Defense vs. Offense

[quote]Magic is pretty unique so I am not so sure I would agree with this. That being said, if you ask me picking one player over the other to build around doesn't necessarily mean that one player is better than the other.[/QUOTE]

Magic is higher on my all-time list, but its because he was more accomplished. I love the guy, one of my favorite players ever... Hakeem though? Guy is arguable the most skilled offensive/defensive player the game's seen. I can't imagine what he'd do had he not played with trash 70% of his career.

[QUOTE=catch24]Magic is higher on my all-time list, but its because he was more accomplished. I love the guy, one of my favorite players ever... Hakeem though? Guy is arguable the most skilled offensive/defensive player the game's seen. I can't imagine what he'd do had he not played with trash 70% of his career.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I view it the same way

Guys, we're talking solely about defense vs. offense. The things listed in the first post are the ONLY things these players are good at.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Maybe if basketball was one on one, then that would make irrefutable sense but what you're failing to realize is individual D is inherently a part of team defense. Basketball IS a team game, even within the context of "who would you build with ?" kinds of questions. Team aspect of basketball, even within individual defense (IE. help defense, etc) does matter.

You completely avoided my question though...

Did Dirk negatively effect that series against New Orleans with his lack of defense? In the same way that Duncan could not "stop" Dirk, wouldn't you say that Dirk not being able to "stop" David West ultimately lead to the loss for the Mavs? (David West put up 25 in the last game leading all scorers). It's not about who's known as a defensive player, it's about what lead to the loss ultimately, regardless of labels.

What I'm asking is, don't you think defense (or lack therof) is generally the "maker or breaker" of a series in todays basketball?

Don't you think neutralizing player X is just as, if not more, important than scoring x amount of points? (think, forcing Lebron into a crappy series being the tipping scale to a loss).

Let me ask you this... assuming you have two players of equal value, one who's more offensively inclined and one who's more defensively inclined... both have equal value... On a personal level, which player do you choose? Personally, I'd choose the defensive player, because I think it's a more important quality, more conducive to winning in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

No, I don't think Dirk negatively impacted the Hornets series. Just like I don't think Duncan negatively impacted the Mavs series. Never said such a thing.

Individual defense is of course part of team defense. I'm not discounting its importance. I just think the ability to carry a team offensively and take over in crunch time is worth more individually than being able to play great defense individually.

Furthermore, a great offensive player is pretty much a great offensive player regardless of teammates. In terms of impact at least. Defensively? I don't think the same is true to the extent it is with offense.

So you would take Garnett over Magic? Pippen over Bird? Payton over Dirk? Mourning over Barkley?

I can't answer your equal value question because that isn't realistic. Pippen is a great example of this for me. Great defender...maybe the best perimeter defender ever. Would I take him over Magic...who strictly played offense? Hell no. I think Magic was easily the higher impact player. Would I take Pippen over Barkley? Nope. Over Dirk? Nope. Would I take Pippen over Wade? Nope.

I think when you breakdown players strictly offense vs offense and defense vs defense....the overall impact is lost.

Do I think team defense is the make or break factor? Its certainly important....but so is late game execution and performance. I could just as easily argue that the difference in the finals was that Dirk was unstoppable while both Wade and Lebron struggled late in the games.

Well, maybe I can answer your question. If you have me two players of equal value and one had a specialty of defense...and the other had a specialty of late game clutch play. Give me the guy that can be consistently relied upon to be there night after night in tight games. Teams can make up for that lack of defense out of one player. Its very difficult to find a way to consistently perform in the 4th qtrs (especially in the playoffs) without an elite offense weapon.

[QUOTE=catch24]Depends on the position. I know I'd take Hakeem over Magic because of his insane impact on the defensive end. Olajuwon's scoring, play-making, etc is all secondary to me.[/QUOTE]

I think its debatable. I personally think Magic was the higher impact player. I'd take Magic. And nobody would bat an eye at me for saying so.

So if its debatable between a player that was great offensively but played almost no defense vs a player that was one of the highest impact defenders ever and also a great offensive player....

Doesn't that mean individual offense matters more? I mean, if defense was really of higher value...then Hakeem would simply have easily been a better player than Magic.

And everyone that ever watched both of them play simply knows that not to be true.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I think its debatable. I personally think Magic was the higher impact player. I'd take Magic. And nobody would bat an eye at me for saying so.

Doesn't that mean individual offense matters more? I mean, if defense was really of higher value...then Hakeem would simply have easily been a better player than Magic.[/quote]

I'm not suggesting that defense matters more. What I am saying..is Hakeem was more versatile and a better all-around player...not sure if that's debatable. Lets be real, Hakeem's impact on the defensive end really doesn't take a back seat to anyone, whereas Magic...well he wasn't just another run in the mill offensive player. The guy arguably had the greatest impact on that end.

It's basically a pick'em imo.

[QUOTE=catch24]I'm not suggesting that defense matters more. What I am saying..is Hakeem was more versatile and a better all-around player...not sure if that's debatable. Lets be real, Hakeem's impact on the defensive end really doesn't take a back seat to anyone, whereas Magic...well he wasn't just another run in the mill offensive player. The guy arguably had the greatest impact on that end.

It's basically a pick'em imo.[/QUOTE]

I understand. But if Hakeem was that good defensively and also a truly great offensive player as well....and Magic was pretty much strictly an offensive player.

Doesn't that imply that offensive brilliance is more valuable than defensive brilliance.

There are other examples as well.

Wouldn't that imply that a player like KG should be easily better than Barkley? KG played all time great defense....Barkley admittedly didn't care about defense at all. But anyone that watched them both play should be willing to admit that Barkley vs KG overall is a legit debate. And so I don't see how defense in this scenario can be more valuable. Because we are taking some of the highest impact defenders ever...that also were very good to great offensive players...and comparing them to strictly offensive players and its debatable as to which player is superior.

Just doesn't add up if defense is worth more.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I understand. But if Hakeem was that good defensively and also a truly great offensive player as well....and Magic was pretty much strictly an offensive player.

Doesn't that imply that offensive brilliance is more valuable than defensive brilliance.[/quote]

I don't think so. From what I understand, most people rank Magic higher all-time, and that's because of the Lakers team accomplishments (which concurrently is the reason people would take Magic>>>Hakeem). I'm not taking anything away from him; Magic was driving force of those dynasty teams, but can you honestly say with a straight face that he was the better player?

You got me looking like a hypocrite over here man. I just got finished making a thread on his comeback :oldlol:

[QUOTE=catch24]I don't think so. From what I understand, most people rank Magic higher all-time, and that's because of the Lakers team accomplishments (which concurrently is the reason people would take Magic>>>Hakeem). I'm not taking anything away from him; Magic was driving force of those dynasty teams, but can you honestly say with a straight face that he was the better player?

You got me looking like a hypocrite over here man. I just got finished making a thread on his comeback :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Did you watch Magic play? Absolutely I can say he was a better player with a straight face. I kind of hope you didn't see Magic and Hakeem play the majority of their careers. LOL at acting like its a stretch to say Magic was just a better basketball player. I'd take Magic over Hakeem in a heartbeat to start a team.

But Magic doesn't even have to be better for me to prove my point. It just has to be debatable.

Take the 89 season. Hakeem put up something like 25/14/2....he was great offensively and led the league in defensive win shares. Easily one of the best defenders in the league.

Who do I think was better that year? Magic...not a doubt in my mind. And Magic hardly played a lick of defense....at least not compared to Hakeem.

[QUOTE]but can you honestly say with a straight face that he was the better player?[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

[QUOTE=PHILA]:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Yep.

But in his defense...there is no way he actually saw them both play the majority of their careers. I've never heard anyone that actually watched from 1980 onwards that would question someone saying Magic was a better basketball player than Hakeem.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Did you watch Magic play? Absolutely I can say he was a better player with a straight face. I kind of hope you didn't see Magic and Hakeem play the majority of their careers. LOL at acting like its a stretch to say Magic was just a better basketball player. I'd take Magic over Hakeem in a heartbeat to start a team.[/quote]

What's with the lame questions? I wouldn't be dropping comments had I not seen him play. Relax guy. Strictly off basketball skills and ability, Hakeem was the better player. Hakeem was better defensively, a better rebounder and scorer; Magic had him beat in playmaking. That's really it. I've watched both play and am comfortable with this opinion.

I get the impression you would take Magic because of his intangibles (e.g, clutch-play, leadership and high iq).

That's fine. :confusedshrug:

[quote]But Magic doesn't even have to be better for me to prove my point. It just has to be debatable[/quote]

I never said it wasn't debatable. All I'm really asking is if you honestly believe Magic, from an all-around standpoint, was better? I fail to see it.

[QUOTE=catch24]What's with the lame questions? I wouldn't be commenting if I didn't him play. Relax guy. Strictly off basketball skills and ability, Hakeem was the better player. Hakeem was a better defensive player, rebounder and scorer; Magic had him beat in playmaking. That's really it. I've watched both play and am comfortable with this opinion.

I get the impression you would take Magic because of his intangibles (e.g, clutch-play, leadership and high iq).

That's fine. :confusedshrug:



I never said it wasn't debatable. All I'm really asking is if you honestly believe Magic, from an all-around standpoint, was better? I fail to see it.[/QUOTE]

Yes Yes Yes. I would take Magic over Hakeem because I think Magic was just a better basketball player.

I think he had a bigger impact on the game. I asked the question because honestly it sounds like you didn't see either of them play.

This is exactly my point with these lame ass offense vs offense and defense vs defense breakdowns. You lose the true impact of some players...and some players get over-rated.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

I think he had a bigger impact on the game. I asked the question because honestly it sounds like you didn't see either of them play.[/quote]

What? For thinking Hakeem was better? This makes utterly no sense at all.

I thought Hakeem had just as much impact on his teams as Magic. My argument is that had his management surrounded him with better casts, he'd be up there with Magic and some of the other legends. Of course this is speculation, but that's how good I thought the guy was.

[QUOTE=catch24]What? For thinking Hakeem was better? This makes utterly no sense at all.

I thought Hakeem had just as much impact on his teams as Magic. My argument is that had his management surrounded him with better casts, he'd be up there with Magic and some of the other legends. Of course this is speculation, but that's how good I thought the guy was.[/QUOTE]

not for saying that...for saying:

"can you honestly tell me with a straight face that you thought magic was better....i just don't see it"

for that.

so you think they are debatable. we both agree that hakeem was a far superior defender and also a great offensive player. so how can they be debatable if defense (not saying you are saying this..but this is to the others) is more important individually. you have one of the greatest impact defenders ever and also a great offensive player vs an all time great offensive player that played very little defense comparatively. if defense was truly more valuable individually...then Hakeem would be the clear cut better player. But that of course just is not the case.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]not for saying that...for saying:

"can you honestly tell me with a straight face that you thought magic was better....i just don't see it"

for that.[/QUOTE]

When I proposed that question I was merely going off basketball skills. I don't see how Magic had more basketball skills than Hakeem. :confusedshrug:

Hakeem: Elite rebounding, legendary defense, elite scoring, great leadership (must take some when you're leading the cast that he was surrounded with to the Finals 2x), great clutch play

vs.

Magic: Great rebounding, legendary playmaking, below average defense, great scoring, first-class leadership qualities, great clutch-play.

Magic had more weaknesses, imo.

Hakeem also had pretty damn good playmaking abilities. Probably the best at his position during his peak...or prime.

[QUOTE=catch24]When I proposed that question I was merely going off basketball skills. I don't see how Magic had more basketball skills than Hakeem. :confusedshrug:

Hakeem: Elite rebounding, legendary defense, elite scoring, great leadership (must take some when you're leading the cast that he was surrounded with to the Finals 2x), great clutch play

vs.

Magic: Great rebounding, legendary playmaking, below average defense, great scoring, first-class leadership qualities, great clutch-play.

Magic had more weaknesses, imo.[/QUOTE]

Again, this is my problem with breaking down players like this. The true value of a player can often be lost...or weakened....or some can be over-rated.

Until we realize that some aspects of basketball are more valuable than others, we'll be stuck in this weird area in which you can argue on paper that Pippen is better than Magic or that KG was easily better than Barkley/Dirk. A lot is lost in those breakdowns. Just my opinion though.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Again, this is my problem with breaking down players like this. The true value of a player can often be lost...or weakened....or some can be over-rated.[/quote]

Like I said, Hakeem brought more to his teams...and HAD to do more for them to even be considered contenders.

Agree to disagree.

[quote]Until we realize that some aspects of basketball are more valuable than others, we'll be stuck in this weird area in which you can argue on paper that Pippen is better than Magic or that KG was easily better than Barkley/Dirk. A lot is lost in those breakdowns. Just my opinion though.[/QUOTE]

Pippen vs. Barkley/Dirk is a little different imo. While Pipp's defense was all-time great, he didn't have the impact Hakeem did...at least not enough to out-weigh Magic's offensive abilities.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Again, this is my problem with breaking down players like this. The true value of a player can often be lost...or weakened....or some can be over-rated.

Until we realize that some aspects of basketball are more valuable than others, we'll be stuck in this weird area in which you can argue on paper that Pippen is better than Magic or that KG was easily better than Barkley/Dirk. A lot is lost in those breakdowns. Just my opinion though.[/QUOTE]
Not at all..

You were criticizing one of the posters you were arguing with before for using Bill Russel as an example of defense trumping offense.. because he was the only true example of a defensive superstar who had a GOAT level impact.

But then you turn around and use the only offensive player of all time[who didnt really play defense] who had a GOAT level impact by constantly referencing Magic Johnson. You're doing the very same thing you called others out on. Magic Johnson is the only player in anyone's top ten that didn't play any defense. So you're being a hypocrite here.

And with regards to bringing up Pippen versus Magic the comparison still works out perfectly if you break it down into parts. You have:

Offensive Impact
Defensive Impact
Intangibles[which include ability to motivate/lead, clutch ability, etc]

Magic DESTROYS Pippen in two of those categories.. which is why he's considered a much better player.

In regards to Mourning versus Barkley, Barkley beats Mourning by a fair amount offensively and defensively the gap isn't as large between the two because of Barkley's monster rebounding. Simply put, Barkley's gap in offense is bigger than his gap in defense in comparison to Mourning. Barkley actually had better intangibles too.. better in the clutch.. less of a headcase[didn't get rattled]. So thats two categories he beats Mourning in out of three. The only thing Mourning did better than Barkley was play defense not including rebounding.:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Again, this is my problem with breaking down players like this. The true value of a player can often be lost...or weakened....or some can be over-rated.

Until we realize that some aspects of basketball are more valuable than others, we'll be stuck in this weird area in which you can argue on paper that Pippen is better than Magic or that KG was easily better than Barkley/Dirk. A lot is lost in those breakdowns. Just my opinion though.[/QUOTE]
But its not that simple. Look at the magiic and pippen conversation we had. Honestly, what makes magic a better basketball player than pippen? Let's look at their attributes. They scored about the same even though magic did it in an era that was much more scorer friendly and played in a fast break offense. They rebounded about the same. Pippen was a better athlete. Magics jumpshot was no less or more than pippens. Id even say pippens post game was a little better than johnsons. So what it comes down to is magics passing vs. Pippens defense. We both agree magic was nowhere near the defender pippen was. You even admitted magic was a bad defender and pippen may be the best ever. And while magic is obviously the better passer, pippen was no slouch in that department either. On the dreamteam, pippen led that team in assists not magic. A lot of people feel the assist is the most overrated stat kept in basketball. And some pllayers like oscar robinson, feel that a lot of magics assists wouldn't be counted as assists back in their day. And he was passing to a bunch of players that could fill it up.

So it comes down to accomplishments and the fact that magic led his teams to 5 championships, and he won 3 mvps. Something pippen has no control over cuz his prime and jordans prime coincided with each others. And I just feel you can't fault players for the roles they're put in. But by the same token, magic is and should definately be ranked higher than pippen because magic did accomplish more than pippen did. No matter what the circumstance.

Its like in football. Bo jackson and emmit smith. Who's ranked higher? Smith. He has the ruching title, he has the mvp, the championships etc. But if you were to ask me who the better tailback was? It jackson. Even though he didn't accomoplish nearly the amount of stuff smith did. There's no doubt in my mind that if he didn't split time between baseball and football, and had the samt caliber talent built around him that smith had, and didn't have his career cut short by that injury, he'd probably be the best tailback ever.

[QUOTE=tpols]Not at all..

You were criticizing one of the posters you were arguing with before for using Bill Russel as an example of defense trumping offense.. because he was the only true example of a defensive superstar who had a GOAT level impact.

But then you turn around and use the only offensive player of all time[who didnt really play defense] who had a GOAT level impact by constantly referencing Magic Johnson. You're doing the very same thing you called others out on. Magic Johnson is the only player in anyone's top ten that didn't play any defense. So you're being a hypocrite here.

And with regards to bringing up Pippen versus Magic the comparison still works out perfectly if you break it down into parts. You have:

Offensive Impact
Defensive Impact
Intangibles[which include ability to motivate/lead, clutch ability, etc]

Magic DESTROYS Pippen in two of those categories.. which is why he's considered a much better player.

In regards to Mourning versus Barkley, Barkley beats Mourning by a fair amount offensively and defensively the gap isn't as large between the two because of Barkley's monster rebounding. Simply put, Barkley's gap in offense is bigger than his gap in defense in comparison to Mourning. Barkley actually had better intangibles too.. better in the clutch.. less of a headcase[didn't get rattled]. So thats two categories he beats Mourning in out of three. The only thing Mourning did better than Barkley was play defense not including rebounding.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Good post.

Hakeem vs. Magic from a skills perspective just isn't debatable to me. From the games and footage I've watched, I really don't see how it is. Magic being the better overall player though..isn't something to scoff at either. When we start breaking down intangibles, no matter how difficult it is to quantify them, they [I]need[/I] to be part of the comparison.

[QUOTE=tpols]Not at all..

You were criticizing one of the posters you were arguing with before for using Bill Russel as an example of defense trumping offense.. because he was the only true example of a defensive superstar who had a GOAT level impact.

But then you turn around and use the only offensive player of all time[who didnt really play defense] who had a GOAT level impact by constantly referencing Magic Johnson. You're doing the very same thing you called others out on. Magic Johnson is the only player in anyone's top ten that didn't play any defense. So you're being a hypocrite here.

And with regards to bringing up Pippen versus Magic the comparison still works out perfectly if you break it down into parts. You have:

Offensive Impact
Defensive Impact
Intangibles[which include ability to motivate/lead, clutch ability, etc]

Magic DESTROYS Pippen in two of those categories.. which is why he's considered a much better player.

In regards to Mourning versus Barkley, Barkley beats Mourning by a fair amount offensively and defensively the gap isn't as large between the two because of Barkley's monster rebounding. Simply put, Barkley's gap in offense is bigger than his gap in defense in comparison to Mourning. Barkley actually had better intangibles too.. better in the clutch.. less of a headcase[didn't get rattled]. So thats two categories he beats Mourning in out of three. The only thing Mourning did better than Barkley was play defense not including rebounding.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I was with all the way up until you said magic detroys pippen in the intangibles/clutch area. Pippen has had his share of big games as well as clutch moments. Along with his share of flounders. The same aplies for magic. It just comes down to magic had ample opportunities where as pippen didn't.


As far as mourning/barkley. Barkley was just as much a malcontent as mourning was a headcase. And the only player that really brought that out of mourning was rodman.

But the rest off your post is spot on. There really very few players that are in the top 50 that weren't really two way players.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I was with all the way up until you said magic detroys pippen in the intangibles/clutch area. Pippen has had his share of big games as well as clutch moments. Along with his share of flounders. The same aplies for magic. It just comes down to magic had ample opportunities where as pippen didn't.
[/QUOTE]
We cant start subbing in hypotheticals here.. both Magic and Pippen played on great teams capable of winning titles. Both were very successful. But Magic had many more dominant playoff runs than Pippen and many more clutch moments. He was also a much better leader and motivator.. he talked better and had a more colorful personality. Bullshit on pippen didn't have a chance. Pippen played on title contenders his whole career and never took over to the extent Magic did[and dont give me the MJ excuse because Magic came onto a team with a still prime Kareem and bested him].

Magic Johnson had better intangibles than Scottie Pippen. He was one of the biggest personalities and best talkers the NBA has ever seen.. and his character completely translated onto the court.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]
As far as mourning/barkley. Barkley was just as much a malcontent as mourning was a headcase. And the only player that really brought that out of mourning was rodman. [/QUOTE]

Both were emotional players.. you're right. But Barkley was undoubtedly the better take over player and he was better at carrying teams/playing in the clutch. He was a better intangibles player.

[QUOTE=tpols]We cant start subbing in hypotheticals here.. both Magic and Pippen played on great teams capable of winning titles. Both were very successful. But Magic had many more dominant playoff runs than Pippen and many more clutch moments. He was also a much better leader and motivator.. he talked better and had a more colorful personality. Bullshit on pippen didn't have a chance. Pippen played on title contenders his whole career and never took over to the extent Magic did[and dont give me the MJ excuse because Magic came onto a team with a still prime Kareem and bested him].

Magic Johnson had better intangibles than Scottie Pippen. He was one of the biggest personalities and best talkers the NBA has ever seen.. and his character completely translated onto the court.



Both were emotional players.. you're right. But Barkley was undoubtedly the better take over player and he was better at carrying teams/playing in the clutch. He was a better intangibles player.[/QUOTE]
Magic was definately much more charismatic than pippen ever could've been. But I've had this conversation before. When you say magic had more dominant playoff runs, in what context are you referring to? Statictically? Kinda hard to say that because of the era that magic played in. Taking over games? Magic johnson best playoff game came in his rookie year. Not saying he didn't have some amazing playoff runs but so did pippen. And while its true magic did play with kareem, that wasn't kareem of the 70s. Kareem was in his late 30s when magic became the best player on that team. Pippens prime unfortunately for him happened at the same time jordan had his.

Now you can call it fantasy, conjecture, what if? etc. But your comparing two players that didn't play under the same circumstances. And its funny, cuz this only happens with basketball fans. Boxing fans realize that while mike tyson was probably the most dominant heavy weight ever, he didn't really fight anyone of significance. And thus isn't ranked ahead of ali. Not to mention the pound for pound best fighter which takes into consideration the size of a boxer.

Its widely understood that if barry sanders had emmit smiths line and recievers that he would've obliterated the rushing record book.

Your typical good reciever nowadays catches about 90 balls a year. But we know jerry rice is still the greatest ever. The nfl is just a passing league now.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge the circumstances of basketball players?

[QUOTE=tpols]Not at all..

You were criticizing one of the posters you were arguing with before for using Bill Russel as an example of defense trumping offense.. because he was the only true example of a defensive superstar who had a GOAT level impact.

But then you turn around and use the only offensive player of all time[who didnt really play defense] who had a GOAT level impact by constantly referencing Magic Johnson. You're doing the very same thing you called others out on. Magic Johnson is the only player in anyone's top ten that didn't play any defense. So you're being a hypocrite here.

And with regards to bringing up Pippen versus Magic the comparison still works out perfectly if you break it down into parts. You have:

Offensive Impact
Defensive Impact
Intangibles[which include ability to motivate/lead, clutch ability, etc]

Magic DESTROYS Pippen in two of those categories.. which is why he's considered a much better player.

In regards to Mourning versus Barkley, Barkley beats Mourning by a fair amount offensively and defensively the gap isn't as large between the two because of Barkley's monster rebounding. Simply put, Barkley's gap in offense is bigger than his gap in defense in comparison to Mourning. Barkley actually had better intangibles too.. better in the clutch.. less of a headcase[didn't get rattled]. So thats two categories he beats Mourning in out of three. The only thing Mourning did better than Barkley was play defense not including rebounding.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Not true. That is merely one of my examples. I have listed about 10 others. He can only list one player. And he listed Hakeem. A top ten player ever....absolutely should be compared to an elite player of all time like a magic or bird...or even shaq if you want to get realistic.

Doesn't have to be just magic. I could use Bird as well for that comparison. Or even Jerry West......West vs Hakeem is totally debatable. Which once again proves that individual offense is more important than defense. Nobody would laugh at someone saying jerry west was close to or better than hakeem....or oscar for that matter. All debatable.

I can rattle off a ton of players that fit this...he can only list the GOAT defensive player that played 50 years ago.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]But its not that simple. Look at the magiic and pippen conversation we had. Honestly, what makes magic a better basketball player than pippen? Let's look at their attributes. They scored about the same even though magic did it in an era that was much more scorer friendly and played in a fast break offense. They rebounded about the same. Pippen was a better athlete. Magics jumpshot was no less or more than pippens. Id even say pippens post game was a little better than johnsons. So what it comes down to is magics passing vs. Pippens defense. We both agree magic was nowhere near the defender pippen was. You even admitted magic was a bad defender and pippen may be the best ever. And while magic is obviously the better passer, pippen was no slouch in that department either. On the dreamteam, pippen led that team in assists not magic. A lot of people feel the assist is the most overrated stat kept in basketball. And some pllayers like oscar robinson, feel that a lot of magics assists wouldn't be counted as assists back in their day. And he was passing to a bunch of players that could fill it up.

So it comes down to accomplishments and the fact that magic led his teams to 5 championships, and he won 3 mvps. Something pippen has no control over cuz his prime and jordans prime coincided with each others. And I just feel you can't fault players for the roles they're put in. But by the same token, magic is and should definately be ranked higher than pippen because magic did accomplish more than pippen did. No matter what the circumstance.

Its like in football. Bo jackson and emmit smith. Who's ranked higher? Smith. He has the ruching title, he has the mvp, the championships etc. But if you were to ask me who the better tailback was? It jackson. Even though he didn't accomoplish nearly the amount of stuff smith did. There's no doubt in my mind that if he didn't split time between baseball and football, and had the samt caliber talent built around him that smith had, and didn't have his career cut short by that injury, he'd probably be the best tailback ever.[/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about rankings. I'm talking solely about who I thought the better basketball players were.

I'd take both Magic and Bird quite easily over Hakeem. No doubt Hakeem played significantly better defense. I'd take Shaq over Hakeem as well...quite easily....Hakeem played significantly better defense.

I'd take Barkley over Mourning...easily. I'd take Barkley over David Robinson...although that is close. I'd take Dirk over both of those guys as well.

I'd take thomas and bird and magic and barkley and dirk and west and baylor and a whole host of other players like wade and kobe over pippen...a player in pippen that was probably the best and most complete perimeter defender ever.....along with a very skilled offensive force.

I'd take Barkley and Dirk over Ewing.

I'd take Nash over Payton....close though. But the fact that its close is more evidence that supports my side. How could it be close if defense matters more? Payton is one of the best pg defenders ever...Nash is one of the worst. How could it be close if defense matters more?

i'd take dirk currently over dwight howard. if individual defense matters more...howard should easily be the better player. he's simply not if you are being at all honest with yourself.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Not true. That is merely one of my examples. I have listed about 10 others. He can only list one player. And he listed Hakeem. A top ten player ever....absolutely should be compared to an elite player of all time like a magic or bird...or even shaq if you want to get realistic.

Doesn't have to be just magic. I could use Bird as well for that comparison. Or even Jerry West......West vs Hakeem is totally debatable. Which once again proves that individual offense is more important than defense. Nobody would laugh at someone saying jerry west was better than hakeem....or oscar for that matter. All debatable.

I can rattle off a ton of players that fit this...he can only list the GOAT defensive player that played 50 years ago.[/QUOTE]
Jerry west was known as a very good defender. Bird made the all defense 2nd team 3 times. Your only two players are magic and barkley.

I completely shut you down for 48 minutes.... you score 0 points...

You cant stop me from scoring at least 1 basket during those 48 minutes...

hence... Defense > Offense

:lol

nah.. but seriously.. Offense > Defense... a good defense can never stop a good offense...

if that good defensive team cant score... they can never win...

but.. if that good offensive team cant defend... they can still win... trading baskets if u may...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm not talking about rankings. I'm talking solely about who I thought the better basketball players were.

I'd take both Magic and Bird quite easily over Hakeem. No doubt Hakeem played significantly better defense. I'd take Shaq over Hakeem as well...quite easily....Hakeem played significantly better defense.

I'd take Barkley over Mourning...easily. I'd take Barkley over David Robinson...although that is close. I'd take Dirk over both of those guys as well.

I'd take thomas and bird and magic and barkley and dirk and west and baylor and a whole host of other players like wade and kobe over pippen...a player in pippen that was probably the best and most complete perimeter defender ever.....along with a very skilled offensive force.

I'd take Barkley and Dirk over Ewing.

I'd take Nash over Payton....close though. But the fact that its close is more evidence that supports my side. How could it be close if defense matters more? Payton is one of the best pg defenders ever...Nash is one of the worst. How could it be close if defense matters more?

i'd take dirk currently over dwight howard. if individual defense matters more...howard should easily be the better player. he's simply not if you are being at all honest with yourself.[/QUOTE]
But again, what are you basing your picks on? Id assume winning. And as Catch24 said, that winning has a lot to do with them having the best team in the league.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Jerry west was known as a very good defender. Bird made the all defense 2nd team 3 times. Your only two players are magic and barkley.[/QUOTE]

very good is different from being an all time great defender like the people you are listing.....not to mention that these players you are listing also played great offense as well. especially the centers and pippen and payton. all high high high impact defenders.

guys like bird simply weren't forces defensively like that.

take hakeem vs bird. hakeem's defensive impact was huge....much greater than bird's. and he also was a beast offensively. and i'd take bird....quite easily.

i've given you so many examples and you just refuse them all.

dirk vs howard. nash vs payton. magic/bird/shaq vs hakeem. magic/bird/shaq vs duncan. barkley vs kg/pippen. pippen vs thomas. payton vs thomas. barkley/dirk vs robinson. i could go on and on.

if defense matters more, those defensive players above would simply be much better players.

only magic and barkley? hardly. sorry.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm not talking about rankings. I'm talking solely about who I thought the better basketball players were.

I'd take both Magic and Bird quite easily over Hakeem. No doubt Hakeem played significantly better defense. I'd take Shaq over Hakeem as well...quite easily....Hakeem played significantly better defense.

I'd take Barkley over Mourning...easily. I'd take Barkley over David Robinson...although that is close. I'd take Dirk over both of those guys as well.

I'd take thomas and bird and magic and barkley and dirk and west and baylor and a whole host of other players like wade and kobe over pippen...a player in pippen that was probably the best and most complete perimeter defender ever.....along with a very skilled offensive force.

I'd take Barkley and Dirk over Ewing.

I'd take Nash over Payton....close though. But the fact that its close is more evidence that supports my side. How could it be close if defense matters more? Payton is one of the best pg defenders ever...Nash is one of the worst. How could it be close if defense matters more?

i'd take dirk currently over dwight howard. if individual defense matters more...howard should easily be the better player. he's simply not if you are being at all honest with yourself.[/QUOTE]
good thing nobody really cares about who u would take because you're a phucking moron

[QUOTE=97 bulls]But again, what are you basing your picks on? Id assume winning. And as Catch24 said, that winning has a lot to do with them having the best team in the league.[/QUOTE]

I'm picking them on their ability to play basketball. My opinion of how good those players were.

Are you seriously questioning the validity of saying someone like Dirk or Barkley is better than Robinson or Howard?

Or magic/bird better than Duncan/Hakeem? Or Nash better than Payton. Wade better than Pippen?

I'd lean towards the offensive players in all of them...but at the very least they are debatable. Throw out "winning"....just in terms of being the better basketball player.

Its amazing how much of the true impact of all time great players is lost on here with these absurd breakdowns. I've got people telling me that they "can't see a reason" to say Magic was a better basketball player than Hakeem. I guess you guys feel the same way about Bird.

Kobe vs Hakeem is another absolutely debatable comparison in terms of ability to play. I go with Hakeem, but its not like Hakeem was twice as good or something.

[QUOTE=pauk]I completely shut you down for 48 minutes.... you score 0 points...

You cant stop me from scoring at least 1 basket during those 48 minutes...

hence... Defense > Offense

:lol

nah.. but seriously.. Offense > Defense... a good defense can never stop a good offense...

if that good defensive team cant score... they can never win...

but.. if that good offensive team cant defend... they can still win[/QUOTE]
Both are of equal importance. Maybe another way to put it is that it depends largely on what side of the ball your on.

Even in the clucth. I believe on 82games, the league avg for clutch baskets was in the low 40s. Meaning that the defense wins out more often than not.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm picking them on their ability to play basketball. My opinion of how good those players were.

Are you seriously questioning the validity of saying someone like Dirk or Barkley is better than Robinson or Howard?

Or magic/bird better than Duncan/Hakeem? Or Nash better than Payton. Wade better than Pippen?

I'd lean towards the offensive players in all of them...but at the very least they are debatable. Throw out "winning"....just in terms of being the better basketball player.

Its amazing how much of the true impact of all time great players is lost on here with these absurd breakdowns. I've got people telling me that they "can't see a reason" to say Magic was a better basketball player than Hakeem. I guess you guys feel the same way about Bird.

Kobe vs Hakeem is another absolutely debatable comparison in terms of ability to play. I go with Hakeem, but its not like Hakeem was twice as good or something.[/QUOTE]
Lol how can you throw out winning? You're basing your pov on the consensus ranking of these players. And the rankings are made according to who the best players are. It goes by who has accomplished the most in the nba. Who is the most decorated player. Who's won thee most championships, mvp, dpoys, allnba, alldenfense, the records, etc. All of which are handed out to the BEST PLAYER ON THE BEST TEAMS.

If the league gave the mvp to the best player, jordan would've won it every year from 87 to 98. Lebron james woulldve won it last year over derrick rose.

Also 97 Bulls...you can't just throw out guys like Bird or West because they played a little defense.....

And then turn around and continue to list a bunch of defense players that were also great offensive player. LOL....so lets get this straight. I can only list guys that pretty much solely played offense (who by the way are just as good or better than the guys you are listing)....but you can list of guys like Hakeem and Pippen and Payton and Howard and Mourning...etc. All of those guys play more offense than than the guys I'm listing played defense.

And even with you listing off all time elite defenders that happened to also be great offensive forces. You can't come up with hardly any examples of the defensive guy being better than the offensive guy. LOL

Lets get specific on one comparison. Nash vs Payton. A perfect example of this debate.

Do you think its crazy for someone to say Nash is/was the better player?

Scorers are common, while elite defenders are harder to come by. I know that my team will score through ball movement/screens/second chance points. However, I don't know if my team will be able to contain the other team's players.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Also 97 Bulls...you can't just throw out guys like Bird or West because they played a little defense.....

And then turn around and continue to list a bunch of defense players that were also great offensive player. LOL....so lets get this straight. I can only list guys that pretty much solely played offense (who by the way are just as good or better than the guys you are listing)....but you can list of guys like Hakeem and Pippen and Payton and Howard and Mourning...etc. All of those guys play more offense than than the guys I'm listing played defense.

And even with you listing off all time elite defenders that happened to also be great offensive forces. You can't come up with hardly any examples of the defensive guy being better than the offensive guy. LOL

Lets get specific on one comparison. Nash vs Payton. A perfect example of this debate.

Do you think its crazy for someone to say Nash is/was the better player?[/QUOTE]
Off course not. This is our opinion. You disagree with me and thus we converse.

And to answer your question, in my opinion, payton is better. Is it silly to say nash is better? No. I just want to hear your pov.

But your still going by the consensus ranking of nba players. Let me ask you. Do you think those players are ranked according to talent or accomplishments. And pleasee don't say both because they all are extremely talented.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol how can you throw out winning? You're basing your pov on the consensus ranking of these players. And the rankings are made according to who the best players are. It goes by who has accomplished the most in the nba. Who is the most decorated player. Who's won thee most championships, mvp, dpoys, allnba, alldenfense, the records, etc. All of which are handed out to the BEST PLAYER ON THE BEST TEAMS.

If the league gave the mvp to the best player, jordan would've won it every year from 87 to 98. Lebron james woulldve won it last year over derrick rose.[/QUOTE]

No I'm not. I'm not saying that Dirk/Barkley are better than Robinson because of winning. In fact, Barkley never won anything. I'm going off which players I thought were better.

Its not crazy to think that bird/magic/shaq were just better basketball players than Hakeem. Its not crazy to think Dr. J was about as good as KG. Its not crazy to think Thomas was as good or better than Pippen...and on and on.

Has nothing to do with all time rank for me.

I would have taken Dirk over Howard in 09...had nothing to do with winning. Howard made the Finals and Dirk lost in the 2nd round. I'm not doing that at all. I'm just giving you my opinion on these players. And again, the very fact that they are at least debatable pretty much proves my side.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Off course not. This is our opinion. You disagree with me and thus we converse.

And to answer your question, in my opinion, payton is better. Is it silly to say nash is better? I just want to hear your pov.

But your still going by the consensus ranking of nba players. Let me ask you. Do you think those players are ranked according to talent or accomplishments. And pleasee don't say both because they all are extremely talented.[/QUOTE]

For the last time...I'm not going by any ranking. I'm going by who I think was the better player.

If I had to pick a pg for my team. I'd almost always take Nash over Payton. Just my opinion though. My point is that I can admit its debatable....as should anyone that actually watched them both play. If it is debatable, I don't see how individual defense is more important. Payton is one of the best pg defenders ever....Nash is one of the worst. That is just a fact.

So how could it be debatable given that? And also given that Payton was a damn good offensive player....much beter offensively than Nash was defensively.

Do you think its crazy to say Nash vs Payton as basketball player...forget rankings....is debatable?