Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

[QUOTE=Raymone]Can you imagine if LeBron got half as many FTs as Durant?[/QUOTE]

He actually already gets more than half as many FTs as Durant. You're a b1tch.

[QUOTE=Psycho]He actually already gets more than half as many FTs as Durant. You're a b1tch.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :lol
these youngsters..... :facepalm

[QUOTE=DatAsh]That's not the point. The point is that equalizing minutes does nothing but increase or decrease the raw totals. You addressed none of the points I made.[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to affect anything. I'm saying that the players should be given the same amount of time on the court.

Stop pretending like fga mean anything. They don't. I'm not saying minutes are an indicator of anything. I'm saying that the opportunity to get fouled per game should be the same.

The only way to equalize that is to have them on the court the same amount of time.

Your other points don't make sense...

[QUOTE=DatAsh]This statement just shows a lack of understanding.[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about.

Harden, Durant, and Kobe all shoot more free throws than Melo. Yet Melo takes more shots than all of them. He also takes more shots at the rim than all of them.

The two arguments your side posted were shots at the rim and overall fga. And they aren't good indicators on the top 4 ft shooters in the league. So why hold to them so tightly?

Do you not see why I don't care about your metrics? Out of the top 4...the guy shooting the least fga...shoots the most free throws. The guy shooting the most fga...shoots the last free throws. The guy shooting the most shots at the rim per game...shoots the least amount of free throws.

Hell, throw in Lebron and Westbrook....who shoot more shots at the rim than the other 4 guys above...and they shoot less free throws than them all.

Can you really not see why I don't think those two things matter all that much?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm not trying to affect anything. I'm saying that the players should be given the same amount of time on the court.
[/QUOTE]

If it doesn't affect the discussion at hand at all, why mess with it? Should we also equalize the number of cars that each player owns?

To be fair, there might be some argument for correlation, but I've never seen anyone make it, and it could honestly go either way.

[QUOTE]Stop pretending like fga mean anything. [/QUOTE]

So stop pretending that a fact is true? That's basically what you're saying here.

[QUOTE]The only way to equalize that is to have them on the court the same amount of time.[/QUOTE]

It's equalized by default, that's where the misunderstanding lies.

[QUOTE]Your other points don't make sense...[/QUOTE]

Which points?

[QUOTE=DatAsh]If it doesn't affect the discussion at hand at all, why mess with it? Should we also equalize the number of cars that each player owns?

To be fair, there might be some argument for correlation, but I've never seen anyone make it, and it could honestly go either way.



So stop pretending that a fact is true? That's basically what you're saying here.



It's equalized by default, that's where the misunderstanding lies.



Which points?[/QUOTE]

It's equalized by default if you think fga vs fta is a direct correlation. We've already blown that out of the water. Same with attempts at the rim.

I'll do it again.

Here are the 2 arguments that your side has made. FGA and shots at the rim.

Both do not hold true for the top 4 guys...what we have been discussing about.

And the shots at the rim do not hold true for Lebron or Westbrook. Westbrook shoots more shots at the rim than both Harden and Durant...and he takes more shots than both of them. Yet he shoots less free throws.

Melo is the same way.

Kobe takes more shots at the rim than Durant...and more shots overall...and he shoots less free throws.

Minutes on the court should be even because the only time you can get fouled is if you are on the court. You don't have to be taking a fga to get fouled so it's not the same at all. What players do on the court is up to them. Again..not saying it is a huge factor. But it is a factor.

What seems to be lost in all of this is that Durant and Harden both play to get fouled. It is part of their game...they try to draw fouls a lot. The other guys don't as much. That is probably the biggest factor.

But no...lets keep pretending that Melo taking a bunch of long jumpers every game impacts how often he gets to the line. :facepalm

Lets try this another way.

Kobe takes 1.5 more shots than Westbrook a game. Kobe also takes 1.5 more threes...not to mention more bad shots and long shots. But let's just even them up by reducing Kobe's threes to westbrooks.

So they both then take 18.9 shots a game.

Westbrook takes 1.6 more shots at the rim each game. Yet Kobe shoots .8 more free throws per game.

Why? Westbrook attacks more. Gets to the rim more. Somehow Kobe taking a handful of more long/bad shots per game impacts his free throws enough to warrant him taking almost 1 more free throw per game?

Makes no sense if what your side is arguing for is accurate...but thankfully it isn't.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It's equalized by default if you think [B]fga vs fta is a direct correlation.[/B][/QUOTE] The bolded is provably false. Why would I believe something that's provably false?

[QUOTE]We've already blown that out of the water.[/QUOTE]
It was blown out of the water from the get-go, you had absolutely no hand in that.

[QUOTE]Here are the 2 arguments that your side has made. FGA and shots at the rim.[/QUOTE]
This is another strawman. You're arguing against a point I never made.

[QUOTE]Both do not hold true for the top 4 guys...what we have been discussing about.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. That's what makes them so much better at getting to the line.

[QUOTE]And the shots at the rim do not hold true for Lebron or Westbrook. Westbrook shoots more shots at the rim than both Harden and Durant...and he takes more shots than both of them. Yet he shoots less free throws.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, Westbrook is another one who I'd say gets hacked more than he gets credit for.

[QUOTE]Kobe takes more shots at the rim than Durant...and more shots overall...and he shoots less free throws.[/QUOTE]
Yep, and that's why I say Durant is much better at getting to the line.

[QUOTE]Minutes on the court should be even because the only time you can get fouled is if you are on the court. You don't have to be taking a fga to get fouled so it's not the same at all. What players do on the court is up to them. Again..not saying it is a huge factor. But it is a factor.[/QUOTE]
My intuition would tell me that rate decreases as minutes increase, but I've never seen any sort of stats related to such a thing. Without some kind of applicable correlation, you're just multiplying by a common factor and not changing the rate at all.

[QUOTE]What seems to be lost in all of this is that Durant and Harden both play to get fouled. It is part of their game...they try to draw fouls a lot. The other guys don't as much. That is probably the biggest factor.[/QUOTE]
You're right here, and I actually don't see anything wrong with playing for the foul, if it works.

I don't think Durant is a better scorer than Kobe, Melo , or LeBron. He's a shooter much like Dirk, only he's superior at putting the ball on the ground, slashing, and has more athletic ability. But the soft calls he gets, combined with the absurd amount of free throws that pad his scoring numbers are making me second guess him and actually root against him. The way the league is manufacturing his performances is appalling.

Some well put arguments the last couple pages for both sides
:cheers: :applause

sorry, do not have anything to add to the discussion until I read this thread and have a better informed opinion

[QUOTE=DatAsh]The bolded is provably false. Why would I believe something that's provably false?


It was blown out of the water from the get-go, you had absolutely no hand in that.


This is another strawman. You're arguing against a point I never made.


Exactly. That's what makes them so much better at getting to the line.


Exactly, Westbrook is another one who I'd say gets hacked more than he gets credit for.


Yep, and that's why I say Durant is much better at getting to the line.


My intuition would tell me that rate decreases as minutes increase, but I've never seen any sort of stats related to such a thing. Without some kind of applicable correlation, you're just multiplying by a common factor and not changing the rate at all.


You're right here, and I actually don't see anything wrong with playing for the foul, if it works.[/QUOTE]

So...is your issue that Harden and Durant and I guess...Kobe? get to the line too often compared to other players. Or that Westbrook and Melo and Lebron don't get enough calls?

I know it's kind of the same thing, but the difference between a guy like Harden and Westbrook, for example, is that Harden plays to get fouled while Westbrook plays to score. Not all of the time, but there is a clear cut difference between playing styles.

So doesn't that seem like the biggest factor?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]So...is your issue that Harden and Durant and I guess...Kobe? get to the line too often compared to other players. Or that Westbrook and Melo and Lebron don't get enough calls?

I know it's kind of the same thing, but the difference between a guy like Harden and Westbrook, for example, is that [B]Harden plays to get fouled[/B] while Westbrook plays to score. Not all of the time, but there is a clear cut difference between playing styles.

So doesn't that seem like the biggest factor?[/QUOTE]
Meh. Playing to draw a foul is a perfectly legitimate strategy. It's still an actual foul. There's a difference between

A) -baiting legit fouls

or

B) -phantom fouls
-getting FTs for something that by NBA rules isn't supposed to result in FTs
-really weak questionable minimal contact fouls.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Meh. Playing to draw a foul is a perfectly legitimate strategy. It's still an actual foul. There's a difference between

A) -baiting legit fouls

or

B) -phantom fouls
-getting FTs for something that by NBA rules isn't supposed to result in FTs
-really weak questionable minimal contact fouls.[/QUOTE]

You simply don't watch enough of the games of all the players in question to make the claim that one player gets more phantom calls than the other.

It's called confirmation bias...and unless you've watched virtually every Thunder, Knicks, Lakers, and Rockets game...you simply can't say that.

But even if I concede that Durant and Harden get more BS calls. What is the ultimate impact of that? How often more is it happening. This is where the margins come in as small and what I was saying earlier.

Even if you say Durant isn't better at drawing fouls and he's just reffed differently, it's still only leading to 1.8 more free throws per game. I'm not saying that isn't a big difference, but Durant scoring an extra 1.6 ppg off undeserved free throws is simply not worth bitching about to the extreme some people are.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/jef6a.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Unstoppabull][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/jef6a.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Here's a thought. Durant gets so many fouls, is the same reason Harden gets so many foul calls. It's not like James Harden down in Houston is some massively marketable superstar; you can change your game to make people foul you. I believe they both model their game at trying to draw fouls. Oh yea not to mention Harden's a better flopper than any of them.

It does make sense tho. People will generally play off of LeBron more often, to stop his drives to the rim. No one will want to foul LeBron when he drives to the rim because they know it's a fruitless attempt; he's going to finish through that little contact anyways. It's not as simple as seeing who gets more shots at the rim to determine how many FT's they are allotted.

However when playing Durant, players tend to play him much tighter. One, he is actually a dangerous outside shooter, and two, he is much softer and weaker. One reason he gets more calls than Lebron and Carmelo is because he's weaker. This way, when he's fouled, it's a lot easier to spot. You'll see big guys like Lebron get hacked by some guard and it won't affect them at all; they just power through as if they were untouched. With Durant however, he's physically moved and you can clearly see the change to his shot. Basically, it's really difficult to miss a foul on Durant because it bothers him so much. Also, his arms are like giant squid tentacles, they flail around a lot, so it's really easy to hit them. In short, Risking the foul on Durant is much more effective than just letting him shoot.

[QUOTE=Unstoppabull][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/jef6a.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll:

I haven't read 1 post in this thread, but being able to get FT's a part of the package. If it allows him to get a third of his 30 or so points, then yes he is a good scorer. As long as he can put points up in the board, I don't care how he does it. 1 point = 1 point.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You simply don't watch enough of the games of all the players in question to make the claim that one player gets more phantom calls than the other.

It's called confirmation bias...and unless you've watched virtually every Thunder, Knicks, Lakers, and Rockets game...you simply can't say that.

But even if I concede that Durant and Harden get more BS calls. What is the ultimate impact of that? How often more is it happening. This is where the margins come in as small and what I was saying earlier.

Even if you say Durant isn't better at drawing fouls and he's just reffed differently, it's still only leading to 1.8 more free throws per game. I'm not saying that isn't a big difference, but Durant scoring an extra 1.6 ppg off undeserved free throws is simply not worth bitching about to the extreme some people are.[/QUOTE]
Who do you think first brought this to people's attention? I was the first one on here bitching about how soft Durant/OKC get called on offense but gets away with hacking on defense.

I remember I was going crazy during the OKC/Dallas series and some people finally saw what I was talking about but most people just kept telling me to "shut up" and "stop trolling", but people are finally catching up and realizing I was right all along.

It's not even the actual calls that fcuk it up. I know it only 1.6 points. It doesn't matter though. It's the message that the refs set one tone for one team and a different tone for the other.

When the refs set the tone for one team that "No, we're calling it tight tonight" but for OKC it's "No, we're going loose. We're gonna let you guys get in there and D up". That affects how you play. You can't set 2 different tones and then also go out of your way to make sure the other team is in the penalty a couple minutes into each quarter.

[QUOTE=Unstoppabull]Here's a thought. Durant gets so many fouls, is the same reason Harden gets so many foul calls. It's not like James Harden down in Houston is some massively marketable superstar; you can change your game to make people foul you. I believe they both model their game at trying to draw fouls. Oh yea not to mention Harden's a better flopper than any of them.

It does make sense tho. People will generally play off of LeBron more often, to stop his drives to the rim. No one will want to foul LeBron when he drives to the rim because they know it's a fruitless attempt; he's going to finish through that little contact anyways. It's not as simple as seeing who gets more shots at the rim to determine how many FT's they are allotted.

However when playing Durant, players tend to play him much tighter. One, he is actually a dangerous outside shooter, and two, he is much softer and weaker. [B]One reason he gets more calls than Lebron and Carmelo is because he's weaker. This way, when he's fouled, it's a lot easier to spot. You'll see big guys like Lebron get hacked by some guard and it won't affect them at all; they just power through as if they were untouched. With Durant however, he's physically moved and you can clearly see the change to his shot. [/B]Basically, it's really difficult to miss a foul on Durant because it bothers him so much. Also, his arms are like giant squid tentacles, they flail around a lot, so it's really easy to hit them. In short, Risking the foul on Durant is much more effective than just letting him shoot.[/QUOTE]
:applause:

How hard is it to understand? It's this, and that's as simple as it gets.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]When the refs set the tone for one team that "No, we're calling it tight tonight" but for OKC it's "No, we're going loose. We're gonna let you guys get in there and D up". That affects how you play. You can't set 2 different tones and then also go out of your way to make sure the other team is in the penalty a couple minutes into each quarter.[/QUOTE]

You have to give some credit to the player though. If it was so easy to get to the line like that, everyone would do it.

People did the same thing with MJ...they bitched an bitched and bitched about his free throws.

If it's so easy...get to the line more. My point is that it's not easy and that guys like Durant and Harden deserve credit.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]When the refs set the tone for one team that "No, we're calling it tight tonight" but for OKC it's "No, we're going loose. We're gonna let you guys get in there and D up". That affects how you play. You can't set 2 different tones and then also go out of your way to make sure the other team is in the penalty a couple minutes into each quarter.[/QUOTE]
Mad as fuq as always. ****ing love it :lol Get a life you salty princess :sleeping

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You have to give some credit to the player though. If it was so easy to get to the line like that, everyone would do it.

People did the same thing with MJ...they bitched an bitched and bitched about his free throws.

If it's so easy...get to the line more. My point is that it's not easy and that guys like Durant and Harden deserve credit.[/QUOTE]
How exactly do you go about getting the refs to blow the whistle when nobody fouled you? Stop playing dumb. Let's not act like this is some kind of special skill that Durant possess that others simply lack. There's obviously an agenda to push this guy.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]How exactly do you go about getting the refs to blow the whistle when nobody fouled you? Stop playing dumb. Let's not act like this is some kind of special skill that Durant possess that others simply lack. There's obviously an agenda to push this guy.[/QUOTE]

Then you are saying that all the refs get together and agree to give phantom calls to Durant and Harden.

So what is more likely? That Harden and Durant do something to get more calls?...or that there is a conspiracy?

Really take a minute and think about it.

stats paddar,protected by the refs = KD :hammerhead:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Then you are saying that all the refs get together and agree to give phantom calls to Durant and Harden.

So what is more likely? That Harden and Durant do something to get more calls?...or that there is a conspiracy?

[B]Really take a minute and think about it.[/B][/QUOTE]
You are asking one of the most dense trolls on this board to do something his brain can not possibly accomplish.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Then you are saying that all the refs get together and agree to give phantom calls to Durant and Harden.

So what is more likely? That Harden and Durant do something to get more calls?...or that there is a conspiracy?

Really take a minute and think about it.[/QUOTE]
Not a conspiracy, just a benefit of the doubt.

Like if Durant stumbles over his own foot, the ref blows his whistle. It's like he's thinking "Well, Durant just stumbled. Clearly that guy near him MUST have fouled him. I didn't see a foul but what other explanation could there possibly be?".

If Durant loses control of the ball "Oh, KD just lost the handle. That guy must have hit him".


Even OKC fans will admit that shit shit is commonplace for Durant this season. He's not doing it on purpose to strategically get calls. He's just messing up and getting the benefit of the doubt. It's not being unbiased to just pretend this isn't the case.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Not a conspiracy, just a benefit of the doubt.

Like if Durant stumbles over his own foot, the ref blows his whistle. It's like he's thinking "Well, Durant just stumbled. Clearly that guy near him MUST have fouled him. I didn't see a foul but what other explanation could there possibly be?".

If Durant loses control of the ball "Oh, KD just lost the handle. That guy must have hit him".


Even OKC fans will admit that shit shit is commonplace for Durant this season. He's not doing it on purpose to strategically get calls. He's just messing up and getting the benefit of the doubt. It's not being unbiased to just pretend this isn't the case.[/QUOTE]


Again though. Why? It's either Durant doing something to get more of these calls...or you are claiming that refs give Durant the benefit of the doubt for reasons not related to basketball.

Sorry...can't have it both ways.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Again though. Why? It's either Durant doing something to get more of these calls...or you are claiming that refs give Durant the benefit of the doubt for reasons not related to basketball.

Sorry...can't have it both ways.[/QUOTE]
How am I having it both ways? Those two scenario are mutually EXLUSIVE.:hammerhead:

I've been saying this entire time that it's NOT Durant doing something to get calls and it IS the refs giving him the benefit of the doubt. I've been perfectly consistent here.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]
Like if Durant stumbles over his own foot, the ref blows his whistle. It's like he's thinking "Well, Durant just stumbled. Clearly that guy near him MUST have fouled him. I didn't see a foul but what other explanation could there possibly be?".

If Durant loses control of the ball "Oh, KD just lost the handle. That guy must have hit him".
[/QUOTE]
Are there enough examples of this to say it?

[QUOTE=NumberSix]How am I having it both ways? Those two scenario are mutually EXLUSIVE.:hammerhead:

I've been saying this entire time that it's NOT Durant doing something to get calls and it IS the refs giving him the benefit of the doubt. I've been perfectly consistent here.[/QUOTE]

I'm saying it is either a conspiracy or he's doing something. When you have a sample this big with different refs..different games...different circumstances...all of it. And he's getting to the line like he is....it's not a fluke stat anomaly or something.

So all the refs either choose to give Durant phantom calls...or Durant/Harden do things to get the refs to make the calls you are talking about.

That is what I mean by not having it both ways. You can't say it's not a conspiracy type situation...and then say that Durant gets extra free throws each game on phantom calls that you know other players don't get. And then say Durant does nothing to get these calls...he just gets them. That implies a ref conspiracy to give Durant more free throws than other players.

And I asked you to think about it...and I guess you didn't.

One thing that is being overlooked is that all things being even, Durant will still get more foul calls than any of the other superstars because he's a 90% shooter so he'll be the guy shooting ALL technical freethrows (not huge but noteworthy). He also is just better at drawing fouls than the other guys mentioned because of his freakish wingspan, it's simply not enough to put a hand up on his jumpshot like you would do with Lebron, Melo, or Kobe and since he's such a deadeye shooter and so quick for his size he gets fouled at a much higher rate when he puts the ball on the floor. The fact of the matter is you can have a game where you get some phantom/bad calls but over the course of an entire season you can't explain his high number of attempts on refereeing. It's like flipping a coin heads or tails, sure you can have ten heads in a row or some "fluke" in the short run, but the higher number of tosses the closer to 50% you'll get in the long run. Durant is clearly the second best player in the league behind Lebron and there is a smaller gap from Lebron to Durant than from Durant to whomever you rank third.

[QUOTE=fos]One thing that is being overlooked is that all things being even, Durant will still get more foul calls than any of the other superstars because he's a 90% shooter so he'll be the guy shooting ALL technical freethrows (not huge but noteworthy). He also is just better at drawing fouls than the other guys mentioned because of his freakish wingspan, it's simply not enough to put a hand up on his jumpshot like you would do with Lebron, Melo, or Kobe and since he's such a deadeye shooter and so quick for his size he gets fouled at a much higher rate when he puts the ball on the floor. The fact of the matter is you can have a game where you get some phantom/bad calls but over the course of an entire season you can't explain his high number of attempts on refereeing. It's like flipping a coin heads or tails, sure you can have ten heads in a row or some "fluke" in the short run, but the higher number of tosses the closer to 50% you'll get in the long run. Durant is clearly the second best player in the league behind Lebron and there is a smaller gap from Lebron to Durant than from Durant to whomever you rank third.[/QUOTE]

I brought up the techs and the fact that the Thunder are in the bonus more than any other team other than the Lakers...and that is probably solely due to the hack a howard. These points were mostly ignored.

What you say is exactly true. Over the course of the season...statistical anomalies even out. So it's either 1 of 2 things;

1. Durant does something to get to the line more often than some of the other players

2. There is a league wide ref conspiracy to send Durant to the line more often

Those are your only 2 options.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm saying it is either a conspiracy or he's doing something. When you have a sample this big with different refs..different games...different circumstances...all of it. And he's getting to the line like he is....it's not a fluke stat anomaly or something.

So all the refs either choose to give Durant phantom calls...or Durant/Harden do things to get the refs to make the calls you are talking about.

That is what I mean by not having it both ways. You can't say it's not a conspiracy type situation...and then say that Durant gets extra free throws each game on phantom calls that you know other players don't get. And then say Durant does nothing to get these calls...he just gets them. That implies a ref conspiracy to give Durant more free throws than other players.

And I asked you to think about it...and I guess you didn't.[/QUOTE]
Who am I to say there's a ref conspiracy? I have no knowledge of their staff meetings or discussions. I have no evidence to claim that I know what they do or don't do behind closed doors. All I can go by is what I see for myself. I can tell you what I see take place, but I can't speak to the motivations or reasons for it. I can tell you that I see Durant getting officiated unusually softly, but I can't speculate why.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Who am I to say there's a ref conspiracy? I have no knowledge of their staff meetings or discussions. I have no evidence to claim that I know what they do or don't do behind closed doors. All I can go by is what I see for myself. I can tell you what I see take place, but I can't speak to the motivations or reasons for it. I can tell you that I see Durant getting officiated unusually softly, but I can't speculate why.[/QUOTE]

And you think Durant has nothing to do with it though...so that means the refs ref Durant differently than other players for no reason.

How do you not see what I'm saying? Think about it. You have different refs, reffing different games, with different defenses and players, different scenarios...etc.

And Durant continues to shoot his free throw rate. So either the refs have chosen to give him softer calls...or he does something to warrant more trips to the line.

You watching the games is worth something, but it's also extremely limited because you don't watch every second of every game of Durant, Harden, Kobe, Melo, Lebron..etc.

So it's a limited analysis and prone to confirmation bias.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And you think Durant has nothing to do with it though...so that means the refs ref Durant differently than other players for no reason.

How do you not see what I'm saying? Think about it. You have different refs, reffing different games, with different defenses and players, different scenarios...etc.

And Durant continues to shoot his free throw rate. So either the refs have chosen to give him softer calls...or he does something to warrant more trips to the line.

You watching the games is worth something, but it's also extremely limited because you don't watch every second of every game of Durant, Harden, Kobe, Melo, Lebron..etc.

So it's a limited analysis and prone to confirmation bias.[/QUOTE]
Lemme ask you a straight question and give me a straight answer.

From what you've seen, does Durant get an unusual amou... Nope. Can't say "unusual" because you'll dance around what constitutes an "unusual amount".

Scratch that. From what you've seen, does Durant typically* get a NOTICEABLE amount of what you think would generally be considered "questionable" calls in his favor?

*Typically meaning, is it normal of when you personally watch him play that it's commonplace for him to get these calls. Not just once in a blue moon. It's a recurring thing.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Lemme ask you a straight question and give me a straight answer.

From what you've seen, does Durant get an unusual amou... Nope. Can't say "unusual" because you'll dance around what constitutes an "unusual amount".

Scratch that. From what you've seen, does Durant typically* get a NOTICEABLE amount of what you think would generally be considered "questionable" calls in his favor?

*Typically meaning, is it normal of when you personally watch him play that it's commonplace for him to get these calls. Not just once in a blue moon. It's a recurring thing.[/QUOTE]

This is not me dancing around it at all.

My answer is yes, but it would also be that way with Kobe and Harden. When I watch Kobe play...I feel like he gets a ton of phantom calls on long jumpers. Harden seems to me like he gets the whistle every time he drives.

Take Dirk...he gets hit all the time with no call compared to the above 3 guys. But Dirk is also much worse at selling the call and playing for fouls than the above 3 guys...at least he has been the last couple years.

This is why confirmation bias is so deadly...even if I grant you that Durant seems to get a lot of these when I watch...it would mean nothing more than the statement itself...and wouldn't mean that Durant isn't doing something to get those calls.

Again, guys like Durant and Harden are either doing something other players aren't....or the refs have a mandate to gift them free throws.

And by "doing something"...that encompasses everything. From style of play, to selling calls, to their physique...everything. It may be that Durant gets a huge benefit from his long arms and frail body...that still means he's doing something to warrant the calls because he's using those to his advantage.

But I think it's far more simple than that. Durant is a sharp shooter that happens to be near 7 feet that can also put the ball on the floor. He's such a good shooter that he runs off screens like Allen and Miller did. He's just a nightmare to guard with the ball and without the ball...because any space you give him...it's over. And then, to top it off, he has an ability to sell calls imo...and most others in this thread have agreed with that. And he plays on a team that is in the bonus more than pretty much every other team in the league. And he shoots all the techs.

So I think it's simple and easily explained logically.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]This is not me dancing around it at all.

My answer is yes, but it would also be that way with Kobe and Harden. When I watch Kobe play...I feel like he gets a ton of phantom calls on long jumpers. Harden seems to me like he gets the whistle every time he drives.

Take Dirk...he gets hit all the time with no call compared to the above 3 guys. But Dirk is also much worse at selling the call and playing for fouls than the above 3 guys...at least he has been the last couple years.

This is why confirmation bias is so deadly...even if I grant you that Durant seems to get a lot of these when I watch...it would mean nothing more than the statement itself...and wouldn't mean that Durant isn't doing something to get those calls.

Again, guys like Durant and Harden are either doing something other players aren't....or the refs have a mandate to gift them free throws.

And by "doing something"...that encompasses everything. From style of play, to selling calls, to their physique...everything. It may be that Durant gets a huge benefit from his long arms and frail body...that still means he's doing something to warrant the calls because he's using those to his advantage.

But I think it's far more simple than that. Durant is a sharp shooter that happens to be near 7 feet that can also put the ball on the floor. He's such a good shooter that he runs off screens like Allen and Miller did. He's just a nightmare to guard with the ball and without the ball...because any space you give him...it's over. And then, to top it off, he has an ability to sell calls imo...and most others in this thread have agreed with that. And he plays on a team that is in the bonus more than pretty much every other team in the league. And he shoots all the techs.

So I think it's simple and easily explained logically.[/QUOTE]
This might be where our difference on the matter might be. When I talk about KD getting phantom calls, I'm not usually talking about shooting fouls. Yes, other players like Harden are in the same boat.That's not my issue. My problem with Durant is with the non-shooting and the off-ball calls.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]This might be where our difference on the matter might be. When I talk about KD getting phantom calls, I'm not usually talking about shooting fouls. Yes, other players like Harden are in the same boat.That's not my issue. My problem with Durant is with the non-shooting and the off-ball calls.[/QUOTE]

I'm referencing everything. The reason Durant gets those is because he's so much better of a shooter than the other guys. So when he comes off a screen....guys have to play him way more physically. They have to grab and bump and hold...and with Durant's frail body and his ability to sell the call and the fact that he's actually being fouled more often in those situations...you get the results...logically.

Why can't we just give players credit. It's Durant's great shooting that causes what you are talking about. If defenders didn't do that to him...he'd just get a couple more great looks a game coming off screens.

Which is what I've been saying the whole time. Cut down on these foul calls and you'd just see him take a couple more good shots a game if he was defended how Kobe and Melo are.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm referencing everything. The reason Durant gets those is because he's so much better of a shooter than the other guys. So when he comes off a screen....guys have to play him way more physically. [B]They have to grab and bump and hold...and with Durant's frail body and his ability to sell the call and the fact that he's actually being fouled more often in those situations...you get the results...logically.[/B]

Why can't we just give players credit. It's Durant's great shooting that causes what you are talking about. If defenders didn't do that to him...he'd just get a couple more great looks a game coming off screens.

Which is what I've been saying the whole time. Cut down on these foul calls and you'd just see him take a couple more good shots a game if he was defended how Kobe and Melo are.[/QUOTE]
See, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when he literally doesn't touch another player AT ALL.

Ask anyone who watches/follows the thunder. This dude has been stumbling around all season. The guy trips over his own feet dribbles off his knee or just completely loses his handle for no apparent reason.

It's too often that he does this and the whistle is blown and on the replay it's clear that nobody even touched him. He just messed up.