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[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Kobe is a better shooter, better off ball defender and just as good in one on one situations, plus his post game is all time nasty.[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
you do know kobe shot .43%, right? 40 year old MJ shot .445%!!!!!
and i'm not even gonna comment on 'better off ball defender' nonsense.
1 on 1 situation? lol :coleman:
post game is all time nasty? that's it. i've heard enough!!
[QUOTE=Rake2204]To be fair, oftentimes actual blocked shots are just a small part of what makes having a Hall of Fame center in the middle so effective. Even from my lame basketball playing history of going against relatively unathletic 6'9'' guys, sometimes just having them there is enough to at least make a player think twice about both when they're going to choose to attack and how they're going to attack.
For instance, if Joel Anthony was waiting in the paint for Westbrook, I think a relentless attack would be at the forefront of Russell's mind. However, placing a 7'1'' Patrick Ewing or David Robinson back there (big men who actually had significant skills) would surely have to alter how Westbrook was going to attack. If he attempted to challenge those two just as he would a 6'9'' scrub, I feel as though his wild shot attempts would spike significantly. That's not to say he'd be shut down 100% of the time, but it's just not as simple as "Westbrook blow by Stockton, Westbrook dunk, get fouled, or get blocked". The big thing missing is, "Westbrook must pull up, change shot, retain dribble and escape elsewhere, or force bad shot into contact." Elite big man effects go well beyond block or foul.[/QUOTE]
It can't be both ways. You guys cant paint the picture of Westbrook being a me first, shoot everything, drive no matter what PG and then turn around and say that he'll be afraid of D-Rob and Ewing. This is basketball and he's an athletic freak, he isn't afraid of any big man. They will alter some shots but lets be real, they will also foul, get caught in between two guys with no help and maybe even embarrassed.
Westbrook has never been timid or not aggressive. His decision making is suspect at times, but that's about it. He will find people and can destroy a defense with his penetration.
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Bolded= trolling. There is no way that Jordan is better in every facet of the damn game in comparison to Kobe.[/quote]
Where did I say that? Kobe is a better 3 point shooter and has better isolation handles simply due to his generation's upbringing (i.e., Jordan would have similar handles if he was born in '79-'82), though Jordan had better functional handles in a game setting for various reason. That's about it for Kobe, yeah. Everything else is Jordan, in many cases by a significant margin (off the ball play, rebounding, and bball IQ in particular).
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Westbrook, the most athletic PG ever, would do some unspeakable things to Magic and Stock.[/QUOTE]
You clearly didn't watch John Stockton in his prime...
1989-1992 The man led the league in assists and steals.....he had quickness, he played the passing lanes better than anyone in the NBA....
Against Westbrooks sloppy arse he would have averaged 10 steals a game....:lol
[QUOTE=tpols]Kobe is the better man defender, not help defender, and Kobe is better in the post and in pure 1v1 situations like you said.[/QUOTE]
off ball isnt help defense in my book. I meant like denying the ball from perimeter players and such.
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Mr 4 fer 20 in game 5 against Chalmers is gonna light up Magic and Stockton?
[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/sarcastic/grand/sarcastic-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-226.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I love that gif yo HAHAHAHAHA
Why are so many people doing the whole "comparing '92 Dream Team player to '12 player who he's most similar to or most likely to be matched up with"?
It doesn't work like that. Yes, at the end, if one team has the advantage in 7-8 of the 12 match-ups, then odds are they are goig to win, but not aways. The 1992 would win and is the better team for different reasons. They have more depth and versatility. Like rake said, they have Jordan, Pippen, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, D-Rob, Clyde, Barkley, and Mullin in the prime of HOF careers. The only players from the 2012 team that you can say are in the prime of a HOF career is LeBron, probably Durant (I guess he could suffer a career ending injury tomorrow and is HOF status would be in question), and maybe Paul. Kobe is a HOFer (obviously) but he's not in his prime and it's too soon to say with Love.
Oh, and quit using Larry Bird to back a '92 team argument. He could barely walk and barely played. If we're going to exclude injured guys like Wade and Howard from the 2012 team, and say Kobe is 34 and no longer in his prime, then there's no point in using Bird to make the '92 team look stronger. Sure, he'd be effective 5-10 minutes a game as a spot-up sniper but he'd be a major liability on defense unless you tried to hide him by playing zone.
[quote]Kobe is a student of the game and has learned a lot of from MJ, but he's also made some things on his own as well. I don't understand how you can look at the two players and think in a head to head matchup, both in their primes, Kobe is 10% away from Jordan. That's the very definition of trolling. [/quote]
No, it isn't - it's called reality. Do yourself a favor and watch some '90-'92 Jordan and say with a straight face that Kobe's ever been within 10% in terms of impact on games. 90% of Jordan is nearly prime Magic/Bird level, but Kobe is slightly below them - being 90% of Jordan doesn't make you some scrub. It makes you one of the 10-15 best players of all time at a minimum.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]No, it isn't - it's called reality. Do yourself a favor and watch some '90-'92 Jordan and say with a straight face that Kobe's ever been within 10% in terms of impact on games. [B] 90% of Jordan is nearly prime Magic/Bird level, but Kobe is slightly below them - being 90% of Jordan doesn't make you some scrub. It makes you one of the 10-15 best players of all time at a minimum.[/B][/QUOTE]
:biggums:
lol @ Kobe being a better off ball defender and post player than Jordan. Now I've heard everything. :oldlol: ****ing kids...
[QUOTE=Raz]CT: Ewing/ Robinson/ Laettner
PF: Barkley/ Malone
SF: Pippen/ Bird/ Mullin
SG: Jordan/ Drexler
PG: Johnson/ Stockton
CT: Chandler/ Love
PF: James/ Iguodala/ Griffin
SF: Durant/ Anthony
SG: Bryant/ Harden
PG: Paul/ Williams/ Westbrook
First thing that comes to mind is that absolutely no one on the current team can guard Charles Barkley. He's going to score almost every time he touches the ball. He shot 71% from the field. That's right, 71%. Jordan could make life difficult for anyone in the 2012 team's backcourt. Pippen and Malone could guard LeBron on different areas of the court, and when the 2012 tries LeBron and center, D-Rob would have been fast enough to keep up with him.
[B]The only weakness for the Dream Team was point guard, due to Stockton being injured, and Magic being slower.[/B] Pippen played a lot of point guard though, and excelled. Frankly, if Stockton is healthy, he and Pippen would ruin Paul, Williams and Westbrook.[/QUOTE]
This.
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]:biggums:[/QUOTE]
I know right.:oldlol:
Magic had more impact on 5v5 basketball games than Jordan could ever dream of.
[QUOTE=rhythmic
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Kobe is a better shooter, better off ball defender and just as good in one on one situations, [B]plus his post game is all time nasty.[/B][/QUOTE]
So you either weren't alive, in a coma, or didn't watch the NBA in the mid to late 90's. Second 3-peat Jordan was a beast in the post.
[QUOTE=KG215]So you either weren't alive, in a coma, or didn't watch the NBA in the mid to late 90's. Second 3-peat Jordan was a beast in the post.[/QUOTE]
Now please refer me to where I said Jordan was garbage in the post.
Talking on the internet is disjointed for some reason.
It's clear at that point I was just pointing out how great Kobe's post game is. Keep assuming that I'm ignorant though.
[QUOTE=tontoz]
Who shuts down Deron, the guy who shot 40.7% this year? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
LMAOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]He finds cutting big men on the regular for OKC, but now that he's playing with better big men he wont?
With the way you guys talk about him, I wonder how he gets assists.[/QUOTE]
He gets only 5.5 assists in 35 minutes and that is with the NBA's leading scorer on his team. :lol
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Kobe is a better shooter, better off ball defender and just as good in one on one situations, plus his post game is all time nasty.[/QUOTE]
Better off ball defender? Wtf where are u getting this shit from
[QUOTE=tontoz]He gets only 5.5 assists in 35 minutes and that is with the NBA's leading scorer on his team. :lol[/QUOTE]
Now we are using assists to say that Westbrook can't pass to cutting big men.
Wow, I'm done here.
[QUOTE=Linspired]did you just said ewing & blake is nice even match up? and has an 'edge' on defensive end? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
that's the funniest thing i've ever heard!!! blake couldn't do a damn thing about 50 year old tim duncan!!!!
ewing would make blake cry like a little baby! i mean we are talking about 29 year old ewing here!! what's going on in this board! ewing was a filthy animal!![/QUOTE]
Dude did you read??? I said Ewing has the edge on the defensive end...
[QUOTE=juju151111]Better off ball defender? Wtf where are u getting this shit from[/QUOTE]
You right, I'm crazy. Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe.
Boring.
[QUOTE=tontoz]He gets only 5.5 assists in 35 minutes and that is with the NBA's leading scorer on his team. :lol[/QUOTE]
I know Point Guards that have come off the bench and gotten more assists than that :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]You right, I'm crazy. Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobe.
Boring.[/QUOTE]
I never said that he was that much better. I said where u got that Kobe is a better offbsll defender.
[QUOTE=BigBalla44]Whole article from AP:
[url]http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jnqI0mWVmLpGfg-58_R1V1VkHAGQ?docId=e4b4e851e72d44c99cbe84ef7b3ce7d2[/url]
Would you say the bolded words from the last paragraph is a subtle shot at Kobe?[/QUOTE]
Kobe saying the Original Dream Team was not athletic has to be one of the dumbest things ever said...how is Jordan, Pippen, Drexler, Robinson, Barkley running the fast break not athletic?
If Team USA didn't have that retarded option of giving Laettner the 12 spot and instead included Shaq as a rookie, that team would be even more untouchable
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Now please refer me to where I said Jordan was garbage in the post.
Talking on the internet is disjointed for some reason.
It's clear at that point I was just pointing out [B]how great Kobe's post game [/B]is. Keep assuming that I'm ignorant though.[/QUOTE]
If Kobe's post game is so great then why did he take 14 shots per game from 16+ feet this season?
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Now we are using assists to say that Westbrook can't pass to cutting big men.
Wow, I'm done here.[/QUOTE]
You seen his assist to turnover ratio? That has got to be the highest in history......
That entire Dream Team....would have a flipping field day with the turnovers from the sloppy "new style" game of the 2000's.....Russell Westbrook would be benched...for his turnovers...
John Stockton 1st all time
Michael Jordan 3rd all time
Scottie Pippen 6th all time
Clyde Drexler 7th all time
Karl Malone 10th all time
Magic Johnson 15th all time
Charles Barkley 20th all time
[QUOTE=tontoz]If Kobe's post game is so great then why did he take 14 shots per game from 16+ feet this season?[/QUOTE]
Because he had Bynum and Gasol clogging the paint.
Kobe didnt say the 92 team wasn't athletic, he said some of the key guys were a little older.
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Kobe is a better shooter, better off ball defender and just as good in one on one situations, plus his post game is all time nasty.[/QUOTE]
Better shooter, yes. But better off ball defender and post game (which I'm assuming you are implying since you mentioned it. And just cause he's all-time great doesn't mean he's better)? No, and its truly spoken as someone that must've never watched them both play. No one that has watched both has ever made that claim :oldlol:
Do yourself a favor and stop trying to argue about a comparison you know little about.
I seriously laugh at people who act like Magic was finished. He led the Lakers to the NBA finals the year before the olympics, while averaging 19.4 points, 12.5 assists, and 7.0 rebounds per game (he did not become a scrub in one year because of HIV). Even a fat Magic, years without playing pro ball, averaged 14.6, 5.7 and 6.9 in 96.
Magic Johnson in 91 (he became crap one year later? nah) was a better point guard than Chris Paul ever was.
And Larry Bird, even with a broken back, was still a great player. He averaged 20.2 ppg, 9.6 rpg and 6.8 apg in the 92 season (with 46% fg, 40%3 and 92%ft). I'd take that broken Bird over guys like Anthony, Iguodala and Harden.
You can talk about their lack of defensive ability by then, but for that, you had guys like Pippen.
This current team is not even better than the 08 team who had prime Kobe, Lebron, Wade and a real great center in Dwight Howard.
92 > 96 > 2008 > this team
Am I the only one who believes that the Redeem Team > 12' Team? The comparison should be Redeem Team vs Dream Team.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Because he had Bynum and Gasol clogging the paint.
Kobe didnt say the 92 team wasn't athletic, [B]he said some of the key guys were a little older.[/B][/QUOTE]
Which is ironic considering he's 33 going on 34 with shot knees and just put up his worst shooting percentages since he was a teenager.
The only player on the '12 team the dream team would be worried about is Lebron, and possibly KD in terms of matchups. Tyson Chandler is a solid defender, but he gets herbed by Robinson and Ewing.
[QUOTE=TheNaturalWR]Am I the only one who believes that the Redeem Team > 12' Team? The comparison should be Redeem Team vs Dream Team.[/QUOTE]
agreed
[QUOTE=Callystarr]
Patrick Ewing 24.0points - 11.2reb - 1.0stl, 3.0blk, .522FG%
VS.
Blake Griffin 20.7points - 10.9reb - 3.2ast, .549FG%
***Pretty nice even matchup, Patrick had the edge on the defensive end.
Larry Bird 20.2points - 9.6reb - 6.8ast - .406/3PT
VS.
Lebron James 27.1points - 7.9reb - 6.2ast - 1.9stl - .531FG%
***This is actually a good matchup up of individuals who can work both ends of the floor. Larry the better shooter, and puts up equally impressive overall stats. What is crazy, is Larry put those stats up in his FINAL year in the NBA. I doubt that many players will be able to put up stats like that after 12 plus years...
[/QUOTE]
While some of your match-ups aren't as close or closer than you think, these two stuck out the most.
Nice even match-up between Griffin and Ewing? Really? Prime Patrick Ewing and second year Blake Griffin is a nice even match-up? Just because they have similar stats doesn't make it an even match-up. This particular hypothetical match-up is one of the easiest ones on your list to say "hands down advantage to the '92 team."
And past his prime on his way out of the league Magic makes you "no comment" when compared to prime CP3, but 35 year old, back injured so bad he can barely walk and barely play Larry Bird, is actually a "good match-up" compared to prime LeBron? On what planet?
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Which is ironic considering he's 33 going on 34 with shot knees and just put up his worst shooting percentages since he was a teenager.
[/QUOTE]
And was still one of the best players in the league.
[QUOTE=Callystarr]Dude did you read??? I said Ewing has the edge on the defensive end...[/QUOTE]
He has a huge edge on the offensive end, too.
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]It can't be both ways. You guys cant paint the picture of Westbrook being a me first, shoot everything, drive no matter what PG and then turn around and say that he'll be afraid of D-Rob and Ewing. This is basketball and he's an athletic freak, he isn't afraid of any big man. They will alter some shots but lets be real, they will also foul, get caught in between two guys with no help and maybe even embarrassed.
Westbrook has never been timid or not aggressive. His decision making is suspect at times, but that's about it. He will find people and can destroy a defense with his penetration.[/QUOTE]
Oh I like Russell Westbrook as a player. I haven't bought into the me-first assumptions about him I always see going around. Debating on that front would be a separate matter to me. I think he's a killer and when his jump shot was falling, we all saw how ugly it could get for his opponents.
However, I also feel the entire '92 Dream Team was comprised of killers, with David Robinson and Patrick Ewing as two historically awesome defensive killers. I don't think Westbrook would have been scared. I'm just saying my belief is he would not have carved up the paint as effectively as we saw in his Finals performance against the Heat. I'm saying yes, blocks happen, scores happen, facials happen, charges happen, and fouls happen, but a flat out disturbance of flow and the manner with which a player is able to attack (or not attack) is not to be underestimated. And I feel an international team playing under international rules featuring prime version of David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, Scottie Pippen, and Michael Jordan would likely have an adverse effect on Westbrook's attacking skills, regardless of how fearless he'd be. It'd certainly not be as simple as Westbrook just walking past his perimeter defender, getting a run up deep into the lane, hitting a late recovering David Robinson in the chest then drawing a foul or scoring.
[QUOTE=TheNaturalWR]Am I the only one who believes that the Redeem Team > 12' Team? The comparison should be Redeem Team vs Dream Team.[/QUOTE]
No, and I'm pretty sure there's been Redeem Team vs. Dream Team debates on here before, and I thought the 2008 team was better than this team, too. Now, if 2012 had a healthy Wade, Howard, and Rose in place of Harden, Griffin, and Iggy, I'd take the 2012 team. But, as is, it's Redeem Team all the way.
And besides, the 1996 team may have been better than both '08 and '12.
[QUOTE=KG215]While some of your match-ups aren't as close or closer than you think, these two stuck out the most.
Nice even match-up between Griffin and Ewing? Really? Prime Patrick Ewing and second year Blake Griffin is a nice even match-up? Just because they have similar stats doesn't make it an even match-up. This particular hypothetical match-up is one of the easiest ones on your list to say "hands down advantage to the '92 team."
And past his prime on his way out of the league Magic makes you "no comment" when compared to prime CP3, but 35 year old, back injured so bad he can barely walk and barely play Larry Bird, is actually a "good match-up" compared to prime LeBron? On what planet?[/QUOTE]
Man I was thinking of if all were healthy, hell they saying Blake is injured now...LOL
Y'all don't seem to look at the intangibles...with the exception of Durant, Chandler, and Bron...these folks can't even find the basket 50% of the time...
Athleticism isn't going to get you anywhere...
These players were so much smarter back then, they played better team ball, and unselfish...and DEFENSE..which is a terminology that seems the have fallen by the wayside.
Settling for all those 3point shots, when you can shoot over 40%, you aren't going to even hurt the 92 dream team.
Several "horrible" shooters....Bryant, Williams, Anthony....these guys shoot a very low percentage. Add Robinson/Ewing into the mix clogging up that middle thats only going to make that number go down!
You have to make baskets...and those players that played back then, with the exception of Pippen/Drexler...they ALL shot a high percentage!
[QUOTE=Heavincent]And was still one of the best players in the league.[/QUOTE]
Even if that's true, he's still [I]clearly[/I] past his physical prime so it's odd that he would mention guys like Magic and Bird being past their athletic peaks. This version of Kobe gets absolutely harassed by a 29 year old prime Jordan.
can't discuss basketball with dudes who are born in early 90's. seriously.
40 year old MJ was top 5-6 SG in 2003 while shooting better .445% which is an unbelievable for a guy with 1 good knee.
and i laugh at how some of you try to disrespect some of dream team players.
stockton? let's not act like he was bob cousey running around short shorts with 1 hand dribbles. stockton was a nasty little dude. a perfect floor general with a brain.
magic? he has plenty of toys to work with, so he doesn't have to be all that athletic. there is no stopping his perfectly placed no look bounce pass even if magic was 40. and go watch the 1992 dream team footage. magic was in shape, and he looked great. let's not act like he was a walking zombie because he wasn't.
laettner? well he won't play much if not at all. but in his rookie season he avg 18.2/8.7/2.8/1.3 blocks. that's not bad. that was actually his best season. he peaked too early. he would hold his own against blake/love. but again, he won't be seeing any playing time.
clyde? how do we forget how great clyde was? i mean are you guys serious? some of you talk like clyde is some sort of a scrub. clyde was filthy dude. he was an mvp contender.
mullin? mullin would be dream team's version of ray ray/rip hamilton. you need a guy who can stroke the ball. he will certainly kill you if you leave him open. to me mullin is an x-factor. 12 team doesn't have designated shooter.
instead of having guys like iggy, 12 team needed a lethal shooter.
bird? yes he is old and etc. first he won't play much for sure. he would be limited to about 15-20 min at most. but when he is on the court his charisma, brain will take over. you can't teach top 2 basketball IQ of all time.
and barkley is dead wrong. kobe wouldn't make this 92 dream team. he is too old. why would you pick 34 year old a really awful diet coke version of MJ, when you already have prime MJ himself? there is no point picking kobe because he would just be a cancer, like isiah thomas.
durant is also debatable. drexler is better defender, and much better rebounder. durant hasn't entered his prime yet, and we've just witnessed that he isn't ready for the big stage yet. durant is better scorer than clyde, but 92 team already has the greatest scorer of all time. drexler brings better overall versatility.
only bron is worth a spot in 1992.