[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Moses Malone? 1 ring, 1 finals mvp, 3 mvps...Lebron has all that.[/QUOTE]
Moses Malone 17834 career rebounds
LeBron James 19045 career points
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[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Moses Malone? 1 ring, 1 finals mvp, 3 mvps...Lebron has all that.[/QUOTE]
Moses Malone 17834 career rebounds
LeBron James 19045 career points
[QUOTE=pauk]For the same reason Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain is compared to Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and such...[/QUOTE]
I've never seen anyone do what you're doing. You're doing a "side-by-side resume" comparison for LeBron, Jerry West, and Oscar Robertson, and including awards and honors that didn't exist when two of those were playing. That'd be exactly like me using FMVP as a category, putting a 6 in Jordan's column, and a 0 in Russell's, knowing the casual fan may think Russell must not have been as good as Jordan because he won 0 FMVPs to Jordan's 6.
[QUOTE=pauk]FMVP, DPOY, 3PT line, steals, blocks didnt exist back then for example, so you work with what a player had and what a player did not have... you can either go with hypothetic opinions like: "Russell would have 11 FMVPs if that award did exist back then", that would make him the GOAT wouldnt it? [B]or you can go with facts... "He had none"...[/B][/QUOTE]
Do you really not see how stupid and ignorant this makes you look? I mean are you so deeply obsessed with LeBron that you've become completely void of logic? How in the world is it fair to go with facts in that instance? How in the hell is it fair to say LeBron has 20 POTM awards to West's and Robertson's 0, say you're just stating facts, and COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that POTM wasn't an award when West and Robertson were playing?
I'll say it again....[B]if you're going to compare 2 or 3 players by doing a resume comparison, and there is an award or honor that didn't exist during the time of one or two of the players, but did for the other(s), THEN JUST DON'T USE IT![/B] It really is that simple.
[QUOTE=pauk]With your logic, Russell should be the GOAT considering he hypothetically could have got many FMVPs...
It doesnt work that way...[/QUOTE]
How? That's not what he's saying...AT ALL. He, I, nor anyone else are saying West, Robertson, or Moses Malone would have close to 20 POTM awards if it existed during their careers. All we're saying is it's not fair to use it when it didn't exist during their careers but did in LeBron's. Same with DPOY an DPOY voting. Don't use "LeBron 1x DPOY runner-up" unless you mention the award didn't exist during West's and Robertson's career.
[QUOTE=pauk]Sure, but if you do discredit what a player has accomplished then there is a reason some human might question your agenda...[/QUOTE]
He's not trying to discredit what LeBron did, neither am I. We're just trying to get you to realize how unfair and ignorant it is to build-up LeBron and argue why he's better by using awards that didn't exist during the career of the payers you're comparing him to.
[QUOTE=pauk]Pedestal #11 is where Lebrons accomplishments are at, not any higher, you could debate Jerry West, Moses Malone and Oscar Robertson using different criterias, but thats the pedestal he is at [B]based on not my opinion[/B], but the accomplishments you see right infront of your eyes i often here presented for you.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly what it is. You think LeBron is #11 all-time because of his accomplishments. Yes, those accomplishments are facts, but you thinking he's #11 all-time because of those facts is your opinion.
[QUOTE=pauk]But you? Its YOU who just discredited a greater career in order to firmly place someone else where your obsess believes he should be.[/QUOTE]
Nice. Casually throw in there that LeBron has had a greater career like it's an indisputable fact.
[QUOTE=pauk]Who said anything about POTM boosting Lebron to Top 5? What the hell...[/QUOTE]
That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying how stupid it is to use POTM to compare LeBron to Oscar and West. Maybe if I say it a few thousand more times, it'll finally register in that dense head of yours, and you'll stop doing it.
[QUOTE]Tired of people like you immediately excusing your lack of retaliation by commenting about that guy being a stan... because you cant retaliate... who can retaliate facts which proves your statement wrong afterall...
Either present me with facts to why Jerry West, Oscar Robertson should be above Lebron or stop wasting my time with that nonsense....[/QUOTE]
He's not saying you're wrong about LeBron being #11. Nowhere in that post did he say that. He did say LeBron will more than likely be top 5 by the time his career is over, but he's nowhere near that right now. That's not him saying LeBron shouldn't be #11.
Thing is, I don't even have a problem with LeBron at #11, or #12-#15. I just hate the way you're going about arguing for LeBron over the other candidates for the spot.
[QUOTE=Odinn]Moses Malone 17834 career rebounds
LeBron James 19045 career points[/QUOTE]
How about 10 40pt playoff games and 53 30pt playoff games to how many for Moses?
Listing player of the months for Lebron with a zero next to players who didnt have a chance to win one really is one of the most pathetic tactics ive ever seen used here. And defending it is proof enough that the person saying it shouldnt be taken serious.
Its the worst kind of manipulation and its so obvious that the only reasonable response to being called out on it should be "Yea...you got me".
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]How about 10 40pt playoff games and 53 30pt playoff games to how many for Moses?[/QUOTE]
How many 15+ or 20+ board playoff games for LeBron?
My point was, right now LeBron can compete with Moses' career awards but not on career totals or -longevity-. Moses Malone was a 20/10 guy for 11 straight seasons and he was only 1.1 ppg away for 12th one. LeBron just completed his 8th season.
Larry skyrocketed from 4 votes to 32 votes :roll:
Anyhow, I vote for West.
Oscar RObertson!
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]No
#5 Thread made on 8/20 8:36 PM
#6 Thread made on 8/21 12:06 PM
15 hours
That is longer than almost every thread.
I posted the wrong results, here was the most updated results on #5[/QUOTE]
So it was 3 votes away and you ended it? You had no problem making other threads longer under the excuse that it was close before, and now you end threads with a 3 vote difference. That's some crazy obvious bias.
[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]What's really strange is....for years we heard 'winning is overrated"....."winning is a team acomplishment"....__________ (fill in star who won) only wins because of a great team"
- Now that Lebron won a Title in a asterik season he is now the 11th greatest player according to ISH...he basically jumped at least 15 spots:roll:
for winning a title.
- yet the same criteria doesn't go for other superstars who won more...alot more.
:hammerhead:[/QUOTE]
Its about the context...
Oscar.
[QUOTE=pauk]I do and they were not DPOY runner ups... :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Oh, and how about this gem...he striaght up LIES and says West and Robertson weren't DPOY runner-ups. Clear as day manipulation in response to someone telling him to include DPOY runner-ups for the other players since he did it for LeBron.
Why, pauk, didn't you tell him that poster thetruth and tell him that DPOY wasn't awarded at any point in West's and Robertson's careers?
[QUOTE=KG215]Oh, and how about this gem...he striaght up LIES and says West and Robertson weren't DPOY runner-ups. Clear as day manipulation in response to someone telling him to include DPOY runner-ups for the other players since he did it for LeBron.
Why, pauk, didn't you tell him that poster thetruth and tell him that DPOY wasn't awarded at any point in West's and Robertson's careers?[/QUOTE]
What? So they were DPOY runner ups?
Ehm... they were not DPOY runner ups because:
1. DPOY didnt exist during their days
2. They were not that good defensively, especially not Oscar Robertson... so even if it would exist its extremly unlikely they would have been any DPOY runner ups...
Dont make your brain bleed...
'Bronze wouldn't even be the runner up if he played in the 1960s, with Russell and Wilt in the league.
[QUOTE=pauk]What? So they were DPOY runner ups?
Ehm... they were not DPOY runner ups because:
1. DPOY didnt exist during their days
[/QUOTE]
Don't you see the problem regarding this?
[QUOTE=pauk]
Ehm... they were not DPOY runner ups because:
1. DPOY didnt exist during their days
[/QUOTE]
STOP...stop right there. That's all you need to know. As soon as you realized or knew this, you shouldn't have included it as part of your resume comparisons. At that point absolutely nothing else matters. Not subjective things like your opinion on who the better defender was, or who the general NBA fan population thought was the better defender, nothing. All you needed to know is that the award did not exist when two of the players you're comparing LeBron to were playing.
I thought KennethGriffin was as bad as it got when it came to ruthlessly and ignorantly defending his favorite poster. I was wrong, you're just as bad, if not worse.
[B]I do not give two shits whether or not you or anyone else thought Oscar Robertson and Jerry West were good defenders.[/B]
You don't get to us the cop-out of "LeBron is the better defender of the three, though" to excuse your ignorance.
That's not the point you dumbass. How hard is that to understand? I've called you out repeatedly the last two days on this and you still can't seem to comprehend what I and everyone else is trying to tell you. Notice, out of all the times you've tried to defend your reasoning for using things like POTM and DPOY to compare LeBron to Robertson and West, NO ONE has defended you, but plenty of posters have called you out on your stupidity.
[QUOTE=pauk]Dont make your brain bleed...[/QUOTE]
I'm not making my brain bleed, you are.
And none of that excuses why you manipulated that poster who asked you why didn't include when West and Robertson were DPOY runner-up. Instead of telling them they didn't because the award didn't exist, you just told him they never finished runner-up in DPOY voting. You shouldn't be trying to manipulate someone into thinking LeBron is the better defender that way. He and any other poster should be presented with ALL the facts, and then be left to make that decision for themselves.
[B]LeBron James [/B] is my vote and I can't believe people said Charles Barkley
KG215... With your logic, we should remove Michael Jordans 6 FMVPs when compared to Bill Russell because the FMVP didnt exist during Bill Russells time... awesome...
There is no point in going into hypothetics, its extremly subjective that way. Because hypothetically for example Bill Russell had at least 8 FMVPs or more considering he was the best player in his team at least 8 of those Finals... then you think about DPOY, hypothetically he won at least 8 DPOYs aswell considering its known he was the best defensive player in his era... 11 rings, 5 MVPs, 8 FMVPs, 8 DPOYs.... that would have made him the GOAT... with a ridicilously huge gap...
Do you want to play it that way?
But in Lebrons case against West and Oscar, they hypothetically would have NOT won any DPOY (or been runner ups)... especially not Oscar Robertson... they were not that good defensively... MVP did exist back then and Oscar had 1 and West had 0... FMVP did also exist during Wests Finals runs, he actually got his only FMVP when he didnt get a championship, when he did get a championship he was a sidekick next to a 35-15-4 (if i remember correctly) averaging Kareem... so no matter how you twist and turn it, Lebron was better, he accomplished more...
I know its extremly hard to digest that, especially as a Lebron hater... but you need to deal with it...
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]'Bronze wouldn't even be the runner up if he played in the 1960s, with Russell and Wilt in the league.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. If he's going to use the hypothetical excuse of "neither of them would've finished DPOY runner-up in their career anyway" then we get to do the same thing by pointing out LeBron wouldn't have either if the was playing in their era.
If the award existed during the 60's, the meat of West's and Robertson's careers, it would've been a battle between Russell and Chamberlain every single season for DPOY. They would've ran away with the voting and, at best, LeBron would've finished a VERY distant third in the voting.
[QUOTE=pauk]KG215... With your logic, we should remove Michael Jordans 6 FMVPs when compared to Bill Russell because the FMVP didnt exist during Bill Russells time... awesome...[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
This really shows how stupid and ignorant you are. I, nor anyone else is using FMVP when doing a side-by-side resume comparison between Jordan and Russell. I've NEVER seen anyone do that when arguing why one should be ranked over the other; and if I saw someone doing so I'd call them out on it.
You, on the other hand, are BLATANTLY doing just that with DPOY and POTM to argue why LeBron should be ranked higher than Robertson, West, and Moses.
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow][B]Lebron James[/B]
1x Champion
1x Finals MVP
3x MVP
8x All-Star
8x All-NBA Selections
4x All-Defensive Selections
1x Scoring Champion
Jerry West? Lebron accomplished just as much in a tougher era. The league doesn't compare to what it is now.
Moses Malone? 1 ring, 1 finals mvp, 3 mvps...Lebron has all that.
Oscar? 1 ring as an old man behind Kareem, 0 finals mvps. Lebron's 27-7-7 career average in this era is better than Oscar's triple doubles in the 60s era which had an all-time high pace. He wouldn't that that in this era that's for sure.
Isiah? Don't know why he got 2 votes. Isn't even in the conversation, Lebron is just better.
David Robinson? Got 1 vote, but he never led a team to a title like Lebron has.
Barkely? Lebron has accomplished much more in his career[/QUOTE]
:applause: I vote [B]LeBron James [/B] and what are the current results anyway dude? Should start counting before this thread gets even longer
It would be hypocritical to vote Oscar Robertson over Jerry West if you voted Magic Johnson over Larry Bird.
Oscar Robertson was better in his peak, but Jerry West has him beat in longevity and he had far more team success.
Jerry West is my vote.
I'm sure I'm off +/- 2-3 for each. Some of the votes I counted for a player weren't 100% clear and I may have counted a couple or so by posters without 100 posts, but here's what I've got so far...
LeBron - 35
West - 13
Robertson - 14
Malone - 9
[QUOTE=KG215]I'm sure I'm off +/- 2-3 for each. Some of the votes I counted for a player weren't 100% clear and I may have counted a couple or so by posters without 100 posts, but here's what I've got so far...
LeBron - 35
West - 13
Robertson - 14
Malone - 9[/QUOTE]
Our greek god :bowdown: but how long did it take you to tally up those votes :coleman: :applause:
[QUOTE=KG215]:oldlol:
This really shows how stupid and ignorant you are. I, nor anyone else is using FMVP when doing a side-by-side resume comparison between Jordan and Russell. I've NEVER seen anyone do that when arguing why one should be ranked over the other; and if I saw someone doing so I'd call them out on it.
You, on the other hand, are BLATANTLY doing just that with DPOY and POTM to argue why LeBron should be ranked higher than Robertson, West, and Moses.[/QUOTE]
Jesus ****ing Christ man.... forget about POTM/DPOY ok? Will that make you feel better? And I didnt use POTM/DPOY to catapult Lebron over anybody... I merelly presented all the NBA accomplishments on a sheet... POTM/DPOY just so happen to be there, oh mi oh my, what a blasphemy...
Forget about POTM/DPOY... fooooorrgeeet it... alright?
Now, how about you go back and concentrate on everything else, i am very interested to see how you want to excuse your way out of these accomplishments for example, im sure they did exist during Wests/Oscars time:
.....................Lebron........West........Oscar.......
MVP..................3...............0..............1..........
FMVP.................1...............1..............0.........
CHAMP..............1...............1..............1..........
Championship context:
Lebron - Won the championship as the man, leader, best player in his team, had one of the 10 best playoff runs by a FMVP in NBA playoff history... he literally carried that team to a championship... that year he also won the MVP, had the most 1st all-NBA votes and had the most 1st all-defensive team votes, led the league in PER (aka. had the best stats), won a gold medal... and so on...
Oscar - Won the championship as a sidekick
West - Won the championship as a sidekick (the FMVP he got actually 3-4 years earlier if i remember correctly, despite not winning a championship)
Good luck....
[QUOTE=BrickingStar]Our greek god :bowdown: but how long did it take you to tally up those votes :coleman: :applause:[/QUOTE]
I started doing it after like page 7 or 8. After a new page was started, I just added the votes from the previous page. So, like 5 minutes to count the votes from the first 7-8 pages, and like 30 second for every other page after.
I vote Lebron.
This last has turned out pretty well, guys. Good job. You know how it is with things like these, ... well I at least am never happy with them.
Jerry west
I will be interested to see who wins between Jerry West and Oscar Robinson. I would also like to see old-timers argue about them. I've watched some footage of both. They're both great. Based on what I've watched I'd choose West.
OP hurry and start 12 before someone insults Wilt and jlauber makes this a 20+ pg thread
[QUOTE=pauk]Jesus ****ing Christ man.... forget about POTM/DPOY ok? Will that make you feel better? And I didnt use POTM/DPOY to catapult Lebron over anybody... I merelly presented all the NBA accomplishments on a sheet... POTM/DPOY just so happen to be there, oh mi oh my, what a blasphemy...
Forget about POTM/DPOY... fooooorrgeeet it... alright?
Now, how about you go back and concentrate on everything else, i am very interested to see how you want to excuse your way out of these accomplishments for example, im sure they did exist during Wests/Oscars time:
.....................Lebron........West........Oscar.......
MVP..................3...............0..............1..........
FMVP.................1...............1..............0.........
CHAMP..............1...............1..............1..........
Good luck....[/QUOTE]
:applause:
FINALLY. This whole time (as I've pointed out several times) I didn't have a problem with you making a case for LeBron at #11 or voting for him at #11.
And whether you were using POTM of DPOY to catapult LeBron over the others isn't the point. When you do something like add to LeBron's resume "1 DPOY runner-up", and then tell a poster who asked why you didn't do the same for the other two that they never finished runner-up in DPOY voting, it shows your agenda, and shows that you're manipulatively trying to make LeBron look better.
He doesn't need your help. At 27 he's already got a resume good enough to have him in top 11-15 consideration.
[QUOTE=pauk]Its about the[B][SIZE="7"] context[/SIZE][/B]...[/QUOTE]
Leaving a 63 win team with the best record in the NBA to join 2 other top 5 - 10 players....making the HEAT the most stacked team ( maybe) of alltime
- then putting up the biggest choke job in the History of the NBA Finals ( for a superstar)
- winning during a asterisk season....
context???
come on now Pau - Pau!
[QUOTE=KG215]:applause:
FINALLY. This whole time (as I've pointed out several times) I didn't have a problem with you making a case for LeBron at #11 or voting for him at #11.
[/quote]
Fair enough...
[quote]
When you do something like add to LeBron's resume "1 DPOY runner-up", and then tell a poster who asked why you didn't do the same for the other two that they never finished runner-up in DPOY voting, it shows your agenda, and shows that you're manipulatively trying to make LeBron look better.[/quote]
Why? I thought i explained that thousand times... because Lebron was a runner up (and ended up top 5 actually 3 years in a row) and because hypothetically Oscar/West would have not been runner ups or won the DPOY even if it did exist during their time, especially not Oscar...
Has nothing to do with agenda, i just showed you what a player has and what a player doesnt have... but ok, forget about DPOY and POTM (which is not significant compared MVP, FMVP, Championship anyways)
[quote]
He doesn't need your help. At 27 he's already got a resume good enough to have him in top 11-15 consideration.[/QUOTE]
I am perfectly aware of that, but others here apparently need my help.... if everybody were fully aware of Lebrons, Wests, Oscars, Moses accomplishments and compared it all to eachother then i wouldnt have to give that "help"....
PS: ALPHAWOLF24.... that trolling didnt bait me this time...
Lebron is a better player than Kobe, should be Lebron 10 Kobe 11.
[IMG]http://files.sharenator.com/i_aint_even_mad_RE_You_mad_Bro-s630x493-193975.jpg[/IMG]
[quote]- winning during a asterisk season....[/quote]
Come on now. This season may have had fewer games but it was a *compressed season*. And how many fewer games were there? 16? I think it's actually more of an honor to have won during a compressed season with a million distractions.
gosh, speaking of distractions, Kews1... is that anyone famous that I need to spend the next 4 hours googling?
[QUOTE=Clifton]gosh, speaking of distractions, Kews1... is that anyone famous that I need to spend the next 4 hours googling?[/QUOTE]
just your regular run of the mill meme girl :oldlol:
I see.
Well, she's very attractive.
What were we talking about?
[QUOTE=pauk]Fair enough...
Why? I thought i explained that thousand times... because Lebron was a runner up (and ended up top 5 actually 3 years in a row) and because hypothetically Oscar/West would have not been runner ups or won the DPOY even if it did exist during their time, especially not Oscar...
Has nothing to do with agenda, i just showed you what a player has and what a player doesnt have... but ok, forget about DPOY and POTM (which is not significant compared MVP, FMVP, Championship anyways)
I am perfectly aware of that, but others here apparently need my help.... if everybody were fully aware of Lebrons, Wests, Oscars, Moses accomplishments and compared it all to eachother then i wouldnt have to give that "help"....
PS: ALPHAWOLF24.... that trolling didnt bait me this time...[/QUOTE]
I'm just curious how the most dominant player of alltime (Wilt) get's put behind players like MJ , Kareem etc....for bieng labeled a "choker"...."didn't win as much as MJ" blah...blah...blah...
but Lebron James quits on a 63 win team (back 2 back 63 win team) and puts up the biggest choke job in NBA History.....and he moves up at minimum 15 spots????....
[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]I'm just curious how the most dominant player of alltime (Wilt) get's put behind players like MJ , Kareem etc....for bieng labeled a "choker"...."didn't win as much as MJ" blah...blah...blah...
but Lebron James quits on a 63 win team (back 2 back 63 win team) and puts up the biggest choke job in NBA History.....and he moves up at minimum 15 spots????....[/QUOTE]
How did kobe move up on the AT lists after '09?
His '05-'07 seasons weren't that mucb of an success either, how could he jump into the top 10?
[QUOTE=Overdrive]How did kobe move up on the AT lists after '09?
His '05-'07 seasons weren't that mucb of an success either, how could he jump into the top 10?[/QUOTE]
- before 09' he was already a [B]3X NBA Champion [/B]and top 10 scorer in NBA History (pretty sure) 12X allstar and 8 - 9 X all NBA / all NBA Defensive player..(somewhere around there)...(not even mentioning all the iconic moments in fans memories...81...9 str8 40 point games , buzzer beaters etc.)
I think in 08' he was around 11 - 13th alltime...
- since then he won 2 more Titles.....and moved up into the top 5 - 7th place.....
- Lebron wins 1 after a horrific 2011' finals and moves up 15 - 20 spots???