Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol let it go. I was wrong. Its not the first time, it won't be the last. The fact still remains Pippen shut down Magic. He was clearly flustered. To the point that Divac and Perkins found themselve bringing the ball up the court.[/QUOTE]

It's all good 97. And it's nothing personal either. I've been called out on crap I was wrong on too. [IMG]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif[/IMG]

But dude, even [I]you[/I] have to admit that you've been slipping lately, especially on the fact-checking, which should be easy for you, being a Bulls Fan and all.

[QUOTE=andgar923]The biggest myth in NBA history is that Pip is the GOAT defender…. he is not.[/QUOTE]

No, he isn't.

But then again, I've never seen anyone on a basketball message board claim that Pippen was the greatest defensive player of all time (I'll leave open the possibility that I've simply missed it). People have said (and say) he's the greatest [I]perimeter[/I] defender of all time, but saying someone is the GOAT perimeter defender and saying they're the GOAT defender are two different things.

And it's impossible for the former to also be the latter, as a perimeter defender can[B]not[/B] affect a game defensively as a big man can due to inherent positional limitations.

Scottie Pippen > John Havlicek

Scottie Pippen is the greatest defender Ive seen play the game. Hondo is not.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]No, he isn't.

But then again, I've never seen anyone on a basketball message board claim that Pippen was the greatest defensive player of all time (I'll leave open the possibility that I've simply missed it). People have said (and say) he's the greatest [I]perimeter[/I] defender of all time, but saying someone is the GOAT perimeter defender and saying they're the GOAT defender are two different things.

And it's impossible for the former to also be the latter, as a perimeter defender can[B]not[/B] affect a game defensively as a big man can due to inherent positional limitations.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, you are correct.

Most people do say he's the GOAT perimeter defender. There is some that have claimed that he's the GOAT defender unless they meant the GOAT 'perimeter' defender.

But my main point still stands.

He's not the defensive stopper many make him out to be. He's great, but not the best. Too weak inside and he's been beat on the perimeter players often while he was ON them. Not on switches, not on broken plays, but mano y mano. Everybody gets beat, but with a player of his reputation you wouldn't expect him to get beat as much as he has.

[QUOTE=Nevaeh]It's all good 97. And it's nothing personal either. I've been called out on crap I was wrong on too. [IMG]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif[/IMG]

But dude, even [I]you[/I] have to admit that you've been slipping lately, especially on the fact-checking, which should be easy for you, being a Bulls Fan and all.[/QUOTE]
Lol when have I slipped? Not saying its not true. But I'm curious

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Nobodies rewriting history. Pippen guarded Magic in game two save for the first seven minutes of the game. And did an amazing Job.[/QUOTE]

I never said Pippen didn't do a great job, but you acting like his defense was the turning point in the series, when I rather think his defense was not as great as you are making it seem. I rather believe the team shooting % which was ridiculous, Paxson and Jordan catching fire, leading to a comfortable lead and the Lakers missing a ton of easy shots had more to do with it.

I cant start a thread for some reason so I have to post this here. Ill try not to get off topic. But here are my personal top 5 defensive specialists. The first five that come to mind when I think defense:

Guards: Gary Payton, Michael Cooper
Forwards: Pippen(greatest defender to play the game), Dennis Rodman
Center: Hakeem The Dream

Those are the guys that come to mind when I think defense. Am I missing anyone? Pretty sure thats a solid starting 5 if you wanna be serious about making a team work for baskets.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]No, he isn't.

But then again, I've never seen anyone on a basketball message board claim that Pippen was the greatest defensive player of all time (I'll leave open the possibility that I've simply missed it). People have said (and say) he's the greatest [I]perimeter[/I] defender of all time, but saying someone is the GOAT perimeter defender and saying they're the GOAT defender are two different things.

And it's impossible for the former to also be the latter, as a perimeter defender can[B]not[/B] affect a game defensively as a big man can due to inherent positional limitations.[/QUOTE]

A bit off topic, but I've learned a great deal tracking down and reading your posts over the past few weeks.:cheers:

How do you store your data?

[QUOTE=andgar923]To be fair, you are correct.

Most people do say he's the GOAT perimeter defender. There is some that have claimed that he's the GOAT defender unless they meant the GOAT 'perimeter' defender.

But my main point still stands.

He's not the defensive stopper many make him out to be. He's great, but not the best. Too weak inside and he's been beat on the perimeter players often while he was ON them. Not on switches, not on broken plays, but mano y mano. Everybody gets beat, but with a player of his reputation you wouldn't expect him to get beat as much as he has.[/QUOTE]

what nonsense, all great nba defenders have been beaten a lot in their careers

Pretty much the same type of player, the only difference is Havlicek was arguably the best player on a championship team as he won finals mvp.

[QUOTE=Duncan21formvp]Pretty much the same type of player, the only difference is Havlicek was arguably the best player on a championship team as he won finals mvp.[/QUOTE]

Not quite the same player. Both were great defenders and had great all around game, but Havlicek was better offensively and much better clutch.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]Not quite the same player. Both were great defenders and had great all around game, but Havlicek was better offensively and much better clutch.[/QUOTE]
He was not better offensively. Theire ppg are about the same and that's with Hondo playing in that inflated statistical era and playing more minutes per night.


And what makes Hondo more clutch?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]He was not better offensively. Theire ppg are about the same and that's with Hondo playing in that inflated statistical era and playing more minutes per night.


And what makes Hondo more clutch?[/QUOTE]

Well, their regular season averages are 21/22 and 16/17.5 respectively so its not thesame. During the 68, 69 and 74 championship seasons Havlicek averaged 26-27.4 points in the playoffs.

And dude, about the clutch plays, we already went over this and you've been disproven by myself and a bunch of other posters. Havlicek is known as one of the all-time clutch players. Pippen isn't. Just get over it.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]He was not better offensively. Theire ppg are about the same and that's with Hondo playing in that inflated statistical era and playing more minutes per night.


[b]And what makes Hondo more clutch?[/b][/QUOTE]
"Havlicek stole the ball!"
Playing great in '68 and '69
Leading a team to a championship in '74 and you could argue for '76
etc

[QUOTE=kizut1659]Well, their regular season averages are 21/22 and 16/17.5 respectively so its not thesame. During the 68, 69 and 74 championship seasons Havlicek averaged 26-27.4 points in the playoffs.

And dude, about the clutch plays, we already went over this and you've been disproven by myself and a bunch of other posters. Havlicek is known as one of the all-time clutch players. Pippen isn't. Just get over it.[/QUOTE]
Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

And this play was more clutch

[url]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRFKhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg[/url]

[QUOTE=97 bulls][B]He was not better offensively.[/B] Theire ppg are about the same and that's with Hondo playing in that inflated statistical era and playing more minutes per night.


And what makes Hondo more clutch?[/QUOTE]

You've got to be a biased clown to actually believe the bolded.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

And this play was more clutch

[url]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRFKhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg[/url][/QUOTE]

LOL you are hilarious. Pippen was not the only one blocking AND this play is very controversial due to the fact that Smith was fouled AND it was game 5 and not game 7. Why do you think Havlicek's stealing the ball is one of the most iconic plays of all time - bias against Pippen, lol? And your other examples of Pippen's clutch plays - the Portland game 6 comeback, defense on Worthy - have already been disproven. Can't you judge admit you are wrong and give up?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

[b]And this play was more clutch[/b]

[url]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRFKhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg[/url][/QUOTE]
:kobe:. Last time I checked, clutch game 7 play is much more important than a clutch game 6 play

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

And this play was more clutch

[url]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRFKhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg[/url][/QUOTE]

This post perfectly demonstrates your bias.

[QUOTE=Freedom Kid7]:kobe:. Last time I checked, clutch game 7 play is much more important than a clutch game 6 play[/QUOTE]

It was actually game 5 no?

[QUOTE=kizut1659]It was actually game 5 no?[/QUOTE]
Actually it was. Just proves my point further though.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]LOL you are hilarious. Pippen was not the only one blocking AND this play is very controversial due to the fact that Smith was fouled AND it was game 5 and not game 7. Why do you think Havlicek's stealing the ball is one of the most iconic plays of all time - bias against Pippen, lol? And your other examples of Pippen's clutch plays - the Portland game 6 comeback, defense on Worthy - have already been disproven. Can't you judge admit you are wrong and give up?[/QUOTE]
Lol those games weren't proven wrong by anyone. We were arguing over who Jordan defended. Not Pippen.

[QUOTE=Freedom Kid7]:kobe:. Last time I checked, clutch game 7 play is much more important than a clutch game 6 play[/QUOTE]
Both plays were clutch. But Pippens two blocks were more difficult.

[QUOTE=oolalaa]You've got to be a biased clown to actually believe the bolded.[/QUOTE]
What made Hondo a better scorer? If your gonna allude to his PPG, (in 46 minutes) then I'm gonna bring up his atrocious FG%. And don't forget the pace the game was played as well.

But I'm the biased one

[QUOTE=Duncan21formvp]Pretty much the same type of player, the only difference is Havlicek was arguably the best player on a championship team as he won finals mvp.[/QUOTE]
Winning a finals MVP doesn't make you the best player on the team. Tg

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol those games weren't proven wrong by anyone. We were arguing over who Jordan defended. Not Pippen.[/QUOTE]

Yes they were. Other posters proved that 1) Pippen's defense in 1991 finals did not change the course of the series; and 2) Pippen played well but was not THE reason Portland lost game 6 in 1992. None of the plays Pippen made in that series or for that matter any other series (except his dunk against 8-seed Washington in 97) compare to Havlicek's game winning or tying shots in playoffs. Just because you refuse to accept the proof doesn't make it untrue.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Winning a finals MVP doesn't make you the best player on the team. Tg[/QUOTE]

Who was the best player in the 74 series then?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol. I alluded to multiple clutch games Pippen had. Pippen stealing that ball to seal the championship in 97 is no less than when Hondo stole the ball.

And this play was more clutch

[url]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbRFKhpMKX0E&ei=015eUMGNJZOE9gT-yYGIBA&usg=AFQjCNELlJ_iptpAzxaTUZ-Ud63f71KTWg[/url][/QUOTE]

The reason why your post is stupid is because it makes no sense. If Havlicek doesn't steal the ball it's very possible that the Celtics go on to lose that series since that was a Game 7 at that. What series saving win that would have led to the Bulls getting eliminated has Pippen ever had? When has Pippen ever had a series as good as Havlicek's 1968 or 1969 Finals series? And do you even know of 10 let alone 5 playoff games Havlickek ever had?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]What made Hondo a better scorer? If your gonna allude to his PPG, (in 46 minutes) then I'm gonna bring up his atrocious FG%. And don't forget the pace the game was played as well.

But I'm the biased one[/QUOTE]

Regular season 44 vs. 47% and both shot around 44% in playoffs (Pippen's is marginally higher). Havlicek shot around 10% better in free throws. AND Pippen certainly benefited from the defense being focused on Jordan. Before you bring up Pippen's 94 season (his absolute absolute prime) - check out his 43% percentage in the 94 playoffs. In 1999 playoffs - the last time he tried to carry a heave scoring burden - he shot 33%. But yes, Havlicek was not a great shooter either - which is why he doesn't make top 10 GOAT which otherwise someone with his resume could.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Both plays were clutch. But Pippens two blocks were more difficult.[/QUOTE]

Lol thats why one of the plays is an iconic moment in NBA history and always makes top 10 lists of all-time clutch plays and the other play is better known for the controversy of whether Smith was fouled. I guess everyone except you is blind.

[QUOTE=nycelt84]The reason why your post is stupid is because it makes no sense. If Havlicek doesn't steal the ball it's very possible that the Celtics go on to lose that series since that was a Game 7 at that. What series saving win that would have led to the Bulls getting eliminated has Pippen ever had? When has Pippen ever had a series as good as Havlicek's 1968 or 1969 Finals series? And do you even know of 10 let alone 5 playoff games Havlickek ever had?[/QUOTE]

Its not just possible but probable since Philly just came back from like a 7 point deficit with 3 straight baskets an Russel just turned over the ball.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Winning a finals MVP doesn't make you the best player on the team. Tg[/QUOTE]

Are you familiar with the 74 post-season?

Yea, might wanna get up on that.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Both plays were clutch. But Pippens two blocks were more difficult.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. There were a hell of a lot of defenders blocking that guy, so even if Pip's block missed, someone else would have blocked him.

Hondo was the only man he had to do an incredible reach out to get that ball.

[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]Are you familiar with the 74 post-season?

Yea, might wanna get up on that.[/QUOTE]
There s a difference between being the best player on a teaam and playing the best in a series.

Was tony parker a better player than tim duncan because he won a finals mvp in 07?

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Calabis is right. Worthy was pretty good against Pippen despite the ankle. He was good against Jordan, too, but Jordan didn't guard him as much. I just saw the first 2 and a half games the last couple of days. Even before this topic veered toward this way, I was thinking about how good Worthy was in the 91 Finals and how much I forgot about it. At least for the first 2 and a half games... I plan on watching the rest of Game 3 tonight after everyone goes to bed.[/QUOTE]


Watched Game 3...and into Game 4...

Off topic but just wanted to say this. That doubling, trapping defense the Bulls put on the Lakers was a g**damn thing of beauty. It looked like the Bulls had 8 players out on the court. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were ridiculous. They all would double somebody on one side of the court and then race back to their man to contest whenever the ball swung around. On any one possession, all three would double and race back to their own man at some point. It looked like a dance. And they did it ALL GAME LONG. Levingston deserves a mention here too cause he moved his feet when he got off the bench. They just wore the Lakers down.

I laugh at those that don't think the Bulls played historical level defense in the first 3-peat. They wore Magic down and forced other players out of their comfort zone to pick up the slack. Perkins is used to posting up and shooting. The Bulls made him have to think like a point forward cause traps were coming at him so hard. Byron Scott is used to spotting up but he had to come out and handle the ball when Magic was forced to give it up. The Bulls energy wore them down physically (look at the rebounding disparity) but that trapping defense wore the Lakers down mentally.

Look at this defense... [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_O5Fr62OUw#t=2m09s[/url]

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Watched Game 3...and into Game 4...

Off topic but just wanted to say this. That doubling, trapping defense the Bulls put on the Lakers was a g**damn thing of beauty. It looked like the Bulls had 8 players out on the court. Pippen, Jordan and Grant were ridiculous. They all would double somebody on one side of the court and then race back to their man to contest whenever the ball swung around. On any one possession, all three would double and race back to their own man at some point. It looked like a dance. And they did it ALL GAME LONG. Levingston deserves a mention here too cause he moved his feet when he got off the bench. They just wore the Lakers down.

I laugh at those that don't think the Bulls played historical level defense in the first 3-peat. They wore Magic down and forced other players out of their comfort zone to pick up the slack. Perkins is used to posting up and shooting. The Bulls made him have to think like a point forward cause traps were coming at him so hard. Byron Scott is used to spotting up but he had to come out and handle the ball when Magic was forced to give it up. The Bulls energy wore them down physically (look at the rebounding disparity) but that trapping defense wore the Lakers down mentally.[/QUOTE]
Yep. Countless times, the Lakers bigs found themselves taking the ball up the court and attempting to initiate a semblance of an offense. Even worse with less than ten seconds on the shot clock. And once Magic gave the ball up (especially in game two) he rarely got it back.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Yep. Countless times, the Lakers bigs found themselves taking the ball up the court and attempting to initiate a semblance of an offense. Even worse with less than ten seconds on the shot clock. And once Magic gave the ball up (especially in game two) he rarely got it back.[/QUOTE]

The beauty of having guys like Jordan, Pippen and Grant was that they were interchangeable. Young, long, quick, athletic, can defend multiple positions, equally good defensively in full court and half court...and you can change their defensive assignments based on the needs of the team at that particular time. The Dobermans were the right nickname for them.

Just had to say that cause it was bubbling in my head and didn't know where else to put it so I posted it here. lol

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]

Look at this defense... [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_O5Fr62OUw#t=2m09s[/url][/QUOTE]

I know

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XrJlj4QcGrI/TZ5_BpxvIEI/AAAAAAAAHOQ/oZagCbBiQiE/s1600/John+Havlicek+SI+Cover+May+9+1966.jpg[/img]


I'll give it to John Havlicek. Hondo won an NBA Finals MVP in 1974. He also has more All NBA First, and Second team selections than Pippen.

Pippen's numbers actually went down in the Chicago Bulls 2nd 3 peat while Hondo remained a consistent top performer for the Boston Celtics.

[B]John Havlicek [/B]

8