[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I might just lock it right now to be a dick.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :lol
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[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I might just lock it right now to be a dick.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :lol
LeBron plays in a weak era hv no Quailty Big Man,ThUnders are the the worst Finals Team in NBA All timE:banana:
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Steve Nash has more MVPs than Isiah Thomas. That doesn't make him better. Heck Derrick Rose has more MVPs than Isiah. The MVP is not a great tool to rate players against each other for several reasons. For one, the voting rules have changed. The players themselves used to vote. Now the media does. Also the definition of what truly is the MVP has never been defined.
Michael Jordan should probably have 10 MVPs, but instead he only has 5. The voters change their opinions from year to year on who should get the award. Sometimes they like to crown a past champion, and sometimes they get fatigue and want to give it to a new guy.
On top of that, the competition is different from era to era. Dirk has an MVP, but he never competed with Magic, Bird, nor Michael to get it. It's just an awful awful awful way to try to judge players from different eras.[/QUOTE]
Its about context in which Lebron indeed was the best player in the game with or without MVP... and Lebron didnt have 1 MVP or 2 MVPs....... he had 4 MVPs..... 1... 2... 3... 4....
[QUOTE=pauk]Its about context in which Lebron indeed was the best player in the game with or without MVP... and Lebron didnt have 1 MVP or 2 MVPs....... he had 4 MVPs..... 1... 2... 3... 4....[/QUOTE]
How many mvps?
[QUOTE=pauk]Its about context in which Lebron indeed was the best player in the game with or without MVP... and Lebron didnt have 1 MVP or 2 MVPs....... he had 4 MVPs..... 1... 2... 3... 4....[/QUOTE]
LBJ hv no DPOY,never avg 40 ppg in any series :roll:
[QUOTE=KG215]I see you still haven't learned or gotten over your old ways, despite claiming many times you're not the same poster you use to be.[/QUOTE]
What did i do wrong? I placed all the NBA accolades, you may dismiss whichever you want.... but please if you cant be respectful, cultivated and give your 2 cents on this topic then please stay of my face, i really had enough of your attitude...
[QUOTE=pauk]What did i do wrong? I placed all the NBA accolades, you may dismiss whichever you want.... but please if you cant be respectful, cultivated and give your 2 cents on this topic then please stay of my face, i really had enough of your attitude...[/QUOTE]
Did you mention how many times he has choked or how he had to go to a team with 2 other superstars on to even sniff a ring.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Just depends on if you mean basketball or resume. Lebron has a better resume already than most legends. Hes gonna blow Hakeems away.
Id still rather have Hakeem on my team. All the rest is pretty whatever to me in situations like this where I have seen the entire career of both sides. Im not guessing like I am with some older players.
I know what Hakeem could do...and Lebron. Not taking Lebron. Its not like....5 levels apart. But its not something id have to look at the team first either.
Id take Hakeem every time. Too disruptive on defense with the right mix of skill and aggression on offense.
If Lebron more often played the way hes capable of id take him. Id take out to prove a point Lebron over Hakeem. I wouldnt take average Lebron though.[/QUOTE]
Sure I understand, especially in this weak Center era i think most would have a very tough time turning down Hakeem, even if the other choice was Jordan....
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I might just lock it right now to be a dick.[/QUOTE]
Can you talk about why "defensive impact" was part of your reason with Hakeem...but then said you wouldn't take him over Bird/Magic every time...but would over Lebron.
Seems like those don't go hand in hand.
[QUOTE=daj0264]Did you mention how many times he has choked or how he had to go to a team with 2 other superstars on to even sniff a ring.[/QUOTE]
Man... these April 2013 posters..
[QUOTE=pauk]Man... these April 2013 posters..[/QUOTE]
I know we're good but thanks for the compliment.
[QUOTE=pauk]What did i do wrong? I placed all the NBA accolades, you may dismiss whichever you want.... but please if you cant be respectful, cultivated and give your 2 cents on this topic then please stay off my face, i really had enough of your attitude...[/QUOTE]
Why, then, did you feel the need to include POTM, and something as subjective as best player? We've been over the POTM thing countless times before. Not only is it fairly meaningless, using it to do a side-by-side resume comparison of two players from different eras when the award wasn't the same makes zero sense.
And stay off your face? I apologize for that...I guess. You said you weren't going to be the same type of LeBron d***riding poster you used to be. You've posted it numerous times and even sent me some PM's about it awhile back. You relapsed big time with your 1,500 word essay over a a blocked shot if a damn All-Star game.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Can you talk about why "defensive impact" was part of your reason with Hakeem...but then said you wouldn't take him over Bird/Magic every time...but would over Lebron.
Seems like those don't go hand in hand.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily, he might just think that Bird and Magic were noticeably better than Lebron offensively. Or that those 2 along with Hakeem having consistently better performances in the playoffs makes a difference.
I don't care which side of the argument anyone's on, but those things could explain someone taking Hakeem over Lebron, but not Bird and Magic.
As I said, I have Hakeem over Lebron and it will probably remain that way unless Lebron gets even better than he is now, but don't think it's a big enough gap for picking either to be unreasonable. Actually, I'd probably take Hakeem over all 3, in large part due to his play at both ends.
Discussions involving Hakeem always tend to focus on just his title runs. Of course he was a flashy scorer and great defender, but look at how his teams performed:
48 wins, 1st round exit
51, finals
42 2nd round
46 1st round
45 1st
41 1st
52 1st
42 missed playoffs
55 2nd round
58 champions
47 champions
48 2nd round (swept)
57 WCF
41 1st round
31-19 1st
was a role player afterwards.
That looks considerably more like Kevin Garnett than Lebron James. 6 1st round exits as a #1 option, missed playoffs once. 4 out of 15 years WCF or better.
That's not necessarily a terrible resum
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Not necessarily, he might just think that Bird and Magic were noticeably better than Lebron offensively. Or that those 2 along with Hakeem having consistently better performances in the playoffs makes a difference.
I don't care which side of the argument anyone's on, but those things could explain someone taking Hakeem over Lebron, but not Bird and Magic.
As I said, I have Hakeem over Lebron and it will probably remain that way unless Lebron gets even better than he is now, but don't think it's a big enough gap for picking either to be unreasonable. Actually, I'd probably take Hakeem over all 3, in large part due to his play at both ends.[/QUOTE]
I'm fine, with any reasoning...as long as it stays consistent.
I just think you get into a very difficult area in taking Hakeem every time over Lebron...but not Bird/Magic. Reasons need to be given for that reasoning.
And defense and playoff performances (not saying those are the reasons given) are obviously not valid.
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Discussions involving Hakeem always tend to focus on just his title runs. Of course he was a flashy scorer and great defender, but look at how his teams performed:
48 wins, 1st round exit
51, finals
42 2nd round
46 1st round
45 1st
41 1st
52 1st
42 missed playoffs
55 2nd round
58 champions
47 champions
48 2nd round (swept)
57 WCF
41 1st round
31-19 1st
was a role player afterwards.
That looks considerably more like Kevin Garnett than Lebron James. 6 1st round exits as a #1 option, missed playoffs once. 4 out of 15 years WCF or better.
That's not necessarily a terrible resum
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It's hard with Hakeem, because in 94 and 95 he proved able to do stuff that very few NBA players in the history of the game have been able to do. Stuff that Lebron never did....now, that doesn't mean Hakeem wins just off that...as MJ never won with teams like that either...but it matters.
So it's hard to talk about all the playoff first round losses and such...when you have 94 and 95 right in front of you.[/QUOTE]
well it does matter if we're not talking about players' primes only.
When current players are concerned, we never omit their "dark years", i.e. KG and TMac not getting past the 1st round, Dirk's and LeBron's playoff "failures", Kobes early post-Shaq years. Because we have seen all those years.
Who here actually saw DRob, Ewing, Shaq and Hakeem pre 95?
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]well it does matter if we're not talking about players' primes only.
When current players are concerned, we never omit their "dark years", i.e. KG and TMac not getting past the 1st round, Dirk's and LeBron's playoff "failures", Kobes early post-Shaq years. Because we have seen all those years.
Who here actually saw DRob, Ewing, Shaq and Hakeem pre 95?[/QUOTE]
Well, the problem is that Hakeem never had a moment like Lebron in 11. Hakeem played on a lot of poor teams and average teams.
So while everything matters, maybe it was his teams holding him back most of the time.
Where in the case of Lebron in 11...it was his play. Huge difference in my opinion.
[QUOTE=KG215]Why, then, did you feel the need to include POTM, and something as subjective as best player? We've been over the POTM thing countless times before. Not only is it fairly meaningless, using it to do a side-by-side resume comparison of two players from different eras when the award wasn't the same makes zero sense.[/quote]
You dont feel the same way about All-Star MVP or anything else?
Here is what you missed about POTM which i said earlier:
"Having more POTM than somebody else in theory is kindof useless.... but should not be disregarded because this tells a very important story/context...
Because the POTM is the same criteria as MVP & given out by the same establishment, a player who had many more POTM is a player who has been the MVP of the month (which is not a very short time) many more times...... a player who has won the most POTM in a season usually ends up with the MVP aswell......... a player who has won the more POTMs for his career has therefore probably ended up with more MVPs aswell......
In Lebrons case this story is very correct....
...and if that player (Lebron) has many more MVPs that means that player has been a MORE VALUABLE PLAYER many more years & months than the player compared to (Hakeem)........ which hints at the probability of Lebron being a more impactful player than Hakeem was.... at least for a longer time.... for you to win the MVP your productiveness/individual talent/skill needs to translate to more TEAM SUCCESS/WINS than anybody else.....
MVP is a very important award.... and to get it you will need to unfortunately be POTM in that season many times, no matter how useless it is it still leads you towards the award which is not so useless."
[quote]
And stay off your face? I apologize for that...I guess. You said you weren't going to be the same type of LeBron d***riding poster you used to be.[/quote]
No, i said i was not gona clown/troll like i did long time ago.... but the so called Lebron "***riding" will remain as long as he plays the way he does, i love great basketball and especially when that player plays it the right way.... With that being said, i love Hakeem aswell...
I am sorry but i dont think its a crime to like Lebron or any other player.... as long as you are coherent, factual, logical and objective in your assumptions then its no problem whatsoever.....
After seeing so many posters here claiming "Its not even close between Lebron & Hakeem" i thought i would retaliate with this thread and discuss this.... in ISH you would usually be called a Lebron dickrider (feeling hit?), a Lebron stan, whatever even if you by just simple logic, objectivity and facts proved why that claim is not actually true......... like i did here...
I am absolutely getting tired of getting called a Lebron ***rider when the truth is i am actually talking to mostly Lebron haters (fans who are in denial and do/say anything to downplay him and overrated anybody who is compared).... look around...
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Discussions involving Hakeem always tend to focus on just his title runs. Of course he was a flashy scorer and great defender, but look at how his teams performed:
48 wins, 1st round exit
51, finals
42 2nd round
46 1st round
45 1st
41 1st
52 1st
42 missed playoffs
55 2nd round
58 champions
47 champions
48 2nd round (swept)
57 WCF
41 1st round
31-19 1st
was a role player afterwards.
That looks considerably more like Kevin Garnett than Lebron James. 6 1st round exits as a #1 option, missed playoffs once. 4 out of 15 years WCF or better.
That's not necessarily a terrible resum
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Hakeem was one of the most unfortunate top 10 type players as far as teammates go, and didn't always have championship-caliber coaches either.
Houston was supposed to contend for years with the twin towers, but Sampson declined rapidly with injuries starting in Hakeem's 3rd year and was traded midway through his 4th year.
Hakeem did raise his game in the playoffs as much as any all-time great I can think of though except for maybe Jordan.
'86 run was obviously remarkable, especially for a 2nd year player, but look at 1987, nearly willed his Rockets single-handedly to a game 7 vs Seattle with 49/25/6 in a double OT loss and I remember Ralph Sampson missing a free throw either late in regulation or the 1st OT that would have probably sealed the win. It's been a while since I've seen that game, but I also remember a non-call when a Sonic goaltended Hakeem's shot which would have given him a shot at a 3 point play, late, instead, he made both free throws.
Then in '88, he lost in the 1st round, but averaged 38/17 including a 41/26 game 2 and 40/15 in the elimination game. And this was vs a very talented Mavs team that took the champion Lakers to 7 in the WCF.
In '93, he lost in OT of game 7 of the WCSF to a stacked Sonic team with some bad calls most likely being the difference.
In '91, they won 52 games, but ran into the Lakers in the 1st round. They also played the Lakers in '90 during the first round, though I'll concede that Houston should have been better than 41-41. '92 team underachieved, partially due to chemistry since this was the period when all of the negatives were being brought up about Hakeem, but they were 40-30 with Hakeem and just 2-10 without him, so this says as much about how much he often carried Houston as anything.
Only time he played poorly in series he lost other than '99 when he was 36 were '90 and '96, and he was swarmed by multiple defenders in both series. Seattle was known for their trapping and double teaming, and there was a stat mentioned in the Laker series about how often Hakeem was doubled and it was astounding. He was a beast defensively in the Laker series as well, iirc and both those teams were undoubtedly better and more talented.
Hell, a lot of people thought the '96 Lakers would beat Houston in the 1st round since Magic had returned, Houston had struggled with a lot of injuries and the Lakers had HCA. Pretty much every key Rocket missed at least 10 games in '96. Hakeem missed 10 games, Drexler missed 30, Horry missed 11, Cassell missed 21, Mario Elie missed 37 and Kenny Smith missed 14.
Looking at Hakeem's actual performances throughout the years, I have a hard time faulting him for playoff losses. I'm fine with him being criticized for the '90 and '96 series, and he wasn't great in the '91 series either, though you'd have a hard time convincing me he should have beat Magic's Lakers or the Kemp/Payton/Schrempf Sonics.
How are they not valid?[/QUOTE]
Because Lebron plays infinitely better defense than both Bird/Magic.
And the playoff histories of Bird/Magic....especially Bird... are hardly without fault.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Just stuck out to me....
In some of those games he had:
23/10/5 7 blocks and 2 steals
32/17/ 9 blocks and 3 steals
24/11/8 blocks
28/13/7/5/4
18/17/ 5 blocks 4 steals
28/11/ 6 blocks
Hell he had 32/16/5/4/4 vs us when he was older.
I remember them playing the Rockets...hakeem did not just watch Jordan beat him. He usually beat Jordan when they were both top of their games in the early 90s.[/QUOTE]
Hey, when Jordan came back he imitated his game big time. But postseason, when all the chips are down... I kind of think that's different. While I love Hakeem's game, he wasn't the best center around, even then, and the two great centers were both spectators.
[QUOTE=pauk]You dont feel the same way about All-Star MVP or anything else?
Here is what you missed about POTM which i said earlier:
"Having more POTM than somebody else in theory is kindof useless.... but should not be disregarded because this tells a very important story/context...
Because the POTM is the same criteria as MVP & given out by the same establishment, a player who had many more POTM is a player who has been the MVP of the month (which is not a very short time) many more times...... a player who has won the most POTM in a season usually ends up with the MVP aswell......... a player who has won the more POTMs for his career has therefore probably ended up with more MVPs aswell......
In Lebrons case this story is very correct....
...[B]and if that player (Lebron) has many more MVPs that means that player has been a MORE VALUABLE PLAYER many more years & months than the player compared to (Hakeem)........ which hints at the probability of Lebron being a more impactful player than Hakeem was.... at least for a longer time....[/B] for you to win the MVP your productiveness/individual talent/skill needs to translate to more TEAM SUCCESS/WINS than anybody else.....
MVP is a very important award.... and to get it you will need to unfortunately be POTM in that season many times, no matter how useless it is it still leads you towards the award which is not so useless."
No, i said i was not gona clown/troll like i did long time ago.... but the so called Lebron "***riding" will remain as long as he plays the way he does, i love great basketball and especially when that player plays it the right way.... With that being said, i love Hakeem aswell...
I am sorry but i dont think its a crime to like Lebron or any other player.... as long as you are coherent, factual, logical and objective in your assumptions then its no problem whatsoever.....
After seeing so many posters here claiming "Its not even close between Lebron & Hakeem" i thought i would retaliate with this thread and discuss this.... in ISH you would usually be called a Lebron dickrider (feeling hit?), a Lebron stan, whatever even if you by just simple logic, objectivity and facts proved why that claim is not actually true......... like i did here...
I am absolutely getting tired of getting called a Lebron ***rider when the truth is i am actually talking to mostly Lebron haters (fans who are in denial and do/say anything to downplay him and overrated anybody who is compared).... look around...[/QUOTE]
Definitely not, that's a very flawed logic.
That's like saying that Duncan is not one of the best defenders ever because he doesn't have a DPOY.
MVPs are worthless, they're made for mass public, doesn't even have any official criteria, is chosen by a board of idiots that work at espn.
If you want anything with individual awards, FMVP is worth like five times more than a regular season mvp.
[QUOTE=Quintilianus]Definitely not, that's a very flawed logic.
That's like saying that Duncan is not one of the best defenders ever because he doesn't have a DPOY.
MVPs are worthless, they're made for mass public, doesn't even have any official criteria, is chosen by a board of idiots that work at espn.
If you want anything with individual awards, FMVP is worth like five times more than a regular season mvp.[/QUOTE]
MVP's are not worthless. They are not the end all be all, but it shows a player separating himself from his peers.
Lebron has done that an absurd amount already in his young career. He really might win 7 or more MVP's...which, not matter what you think, would be amazing...and does matter.
It's not the act of winning MVP...it's what the award represents and what a player has to do to get one. They aren't easy to get...
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Because Lebron plays infinitely better defense than both Bird/Magic.
And the playoff histories of Bird/Magic....especially Bird... are hardly without fault.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but it's an opinion whether that makes more of a difference than their offense.
Nobodies playoff histories are without fault, but both Bird and Magic have a better history in the playoffs than Lebron. Not only more rings, but despite some bad performances, none that are puzzling the way Lebron's 2011 finals or last 3 games vs Boston are, in addition to back to back years where he lost shooting 35-36% and averaging between 5-6 turnovers.
Right now, I'm sort of waiting to see how Lebron handles the playoffs because after his history, I still have to see him do really well again, even after a truly great playoff run and ring. As of now, he's a remarkable player, and as long as he sustains it in the playoffs, he'll rank really high for me.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]MVP's are not worthless. They are not the end all be all, but it shows a player separating himself from his peers.
Lebron has done that an absurd amount already in his young career. He really might win 7 or more MVP's...which, not matter what you think, would be amazing...and does matter.
It's not the act of winning MVP...it's what the award represents and what a player has to do to get one. They aren't easy to get...[/QUOTE]
This is his first MVP that he's kinda seperated from the league. And durant fell out of this mostly because OKC started blowing everybody out and he sat out quarter by quarter, it's not like he's infinitely better than Durant.
MVP caliber season is the same shit as MVP.
Nobody is celebrated for mvps besides lebron, I just don't get this, seems like espn and his fans are trying to turn everything that was traditional about basketball around.
[QUOTE=Quintilianus]This is his first MVP that he's kinda seperated from the league. And durant fell out of this mostly because OKC started blowing everybody out and he sat out quarter by quarter, it's not like he's infinitely better than Durant.
MVP caliber season is the same shit as MVP.
Nobody is celebrated for mvps besides lebron, I just don't get this, seems like espn and his fans are trying to turn everything that was traditional about basketball around.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
Bird is really underrated all-time as a defender. Dude could defend at an above average level, in his prime, before braking his back he probably was as good as lebron is now as a defender. Maybe not as versatile, but versatility isn't used so often to be a very major factor
This board likes stats, check out his defensive rating before he destroyed his back (hint: It's first number is 9)
[QUOTE=Quintilianus]This is his first MVP that he's kinda seperated from the league. And durant fell out of this mostly because OKC started blowing everybody out and he sat out quarter by quarter, it's not like he's infinitely better than Durant.
MVP caliber season is the same shit as MVP.
Nobody is celebrated for mvps besides lebron, I just don't get this, seems like espn and his fans are trying to turn everything that was traditional about basketball around.[/QUOTE]
What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.
However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.
And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL
I see the Lebron/Hakeem comparison like this:
If I had five fighters, say young clear headed Ali, and four drones and you have foggy headed Mike Tyson (make him equal in talent with Ali but more power up close and his upper body movement make his unhittable by ONE drone) who has a duplicated four drones. Ali is tied into his drones and can get them to go to spots where they are most effective. Ali can also adapt, change strategies, morph into his drones at any given time for a quick moment - making them faster and able to hit from further distances. They even work together to make a better defense than Mike's team. Mike Tyson has no connection with his drones but looks like the best fighter.
When you have the dimension of thinking, adaption, versatility, all skills, great team skills on both sides of the ball, being deadly on all parts of the court, got a connection with all teammates, its a different level than the I'm great around the basket game. Tho, Hakeem could pass it wasn't a team amp type of thing. I'm not even giving Hakeem the team defensive edge, much less the offense.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Yes, but it's an opinion whether that makes more of a difference than their offense.
Nobodies playoff histories are without fault, but both Bird and Magic have a better history in the playoffs than Lebron. Not only more rings, but despite some bad performances, none that are puzzling the way Lebron's 2011 finals or last 3 games vs Boston are, in addition to back to back years where he lost shooting 35-36% and averaging between 5-6 turnovers.
Right now, I'm sort of waiting to see how Lebron handles the playoffs because after his history, I still have to see him do really well again, even after a truly great playoff run and ring. As of now, he's a remarkable player, and as long as he sustains it in the playoffs, he'll rank really high for me.[/QUOTE]
Like I said...I just want consistency. I think it's a very weak argument to take Hakeem over Lebron and not Bird/Magic using playoff consistency...
But, of course, we have to see Lebron's career play out. He's got to win this year for sure to really get into this debate for real. A loss in the playoffs this year...combined with 10 and 11...and it will be just too much to overcome.
I've written about it in the past....one more black mark for Lebron in his prime and it's going to be hard for me to ever rank him above Duncan (who I have 6th all time)
[QUOTE=Quintilianus]If you want anything with individual awards, FMVP is worth like five times more than a regular season mvp.[/QUOTE]
Finals MVPs is a hugely flawed reward and only really tends to distort what actually happened. First, it only captures the finals, not the entire gruelling regular season schedule or the first three rounds of the post season. It (except in one exceptional case) rewards a player on the WINNING team, but there may have been an incredible player on the losing team that was actually the most valuable, but lost out to the better TEAM.
Parker won the Finals MVP in the 2007 Cavs sweep, but Duncan was the best player and the leader for them in the playoffs. Duncan will be known as winning 4 rings and 3 as the man, when in actual fact he won 4 as the man with Parker having one good series against the vastly inferior, unorganised and inexperienced Cavs.
Shaq's dominance in 00-02 is in history with his 3 finals MVPs, but apart from Kobe fanatics and people that have watched these series carefully, Kobe was apparently just a 'role player'. Bull, Kobe was an integral part in 2001 and 2002, almost as much so as Shaq. You get nonsense like 'Shaq carried Kobe to three titles' because people only look at finals MVPs.
Magic had that historic 42-15-7 game at center to close out the '80 finals, but everyone forgets that Kareem was the best player and leader of that team throughout the season and the playoffs. Magic averaged 18-9 in the playoffs, Kareem had 32-12. Magic had an incredible finals, and he'll be remembered as the MVP of those finals, but will anyone remember Kareem's dominant display of 33-14 in 5 games in the finals? Or will they just remember that Kareem won 6 rings with 'only' 2 as the man.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.
However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.
And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL[/QUOTE]
and Durant doesn't get much attention oddly.
Lately people have talked more about Melo.
[QUOTE=All Net]and Durant doesn't get much attention oddly.
Lately people have talked more about Melo.[/QUOTE]
Small market....Duncan syndrome. If you transported the OKC team to NYC...it would be different.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.
However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.
And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but he's not that better than durant as everybody is making out to be. I'd say it's like 5 percent difference between them, if lebron is 100, than Durant is 95, all he needs is to grow a pair of real balls, not the fake ones he's trying to demonstrate in this season. But maybe i'm too quick to judge, maybe he'll prove me wrong in the playoffs and play like a real man should.
Unanimous as in none of those great espn minds are going to vote for anybody else? Wow, now that's an achievement for ages, i'm going to tell my kids about it for sure... :facepalm
This is just ridiculous, MJ would've been considered by a wide majority the best even without his 5 mvps, Kareem's legacy wouldn't have been hurt either, i'm not even gonna mention other players, because I would be required to bring in context, and that's the thing that LeBron fans hate like a sparkly twilight vampire hates the sun
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.
However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.
And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL[/QUOTE]
You don't really "win" MVPs, you just play at a certain level and then hope for the most votes. Whether they matter or not is up to the individual. Personally, I don't see why a subjective award would matter.
As far as being unanimous, it's possible, but I don't know, we've seen some people get close, but if Shaq missed by 1 vote in 2000, then it's certainly no guarantee.
[QUOTE=All Net]and Durant doesn't get much attention oddly.
Lately people have talked more about Melo.[/QUOTE]
That's because Melo just went on a ridiculous hot streak while Durant has been playing closer to his usual level, which is great, but not difficult to see why Melo gets more attention lately.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Like I said...I just want consistency. I think it's a very weak argument to take Hakeem over Lebron and not Bird/Magic using playoff consistency...
But, of course, we have to see Lebron's career play out. He's got to win this year for sure to really get into this debate for real. A loss in the playoffs this year...combined with 10 and 11...and it will be just too much to overcome.
I've written about it in the past....one more black mark for Lebron in his prime and it's going to be hard for me to ever rank him above Duncan (who I have 6th all time)[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree with much here except the first part. I don't think that logic lacks consistency at all considering Magic and Bird don't have the black marks to the extent Lebron does, and I think the last part of your post is a good example of why this matters. I agree that with one more of those, it will affect where I rank him. But because of that, he has to prove to me that he really has gotten past that with another great run. If he does that, then I can just look at him as a player more, and that may get him into my second tier with Hakeem, Shaq and Bird. My first tier is currently Jordan, Russell and Kareem, and I couldn't see myself ever putting Lebron right on their level.
Only numbers that matter
LeBron 1 Hakeem 2
[QUOTE=crisoner]Only numbers that matter
LeBron 1 Hakeem 2[/QUOTE]
Can't just be about rings..
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]You don't really "win" MVPs, you just play at a certain level and then hope for the most votes. Whether they matter or not is up to the individual. Personally, I don't see why a subjective award would matter.
As far as being unanimous, it's possible, but I don't know, we've seen some people get close, but if Shaq missed by 1 vote in 2000, then it's certainly no guarantee.
That's because Melo just went on a ridiculous hot streak while Durant has been playing closer to his usual level, which is great, but not difficult to see why Melo gets more attention lately.
I don't disagree with much here except the first part. I don't think that logic lacks consistency at all considering Magic and Bird don't have the black marks to the extent Lebron does, and I think the last part of your post is a good example of why this matters. I agree that with one more of those, it will affect where I rank him. But because of that, he has to prove to me that he really has gotten past that with another great run. If he does that, then I can just look at him as a player more, and that may get him into my second tier with Hakeem, Shaq and Bird. My first tier is currently Jordan, Russell and Kareem, and I couldn't see myself ever putting Lebron right on their level.[/QUOTE]
The subjective award matters because it is about what it represents. This is not to say that it means the best player always wins, but to win...you have to do some special things...and it does validate a certain level of player. It's a reflection of a certain level of play and team success....and absolutely should matter.
Magic and Lebron also never played in the difficult situations Lebron did....and again, they had their failings...especially Bird. Losing plenty of big games and series.
I'm fine with holding 11 over Lebron. Totally agree with it. But I still don't see, at this point, the makings of a strong argument that playoff consistency is hugely in favor of Magic or Bird.
Lebron would win the MVP by a mile no matter who voted.
The same questionable shit happened when the players voted. Wes Unseld won MVP over Wilt/Reed...while being factually worse....due to a team turnaround when he wasnt his teams best player. Reported to the playoffs to get swiftly swept and outplayed by Reed. hes not even an all star the following year.
Not hating on Wes...just saying. The players get swept up in the same hype the media does. The old US basketball writers MVP had the exact same results as the players every year but one...when they gave it to Wilt not Oscar. The sporting News MVP was the same as the player voted MVP all but 2 years from the 50s to the 80s...once they gave it to Nate Archibald(Led the league in scoring and assists) instead of Dave Cowens. neither gave it to Kareem...who did 30/16/5 on a 60 win team. The other year they had it different was giving it to Bernard King instead of Bird and Bernard was second in the NBA vote.
It would be the same no matter who votes damn near ever year.