Would Bulls fans trade Derrick Rose for LeBron James if they had the chance?

[QUOTE=tpols]Nah.. Wade's TS is considerably higher right now. And rightfully so. He is more efficient.

In their last couple playoff runs they have comparable efficiencies(TS) and rightfully so because kobe is a better 3pt shooter, and foul shooter than wade. If the players put the same amount of points on the board and they took up the same amount of their TEAM'S possessions to get those points than by the rawest measure of efficiency they were equal. It's literally the webster textbook definition. Ratio of work done/time allotted=Points/possessions to get points.

Just because you look at a 3pt shooter as having more misses being worse overall doesn't mean the literal definition of the word efficiency can be changed. There are positives and negatives to a player shooting more threes and as I stated before, one of them is that 3pt shooters routinely change the momentum of games as much as a spectacular break away crowd roaring dunk.

You're basically just giving us your opinion on what you think of extra misses..[/QUOTE]

Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.

Efficiency is raw data....not manipulated data. True Shooting estimates the things you are talking about and manipulates raw data. At times, it can be very accurate....other times, it can be a poor representation of scoring efficiency based on its formula as seen above.

Do you think a .3% difference is in reality indicative of the scoring efficiency of Lebron and Jordan?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.[/QUOTE]
No it's just reflecting that lebron takes way more threes than jordan.:oldlol: How do you not see this?

The reason lebron's FG is below jordans is EXACTLY because he takes triple the amount of threes, but he hits them at a rate of 50%eFG which is equal to 50%FG is terms of points scored per possesion(TS).. which is why his TS is comparable.

Compare the eFGs gino.. I haven't seen them but I bet you they're identical. I guess that stat means nothing too then.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.[/QUOTE]
You're not accounting for volume at all though. Lebron shot more 3s (2x+ as many) at a similar percentage and got to the line at a better rate. If you want to make it more simple then Jordan scored 30 on 23 shots, Lebron 28 on 20 shots. Of course, if you compare them you have to factor in perimeter rules which help players get to the line more.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Just look at Lebron and Jordan for example.

Jordan shot 49.7% for his career. Lebron is at 47.9% for his career.
Jordan shot 83.5% from the ft line. Lebron shoots 74.4% from the ft line.
Jordan shot 32.7% from 3. Lebron shoots 32.9% from 3.

Lebron misses more shots overall to get his points and shoots 9% worse from the ft line.

True shooting?

Jordan 56.9%
Lebron 56.6%

Sorry, it doesn't add up. A .3% difference just does not do the reality of efficiency of each player justice. Its rewarding Lebron for jacking up a lot more threes.

Looking at all the raw data is much better than True Shooting.[/QUOTE]
Well, that just tells you what kind of help the GOAT had back then. Lebron has not the same help.

Harper
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Longley

is so much better than

Mo
Parker
Lebron
Jamison
38 year old Shaq

[QUOTE=tpols]No it's just reflecting that lebron takes way more threes than jordan.:oldlol: How do you not see this?

The reason lebron's FG is below jordans is EXACTLY because he takes triple the amount of threes, but he hits them at a rate of 50%eFG which is equal to 50%FG is terms of points scored per possesion(TS).. which is why his TS is comparable.

Compare the eFGs gino.. I haven't seen them but I bet you they're identical. I guess that stat means nothing too then.[/QUOTE]

You can't ignore the raw data. Jesus Christ. how do you not see this?

You keep saying its an opinion. Its not an opinion. You aren't using anything but an estimation that manipulates the raw data. Its your opinion of what efficiency actually is. Mine is different.

So we have Jordan making a higher percentage of field goals (counts every shot 2s and 3s) and shooting 9% better from the the ft line yet his TS percentage is virtually identical.

That is simply not accurate enough of true efficiency.

And yup.. just looked it up and lebron's eFG is higher for his career than jordan's.

Lebron's 2pt percentage is actually the SAME as jordan's. What lowers lebron's FG% is that he takes more threes and FG% desn't account for the fact that 3pointers are worth 50% more than 2pointers. It's unadjusted. When you adjust it, you see that lebron is actually MORE efficient for his career from the field than jordan. It's undebatable.

The reason jordan has a higher TS despite having a lower eFG is because jordan was a much better free throw shooter.. so these stats actually reflect reality perfectly.:oldlol:

[QUOTE=chazzy]You're not accounting for volume at all though. Lebron shot more 3s (2x+ as many) at a similar percentage and got to the line at a better rate. If you want to make it more simple then Jordan scored 30 on 23 shots, Lebron 28 on 20 shots. Of course, if you compare them you have to factor in perimeter rules which help players get to the line more.[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point. Thank you. Taking a bunch of threes is highly valued by True Shooting.

Therefore its not as accurate as the raw data.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You can't ignore the raw data. Jesus Christ. how do you not see this?

You keep saying its an opinion. Its not an opinion. You aren't using anything but an estimation that manipulates the raw data. Its your opinion of what efficiency actually is. Mine is different.

So we have Jordan making a higher percentage of field goals (counts every shot 2s and 3s) and shooting 9% better from the the ft line yet his TS percentage is virtually identical.

That is simply not accurate enough of true efficiency.[/QUOTE]
Not opinions. Facts.:oldlol:

Lebron has a higher 2pt percentage than michael and overall he is more efficient from the field(if you ignore FTs) because his eFG(points/possesions adjusted for the fact that three points contribute 50% more points) is higher than jordan's.

[QUOTE=tpols]And yup.. just looked it up and lebron's eFG is higher for his career than jordan's.

Lebron's 2pt percentage is actually the SAME as jordan's. What lowers lebron's FG% is that he takes more threes and FG% desn't account for the fact that 3pointers are worth 50% more than 2pointers. It's unadjusted. When you adjust it, you see that lebron is actually MORE efficient for his career from the field than jordan. It's undebatable.

The reason jordan has a higher TS despite having a lower eFG is because jordan was a much better free throw shooter.. so these stats actually reflect reality perfectly.:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Actually they don't at all. It only accurately reflects efficiency if you want to claim that missing shots is of no consequence.

And taking threes is absolutely reflected in normal fg% and evidenced by ppg.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Holy hell @ the idiocy in this thread.

lol @ most of the people that wouldn't trade a once in three years player for a once in a generation player. Amazing. ****ing amazing. The hype is out of control, or people really don't understand what they're watching. Or... both.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Exactly my point. Thank you. Taking a bunch of threes is highly valued by True Shooting.
[/QUOTE]
Because they're worth 3 points. I feel like you keep talking about 3s as if they're just low percentage shots that count for 2 points, and get weighted more for no reason :lol

[QUOTE=Orlando Magic]Holy hell @ the idiocy in this thread.

lol @ most of the people that wouldn't trade a once in three years player for a once in a generation player. Amazing. ****ing amazing. The hype is out of control, or people really don't understand what they're watching. Or... both.[/QUOTE]


It's not about the players it's about the team.


We are doing DAMN WELL without Bron so screw him.


Why mess up a team, org, city for one guy when we have a young superstar who wants to be here?

We all know how Lebron acts when he doesn't get his way.

:violin:

[QUOTE=chazzy]Because they're worth 3 points. I feel like you keep talking about 3s as if they're just low percentage shots that count for 2 points, and get weighted more for no reason :lol[/QUOTE]

Its about how they are weighted.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]It's not about the players it's about the team.


We are doing DAMN WELL without Bron so screw him.


Why mess up a team, org, city for one guy when we have a young superstar who wants to be here?

We all know how Lebron acts when he doesn't get his way.

:violin:[/QUOTE]

Go Getter: My team is doing great so I wouldn't trade Kwame Brown for peak Shaq. Makes perfect sense... in my mind. ;)

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
And taking threes is absolutely reflected in normal fg% and evidenced by ppg.
[/QUOTE]
No it's not. :oldlol:

A player can score 24ppg on 40%FG.. seems really bad right? Not necessarily.

What if said player is exclusively a 3pt shooter and he averages 8/20 makes/attempts a game with all of them being 3s?

FG would tell us this is a terribly inefficient scorer but in actuality he has a 60%eFG efficiency from the floor meaning he will take away 20 of his teammates scoring opportunities but capitalize on those opporutnities by scoring 24 points.. making him much more than a volume scorer.. something his FG and ppg would tell you COMPLETELY otherwise.

You make no sense bro.:oldlol:

[QUOTE=tpols]And yup.. just looked it up and lebron's eFG is higher for his career than jordan's.

Lebron's 2pt percentage is actually the SAME as jordan's. What lowers lebron's FG% is that he takes more threes and FG% desn't account for the fact that 3pointers are worth 50% more than 2pointers. It's unadjusted. When you adjust it, you see that lebron is actually MORE efficient for his career from the field than jordan. It's undebatable.

The reason jordan has a higher TS despite having a lower eFG is because jordan was a much better free throw shooter.. so these stats actually reflect reality perfectly.:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Uh, have you see Jordan's eFG %'s his first 8 seasons in the league? Wait until LeBron retires or goes into his 30's. His efficiency will drop like a rock.

Jordan:
.518
.462
.484
.537
.546
.550
.547
.526



LeBron:
.438
.504
.515
.507
.518
.530
.545
.541

So no, even when you take 3's into account, Jordan is still in every measure more efficient than LeBron.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Because they're worth 3 points. I feel like you keep talking about 3s as if they're just low percentage shots that count for 2 points, and get weighted more for no reason :lol[/QUOTE]
What this comes down to is gino thinks a 33%3pt shooter=/=a 50% 2pt shooter.

He values how many misses/makes a player has as how efficient he was. That's his opinion.

The true measure of efficiency has already been defined for him multiple times.

[QUOTE=tpols]No it's not. :oldlol:

A player can score 24ppg on 40%FG.. seems really bad right? Not necessarily.

What if said player is exclusively a 3pt shooter and he averages 8/20 makes/attempts a game with all of them being 3s?

FG would tell us this is a terribly inefficient scorer but in actuality he has a 60%eFG efficiency from the floor meaning he will take away 20 of his teammates scoring opportunities but capitalize on those opporutnities by scoring 24 points.. making him much more than a volume scorer.. something his FG and ppg would tell you COMPLETELY otherwise.

You make no sense bro.:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

That is absolutely represented in the raw data. All you have to look at is his 3pt % and attempts.

You act like I'm saying TS has no place in the conversation no matter what. I never said that.

Its just not very accurate in a lot of scenarios. Like in the Deng scenario or the Lebron vs Jordan scenario.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Uh, have you see Jordan's eFG %'s his first 8 seasons in the league? Wait until LeBron retires or goes into his 30's. His efficiency will drop like a rock.

Jordan:
.518
.462
.484
.537
.546
.550
.547
.526



LeBron:
.438
.504
.515
.507
.518
.530
.545
.541

So no, even when you take 3's into account, Jordan is still in every measure more efficient than LeBron.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I'm just using the overall numbers in general for the argument of why TS and eFG are essential stats to use when comparing players who take differing amounts of three pointers. I wasn't really doing an in depth analysis of jordan and lebron.

[QUOTE=Orlando Magic]Go Getter: My team is doing great so I wouldn't trade Kwame Brown for peak Shaq. Makes perfect sense... in my mind. ;)[/QUOTE]


Not so sure if Kwame for Shaq is the same deal as Rose+players for Lebron.

Changing a team's identity is a risky thing.

Lebron has a reputation for being whiny and discontent when things don't go his way.

Our organization is built with a different type of player.

Adding Lebron would not only change the team's roster, but it's attitude.

Why would we mess with that when we have most of the league admiring our style of play?

[QUOTE=tpols]What this comes down to is gino thinks a 33%3pt shooter=/=a 50% 2pt shooter.

He values how many misses/makes a player has as how efficient he was. That's his opinion.

The true measure of efficiency has already been defined for him multiple times.[/QUOTE]

Because that is what the word means. Raw efficiency is makes and misses for everything. field goals, threes, and free throws. you want to plug all these numbers into a formula and have it spit out numbers that are always way closer than reality.

the act of taking more threes does not make a player more efficient that misses more shots and shoots 9% worse from the ft line while scoring less points from the ft line. a .3% difference just doesn't do reality justice.

its not an opinion that missed shots are bad. its just a fact. it is an opinion that taking more threes should be rewarded in an efficiency measure that estimates and manipulates data.

why do you need to manipulate data when you can see the raw data just as easily?

[QUOTE=Go Getter]Lebron is a better leader? A better teammate? A better ball handler? Has a better mid range game (floaters/jumpers)?

He's more loyal to his organization? Carries less baggage? Wants to win more? Plays harder?


I don't think so chump--keep hating.[/QUOTE]

Lebron in his third year pwnd everything Rose has done this year. I bet there were threads in 2007 by you trolls about how Lebron is more humble,a better teammate and plays harder than Kobe.

You are retarded son, very

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]That is absolutely represented in the raw data. All you have to look at is his 3pt % and attempts.
.[/QUOTE]
Yea and if he's shooting 33% from the 3 pt line that is equivalent to shooting 50% from 2pt range. It is the same number of points in the same number of possessions.:oldlol:

So if lebron is taking more threes than jordan OF COURSE his FG will be lower but when you adjust the percentage for the amount of points they actually scored when given the same number of looks they have the same percentage.. and that is what eFG is.

You are actually the idiot for using only FG to compare players when they differ in the amount of threes they take because it gives a distorted picture of who was more efficient.

[QUOTE=tpols]I agree. I'm just using the overall numbers in general for the argument of why TS and eFG are essential stats to use when comparing players who take differing amounts of three pointers. I wasn't really doing an in depth analysis of jordan and lebron.[/QUOTE]

TS% is a little skewed because it takes into account FT's, and judging by the refs and how the rules have helped perimeter players today (the league in general shoots more FTs now), I don't think it's fair to use. Also, on average, a 2 and 3PT shot is worth more than FTs. eFG and FG% are probably the best measures of efficiency.

I just use FT, FG and 3PT%'s to determine if a player got to the line, shot too many 3s and/or FGs. I don't need all these adjusted and advanced stats to tell me whether or not said player was efficient.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Because that is what the word means. Raw efficiency is makes and misses for everything. field goals, threes, and free throws. ?[/QUOTE]
Yup and since threes are worth more than twos a miss from a three is not as costly as a miss from two because it's benefit is 1.5X greater.

You're basically dancing around the point and trying to evade the fact that 3s are worth more than twos by saying that makes are makes and misses are misses. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=tpols]Yea and if he's shooting 33% from the 3 pt line that is equivalent to shooting 50% from 2pt range. It is the same number of points in the same number of possessions.:oldlol:

So if lebron is taking more threes than jordan OF COURSE his FG will be lower but when you adjust the percentage for the amount of points they actually scored when given the same number of looks they have the same percentage.. and that is what eFG is.

You are actually the idiot for using only FG to compare players when they differ in the amount of threes they take because it gives a distorted picture of who was more efficient.[/QUOTE]

but i'm not using just fg%. i'm using everything. LOL moron. that is my point.

I'm saying you should use the raw data. Does Lebron or Jordan have an advantage at the FT line according to True Shooting? How much does it weigh scoring more points at the ft line on 9% better shooting? That is a huge gap.

we aren't arguing efg%. we are arguing ts%.:no:

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]TS% is a little skewed because it takes into account FT's, and judging by the refs and how the rules have helped perimeter players today (the league in general shoots more FTs now), I don't think it's fair to use. Also, on average, a 2 and 3PT shot is worth more than FTs. eFG and FG% are probably the best measures of efficiency.

I just use FT, FG and 3PT%'s to determine if a player got to the line, shot too many 3s and/or FGs. I don't need all these adjusted and advanced stats to tell me whether or not said player was efficient.[/QUOTE]
Don't use TS if thats how you feel.

Use eFG. It is the most accurate measure of how a player scored from the floor because it takes into account 2pt and 3pt percentages.

[QUOTE=tpols]Yup and since threes are worth more than twos a miss from a three is not as costly as a miss from two because it's benefit is 1.5X greater.

You're basically dancing around the point and trying to evade the fact that 3s are worth more than twos by saying that makes are makes and misses are misses. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

not at all. what you are arguing for is efg%. we aren't even talking about that.

[QUOTE=Andrei89]Lebron in his third year pwnd everything Rose has done this year. I bet there were threads in 2007 by you trolls about how Lebron is more humble,a better teammate and plays harder than Kobe.

You are retarded son, very[/QUOTE]


Well, if Rose wins MVP your first statement would be patently false.

And Rose and crew beat a "super team" that was destined to win 73 games this season not once, not twice, but three times.

why would you pull me into a Kobe Vs. Lebron debate?

I don't know how that pertains to anything sir.

[QUOTE=tpols]Don't use TS if thats how you feel.

Use eFG. It is the most accurate measure of how a player scored from the floor because it takes into account 2pt and 3pt percentages.[/QUOTE]

actually its not. looking at the raw fg% and raw 3pt percentage is more accurate.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]
I don't need all these adjusted and advanced stats to tell me whether or not said player was efficient.[/QUOTE]
And yet you preach W/S and PER as tell-all stats like they're gospel :oldlol:

[QUOTE=chazzy]And yet you preach W/S and PER as tell-all stats like they're gospel :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
:lol

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
I'm saying you should use the raw data. Does Lebron or Jordan have an advantage at the FT line according to True Shooting? How much does it weigh scoring more points at the ft line on 9% better shooting? That is a huge gap.[/QUOTE]
Jordan absolutely has an advantage at the line. Jordan, as I said before, is less efficient from the field than lebron(eFG).. but he is 9% more efficient from the line. This jumps him ahead of lebron in TS because all TS is is eFG with FTs taken into account. It literally reflects reality perfectly.:oldlol:
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
we aren't arguing efg%. we are arguing ts%.:no:[/QUOTE]
Wait but misses are important right? You said before misses and makes were all that mattered and now you don't want to argue eFG? Of course you don't because I just showed you that lebron's eFG is higher than jordan's because lebron has a higher 2ptFG that is masked by the fact that he takes more 3s. Sit down son.

Lebron is the better athlete, better talent, better individual player

But Rose is the better teammate, better leader, better attitude, clutch player and cares about winning more than anything else

I wonder what could have happened if Lebron signed with chicago instead. Would they have the same chemistry they have now?

[QUOTE=Go Getter]Well, if Rose wins MVP your first statement would be patently false.

And Rose and crew beat a "super team" that was destined to win 73 games this season not once, not twice, but three times.

why would you pull me into a Kobe Vs. Lebron debate?

I don't know how that pertains to anything sir.[/QUOTE]

You clearly don't get it do you.

Lebron in his third year averaged like 31 points 7 assist and 7 rebounds on 48% shooting. Add a 50-32 record to that with a team that wasn't even near the level Chicago is right now.

Trolls like PleezeBelieve back then were making threads and trolled hard about how Lerbon is humble, plays hard, is a winner etc etc etc etc.

Now all of a sudden Rose is in his third year and he is better than Lebron because he is humble, and a winner and plays hard.

People judge every player season by season to be honest. Wait until their careers are over, then you can troll about Rose > James.

These stupid trolls will turn on Rose so fast if he is having an off year you would not even imagine. They are no basketball fans, they just have no life.

Look at PleezeBelieve, if he was a true basketball fan he would stop making obsession threads about Lebron James and concentrate on Cleveland. Instead he makes dupe accounts to praise Lebron with them and smash him with the original.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
I'm saying you should use the raw data. Does Lebron or Jordan have an advantage at the FT line according to True Shooting? How much does it weigh scoring more points at the ft line on 9% better shooting? That is a huge gap.
[/QUOTE]
Jordan gets the advantage because Lebron's eFG% is better, the FT shooting is what makes his TS% better. Lebron's superior FT rate is what makes it closer though.

[QUOTE=chazzy]And yet you preach W/S and PER as tell-all stats like they're gospel :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Writing a novel about me? :oldlol:

Anyway, I use those stats because they're not just measures of efficiency; they combine EVERYTHING into how a player is producing (his production).

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]actually its not. looking at the raw fg% and raw 3pt percentage is more accurate.[/QUOTE]

This.

[QUOTE=tpols]Jordan absolutely has an advantage at the line. Jordan, as I said before, is less efficient from the field than lebron(eFG).. but he is 9% more efficient from the line. This jumps him ahead of lebron in TS because all TS is is eFG with FTs taken into account. It literally reflects reality perfectly.:oldlol:

Wait but misses are important right? You said before misses and makes were all that mattered and now you don't want to argue eFG? Of course you don't because I just showed you that lebron's eFG is higher than jordan's because lebron has a higher 2ptFG that is masked by the fact that he takes more 3s. Sit down son.[/QUOTE]


my god. no it doesn't. you are ignoring so many things.

sit down son?

wtf are you talking about? you aren't even understanding what we are debating.

we are debating raw data vs manipulated data. you prefer manipulating data and estimating points per possession. i prefer looking at the raw data and making conclusions.

again. i don't think true shooting is balanced properly because it does not account for missed shots the way raw numbers show you and values free throw rate too high.

Raw %s don't account for volume at all, how is only looking at FG% and 3P% superior to eFG%?