Michael Jordan WON a championship by himself. Many are just Ignorant about it on ISH

[QUOTE=jlip][URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7724453&postcount=103"]How scouts and GMs viewed Pippen before he was drafted[/URL][/QUOTE]

Excellent stuff, Jlip! :applause: Let's add Chuck Daly to the list, who early on pegged, correctly, Pippen as a future superstar and realized Detroit was on borrowed time to a large degree because of that.

Pippen was an all-star by his third year and an elite player by his fourth. He was a scrub in high school. I guess it was Mike who took him from a high school scrub to a top 5 pick after college? :rolleyes: Pippen was a unique case where his body developed very late and he did not come from an elite college program as a result. He didn't have a Dean Smith or Bob Knight teaching him in college. Given the facts of Pippen's life, it is not exactly surprising that he developed later than most. The question is whether it was inevitable or a fluke? The evidence suggests the former. You don't get drafted ahead of Reggie Miller, Kevin Johnson, Reggie Lewis, and co. without being perceived as a likely future all-star.

It is funny how MJ fans ignore that Pippen was not even a starter for all of the 1989 season (his second season). They throw his complete statistics out there without providing that important context. As a starter, which he was for most of the season after an early stint on the bench, he posted 16/7/4/2 in 36 minutes. Are these great numbers? No. Are they good, especially for a second year player on a team where one guy took 22 FGA and 10 FTA a game? Yes.

Pippen's per 36 minute production in 1990, his first full season as a starter, resembled his 1989 numbers, with the exception of an increase in assists. The reason his 1990 numbers look better is he averaged 38 minutes a game compared to 33 in 1989.

Did Pippen improve in 1990? Yes, but he wasn't a light years better player in 1990 than 1989 as the "Pippen was a scrub" narrative would have you believe. What he lacked early in his career was minutes. Let's remember his first ever start was Game 5 of the first round in 1988--and Pippen had a huge game as the Bulls finally got out the first round for the first time in the Jordan era (three consecutive first round exits and they were 2-2 and headed to a fourth before Scottie was inserted into the starting lineup).

Another funny thing about this narrative is it pretends every great player posted all-star numbers out the gate. Clyde Drexler averaged 8/3/1 as a rookie--and was deemed as having enough potential that they didn't need to draft Jordan.

Let's also remember MJ himself was not considered the next "sliced bread" player like Shaq, Kareem, or Wilt, for example, were. He was the #3 pick. Jordan did not dominate college or high school like Kareem did. Maybe Dean Smith is what elevated Jordan to the top 5 all-time? That is what the "Jordan made Pippen" logic would suggest. He definitely was not that caliber of a player in, say, 1982. The GOAT, Kareem, was the most dominant player at all three levels of basketball.

[QUOTE=andgar923]We wouldn't be mentioning Pip's name today if it wasn't for MJ, plain and simple.

So he was drafted 5th, so what?

There's been plenty of players drafted just as highly and higher that turned out to be shit. Go look at Pip's rookie and even 2nd year numbers

[B]See This is Why Media Sucks...I Had To Live and Listen to Jordan Stans (Not Real Basketball Fans) For Years. None of Them Knew How Good Pippen Was Because He Wasn`t Scoring 30 PPG but For Real NBA Fans Who Knew The Game and Watched The Whole Scenario We Knew How Good Pippen Was and in 1993-94 It Was Prooven That He Was Easily a Top 6 Player in the League and In a Time Way More Competitive than the 00s and 10s. You had Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq etc. Tough Competition and Pippen Prooved How Good of a Team Player He Is By Making Others Better More than Jordan Could, Rebounding, Stealing, Being the Best Perimeter Defender in the Game, Scoring, Driving to the Basket, Passing the Ball and Handling It With Great Notion etc. Pippen was a Superstar in his Own Right.[/B]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol Krause never said such. You sound worse than some of the Kobe trolls.[/QUOTE]

Yes he did. Ray Clay mentioned this during an interview. He wanted the scorekeepers to pad his stats yelling at them that he was the future of the Bulls.

[QUOTE=LeBird]What about the other way round? Would we mention Jordan as a GOAT candidate without Pippen?

To answer that question myself, I think we might have...but I'd be leaning towards 'no'. Pippen was the perfect fit for someone of Jordan's skills/temperament. Without Pippen being able to mould himself into a great player who didn't get in Jordan's way of persistent possession and aggressive scoring; and allowed Jordan to play his natural game to its highest level... Jordan could have just been another Elgin Baylor: great stats, 0 titles.[/QUOTE]
Who knows if he would've won without Pip. Nobody is saying that MJ didn't need him to win.

But there's a difference in making somebody a HOF player, and being instrumental in helping in winning rings. MJ was already killing the league before Pip. People were already saying how special he was, he was already being hailed and breaking records. Some even said he was the best player of all time before he won a ring.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]See This is Why Media Sucks...I Had To Live and Listen to Jordan Stans (Not Real Basketball Fans) For Years. None of Them Knew How Good Pippen Was Because He Wasn`t Scoring 30 PPG but For Real NBA Fans Who Knew The Game and Watched The Whole Scenario We Knew How Good Pippen Was and in 1993-94 It Was Prooven That He Was Easily a Top 6 Player in the League and In a Time Way More Competitive than the 00s and 10s. You had Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq etc. Tough Competition and Pippen Prooved How Good of a Team Player He Is By Making Others Better More than Jordan Could, Rebounding, Stealing, Being the Best Perimeter Defender in the Game, Scoring, Driving to the Basket, Passing the Ball and Handling It With Great Notion etc. Pippen was a Superstar in his Own Right.[/B][/QUOTE]

Nobody is saying he wasn't a great player (superstar is a big reach). What some of us have mentioned is, he wouldn't have been that without MJ.

You wouldn't know about making teammates better since Chuck never did that.

Btw… everything people hail Pip for doing MJ did better.

Yeah including passing and defense.

Pip would get torched far too frequently compared to MJ. Both great help defenders, MJ just better.

[QUOTE=andgar923]Nobody is saying he wasn't a great player (superstar is a big reach). What some of us have mentioned is, he wouldn't have been that without MJ.

You wouldn't know about making teammates better since Chuck never did that.

Btw… everything people hail Pip for doing MJ did better.

Yeah including passing and defense.

Pip would get torched far too frequently compared to MJ. Both great help defenders, MJ just better.[/QUOTE]

:no: :facepalm :rolleyes:

[B]Pippen Was A Better Natural Play-Maker than Jordan and Ofcourse Defender. Don`t Give Me This Crap. His LEAD THE WHOLE PLAY-OFFS IN DEFENSIVE RATING AS A SF and Averaged Great Numbers in the 1991 NBA Finals. He Was a Superstar. Don`t Give Me This Media Fan Boy Hype Crap About Jordan Being Perfect I Was There To Watch Both Join Forces.

Jordan is the Superstar that Benefited the Most By Playing with Great Teamates from 87 on Like Very Few of His Peers from that Era. Having Pippen a Legit Top 6 Player in the Game is Blessing for Any Player, Let Alone the Best Player.

Barkley Not Making Teamates Better? What Drugs Are You Using? Cocaine? Marijuana? Mushrooms?

"for 3 years from 87- 90 Charles was the overall most dominating player in the league when you factored in all categories- points, rebounds, assist, blocks, steals and fg% that is why he won the Schick MVP award for the overall best team player 3 straight years."

Barkley has a Higher Winning% than Jordan, Pippen and Grant from 1987 to 1990 With Weaker Casts. Barkley is 2nd to Magic Ever for Offensive Rating Efficiency Per Possesion All Time (and he had no Jabbar, Worthy, McAdoo and Scorers like that). How is That Not Making Others Better? Barkley Averaged 7 RPG more than Jordan and 1.5 Assist Less while Being the Same Height as Jordan.

Jordan Leaves The Bulls in 1993-94 = Just 2 Wins Less and Pippen Was Robbed Play after Play From the NBA Finals in 7 Games vs the Knicks.

Barkley Leaves Phily what Happened to the Sixers in 1992-93?

Jordan Was Lucky to Play With Pippen in HIS WHOLE PRIME AND PIPS PRIME. LUCKY!!![/B]

[QUOTE=Round Mound]:no: :facepalm :rolleyes:

[B][SIZE="3"]Pippen Was A Better Natural Play-Maker than Jordan and Ofcourse Defender. Don`t Give Me This Crap[/SIZE]. His LEAD THE WHOLE PLAY-OFFS IN DEFENSIVE RATING AS A SF and Averaged Great Numbers in the 1991 NBA Finals. He Was a Superstar. Don`t Give Me This Media Fan Boy Hype Crap About Jordan Being Perfect I Was There To Watch Both Join Forces.

Jordan is the Superstar that Benefited the Most By Playing with Great Teamates from 87 on Like Very Few of His Peers from that Era. Having Pippen a Legit Top 6 Player in the Game is Blessing for Any Player, Let Alone the Best Player.

Barkley Not Making Teamates Better? What Drugs Are You Using? Cocaine? Marijuana? Mushrooms?

"for 3 years from 87- 90 Charles was the overall most dominating player in the league when you factored in all categories- points, rebounds, assist, blocks, steals and fg% that is why he won the Schick MVP award for the overall best team player 3 straight years."

Barkley has a Higher Winning% than Jordan, Pippen and Grant from 1987 to 1990 With Weaker Casts. Barkley is 2nd to Magic Ever for Offensive Rating Efficiency Per Possesion All Time (and he had no Jabbar, Worthy, McAdoo and Scorers like that). How is That Not Making Others Better? Barkley Averaged 7 RPG more than Jordan and 1.5 Assist Less while Being the Same Height as Jordan.

Jordan Leaves The Bulls in 1993-94 = Just 2 Wins Less and Pippen Was Robbed Play after Play From the NBA Finals in 7 Games vs the Knicks.

Barkley Leaves Phily what Happened to the Sixers in 1992-93?

[SIZE="3"]Jordan Was Lucky to Play With Pippen in HIS WHOLE PRIME AND PIPS PRIME. LUCKY!!![/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

[B]Fact 1[/B]: Pipped LOOKED naturally better playmaker because all focus on offense & defense was on MJ. MJ was the REAL & ONLY Natural leader & playmaker of Bulls.

another example, Kobe looked terrific 30 ppg player as Shaq's 2nd fiddle when all the offense & defensive focus was built built on stopping shaq.

[COLOR="DarkRed"][/COLOR][B]Same Pippen struggled to be natural leader & playmaker for PORTLAND & 1994-1995 BULLS without MJ. With MJ, with all the main responsibility of offense & winning on MJ, Pippen LOOKED good. But not soo good without MJ as BULL & BLAZER & ROCKET!

in other words, Pippen is EXTREMELY LUCKLY to play as a side kick of GOAT.Other players like Clyde, Barkley, Ewing etc etc would've probably become better side kick than Pippen playing alongside GOAT. we'll never know.[/B]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Who knows if he would've won without Pip. Nobody is saying that MJ didn't need him to win.

But there's a difference in making somebody a HOF player, and being instrumental in helping in winning rings. MJ was already killing the league before Pip. People were already saying how special he was, he was already being hailed and breaking records. Some even said he was the best player of all time before he won a ring.[/QUOTE]

Jordan didn't make Pippen a HOFer. Pippen would've likely gotten there himself. Heck, he was arguably the MVP the year Jordan left. I don't think we saw Pippen reach his ceiling because of the role he played for Jordan and for his team to win.

While Jordan was the better player, I think the irony is that Jordan would've had a worse career had he not met Pippen and I think Pippen would've had a better career without Jordan. Not in the sense that Pippen would've won more titles elsewhere, but in the sense that people wouldn't view him as simply Jordan's sidekick and people like yourself wouldn't say such things as "Jordan made Pippen".

It must suck to be a Jordan stan. Your favorite player is done for playing good. So all you can do is root for the other great players to fail :oldlol:

[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]It must suck to be a Jordan stan. Your favorite player is done for playing good. So all you can do is root for the other great players to fail :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBseRlgoSLc[/url]

This performance is literally worth 50 regular season games with +60% shooting.

Scouts and GM's take??? :roll: Should I post Kwame Brown's

Of course Pip had talent, but acting like Jordan had no influence or didn't help mold it, is comical. Its been said Pip admired Jordan, how Jordan took him under his wing and would work with him after practice. He saw Pip's potential and after getting his ass handed too him, had a player who listened and wasn't scared to learn. Pip himself stated most of his instincts came from going against Jordan daily, how his defense improved from guarding Jordan daily. Yet according to you guys none of this benefited Pippen:oldlol:

[I]With fellow Bull Michael Jordan as a motivational and instructional mentor, Pippen refined his skills and slowly developed many new ones over his career. Jordan and Pippen frequently played one-on-one outside of team practices simply to hone each other's skills on offense and defense[/I]


[I]Michael Jordan took Pippen under his wing, and became his mentor along with a competitive teammate. [B]Both the players were known to practice alone in order to work on each other’s skills and abilities[/B]. As time went on, Pippen worked on improving his skills.[/I]

I love how people use the 94 season as proof....last time I checked that player was a result of what tireless workout sessions with Jordan and seeing a all time great play every night.

From Pip himself: While Jordan’s torrid scoring would slightly slow over the years and he learned to put greater reliance on teammates,[B] it was the endless practice sessions that Pippen said in which the greatest improvements were made.[/B]

“He was very competitive, [B]so he went at me and that helped me learn[/B],” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Maybe Dean Smith is what elevated Jordan to the top 5 all-time? That is what the "Jordan made Pippen" logic would suggest. [/QUOTE]

I got out of this discussion with 97 Bulls cause I wasn't really getting any good responses back to my points and was basically stating the same thing over and over again. But I just want to point out, whether you think I'm overstating Jordan's impact on Pippen or not, with all the perceived discrediting of Pippen I was accused of just cause I brought up Jordan being instrumental to Pippen's success, I brought up this Dean Smith/Jordan example multiple times to illustrate that it doesn't take anything away from Pippen cause then you could apply that same logic to Jordan with Dean Smith, and really anyone in history cause they usually learn from someone. I just don't think it should diminish Jordan at all by assuming that any other superstar would've done the same thing or to the same extent.

[QUOTE=LeBird]

While Jordan was the better player, I think the irony is that Jordan would've had a worse career had he not met Pippen and I think Pippen would've had a better career without Jordan. Not in the sense that Pippen would've won more titles elsewhere, but in the sense that people wouldn't view him as simply Jordan's sidekick and people like yourself wouldn't say such things as "Jordan made Pippen".[/QUOTE]

There's really no one from the late 80s-90s that is mentioned more then Pippen except for Jordan, and probably the only players from that era that people definitely rank over him are Jordan and Hakeem, and most rank Barkley and Malone over him as well. Players like David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, and Gary Payton are mentioned nowhere near as much and most of the time are considered below them. If Pippen is on another team, he's most likely rarely ever mentioned just like those other players with barely as many people expressing such a high opinion for him.

By the way, I left out Shaq cause most of his career and success and came after the 90s.

[QUOTE=guy]I got out of this discussion with 97 Bulls cause I wasn't really getting any good responses back to my points and was basically stating the same thing over and over again. But I just want to point, whether you think I'm overstating Jordan's impact on Pippen or not, with all the perceived discrediting of Pippen I was accused of just cause I brought up Jordan being instrumental to Pippen's success, I brought up this Dean Smith/Jordan example multiple times to illustrate that it doesn't take anything away from Pippen cause then you could apply that same logic to Jordan with Dean Smith, and really anyone in history cause they usually learn from someone. I just don't think it should diminish Jordan at all by assuming that any other superstar would've done the same thing or to the same extent.[/QUOTE]

I doubt anybody is arguing that Dean made MJ into a better player. Hell, we can even go as far as to say that Larry Jordan (his brother) pushed MJ to become better.

These Pippen fans get so upset over it, even tho it is a FACT. Pip, Mj, coaches, teammates, players, journalists, they've all stated this. Not something we made up or are exaggerating.

They simply will never understand this.

They take it as a slap in the face "Oh you Jordan stans are the worst!!!" but we're simply stating the FACTS. But

[QUOTE=LeBird]Jordan didn't make Pippen a HOFer. Pippen would've likely gotten there himself. Heck, he was arguably the MVP the year Jordan left. I don't think we saw Pippen reach his ceiling because of the role he played for Jordan and for his team to win.

While Jordan was the better player, I think the irony is that Jordan would've had a worse career had he not met Pippen and I think Pippen would've had a better career without Jordan. Not in the sense that Pippen would've won more titles elsewhere, but in the sense that people wouldn't view him as simply Jordan's sidekick and people like yourself wouldn't say such things as "Jordan made Pippen".[/QUOTE]

Right. Just like Lebron would've had a worse career had he not joined forces w/ Wade and Miami. One could also argue Wade would've had a better career.

Matter of fact, now that I think about it, the same applies for Bird / Mchale. Crazy.

[QUOTE=LeBird][B][SIZE="4"]Jordan didn't make Pippen a HOFer. Pippen would've likely gotten there himself.[/SIZE][/B] Heck, he was arguably the MVP the year Jordan left. I don't think we saw Pippen reach his ceiling because of the role he played for Jordan and for his team to win.

While Jordan was the better player, [B][SIZE="3"]I think the irony is that Jordan would've had a worse career had he not met Pippen and I think Pippen would've had a better career without Jordan.[/SIZE][/B] Not in the sense that Pippen would've won more titles elsewhere, but in the sense that people wouldn't view him as simply Jordan's sidekick and people like yourself wouldn't say such things as "Jordan made Pippen".[/QUOTE]

[U][B]Fact # 1[/B][/U]: Because [B]Pippen never had a proper offensive skillset[/B] like Kobe, wade etc, he was bound to make it to all-star RESERVES or 1-2 years as all-star STARTER in his absolute peak prime.

THATS ABOUT IT !!!!!.

[B]Pippen's offensive was mostly in transition, attacking the basket[/B]. Pippen struggled with his jump shot throughout his career. [B]Pippen's decision making was often criticized in very close game[/B] as he did not had proper post-up game or even a pull-up jumper or even a mid-range game.

Pippen's whole career, you see his scoring bounces off MJs primary offensive moves. He wanted to score but he was NOT wade-like, LBJ-like, Durant-like or Kobe-like. [B]His release on his jumpshot was awkward too like too stiff & wooden hence hit the iron harder & bounced off it wasnt swishing. His FT% even more horrendrous.[/B]

[B][U]The following things happened as Jordan took Pippen into his wings & improved him in practices:[/U][/B]

[I]-Pippen immitated MJ in head fakes, fake moves, jab step fake & footwork.
-Pippen immitated MJ around the basket to finish off dunks & up & under lay ups.
-Pippen's defense became unstoppable as he guarded MJ in every practice.
-Pippen became a HOF player because of MJ.
-Pippen became Top 5 NBA Players in his peak prime because of MJ.
-Pippen consistantly became an all-star STARTER because of MJ.
-Pippen was rated ahead of better players than him like Dominique, Ewing, Clyde, Barkley etc etc whom all had better jumpers, offense & team leadership than Scottie ever did.[/I]

[B]despite practicing with MJ & playing 11 yrs along side MJ. Pippen still had glaring difficulty in shooting mid-range to long range Jumpshots.[/B]

[I][B]-His release was still too hard & awkward.
-He barely got 6 inches in the air for "jump"shot. :facepalm hence his shots hit the rim harder more often than[/B][/I]

A reason why despite signing 65 million dollar 4 yrs contract with HOU & PORTLAND, pippen failed in his leadership badly. His jumpshot was exposed. His leadership was badly exposed by KINGS & Shaq & Kobe led LAL in post-season.

Basketball is a team sport. No one has and no one will ever win a game, a series or championship by himself.

[QUOTE=trabash]Basketball is a team sport. No one has and no one will ever win a game, a series or championship by himself.[/QUOTE]

But still.

-MJ made Pippen a 1st ballot HOF.
-MJ made Pippen a Top 20 NBA players ever.
-MJ made Pippen into Top 5 NBA players in his peak prime.

What Pippen made of himself:

-All-star RESERVE
-All-star STARTER for 2-3 season.

which he was GOOD ENOUGH for.

Rest of the Pippen's career is all thanks to playing alongside GOAT.

I can see 1990 - 1998 MJ winning 6 rings with following duos:

-Jordan/Drexler
-Jordan/'Nique
-Jordan/Barkley
-Jordan/Ewing
-Jordan/Mourning

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Right. Just like Lebron would've had a worse career had he not joined forces w/ Wade and Miami. One could also argue Wade would've had a better career.

Matter of fact, now that I think about it, the same applies for Bird / Mchale. Crazy.[/QUOTE]
So why is this logic only applied to Scottie Pippen?

The problem is Guy, Andgar, and Ghengis feel that only Michael Jordan could mold Scottie Pippen into the player we saw. That I disagree with. Did he help in the development of Pippen? Emphatically YES. But I stop short at this assumption that Jordan and Jordan only couldve shown Pip the way. As if another franchise couldn't find.another great player to mentor him. And this doesn't even factor in why Pippen was the only player Jordan was able to help.

Whats more, the very things you guys penalize Pippen for, scoring and man defense, is the thing id credit Jordan for having the biggest hand in. Whay made Pippen great was his versatility. And his great help defense. As well as his ability to be a 6'8'PG.

No one ever won a title by themselves because there are 4 other players on the floor at the same time with you. If winning a title by yourself means the team won a title and you were the only player who made the allstar team, then just say so and so won a title as the only player who actually was an allstar that season.

There are some really absurd things being said here. You guys really think MJ's a god.. he didn't rest on the 7th day, he handcrafted Pippen right? :lol

It doesn't even matter, which is true. Who cares.

It's like the MVP for this season.. if it's LeBron or Durant.. who cares.. one of them will win it. It's not that big of a deal with either way. Both of them are the top 2 players in the league.. MVP doesn't change that.

Doesn't need a daily report on the progress of it, and who is now leading the race.

All of this type of stuff is just fanboy logic.. that people use to argue shit in their favour.. because they have too much time on their hands. And no one really gives a shit either way.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]The problem is Guy, Andgar, and Ghengis feel that only Michael Jordan could mold Scottie Pippen into the player we saw. That I disagree with. Did he help in the development of Pippen? Emphatically YES. But I stop short at this assumption that Jordan and Jordan only couldve shown Pip the way. As if another franchise couldn't find.another great player to mentor him. And this doesn't even factor in why Pippen was the only player Jordan was able to help.

Whats more, the very things you guys penalize Pippen for, scoring and man defense, is the thing id credit Jordan for having the biggest hand in. Whay made Pippen great was his versatility. And his great help defense. As well as his ability to be a 6'8'PG.[/QUOTE]

I've never said Jordan and only Jordan could've molded Pippen that way. I've said that I highly doubt that that many people could, specifically other superstars, which was the main argument in the beginning because the whole comparison I was pointing to was Jordan and other superstars, specifically their teammates and how fortunate they supposedly were relative to the other.

Maybe I haven't expanded on my position enough but to me its because as far as Pippen's defense goes, who better to practice against then the greatest wing scorer of all-time and who better to learn from then arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all-time? As far as his scoring goes, who better to practice against then arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all-time and who better to learn from then the greatest wing scorer of all-time? On top of that, it was with someone that was a fierce competitor and tireless work ethic, which makes a much bigger difference then if it was with someone like Charles Barkley, Tracy McGrady, Dwyane Wade, etc. On top of that, as far as experience goes, he was less likely get the experience of going deep in the playoffs every year with another superstar other then Jordan at the time, unless it was with another superstar that had an already established roster which means there's a good chance he has a lesser role, and that experience makes players better.

And just to clarify, I've never said that if he couldn't become the player he was with Jordan, that he wouldn't have still been a good or great player.

[QUOTE=9erempiree]Jordan was playing against weak 6 footers. He was being guarded by these guys.:oldlol:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFDTe5kqxKM[/url][/QUOTE]
Eric Snow?

[QUOTE=chazzy]There are some really absurd things being said here.[B] You guys really think MJ's a god[/B].. he didn't rest on the 7th day, he handcrafted Pippen right? :lol[/QUOTE]
He is THE basketball GOD, bow you lowly subject with your worship of the false god known as Gawdbe!
Burn in the hell fires of Hades you ignorant lot, you worshippers of a leper messiah! Your soul will suffer infinite deaths for ever thinking Gawdbe was our true God and savior! Die you maggot infested heretics!

[SIZE="7"]BURN!!![/SIZE]
[IMG]http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/7b/10/86/michael-jordan-statue.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]It must suck to be a Jordan stan. Your favorite player is done for playing good. So all you can do is root for the other great players to fail :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Isn't that what you basically do when trashing LBJ's current competition?:oldlol:

Hypocrite:facepalm

[QUOTE=TheMan]He is THE basketball GOD, bow you lowly subject with your worship of the false god known as Gawdbe!
Burn in the hell fires of Hades you ignorant lot, you worshippers of a leper messiah! Your soul will suffer infinite deaths for ever thinking Gawdbe was our true God and savior! Die you maggot infested heretics!

[SIZE="7"]BURN!!![/SIZE]
[IMG]http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/7b/10/86/michael-jordan-statue.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ibz6e8ev4lfuwa.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy][IMG]http://i.minus.com/ibz6e8ev4lfuwa.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
:cheers:
A fellow believer whose soul shall be spared the wrath of GOD
[IMG]http://canastad2.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/michael-jordan-acrylic.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/7b/10/86/michael-jordan-statue.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://images.wildammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/080326-jordan-dunk.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkyu2e2R801qc15q3o1_400.gif[/IMG]

I hope I can sit at the feet of our savior, for posting these two gifs and believing he is the best player I saw

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Right. Just like Lebron would've had a worse career had he not joined forces w/ Wade and Miami. One could also argue Wade would've had a better career.

Matter of fact, now that I think about it, the same applies for Bird / Mchale. Crazy.[/QUOTE]

Sure, but there is a difference: Bird was going to win no matter what. Even without McHale/Parish he took his team to the #1 best record in his Rookie season. He wasn't reliant on a specific teammate. That's the point. I think Jordan has a very small list of players he could have had as teammates to have succeeded and he was lucky he got the best one - Pippen, who was willing to be a lesser player in order to win more.

Bird, Lebron, they just needed a good team. It didn't necessarily matter the kind of players they got because they are so adjustable. Jordan was one-track for most of his career.

[QUOTE=guy]I've never said Jordan and only Jordan could've molded Pippen that way. I've said that I highly doubt that that many people could, specifically other superstars, which was the main argument in the beginning because the whole comparison I was pointing to was Jordan and other superstars, specifically their teammates and how fortunate they supposedly were relative to the other.

Maybe I haven't expanded on my position enough but to me its because as far as Pippen's defense goes, who better to practice against then the greatest wing scorer of all-time and who better to learn from then arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all-time? As far as his scoring goes, who better to practice against then arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all-time and who better to learn from then the greatest wing scorer of all-time? On top of that, it was with someone that was a fierce competitor and tireless work ethic, which makes a much bigger difference then if it was with someone like Charles Barkley, Tracy McGrady, Dwyane Wade, etc. On top of that, as far as experience goes, he was less likely get the experience of going deep in the playoffs every year with another superstar other then Jordan at the time, unless it was with another superstar that had an already established roster which means there's a good chance he has a lesser role, and that experience makes players better.

And just to clarify, I've never said that if he couldn't become the player he was with Jordan, that he wouldn't have still been a good or great player.[/QUOTE]
You always start your post by stating you never said yada, yada, yada. But then everything you post afterward goes contrary to that statement. At least the other two are man enough to admit they feel Jordan made Pippen.

Fact is none of us know how Pippen wouldve faired without Jordans influence. All signs point to his being successful. Hell he became everything scouts felt hed become. And this was before he even met Michael Jordan.

Most importantly, why does this need to become an issue? Im sure Bird and Mchale practiced post moves on each other. Who gets penalised? Jabaar taught Magic how to do that baby hook shot. Do we penalize Magic? Jordan stated Pippen helped his game as well. Mainly teamwork. Do we penalize Jordan?

Thats what teammates do. Thats why they practice.

[QUOTE=LeBird]Sure, but there is a difference: Bird was going to win no matter what. Even without McHale/Parish he took his team to the #1 best record in his Rookie season. He wasn't reliant on a specific teammate. That's the point. I think Jordan has a very small list of players he could have had as teammates to have succeeded and he was lucky he got the best one - Pippen, who was willing to be a lesser player in order to win more.

Bird, Lebron, they just needed a good team. It didn't necessarily matter the kind of players they got because they are so adjustable. Jordan was one-track for most of his career.[/QUOTE]
Be realistic bro. Bird wasnt the sole reason the Celtics fortunes began to turn. If you feel that way, youre no better than them

We've had this discussion before; Bird was far and away the most important factor in that turnaround. It's not really arguable.

All players - be it Bird or Jordan - need teammates to achieve things. That's not the point though.

[QUOTE=LeBird]Sure, but there is a difference: Bird was going to win no matter what. Even without McHale/Parish he took his team to the #1 best record in his Rookie season. He wasn't reliant on a specific teammate. That's the point. I think Jordan has a very small list of players he could have had as teammates to have succeeded and he was lucky he got the best one - Pippen, who was willing to be a lesser player in order to win more.

Bird, Lebron, they just needed a good team. It didn't necessarily matter the kind of players they got because they are so adjustable. Jordan was one-track for most of his career.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Not gonna even bother with this bullshit, because that's what IT is, bullshit.

[QUOTE=LeBird]
Bird, Lebron, they just needed a good team. It didn't necessarily matter the kind of players they got because they are so adjustable. Jordan was one-track for most of his career.[/QUOTE]

**** outta here with this noise. :oldlol: You can't look at what ACTUALLY HAPPENED (Jordan winning with a certain team) and conclude that that's the way it HAD TO happen. Fact is, Jordan simply never had a good team around him aside from the championship years and '90.

Many players didn't have good teams and got them to far more success than Jordan did. That's just a fact. Bird, Lebron, Russell, etc got what they had and made do.

Jordan couldn't even get to .500 without Pippen and Grant. The Jordan fans rewriting history...what else is new?

[QUOTE=LeBird]Many players didn't have good teams and got them to far more success than Jordan did. That's just a fact. Bird, Lebron, Russell, etc got what they had and made do.

[B][COLOR="Red"]Is this a joke?[/COLOR][/B]

Jordan couldn't even get to .500 without Pippen and Grant. The Jordan fans rewriting history...what else is new?[/QUOTE]

This is extremely misleading on many levels.