ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #2 Kobe Bryant vs Magic Johnson.

[QUOTE=The-Legend-24]:oldlol: This shit ain't even close. I'll go with the GREATEST LAKER OF ALL TIME , AKA [B]KOBE "DA GAWD" BRYANT[/B]. :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

Silly Rene, posts like this are why you don't have a vote.

Kobe

-Much better scorer
-Much better on-ball defender
-Better take-over player
-Better longevity
-Played in a significantly better defensive era, especially in the PS
-Higher WAR/Peak PER
-Just as much rings despite lesser supporting casts
-Better shooter
-More skilled (better foot-work, shot-creator,mid-range game etc)

Next.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Explain why Kobe is better than Magic... without quotes from players and ex-legends. Break down their individual games. I'll wait pop rocks.[/QUOTE]


You really want me to break down thier individual games with a wall of text that No one will read anyways???...I can do that....but still most folks won't understand...


so...


Kobe is better because....






he's a better offensive player..














and




















Defensive player...


























phew....that was EZ.




























next

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]

Kobe is better because....[/QUOTE]

You are about as credible as that bomb I just splayed out in the toilet after a night out for some thai food. Kobe a better offensive player?...:lol

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]You are about as credible as that bomb I just splayed out in the toilet after a night out for some thai food. Kobe a better offensive player?...:lol[/QUOTE]

Apparently, offense is all about scoring the ball....

Let's see, of the top 25 greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time, Magic Johnson has been on 9 of them. He has been the main assist leader for 7 of them. 5 of these teams are in the Top 10 alone. 2 of them are in Top 3 and which includes the greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time. Here they are:

1984-85 Lakers 118.2 pts [B]31.4ast [/B]54.5%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.2ast) #1 all-time
1982-83 Lakers 115.0 pts [B]30.7ast [/B]52.8%fg (Magic 10.5ast, Nixon 7.2ast) #3 all-time
1983-84 Lakers 115.6 pts [B]29.9ast [/B]53.2%fg (Magic 13.1ast, Cooper 5.9ast) # 6 all-time
1985-86 Lakers 117.3 pts [B]29.7ast [/B]52.2%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.7ast) # 8 all-time
1986-87 Lakers 117.8 pts [B]29.6ast [/B]51.6%fg (Magic 12.2ast, Cooper 4.5ast) # 9 all-time
1979-80 Lakers 115.1 pts [B]29.4ast [/B]52.9%fg (Nixon 7.8ast, Magic 7.3ast) # 12 all-time
1980-81 Lakers 111.2 pts [B]28.8ast [/B]51.2%fg (Nixon 8.8ast, Magic 8.6ast - 37 games) # 17 all-time
1981-82 Lakers 114.6 pts [B]28.7ast [/B]51.7%fg (Magic 9.5ast, Nixon 8.0ast) # 20 all-time
1987-88 Lakers 112.8 pts [B]28.6ast [/B]50.5%fg (Magic 11.9ast, Cooper 4.7ast, Scott 4.1ast) #23 all-time

The 84-85 and 82-83 teams are 2 of 5 teams that have had averaged 30+ assists per game for a season. Magic is responsible for 2 of them, both of which went to the Finals (1-1). Not to mention every single one of those teams hit over 50%.

Magic was a much better offensive player in getting his teams involved than Kobe ever did. How many of Kobe's teams have even come close to that type of ball movement and efficient scoring ? Much better in getting the best out of his teammates. Better creator for his teammates and a high I.Q. on how to get the best out of his teammates on the floor.

When it comes to the mental side of the game..

Court vision
making the right play at the right time
making other players better
vocal leadership on and off the floor
clutch play
overall BBIQ

I never saw anyone better than Magic. He put up big numbers but watching him play i never got the impression that he really cared about them. it always seemed like the only thing that mattered to him was winning.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Let's see, of the top 25 greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time, Magic Johnson has been on 9 of them. He has been the main assist leader for 7 of them. 5 of these teams are in the Top 10 alone. 2 of them are in Top 3 and which includes the greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time. Here they are:

1984-85 Lakers 118.2 pts [B]31.4ast [/B]54.5%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.2ast) #1 all-time
1982-83 Lakers 115.0 pts [B]30.7ast [/B]52.8%fg (Magic 10.5ast, Nixon 7.2ast) #3 all-time
1983-84 Lakers 115.6 pts [B]29.9ast [/B]53.2%fg (Magic 13.1ast, Cooper 5.9ast) # 6 all-time
1985-86 Lakers 117.3 pts [B]29.7ast [/B]52.2%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.7ast) # 8 all-time
1986-87 Lakers 117.8 pts [B]29.6ast [/B]51.6%fg (Magic 12.2ast, Cooper 4.5ast) # 9 all-time
1979-80 Lakers 115.1 pts [B]29.4ast [/B]52.9%fg (Nixon 7.8ast, Magic 7.3ast) # 12 all-time
1980-81 Lakers 111.2 pts [B]28.8ast [/B]51.2%fg (Nixon 8.8ast, Magic 8.6ast - 37 games) # 17 all-time
1981-82 Lakers 114.6 pts [B]28.7ast [/B]51.7%fg (Magic 9.5ast, Nixon 8.0ast) # 20 all-time
1987-88 Lakers 112.8 pts [B]28.6ast [/B]50.5%fg (Magic 11.9ast, Cooper 4.7ast, Scott 4.1ast) #23 all-time

The 84-85 and 82-83 teams are 2 of 5 teams that have had averaged 30+ assists per game for a season. Magic is responsible for 2 of them, both of which went to the Finals (1-1). Not to mention every single one of those teams hit over 50%.

Magic was a much better offensive player in getting his teams involved than Kobe ever did. How many of Kobe's teams have even come close to that type of ball movement and efficient scoring ? Much better in getting the best out of his teammates. Better creator for his teammates and a high I.Q. on how to get the best out of his teammates on the floor.[/QUOTE]

Looking at assists without compensating for the faster pace of Magic's era is silly.

[QUOTE=Kobe Bryant's Balls]Looking at assists without compensating for the faster pace of Magic's era is silly.[/QUOTE]
LOL gotta love Kobe stans. If all else fails, they always pull out the classic "b-b-b-but-but-but...Kobe plays in a tougher era!!!!!!"

[QUOTE=tontoz]When it comes to the mental side of the game..

Court vision
making the right play at the right time
making other players better
vocal leadership on and off the floor
clutch play
overall BBIQ

I never saw anyone better than Magic. He put up big numbers but watching him play i never got the impression that he really cared about them. it always seemed like the only thing that mattered to him was winning.[/QUOTE]

+1.

All of the above and the statement about numbers, Kobe has all been questioned or either been overrated in. Not to say he hasn't wanted to win, but he more than enough times has done so for the sake of himself and not in his teams best interest.

[QUOTE=RRR3]LOL gotta love Kobe stans. If all else fails, they always pull out the classic "b-b-b-but-but-but...Kobe plays in a tougher era!!!!!!"[/QUOTE]

A slower pace doesn't make the era tougher. It just means per game raw offensive statistics are deflated. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]A slower pace doesn't make the era tougher. It just means per game raw offensive statistics are deflated. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
U gotta be a dumba$$ not to take this into consideration

It all depends what u want. Kobe brings a little of everthing, but if u want a better teammate and to an extend better team offense go with magic

Yeah, Nash is a better offensive player than either Magic or Kobe, just look at those offenses he's lead. Superior to both. lolz.

As if Kobe wouldn't lead dominant ( well he already has) offenses with Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott/McAdoo/Thompson/Perkins/Wilkes/etc etc. :lol

Has anyone in history played with as much talent as Magic?

And I love the moronic Kobe wants to for himself line by that idiot Legend.

:roll:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Looking at assists without compensating for the faster pace of Magic's era is silly.[/QUOTE]

Would you say that the 50's, 60's, and 70's had faster pace than the 80's ?

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Apparently, offense is all about scoring the ball....[/QUOTE]


:facepalm

Magic would have averaged even MORE assists if he didnt play on the Lakers.

Why? The Lakers had plenty of capable ballhandlers and passers that Magic didnt have the ball as much as he would have on a team with less talent.

Look at Stocktons numbers, he was usually the only capable passer/ballhandler on most of his teams.

Eh, depends on the situation.

Magic has the 6-9 PG versatility, being an engine that makes the entire team better etc. The same reasons you could justify picking him over anyone in history.

Kobe has the D, ability to impose his will on the other team with his scoring binges, getting them into foul trouble, no technical weaknesses in his game etc.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Would you say that the 50's, 60's, and 70's had faster pace than the 80's ?[/QUOTE]

I don't know. You have to look it up. It isn't an opinion based question.

[SIZE="7"][/SIZE][QUOTE=eliteballer]Magic would have averaged even MORE assists if he didnt play on the Lakers.

Why? The Lakers had plenty of capable ballhandlers and passers that Magic didnt have the ball as much as he would have on a team with less talent.

Look at Stocktons numbers, he was usually the only capable passer/ballhandler on most of his teams.

Eh, depends on the situation.

Magic has the 6-9 PG versatility, being an engine that makes the entire team better etc. [B][SIZE="7"]The same reasons you could justify picking him over anyone in history.
[/SIZE][/B]
Kobe has the D, ability to impose his will on the other team with his scoring binges, getting them into foul trouble, no technical weaknesses in his game etc.[/QUOTE]


[B][SIZE="7"]THIS[/SIZE][/B].....but I guarantee the 10 voters here will pick Magic....



then when he goes up against Jordan , all those things will thrown out the window....

book it.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Magic would have averaged even MORE assists if he didnt play on the Lakers.

Why? The Lakers had plenty of capable ballhandlers and passers that Magic didnt have the ball as much as he would have on a team with less talent.

Look at Stocktons numbers, he was usually the only capable passer/ballhandler on most of his teams.

Eh, depends on the situation.

Magic has the 6-9 PG versatility, being an engine that makes the entire team better etc. The same reasons you could justify picking him over anyone in history.

Kobe has the D, ability to impose his will on the other team with his scoring binges, getting them into foul trouble, [B]no technical weaknesses in his game etc.[/B][/QUOTE]

Shot selection is still a weakness though. There's no excuse for him to be a 45% career shooter with how much his game is based on the offensive side of the ball.

With Magic, you were NEVER crossing your fingers, hoping and praying he'd make the right decisions with the ball like you would be with Kobe.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]I don't know. You have to look it up. It isn't an opinion based question.[/QUOTE]

Oh ok. Can you show me the pace average of the 50's, 60's, and 70's ? I can't seem to find them.

Also, I should have asked better, was the 50's, 60, and 70's pace faster than the 80's pace ?

[QUOTE=Nevaeh]Shot selection is still a weakness though. There's no excuse for him to be a 45% career shooter with how much his game is based on the offensive side of the ball.

With Magic, you were NEVER crossing your fingers, hoping and praying he'd make the right decisions with the ball like you would be with Kobe.[/QUOTE]


Uh...did you even watch Magic early in his career??...when he Choked against Boston people were calling him Tragic Magic....

obviously you never watched the Showtime Lakers.....early in his career Magic was not the First option to close out Games...Kareem/Macadoo were relied on more .....magic was the primary Ball handler and would feed the post and facilitate.....

Kobe has been the #1 Option in Crunchtime his whole career.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]Uh...did you even watch Magic early in his career??...when he Choked against Boston people were calling him Tragic Magic....

obviously you never watched the Showtime Lakers.....early in his career Magic was not the First option to close out Games...Kareem/Macadoo were relied on more .....magic was the primary Ball handler and would feed the post and facilitate.....

[B]Kobe has been the #1 Option in Crunchtime his [SIZE="3"]whole career[/SIZE].[/B][/QUOTE]

Dude, you're better when you're just making pretty pictures, cause you obviously do NOT watch NBA Basketball. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Nevaeh]Dude, you're better when you're just making pretty pictures, cause you obviously do NOT watch NBA Basketball. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]


huh?...the only years when you could say he wasn't was 97 - 98...

and even then he was jackin up airball's....

from 99'/00' he has been the #1 option to close games....


apply yourself
















next

[quote=AlphaWolf24]Uh...did you even watch Magic early in his career??...when he Choked against Boston people were calling him Tragic Magic....

obviously you never watched the Showtime Lakers.....early in his career Magic was not the First option to close out Games...Kareem/Macadoo were relied on more .....magic was the primary Ball handler and would feed the post and facilitate.....

Kobe has been the #1 Option in Crunchtime[B] his whole career[/B].[/quote]
Yeah, Magic caught a lot of flak for what happened in the 84 Finals. DJ really locked him down in that series.

[URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/index.htm"]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/index.htm[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y[/URL]

You're wrong on the Kobe thing though.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Oh ok. Can you show me the pace average of the 50's, 60's, and 70's ? I can't seem to find them.

Also, I should have asked better, was the 50's, 60, and 70's pace faster than the 80's pace ?[/QUOTE]

You can get a rough feel for the differences in pace by looking at the avg team points per game in each year


2008-2011 about 100
2005-2008 about 97
2001-2004 about 95

vs


1980-1988 about 109
1989-1991 about 107

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1989.html[/url]

[QUOTE=Doctor Rivers]Yeah, Magic caught a lot of flak for what happened in the 84 Finals. DJ really locked him down in that series.

[URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/index.htm"]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/index.htm[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y[/URL]

You're wrong on the Kobe thing though.[/QUOTE]

Magic did come back with a vengeance and his record vs Bird in the Finals is 2-1.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQzTCxWpdMM&feature=related[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-fEDLzNUMc&feature=related[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q92n5FcQigA[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAMuXrTegSY[/url]

As great players always do.

[QUOTE=Doctor Rivers]Yeah, Magic caught a lot of flak for what happened in the 84 Finals. DJ really locked him down in that series.

[URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/index.htm"]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119455/index.htm[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y[/URL]

You're wrong on the Kobe thing though.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, really locked him down to the tune of 18 points, 8 boards, 14 assists, 2 steals on 56% shooting per game for the series:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Let's see, of the top 25 greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time, Magic Johnson has been on 9 of them. He has been the main assist leader for 7 of them. 5 of these teams are in the Top 10 alone. 2 of them are in Top 3 and which includes the greatest passing offensive/efficient teams of all-time. Here they are:

1984-85 Lakers 118.2 pts [B]31.4ast [/B]54.5%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.2ast) #1 all-time
1982-83 Lakers 115.0 pts [B]30.7ast [/B]52.8%fg (Magic 10.5ast, Nixon 7.2ast) #3 all-time
1983-84 Lakers 115.6 pts [B]29.9ast [/B]53.2%fg (Magic 13.1ast, Cooper 5.9ast) # 6 all-time
1985-86 Lakers 117.3 pts [B]29.7ast [/B]52.2%fg (Magic 12.6ast, Cooper 5.7ast) # 8 all-time
1986-87 Lakers 117.8 pts [B]29.6ast [/B]51.6%fg (Magic 12.2ast, Cooper 4.5ast) # 9 all-time
1979-80 Lakers 115.1 pts [B]29.4ast [/B]52.9%fg (Nixon 7.8ast, Magic 7.3ast) # 12 all-time
1980-81 Lakers 111.2 pts [B]28.8ast [/B]51.2%fg (Nixon 8.8ast, Magic 8.6ast - 37 games) # 17 all-time
1981-82 Lakers 114.6 pts [B]28.7ast [/B]51.7%fg (Magic 9.5ast, Nixon 8.0ast) # 20 all-time
1987-88 Lakers 112.8 pts [B]28.6ast [/B]50.5%fg (Magic 11.9ast, Cooper 4.7ast, Scott 4.1ast) #23 all-time

The 84-85 and 82-83 teams are 2 of 5 teams that have had averaged 30+ assists per game for a season. Magic is responsible for 2 of them, both of which went to the Finals (1-1). Not to mention every single one of those teams hit over 50%.

Magic was a much better offensive player in getting his teams involved than Kobe ever did. How many of Kobe's teams have even come close to that type of ball movement and efficient scoring ? Much better in getting the best out of his teammates. Better creator for his teammates and a high I.Q. on how to get the best out of his teammates on the floor.[/QUOTE]

Good stuff. :cheers:

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Yeah, really locked him down to the tune of 18 points, 8 boards, 14 assists, 2 steals on 56% shooting per game for the series:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

18.0ppg 7.7reb 13.6ast 2.0stl 0.9blk 56%fg 74.4%ft to be exact. And if the Lakers win Game 7, Magic wins Finals MVP.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Yeah, Nash is a better offensive player than either Magic or Kobe, just look at those offenses he's lead. Superior to both. lolz.

As if Kobe wouldn't lead dominant ( well he already has) offenses with Kareem/Worthy/Cooper/Scott/McAdoo/Thompson/Perkins/Wilkes/etc etc. :lol

Has anyone in history played with as much talent as Magic?

And I love the moronic Kobe wants to for himself line by that idiot Legend.

:roll:[/QUOTE]
Kobe Bryant had the largest increase in playoff defensive quality by raw change, facing defenses 3.2 points stingier than what he saw in the regular season. Only Shaquille O

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]You can get a rough feel for the differences in pace by looking at the avg team points per game in each year


2008-2011 about 100
2005-2008 about 97
2001-2004 about 95

vs


1980-1988 about 109
1989-1991 about 107

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1989.html[/url][/QUOTE]

Magic ran selectively. He was responsible for pace and high quality shots. He ran the most efficient high octane offense the leage ever seen. High quantity and great quality. They employed a slow down game as well for Kareem. The offensive rating of his teams, the high number of assist, the great FG% is a trademark of his presence. This was something he brought to the team. He could control and was responsible for the high quality of one of the best oiled machines in the history of the sport.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Yeah, really locked him down to the tune of 18 points, 8 boards, 14 assists, 2 steals on 56% shooting per game for the series:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

Eh...I suppose not, but he definitely contributed to the critical errors he made in the Finals

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Magic did come back with a vengeance and his record vs Bird in the Finals is 2-1.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQzTCxWpdMM&feature=related[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-fEDLzNUMc&feature=related[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q92n5FcQigA[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAMuXrTegSY[/url]

As great players always do.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

duh

[B]Magic[/B]


He was the face of the Lakers. He was more efficient on the offensive end, made others around him better, better rebounder, better ball handler, made much smarter decisions with the basketball, and completely took over the team once Kareem aged and Riley told him he had to.

Kobe, although he too has 5 rings, only has 2 as the big dog. He's obviously the better scorer, but he does make some questionable decisions with the ball. His D is better, but his 25-30 PPG, his very average shooting percentage, and his choices do not put him above Magic

move on to magic vs jordan for the 1 spot before we hear anymore kobe driven agendas... magic has the vote count wrapped up pretty much

[QUOTE=D.J.][B]Magic[/B]


He was the face of the Lakers. He was more efficient on the offensive end, made others around him better, better rebounder, better ball handler, made much smarter decisions with the basketball, and completely took over the team once[B] Kareem[/B] aged and Riley told him he had to.

Kobe, although he too has 5 rings, only has 2 as the [B][SIZE="5"]big dog[/SIZE][/B]. He's obviously the better scorer, but he does make some questionable decisions with the ball. His D is better, but his 25-30 PPG, his very average shooting percentage, and his choices do not put him above Magic[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="4"][/SIZE]

:facepalm

[QUOTE=Boston C's]move on to magic vs jordan for the 1 spot before we hear anymore kobe driven agendas... magic has the vote count wrapped up pretty much[/QUOTE]


yup those 10 hard core fans:rolleyes: ...voted thier vote....

Magic wasn't the best player on the Lakers in 1980,82, or 85.

And I didn't realize 56% TS, 57% TS during prime, 58% TS at peak was average.

SMH.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24][SIZE="4"][/SIZE]

:facepalm[/QUOTE]


Who do you think was the big dog from 2000-2002? Perhaps it was one with 3 Finals MVP's?