)[/B]



...And I realize that logic has nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]


Like this logic...

The world's LONG JUMP record is currently at 29' 4"...which was set [B]20[/B] years ago. Oh, and the PREVIOUS record? 29' 2", which was set in [B]1968[/B]...or about in the middle of Chamberlain's NBA career.

So, since 1968, we have seen the long jump mark broken, 20 years ago, with a leap that was [B]2"[/B] longer than in 1968.

[QUOTE=Pushxx]I repped you, La Frescobaldi. Great link, man.

I'm in Kblaze's camp: it seems feasible, and I'm more inclined to believe it's possible given what other top leapers have accomplished related to the feat.[/QUOTE]

What I hate about all this kind of thread is, there's not any footage (that I know of) showing what Bill Russell could do.

People scoff about Chamberlain - well they can shut up now, because there's proof (although even when they see the footage they deny it... ). But there's no footage like that of Russell.

Who knows though, maybe something like what we found on Chamberlain will show up.

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I was never a Russell fan. He was a cold, distant, arrogant dude. He wore a black cape and he really seemed kind of sinister. If he looked at us teenagers at all, standing around out on the street before the game... it was a stony eyed hawk's stare that wasn't ever going to bring him any friends.

When the teams ran out on the court... Russell didn't. He walked, slowly, and he had an air of just [B]arrogance[/B] - man you could almost get a whiff of egomania in the air. This is me looking back now of course... back then all I knew was just here was some bad kinda @ss.

Well some guys just exude charisma, & other guys are like a energy beam. Know what I mean? When Jordan ran on the court there was an air about him, that undefineable, charismatic aura - [I]His Airness[/I]!!

Well, Wilt had a regal air, like a duke you might see in England. Sometimes and especially as a Laker, Chamberlain had a [I]majesty[/I] that just made you look and look, almost like, where's his sceptre?

Or Shaq with his fantasmagorphic gigantism but yet you can still see the joyful little kid twinkle in his eye from a mile away

*************************************

Not Russell.
Russell was just [I]Confidence[/I], in its purest, distilled form - like raw spirits that you can't taste without your entire mouth head lungs going right on fire.

Every inch of Russell said - "My team is here to destroy your hopes and dreams, and there is nothing. NOTHING. Anyone in this arena can do about it."

Not a likeable persona you understand.

But lemme tell you, dude was a serious talent on a basketball court.

********************************

I never saw Russell in his great days, the early 60s. Chamberlain tore him apart every time I saw them match up.

But one thing I noticed different about Russell from any other player I ever saw.
Kareem would get furious if he got smoked; he would even start swinging at guys - like a matchstick version of Bob Lanier or Bill LameButtocks.... and if Chamberlain got smoked, he'd [B]demand[/B] the ball on the left block for the next play or two so he could smash it down their face. Jordan too, and Bird - you could see the cold fury in their face and they'd go out and destroy the other team.

Not Russell. His game never changed whether Boston was down by 40 or up by 40. He didn't care, at all, that he was being destroyed. He was coming after you just the same. It affected him not one single iota.

And that, more than [I]anything else[/I], to me, is what made Bill Russell great.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Like this logic...

The world's LONG JUMP record is currently at 29' 4"...which was set [B]20[/B] years ago. Oh, and the PREVIOUS record? 29' 2", which was set in [B]1968[/B]...or about in the middle of Chamberlain's NBA career.

So, since 1968, we have seen the long jump mark broken, 20 years ago, with a leap that was [B]2"[/B] longer than in 1968.[/QUOTE]

The difference?

We actually have video proof of Bob Beamon's record; [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEt_Xgg8dzc[/url]

We don't have any visual proof at all of Wilt having anything close to a 50 inch vertical (like Wilt claimed he had) or even 45 inch vertical, that means that he would had to have a better vertical then Spud who had a 42 inch vertical which Wilt really wasn't anywhere close to by the video "proof" we've seen. The only "proof" we have is a video of Wilt blocking a shot from a terrible and misleading angle..

And considering his other tall tales I believe in many of those myths just as little as I believe that he had a 50 inch vert..

If Wilt would have the vertical you guys claim, then he would have a better vertical then Stefan Holm which is just a pathetic statement;
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L28NyIquzIQ[/url]

And still no answer about Wilt's standing vertical..

[QUOTE=millwad]The difference?

We actually have video proof of Bob Beamon's record; [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEt_Xgg8dzc[/url]

We don't have any visual proof at all of Wilt having anything close to a 50 inch vertical (like Wilt claimed he had) or even 45 inch vertical, that means that he would had to have a better vertical then Spud who had a 42 inch vertical which Wilt really wasn't anywhere close to by the video "proof" we've seen. The only "proof" we have is a video of Wilt blocking a shot from a terrible and misleading angle..

And considering his other tall tales I believe in many of those myths just as little as I believe that he had a 50 inch vert..

If Wilt would have the vertical you guys claim, then he would have a better vertical then Stefan Holm which is just a pathetic statement;
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L28NyIquzIQ[/url]

And still no answer about Wilt's standing vertical..[/QUOTE]

I could not care less what Wilt's vertical was. However, I stand by my statement that no other legitimate NBA player ever REACHED the heights that Chamberlain did. We have VIDEO footage with his fingertips within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard...on a leap in which he went straight up, and with little time to react.

We have EYE-WITNESS accounts of Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard. Wilt's coach at KU rolled out a 12 ft. hoop and we have claims that Wilt was dunking on it. We have Tex Winter being stunned when he witnessed a high-school Chamberlain dunking FTs with only a couple of steps (and subsequently, the NCAA and NBA banned that "freakish" activity.)

We have VIDEO footage of a 35 year old Wilt, at over 300 lbs., and on a surgically repaired knee blocking TWO of a phyically PRIME Kareem's "unblockable" skyhooks, and within a matter of seconds.


We KNOW that Wilt won HIGH-JUMP championships (and he did so PART-TIME, and in one case, the nest morning after a brutal basketball game the night before.) We KNOW that Chamberlain was a LONG-JUMPER, and a TRIPLE-JUMPER at Kansas (among his several events.) We also KNOW that he was nearly 7-2 (some would claim he was taller than that), with a MEASURED 7-8 wingspan, and huge hands.

And once again...so MANY claims and eye-witness accounts of Chamberlain's amazing physical feats, and yes, even VIDEO footage of some of them, and yet, not ONE LEGITIMATE source that was around in the Wilt-era has come forth to DISPUTE any of them.

[QUOTE=millwad]Psileas, you're not like these obsessed fan boys you do know you have my respect[/QUOTE]

You do know that no one wants wants your respect or respects you right?

:roll:

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]PTB, what are you basing that on? Just a hunch?[/QUOTE]

Just assuming..

They were truly great leapers. There weren't measurements back in the day for vertical jump... Russell and Wilt demonstrated a great vertical jump when they blocked shots.

It probably doesn't sound reasonable.. but i think that they were great leapers overall.

[QUOTE=Psileas]I didn't say without a running start. This was the deal that changed the rules after all. You could take a few steps and then step from the line and shoot. FYI, it takes definitely less than a full court for a great athlete to acquire like 90% of his full speed and take off. I don't know how many steps Wilt would need, but I would be surprised if he couldn't do it.

Wilt didn't have 50 inches of vertical and no big man ever did - I'd love to know otherwise.
Spud Webb, as far as I've heard, was closer to 45-46 inches.[/QUOTE]

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Tex Winter was the guy who got the rule for free-throws changed. He talks about it in this Youtube clip. Conversation about No. 13 starts about 3:15, and Tex talking about going to Kansas Universtiy and watching Wilt Chamberlain dunking his free throws starts about 3:50 in the interview.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyz-FhP2ONk[/url]

************************************

Psileas ~~ you rock the boards and even though I don't agree with all of them I want you to know your posts are appreciated by this old geezer.

[QUOTE=plowking]That's cool and all, but no, he couldn't.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc[/url]

moron.

For a guy to have his eyes ABOVE the rim means having your scalp about 7 inches above the 10 foot rim... and if you are 6'9" while doing so we are looking at around a 46" inch vertical.... didnt know Russell was that kindof an athlete lol

I realize that the burden of proof is a bit hard on those that believe Russell in this case because there's little video of anything that went on in the earlier eras of the NBA, but I have to cautiously side with the other side.

There's just too much room for doubt in a case where the main evidence comes from Russell himself. I can easily see him exaggerating (even if its only slightly) and that puts the entire statement at doubt.

It's not that I think athletes now are universally better than athletes then, or that I doubt Russell's own athletic prowess. In fact, I think the great athletes of today are no better than those of Russell's era (though I might lean towards saying the league is more deep athletically i.e. the 12th man now is more athletic than the 12th man then). And with all the incentive to demonstrate this ability today, and all forms of social media to capture and advertise it, no one has done it.

Extrapolating from Russell's height and vert and standing reach is enough to say it MAY have been possible for him to do it, but it doesn't prove anything. That's asking for too much faith on my part, and I just can't make that leap without more evidence from a non-biased source than can explain where and how they got the information and how it's accurate. Any old article won't cut it. And a statement from Russell or other old-timers isn't sufficient for me either.


inb4 Someone posts CavsFan's gif of Russell jumping over that dude. That's raw, but it doesn't prove his claim here.

If he was the 7th best high jumper in the world then why is that so hard to believe? Contrary to popular belief the best jumpers in the world are, who would've thought, high jumpers and not NBA or And1 players.

[QUOTE=Floppy]If he was the 7th best high jumper in the world then why is that so hard to believe? Contrary to popular belief the best jumpers in the world are, who would've thought, high jumpers and not NBA or And1 players.[/QUOTE]

Does anyone know how closely the high jump and vertical leap are related? Clearly the high jump requires a much finer technique and mastery of mechanics to pull off than a simple vertical.

I'm sure there's a general trend (i.e. they both fall and rise together), but how much statistical predictive power does the high jump have on the vertical, and vice versa?

It doesn't strike me as obvious that because Russell could high jump that he could touch the backboard or get his eyes above the rim.

[QUOTE=Djahjaga]Does anyone know how closely the high jump and vertical leap are related? Clearly the high jump requires a much finer technique and mastery of mechanics to pull off than a simple vertical.

I'm sure there's a general trend (i.e. they both fall and rise together), but how much statistical predictive power does the high jump have on the vertical, and vice versa?

It doesn't strike me as obvious that because Russell could high jump that he could touch the backboard or get his eyes above the rim.[/QUOTE]
Bill Russell had awful technique though, he got by on raw athleticism and tied the Gold Medalist of the 1956 Olympics in a summer meet in the months coming up to the Olympics. Bill Russell was literally world class with his athleticism - we're not talking about above average - we're talking a top 10 World Class leaper on the planet in his day. His 6-9 and 1/4" PR (again on crude raw athleticism with terrible jumping form) would have been good enough to tie for a Bronze Medal in the Olympic field that year. He was expected to clear 7 feet if he'd worked at it as his discipline - IE match the world record. In the pre-fosbury flop days those numbers are huge.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Bill Russell had awful technique though, he got by on raw athleticism and tied the Gold Medalist of the 1956 Olympics in a summer meet in the months coming up to the Olympics. Bill Russell was literally world class with his athleticism - we're not talking about above average - we're talking a top 10 World Class leaper on the planet in his day. His 6-9 and 1/4" PR (again on crude raw athleticism with terrible jumping form) would have been good enough to tie for a Bronze Medal in the Olympic field that year. He was expected to clear 7 feet if he'd worked at it as his discipline - IE match the world record. In the pre-fosbury flop days those numbers are huge.[/QUOTE]

Bad technique or not, it seems to me it requires a different kind of skill than just pure, upward vertical. You need to be agile and able to contort your body, even if your technique blows. These are things I couldn't imagine doing even at the tamest of heights, and Russell was clearly naturally talented at these at least to a degree.

I do understand your point about the Fosbury Flop, so I won't make you repeat that for the trillionth time haha I feel like people are just skipping over that...

This is simply another case of people exaggerating the talents of legends from the past. They want their heroes to seem like mythical figures, so they believe a bunch of ridiculous claims about them.

It's no different than people saying little 135 pound Bruce Lee would destroy Muhammad Ali and saying he is so fast that he could snatch a quarter from somebody's open palm and leave a penny behind. It's all fantasy to make their heroes seem like super heroes.

It's all non-sense.

[QUOTE=pauk]For a guy to have his eyes ABOVE the rim means having your scalp about 7 inches above the 10 foot rim... and if you are 6'9" while doing so we are looking at around a 46" inch vertical.... didnt know Russell was that kindof an athlete lol[/QUOTE]

I was about to note that Russell was a bit taller when he played in the NBA (6'10" stockings height is a number I've seen cited a lot, so he'd be closer to 6'11" effective playing height), though in 'Second Wind' he notes that he first looked down on the rim earlier on in his playing days (I forget if it was during high school, his time with that traveling all-star team after graduating, or early in college). I'm not sure if he'd need his scalp to be 7 inches above the rim, since he didn't necessarily have to be looking down at the basket, just slightly above eye level with the rim, which means he probably only needed his scalp to clear by around 3-4 inches (or maybe I'm wrong...again it depends how big his head is, maybe someone can find a good photo to ascertain this). I think it's safe to say he was without question over 40", but 46" (while it wouldn't shock me) is probably a tiny bit high IMO.

Of course, I'm sure CavsFTW will have some great highlights in his new video which will help us get a better idea of where he stood. Either way, it's nice to have discussions of Russ on this board.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=PHILA][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f_gVh9h9Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f_gVh9h9Q[/URL]

1:08 mark

[I]"My vertical was I could get my eyes above the rim. When I jumped up straight I could get my eyes above the rim & I could touch the top of the backboard."[/I][/QUOTE]
I can get my eyes above the rim too, without jumping. What I do is, just look at the top of the backboard, and my eyes are over the level of the rim.

[IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/8f/9b/0d/8f9b0d650874dce91ae99c1dd1fbadbb.jpg[/IMG]

That's around between 37-40 inches . I think he's max vertical 41 .

to realize that westbrook is far shorter and has a poverty 36.5 inch vertical yet everyone claims athletes are far better today. LMAO

[QUOTE=theaussieguy]to realize that westbrook is far shorter and has a poverty 36.5 inch vertical yet everyone claims athletes are far better today. LMAO[/QUOTE]

True.

But Wilt and Bill are rare cause their athleticism coming from their athletic backgrounds . An example ; Elgin Baylor is a good athlete from 60's but as good as Westbrook,Kobe,Shaq etc. .

How much do they weigh Plowking? How can you not factor this in, YOU LIFT!? :lol


:cheers:


[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I dont think you have one bit of evidence saying he cant...other than you not thinking he could. Is it an impossibly high jump? No. Travis Outlaw is shorter than Russell and ive seen him riiiiiiight there just short of the top of the backboard in the one attempt ive seen him make to get there.

And I think we often forget something on these things. We are talking about 1955 or so. All NBA rims/boackboards were not the same until well into the 60s. They were pretty close but there are stories of coaches having them tested all the time because they looked off. They didnt have the same accuracy they do now. And thats in the NBA. You think every middle school, high school, college, and playground backboard met current NBA regulation height? I dont.

If at some point in their lives they ran into a goal that would have them only need to go up...46 inches or so? I have no problems accepting that legit world class high jumpers could do it. I dont think so many people are just fabricating it.

Besides its a 48 inch jump for most bigmen and its not like there arent guys known to get that high. NBA.com listen Mcdyess one step vertical at 47 inches for years due to a test a lot of people are supposed to have watched. And even with every moment of his career on high quality tape ive never seen him get nearly that high. I doubt ive seen him get 40 inches in a game.

Doesnt mean he never did. Legit proven world class high jumpers getting into the upper 40s is not one bit shocking to me even if its 1955. The foot difference in the high jump isnt due to evolution asm uch as how they teach them to jump. Ive seen Russell jump forward and clear like 6'8''. You will never see anyone jumping like that these days because you just dont jump as high. Guys Bill jumped with and against beating at times reached 7 feet and up as time went.

Touching the top of the backboard is no doubt often a myth but there are some easier to believe than others. A 215-220(entering the NBA he was skinny) 6'10.5'' in shoes world class high jumper with long arms?

Ive only seen like 3 people attempt it on film. And 2 of them(Outlaw and James white) were almost there and both were shorter than Bill. Am I to believe that they got the highest in world history in the 4 total attempts I saw them make?

Of course not. And if I assume someone got higher...why wouldnt I assume someone bigger than them who was the #2 ranked high jumper in America wasnt one of them 1-2 times? Or that he never ran into a backboard 2 inches off in a gym in Alabama working out?

[B]I dont think ill just assume hes lying because I didnt see it. World class 6-10 and 7-1 high jumpers should be on the short list of people given the benefit of the doubt if there are a gang of people saying they could reach heights that are well within the human potential to reach.[/B][/QUOTE]


I don't agree with every post this guy makes but I swear he's one of the most sensible/unbiased posters on this board


[IMG]https://jugones.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/1k.jpg[/IMG]


Lets say Russell is 6'10, 225, with a 9'3 standing reach, the same as dwight
He'd need a 9 Inch vertical leap to touch the rim and 15 Inch leap to dunk considering that you have to jump about 6 inches over the rim to dunk. To accomplish that you have to leave the ground at a speed of 2.73 m/s vertically no matter how much you weigh. You need a force of 2383 Newtons (535.72 pounds of force)against the ground based on your weight to reach that speed assuming you bent your knees at an angle of 60 degrees. The force depends on how much you bent your knees.

Shaq at 7'0, 300, with a 9'5 standing reach
He'd need a 7 Inch vertical leap to touch the rim and 13 Inch leap to dunk considering that you have to jump about 6 inches over the rim to dunk. To accomplish that you have to leave the ground at a speed of 2.54 m/s vertically no matter how much you weigh. You need a force of 2670 Newtons(600.24 pounds of force) against the ground based on your weight to reach that speed assuming you bent your knees at an angle of 60 degrees. The force depends on how much you bent your knees.


Would I say Russell geting a bit higher is more impressive? No, the fact Shaq could get that high at that weight is [B][U][I]spooky[/I][/U][/B] as ***. But to just outright dismiss that someone a lot lighter, with a standing reach just a tad shorter couldn't possibly jump higher is....Silly