Dirk is above KG in the all-time list

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]KG. I mean, he's a top 5 PF. I have him ranked 3rd on my list. His defense, all around game, impact and productiveness are the reason why he gets ranked so high.

When he got decent team mates in Minny, he took them pretty deep into the playoffs and won the MVP. Seriously, it's KG by far. And this is coming from a big Dirk fan.[/QUOTE]
This. Dork has become massively overrated. Dude is nothing more than a one-dimensional chucker. Crappy rebounder (LMAO @ dude only grabbing 8 RPG at PF last year), shitty defender, and a mediocre passer/play-maker.

He's never been the best player in the league or even close.

Hell, he only has a couple years where he's even top 5.

Pretty much every year there are about 4-6 better players than him. :oldlol:

And now I hear he's top 20 ever and better than clearly superior players like Barkley,Malone, and KG. What a joke. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Your assumption isn't based on anything. Kobe was a more efficient player without Shaq than with him.

1. I want to you to use your brain if you are seriously looking at career PER numbers. Use common sense. If we assume both players are equal one player accumulating data at 18 is going to fare worse than a player who starts collecting data at 22.

2. I want you to quantify how playing with one all star, no 6th men award winners, no 1st team all defensive team winners = the most stacked team of the era.

3. I want you to consider a world where Dirk doesn't choke early on his career. Consider the perception of his teammates and his coaches if the Mavs won 5 out 7 rings in the last decade. Your common mistake is equating a result of Dirk's repeated failures as a positive. The Mavs were not favored so blah blah blah. They were the underdog so blah blah blah... The coaching was bad so blah blah blah. No Dirk's failures led to them being labeled as chokers which in term left them unimpressive to the betting public and his multiple award winning coaches had to be the scapegoat.

4. NBA history favors Kobe. :confusedshrug: What do you want me to tell you? Kobe is only behind Kareem and Jordan for the most playoff points scored of all time. Dirk can schedule 10 more one series flameouts against the Warriors (with impressive PER numbers of course :oldlol: ) and it still won't change that.[/QUOTE]
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I like how the Mavs clearly relied on Dirk more but Kobe's usage percentage during the Shaq threepeat in the playoffs is higher than Dirk's CAREER usage percentage in the playoffs.

:oldlol:

I have KG higher, not too much of a gap though.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Your assumption isn't based on anything. Kobe was a more efficient player without Shaq than with him.

1. I want to you to use your brain if you are seriously looking at career PER numbers. Use common sense. If we assume both players are equal one player accumulating data at 18 is going to fare worse than a player who starts collecting data at 22.

2. I want you to quantify how playing with one all star, no 6th men award winners, no 1st team all defensive team winners = the most stacked team of the era.

3. I want you to consider a world where Dirk doesn't choke early on his career. Consider the perception of his teammates and his coaches if the Mavs won 5 out 7 rings in the last decade. Your common mistake is equating a result of Dirk's repeated failures as a positive. The Mavs were not favored so blah blah blah. They were the underdog so blah blah blah... The coaching was bad so blah blah blah. No Dirk's failures led to them being labeled as chokers which in term left them unimpressive to the betting public and his multiple award winning coaches had to be the scapegoat.

4. NBA history favors Kobe. :confusedshrug: What do you want me to tell you? Kobe is only behind Kareem and Jordan for the most playoff points scored of all time. Dirk can schedule 10 more one series flameouts against the Warriors (with impressive PER numbers of course :oldlol: ) and it still won't change that.[/QUOTE]

You are completely changing the argument....which is standard.

Has Kobe not had repeated failures in the playoffs? We've been over them all. And they can be directly related to his play. Dirk? Not so much. You have the Warriors series....but really that is the only true failure for Dirk's career.

Kobe has plenty. You call him a 5 time champion and ignore circumstances...again...standard.

This is about scoring in the playoffs. That is what i've been talking about. I don't see any scoring/offensive measures that lead to the conclusion that Kobe is in a different league than Dirk as a scorer.

Dirk beats him across the board in everything if you compare their entire playoff careers. We don't do that though because kobe deserves special treatment....again..standard.

So what do we find when we go 10 best vs 10 best? That while Kobe scores 2 more ppg, he needed 2 to 3 more shots per game to get that. He needed 3 to 4 more possessions when you factor in his higher turnover rate and much worse ft shooting. So Dirk scores 2 less ppg while beating Kobe solidly in overall efficiency and all offensive ratings such as otrg and offensive win shares. Dirk also beats Kobe all time in playoff PER....not that big of a deal, but yet another measure that favors dirk.

So I'm really not sure what ring count has to do with this...or the fact that you are still so lost that you think dirk was ever a choker. Or the fact that you ignore Kobe's spotty at best history in the playoffs of laying down in elimination games and coming up extremely small in the finals for a player of his stature. Putting forth one of the worst finals performances by a star player ever.

But again, you have changed the argument to a ring count...as usual...because you lost.

Nothing supports Kobe being a better playoffs scorer than Dirk....even when you chop off 29% of Kobe's playoff career....LOL

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You are completely changing the argument....which is standard.

Has Kobe not had repeated failures in the playoffs? We've been over them all. And they can be directly related to his play. Dirk? Not so much. You have the Warriors series....but really that is the only true failure for Dirk's career.

Kobe has plenty. You call him a 5 time champion and ignore circumstances...again...standard.

This is about scoring in the playoffs. That is what i've been talking about. I don't see any scoring/offensive measures that lead to the conclusion that Kobe is in a different league than Dirk as a scorer.

Dirk beats him across the board in everything if you compare their entire playoff careers. We don't do that though because kobe deserves special treatment....again..standard.

So what do we find when we go 10 best vs 10 best? That while Kobe scores 2 more ppg, he needed 2 to 3 more shots per game to get that. He needed 3 to 4 more possessions when you factor in his higher turnover rate and much worse ft shooting. So Dirk scores 2 less ppg while beating Kobe solidly in overall efficiency and all offensive ratings such as otrg and offensive win shares. Dirk also beats Kobe all time in playoff PER....not that big of a deal, but yet another measure that favors dirk.

So I'm really not sure what ring count has to do with this...or the fact that you are still so lost that you think dirk was ever a choker. Or the fact that you ignore Kobe's spotty at best history in the playoffs of laying down in elimination games and coming up extremely small in the finals for a player of his stature. Putting forth one of the worst finals performances by a star player ever.

But again, you have changed the argument to a ring count...as usual...because you lost.

Nothing supports Kobe being a better playoffs scorer than Dirk....even when you chop off 29% of Kobe's playoff career....LOL[/QUOTE]

Scorer has always meant scoring points and has never meant high percentages . :confusedshrug: Your beef is with the common vernacular used in the sport.

Who is considered the greatest scorer in playoff history?

Michael Jordan, Raja Bell or Dwight Howard?

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Scorer has always meant scoring points and has never meant high percentages . :confusedshrug: Your beef is with the common vernacular used in the sport.

Who is considered the greatest scorer in playoff history?

Michael Jordan, Raja Bell or Dwight Howard?[/QUOTE]

Its actually both. Its about how many points your score and at what efficiency you score them. Your problem is that you are just too stubborn to admit both matter.

And if they don't? Fine.....

Dirk 25.9 ppg in the playoffs
Kobe 25.4 ppg in the playoffs

You just said...."its about scoring points"

Well, Dirk scores more points per game in the playoffs. Just a fact. So you readily admit that Dirk is the better playoff scorer then...right?

But you won't, there will be some bs about chopping years off Kobe's career or how efficiency doesn't matter...or shaq stole shots...even though kobe was still getting up more shots than dirk ever was while he played with shaq.

kobe is the only player that needs to 30% of his career chopped off to win an argument. and even if we chop it off. he's still not any better than dirk. thats the sad thing.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Its actually both. Its about how many points your score and at what efficiency you score them. Your problem is that you are just too stubborn to admit both matter.

And if they don't? Fine.....

Dirk 25.9 ppg in the playoffs
Kobe 25.4 ppg in the playoffs

You just said...."its about scoring points"

Well, Dirk scores more points per game in the playoffs. Just a fact. So you readily admit that Dirk is the better playoff scorer then...right?

But you won't, there will be some bs about chopping years off Kobe's career or how efficiency doesn't matter...or shaq stole shots...even though kobe was still getting up more shots than dirk ever was while he played with shaq.

kobe is the only player that needs to 30% of his career chopped off to win an argument. and even if we chop it off. he's still not any better than dirk. thats the sad thing.[/QUOTE]

From 18-20

Dirk's playoff average 0.0 ppg over 0 games
Kobe's playoff average 8.5 ppg over 20 games


From 20-22

Dirk's playoff average 0.0 ppg over 0 games
Kobe's playoff average 20.5 ppg over 30 games

From 22-32

Dirk's playoff average = 25.9 ppg over 124 games
Kobe's playoff average= 28.6 ppg over 158 games

:bowdown: to the amazing Dirk :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]From 18-20

Dirk's playoff average 0.0 ppg over 0 games
Kobe's playoff average 8.5 ppg over 20 games


From 20-22

Dirk's playoff average 0.0 ppg over 0 games
Kobe's playoff average 20.5 ppg over 30 games

From 22-32

Dirk's playoff average = 25.9 ppg over 124 games
Kobe's playoff average= 28.6 ppg over 158 games

:bowdown: to the amazing Dirk :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

i get 28.4 ppg over that time. removing 4 years for kobe and 0 for dirk.

i think its only fair to at least remove one year for dirk. which brings his total just over 26 ppg.

and then of course you ignore the efficiency measures. in that time, kobe has had one playoff run over 57.7% TS....Dirk averaged right at 58.5% TS over his 10 years. Dirk had 7 playoff runs over over Kobe's highest efficiency mark.

So again, Kobe is scoring slightly over 2 ppg more after chopping off 30% of his playoff career. And he loses out to dirk in every efficiency category in addition to offensive rating and offensive win shares.

lol...the amazing kobe.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]i get 28.4 ppg over that time. removing 4 years for kobe and 0 for dirk.

i think its only fair to at least remove one year for dirk. which brings his total just over 26 ppg.

and then of course you ignore the efficiency measures. in that time, kobe has had one playoff run over 57.7% TS....Dirk averaged right at 58.5% TS over his 10 years. Dirk had 7 playoff runs over over Kobe's highest efficiency mark.

So again, Kobe is scoring slightly over 2 ppg more after chopping off 30% of his playoff career. And he loses out to dirk in every efficiency category in addition to offensive rating and offensive win shares.

lol...the amazing kobe.[/QUOTE]


The difference is your just playing with numbers because you are butthurt at the results. I'm trying to make a reasonable conclusion from them. If its above your comprehension why a teenage NBAer playing 17 mins a game will drag down career per game numbers and would need to be accounted for then I genuinely feel sorry for you.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]The difference is your just playing with numbers because you are butthurt at the results. I'm trying to make a reasonable conclusion from them. If its above your comprehension why a teenage NBAer playing 17 mins a game will drag down career per game numbers and would need to be accounted for then I genuinely feel sorry for you.[/QUOTE]

what are you talking about? I removed Kobe's first four years already.

the conclusion is simple. kobe scores slightly over 2ppg more on worse overall efficiency. that is the conclusion.

it takes kobe anywhere from 3 to 4 more possessions to score those extra points.

every measure favors dirk outside of those 2 ppg over the 10 year period you want to compare.

so basically you think that efficiency should not be counted at all in scoring. if that is your stance...fine. just know what you are saying.....

Peak:
Kobe--35.4 PPG/56% TS
Dork--26.6 PPG/59% TS

2nd-best Peak
Kobe--32 PPG/58% TS
Dork-- 26 PPG/58% TS

30+ PPG seasons
Kobe--3
Dork--0

28+ PPG seasons
Kobe--6
Dork--0

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0

Career High--
Kobe--81
Dork--50
Damn. Dork getting shitted on.

Post-season:
29 PPG+--
Kobe--6
Dork--0

30+ PPG+
Kobe--4
Dork--0

30+ point games-
Kobe--80
Dork--44

lol. Kobe is easily better. Top 5 scorer ever. :bowdown:

Dork ain't even top 10. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]what are you talking about? I removed Kobe's first four years already.

the conclusion is simple. kobe scores slightly over 2ppg more on worse overall efficiency. that is the conclusion.

it takes kobe anywhere from 3 to 4 more possessions to score those extra points.

every measure favors dirk outside of those 2 ppg over the 10 year period you want to compare.

so basically you think that efficiency should not be counted at all in scoring. if that is your stance...fine. just know what you are saying.....[/QUOTE]

That's not my stance. That's the stance of NBA history. I love these stat guys with their heads in the sand. Google Iverson and "greatest scorer" some time to welcome yourself back to Earth.

Yeah, Kobe averaging not even 24 against an old and hobbling JKidd was almost as impressive as his negative assists-to-turnovers ratio.

[IMG]https://i.minus.com/iQ6ou02shkXUZ.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]That's not my stance. That's the stance of NBA history. I love these stat guys with their heads in the sand. Google Iverson and "greatest scorer" some time to welcome yourself back to Earth.[/QUOTE]

You are confusing "greatest" with "explosive"

Kobe is definitely a more "explosive" scorer than Dirk in the playoffs. He's just not any better overall. its the law of averages. his averages are there for a reason. you can't just focus on the 35 point games and ignore all the other games that have driven his average down. sorry.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You are confusing "greatest" with "explosive"

Kobe is definitely a more "explosive" scorer than Dirk in the playoffs. He's just not any better overall. its the law of averages. his averages are there for a reason. you can't just focus on the 35 point games and ignore all the other games that have driven his average down. sorry.[/QUOTE]

I already told you the reason. He started getting playoff stats in his teens. He was playing 17 mins a game for two years. Its not rocket science. Dirk only started collecting playoff stats when he was 22. Among the top 6 ppg seasons in the playoffs among the two Kobe has not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5 but all 6 of them.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Among the top 6 ppg seasons in the playoffs among the two Kobe has not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5 but all 6 of them.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

More ether. Just shitting all over that moron.

:roll:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]I already told you the reason. He started getting playoff stats in his teens. He was playing 17 mins a game for two years. Its not rocket science. Dirk only started collecting playoff stats when he was 22. Among the top 6 ppg seasons in the playoffs among the two Kobe has not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5 but all 6 of them.[/QUOTE]

Kobe's teen years aren't even being counted. What are you talking about? We chopped off 30% of Kobe's playoff career to appease you and your fellow stans.

And the results were simple. Kobe edges Dirk on roughly 2 ppg over that 10 year period. Kobe needed somewhere around 3 to 4 more possessions to score those extra 2 points. Dirk beats kobe in every efficiency category and offensive rating and offensive win shares.

So I don't see how over that period (that you wanted to use) that you can claim Kobe is on another level as a scorer. Again, averages are averages for a reason. And its very easy to see why Kobe averaged a little over 2 more points per game during that time. He took more shots and used up more possessions.

Sorry. Scoring 2 more ppg than another player on worse efficiency across the board over a decade does not make one player on another level...that is absurd. Especially in this case where both players are great at the end of games and have been the main option or a main option their entire careers. Absolutely an apples to apples comparison. Same conference. Same era.

And the stats are nearly identical.

Kobe is the better scorer in the PS and RS season. It's not a big gap. I don't agree with the guy who said he's in "another universe" at all because Dirk is a top 10 scorer [I]ever[/I], but it's pretty clear imo that Bryant is better, even if it is by a small degree.

I think that's fair.

/thread

So lets see how this plays:

Iverson vs Kobe...

Who is the better playoff scorer? How about T-Mac vs Kobe?

[QUOTE=King24]Kobe is the better scorer in the PS and RS season. It's not a big gap. I don't agree with the guy who said he's in "another universe" at all because Dirk is a top 10 scorer [I]ever[/I], but it's pretty clear imo that Bryant is better, even if it is by a small degree.

I think that's fair.

/thread[/QUOTE]
Nice post. Repped on refill.

Kobe is easily a better scorer than A.I or T-Mac. Beats them in TS% and a pretty clear edge in volume, especially at his peak. In fact, his 05-07 stretch destroys anything those two have ever done, just like it destroys anything Dork has ever done. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Kobe is easily a better scorer than A.I or T-Mac. Beats them in TS% and a pretty clear edge in volume, especially at his peak. In fact, his 05-07 stretch destroys anything those two have ever done, just like it destroys anything Dork has ever done. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee458/sgtpepper22/th_Lookingup.gif[/IMG]
Ahh.. the fallacy of a Kobe n[u]u[/u]thugger. A couple of pages ago, being the better scorer was defined as having a higher ppg. Well, logic plus kobesexual does not compute.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Kobe is easily a better scorer than A.I or T-Mac. Beats them in TS% and a pretty clear edge in volume, especially at his peak. In fact, his 05-07 stretch destroys anything those two have ever done, just like it destroys anything Dork has ever done. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Iverson averages more ppg than Kobe did in the playoffs by a pretty wide margin....even if you erase Kobe's first 4 years.

why is ts% important now? you said it didn't matter when Dirk trumps Kobe by a pretty big margin of 4%.

makes absolutely no sense.

we all know you'd rather have kobe scoring the ball than iverson because of efficiency. kobe's better efficiency trumps iverson's 2 or so more ppg in the playoffs prime vs prime. just not sure why that has to be ignored when other players are more efficient than kobe.

Not every Kobe "fan" is the same person. :facepalm

Iverson top 5 =

32.9
31.7
31.2
30.0
28.5

Kobe top 5=

32.8
32.1
30.2
30.1
29.4

:confusedshrug: looks pretty close to me.

If you take Kobe's PPM average and equate it to Iverson's avg minutes you get Iverson 29.7 Kobe 29.1 . Take the same age range as Iverson's numbers 23-32 and Id bet Kobe beats him on a per minute basis.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

why is ts% important now? you said it didn't matter when Dirk trumps Kobe by a pretty big margin of 4%.

.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

Kobe has A.I equaled in terms of volume and a huge edge in TS%. He does it over longer runs,too. Dirk doesn't have as big a gap in terms of TS% over prime Kobe and is easily beat in terms of volume. Not to mention Kobe has played more games against better defenses.

Just face it. Kobe>Dirk as a scorer. Accept the truth. :facepalm

[QUOTE=creepingdeath][IMG]http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee458/sgtpepper22/th_Lookingup.gif[/IMG]
Ahh.. the fallacy of a Kobe n[u]u[/u]thugger. A couple of pages ago, being the better scorer was defined as having a higher ppg. Well, logic plus kobesexual does not compute.[/QUOTE]
Except Kobe has better/equal PPG numbers over a much larger sample size and a clear edge in TS%.Dirk's volume isn't really close to Bryant's and the TS% gap isn't as large prime-vs-prime. lol @ this Kobe-hating phaggett! :oldlol:

[QUOTE=King24]Kobe is the better scorer in the PS and RS season. It's not a big gap. I don't agree with the guy who said he's in "another universe" at all because Dirk is a top 10 scorer [I]ever[/I], but it's pretty clear imo that Bryant is better, even if it is by a small degree.

I think that's fair.

/thread[/QUOTE]
jacks3 is this ur serious account bro?

KG on Dirk's teams from '00-'08? How many championships we talking here...

[QUOTE=Fatal9]KG on Dirk's teams from '00-'08? How many championships we talking here...[/QUOTE]
i dont know bro.meet me at dixie and dundas tomorrow at 3:30 n ima tell u

[QUOTE=Fatal9]KG on Dirk's teams from '00-'08? How many championships we talking here...[/QUOTE]

Who is gonna take every big shot for the Mavericks during those runs? Kevin Garnett? He shies away from the clutch and cannot be relied upon. Michael Finley? Pre-Suns Steve Nash? Jason Terry? Josh Howard? Please.

Kevin Garnett only has a championship because he had two of the better clutch performers in the league on his team. He wouldn't have made more than WCF with Dirk's squads, they just weren't that stacked. Garnett needs someone to take the pressure off of him in the clutch, without that he would always come up short.

So this has turned into a Kobe vs. Dirk debate? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Fatal9]KG on Dirk's teams from '00-'08? How many championships we talking here...[/QUOTE]

50/50 in 03....had to get by duncan and the spurs.....i'd give a slight edge to the spurs, but is close to a coin flip

i don't think they have a chance in 04/05

very slim chance in 06...i doubt they could get by the spurs. just don't see kg doing what dirk did in that series...especially the last 4 games.

really good chance in 07.....i think they probably beat the warriors and make the wcf...but again, those spurs are waiting and that is probably close to another coin flip

no chance the rest of the years....no way could any version of KG lead a team like the 11 mavs to a title.

generous estimate? 2
most likely? 0 or 1

3-4. KG is a much better player.

[QUOTE=Inception28]So this has turned into a Kobe vs. Dirk debate? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/20599/this%20thread.thumbnail.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Except Kobe has better/equal PPG numbers over a much larger sample size and a clear edge in TS%.Dirk's volume isn't really close to Bryant's and the TS% gap isn't as large prime-vs-prime. lol @ this Kobe-hating phaggett! :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

kobe's volume is a laughable 2 ppg better over his 10 best years compared to dirk.

i love how its a moving target all the time. now its top 5 years vs top 5 years....LOL

[QUOTE=Jacks3]3-4. KG is a much better player.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

It's true.

KG=Top 15 player ever.

Dork=Not even top 20.

Hell, he may not even be top 25.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]It's true.

KG=Top 15 player ever.

Dork=Not even top 20.

Hell, he may not even be top 25.[/QUOTE]

the rankings are fine with me....i just disagree.

but saying KG could have led the mavs to 4 titles from 00 to 08 is just laughable. sorry.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]the rankings are fine with me....i just disagree.

but saying KG could have led the mavs to 4 titles from 00 to 08 is just laughable. sorry.[/QUOTE]

I dont think he would have gotten 4 titles, but I think if you put KG on those teams that Dirk had, I think the Mavs have a better shot at winning titles than with Dirk. That doesnt make him a better player. I just think the balance of defense KG would have brought to those teams would have been huge.