10 seconds left, tied up, ball in Jordans hands. Who do you chose to defend him?

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]I see.

Well yes, MJ was 4 for 4 against Artest in this video (or actually 4 for 5).

But as said, this video showed all of MJ's successful plays. We do not see:

1. MJ making a few dribble move attempts at getting by Artest where Artest stood his ground leading to an MJ pass

2. Artest forcing MJ into a miss (and as said, extrapolating, the most educated guess would say that this happened 6 times)


I can't really take anything at all from that video for said reasons. And nobody can, unless they think that Artest guarded MJ on 5 total possessions in the whole game (the ones the video showed), which is very very unlikely.[/QUOTE]

But again, isn't a video showing their encounters worth more than speculation?

The video shows Jordan scoring on Artest 4 times, not Artest stopping him 6 times. Your comment would suggest that Jordan and Artest matched up for at least 10 of Jordan's shot attempts. Since we don't have evidence as per that video to show this, it's speculation on your part that Artest 'stopped' Jordan 6 times, not extrapolation. Anyways, this is an issue of a semantic play on words and not terribly important.

The video showed Jordan scoring against other defenders as well, so Artest was not matched up against him the entire game. But really, for the purposes of this discussion, he doesn't have to be. The question isn't: what single defender would you have guard Jordan for a game? It's what single defender would you have guard him in a late game possession? In that 10 second instance, anything can happen, right? It's speculation either way with a variable number of outcomes. Maybe Jordan scores off the dribble, or posts him, or he gets fouled, or he shoots over the top. Maybe Artest strips him, blocks his shot, or forces him to pass. Do we really know? Of course not.

[QUOTE=L.A. Jazz]Rodman
Pippen
Cooper

i think length on great wheels is crucial to challenge super star shotmakers at the last shot.[/QUOTE]
agree with this

[QUOTE=juju151111]Shawn Marion is a good one on one defender. Bruce Bowen said it too. Ron arrest still said it don't be mad[/QUOTE]

Shawn Marion has never been a lock down defender. lets not change reality. Who has he really done a good job on? he was too slow laterally to guard the elite two guards in his prime, too small to guard the pfs he matched up with and never really bothered Pierce or Bron or Melo. He has never even been used as a shut down defender.

[QUOTE=Harison]Few possessions doesnt say much (if anything) how well certain player would defend someone in general, or with 10 secs remaining.

The real question is, who have the [B]best [/B]chance to [B]limit [/B]Jordan's chances to score? No one can shut down elite scorer like MJ completely, and just posting few plays where MJ outplayed the defender, is neither the evidence for the point above, nor its wise in the first place.

[B]Lets use your logic [/B](and I can post the evidence of those certain plays):

Jordan missed some game winning shots, therefore he shouldnt be entrusted with the ball in the clutch. Few plays is all that matter, not the overall body of work, right? :rolleyes:

Iverson broke Jordan's ankles on the dribble once. According to you, it would be the evidence Jordan wouldnt be able to defend AI.

I hope you understand now, that the "evidence" you posted doesnt mean any of that, its just cherry picking of statistically meaningless data.[/QUOTE]

Actually, that's not my logic at all. I merely posted a video showing their matchup. You can infer as little, or as much, as you like from it. This entire thread is speculation and we can really go around in circles about it, can't we?

For the record I understand your point completely, but I'm not sure if you understand mine. Limited sample size of video evidence isn't conclusive enough to say whether Artest could guard him or not overall. Yes, got that, not hard to figure out. But video evidence still, in what is a hypothetical discussion, trumps speculation. Especially over a situation( 10 seconds late game) that can have any number of outcomes. Really, we may as well not even discuss it, right? I mean who knows what's going to happen in a single possession, and how much time do you want to invest debating about it?

If you're going to dismiss the video, then you may as well dismiss the discussion period, because it's a totally hypothetical debate. Otherwise, take the video for what it is, a example of Jordan matching up with Artest. It wasn't intended to be definitive proof of anything but to show that if old Jordan can hold his own against Artest( as shown in limited sample size), you can figure that prime Jordan would do pretty good. Or, take nothing from it and speculate till the cows come home.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]But again, isn't a video showing their encounters worth more than speculation?

The video shows Jordan scoring on Artest 4 times, not Artest stopping him 6 times. Your comment would suggest that Jordan and Artest matched up for at least 10 of Jordan's shot attempts. Since we don't have evidence as per that video to show this, it's speculation on your part that Artest 'stopped' Jordan 6 times, not extrapolation. Anyways, this is an issue of a semantic play on words and not terribly important.

The video showed Jordan scoring against other defenders as well, so Artest was not matched up against him the entire game. But really, for the purposes of this discussion, he doesn't have to be. The question isn't: what single defender would you have guard Jordan for a game? It's what single defender would you have guard him in a late game possession? In that 10 second instance, anything can happen, right? It's speculation either way with a variable number of outcomes. Maybe Jordan scores off the dribble, or posts him, or he gets fouled, or he shoots over the top. Maybe Artest strips him, blocks his shot, or forces him to pass. Do we really know? Of course not.[/QUOTE]

You seem smart enough and like you know what a good argument consists of.

1. I'm saying we don't have enough evidence here for a good argument in MJ's case or Artest's case.

We have a video that was edited to take away any evidence Artest's side of the argument would have.


2. And yes, it's a single possession at the end of the game.

The best defender of MJ over an infinite number of possessions will have the best chance to guard him on that one possession.

If player x has an MJ stoppage rate of 40% over infinite possessions and player y's is 39%, player x wins.

Unless you are trying to say that for some reason that one possession will be different than the others. Like you are saying that Artest for some reason will be worse on an end of game possession than a regular possession throughout the game.


3. I gotta go. LOL.

I look forward to seeing a response to this when I'm back if you want to leave one.

Pippen, not just cause he is one of the greatest defenders of all time but he knows Jordan best.

[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]Shawn Marion has never been a lock down defender. lets not change reality. Who has he really done a good job on? he was too slow laterally to guard the elite two guards in his prime, too small to guard the pfs he matched up with and never really bothered Pierce or Bron or Melo. He has never even been used as a shut down defender.[/QUOTE]
Ask LJ about Shawn Marion and in his prime Shawn Marion was a great defender. Mavs ushally put him on the best player [url]http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/mac-engel/2012/03/shawn-marion-for-nba-defensive-player-of-the-year-is-a-long-shot.html[/url]

He couldn't guard him. Bruce Bowen said Mj was his toughest cover and Ron said it too. You have vids on YouTube with Mj blowing pass Artest,Jason Kidd, KG,Kobe, Marion, Tmac(Prime),PP,Ray Allen,Grant hill(Mj was 35 facing ray) etc... at 38 years old coming off sergery on knees. Lol at anyone of this guy stopping MJ in his prime

You'd think Jordan shot 100% in his prime based on some of the responses in this thread.

[quote]10 seconds left, tied up, ball in Jordans hands. Who do you chose to defend him?[/quote]

I get Tayshaun long arms Prince and prime Joe Dumars... I throw a hard double team at Mj to make him give up the ball and hope whoever he passes it to misses

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]You seem smart enough and like you know what a good argument consists of.

1. I'm saying we don't have enough evidence here for a good argument in MJ's case or Artest's case.

We have a video that was edited to take away any evidence Artest's side of the argument would have.


2. And yes, it's a single possession at the end of the game.

The best defender of MJ over an infinite number of possessions will have the best chance to guard him on that one possession.

If player x has an MJ stoppage rate of 40% over infinite possessions and player y's is 39%, player x wins.

Unless you are trying to say that for some reason that one possession will be different than the others. Like you are saying that Artest for some reason will be worse on an end of game possession than a regular possession throughout the game.


3. I gotta go. LOL.

I look forward to seeing a response to this when I'm back if you want to leave one.[/QUOTE]

1. No, we don't have enough evidence either way. I agree with you there, the video( like any highlight video of this nature) is simply snapshots of moments in time between player X and player y. Yes, the author of this video could be biased in favor of Jordan and therefore edit the video to make it look like Jordan is 'killing' Artest, while leaving out any evidence of Artest 'stopping' Jordan. Believe me, I understand the point you're making there.

2. Without knowing the best 'stoppage' rate for any of Jordan's defenders, I really can't say.

In terms of that single possession, particularly late game there's also the point that Jordan famously raised his level of play( though we can probably say Artest would raise his defensive pressure/ability as well) but that's not tangible, moreso its that intangible factor that isn't really measurable.

The reality is if we were to extrapolate( there's that word again lol) Artest defending Jordan for an entire game, or series, it's reasonable to speculate :D that Jordan would have occasions of scoring on Artest, Artest would have occasions where he managed to stay in front of Jordan and successfully defend him into either missing or passing it off. But in that single possession, really it's anyone's guess but I would tend to lean with Jordan for the simple reason that a historically great offensive player like Jordan has too many weapons, too many ways to manufacture something out of nothing, too many ways to improvise, to think that one defender could literally take away all of Jordan's offensive weapons and options in that 10 second frame.

That's what makes guys like Jordan and Kobe such dynamic offensive talents, is their ability to create, improvise and keep the defense off-balance and guessing. But seriously, if you played out that 10 second scenario ten times over, it's going to result in 10 totally different outcomes; it will either result in a score or a miss( or a foul or a pass), but the dynamics between the two players will differ each time the situation plays itself out( not only that but the dynamics of how their respective teammates react is subject to the same variation, and that needs to be considered as well).

3. It's all good, if you have further comment I look forward to reading it.

Byron Russell

[QUOTE=raid09]You'd think Jordan shot 100% in his prime based on some of the responses in this thread.[/QUOTE]


QFT

Intentionally foul.

Go on offense, draw up a play to get Steve Novak a three point look.

I win.

bruce bowen will kung fu kick his ass

Pippen, Rodman, Kobe, Lebron, Dumars, Patterson, Artest, Bowen

There's no stopping an elite offensive player at his best, but at least these guys can make it hard for MJ.

Kobe.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]Pippen or Artest.[/QUOTE]

This^