Explain to me why Rose didn't deserve the 2011 MVP

[QUOTE=Owl]10-12 wins difference from an MVP player? Really?

Just take the rookie arrival of Chamberlain, Baylor, Robertson, Robinson, Jabbar, Bird, Duncan (slight cheat here with Robinson returning from injury).

Look at the drop off after the retirement of Magic, Robertson, Jordan ('98).

Look at what every metric estimates. The "strong" MVPs (i.e. those who actually are the best player, not best player on good/surprising team or "we're tiding of giving it to X so why not give it to ...") e.g. LeBron 2010 (his weakest MVP year stats wise) Hollinger EWA gives him 30.5 on the loose end, Win Shares gives him 18.5 on the mean end of the spectrum, Pelton WARP gave him 25.4 wins above that which a replacement level player would give).

The dropoffs cited are after trades in which whilst certainly not recieving equal value teams got multiple pieces, some quality ones. In Robertson's case they lost 3 more games but had Norm Van Lier and Tiny Archibald instead at the pg spot.

The non trade ones are Barry (not an MVP), and Jordan which is an odd one. A combination of the arrival of Kukoc, growth of Pippen (and Pippen being fresh after a significant down year following the Olympics), Horace Grant playing for a contract, an amazing coach doing a great job and the Bulls not really being as good as their record (their MoV accounting for their schedule should have won them 50 games).

Anyhow if you don't mind MVP being a good player on a good team/surprising team, or player who has high contextual value (rubbish backup, nobody else provides their specific skill or whatever) then Rose, like Unseld, Iverson, Cowens et al, is fine.

Personally I don't like it when it doesn't go to the best player, especially when the idea that they'd trade players (straight up, not looking long term or at injuries) before, during and after the season are all laughable.

Rose was a very good player that year. He just wasn't at the level I associate with MVP or playing as well James, Wade, Howard our Paul.


I'd agree with what DMavs posted. But come on. Not Jennings. Paul and they'd be better, Westbrook maybe just as good shot creating pgs and they'd get most of the value they got from Rose. But they wouldn't lose nothing by putting in a middling pg like Jennings was (and to a degree still is).[/QUOTE]
I think you misunderstand. I don't mean Jennings from 2011. I mean current brandon Jennings. Current Jennings is no worse than 2011 rose.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]I think you misunderstand. I don't mean Jennings from 2011. I mean current brandon Jennings. Current Jennings is no worse than 2011 rose.[/QUOTE]
I did misinterpret. Come on though. Even current Jennings. "No worse than Rose"? Really?

[QUOTE=Owl]I did misinterpret. Come on though. Even current Jennings. "No worse than Rose"? Really?[/QUOTE]
What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?

Put current Jennings on that stacked bulls roster with elite defense, elite rebounding, elite team passing, COTY, ETC... You honestly don't think he could manage to shoot 44% and dish out 7.7 assists?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]D12 was suppose to hold a rookie center - that was made very [B]very[/B] [SIZE="4"]very [/SIZE]clear. Rose guarded a much more talented group of offensive minded guards than DH guarded centers - where not one center was polished offensively. And when he does get one, a rookie at that, he doesn't have the leadership to say I got this. Rose fully respected Thibes but it wasn't going to go down like that.

Aren't you the guy that said Rose was the 8th best defensive player on the team??? Rose was the best backcourt defender on the team. The team was top three in perimeter defense. No elite opposing PG came off on Chicago the whole year. It doesn't get anymore thorough than that. I know I can't think of any SG much less a PG that held a healthy Wade like Rose did. So to say Rose wasn't a key part of their defense is major crap. Third leading PG in rebounds too. Which is higher than Noah and Boozer at their positions. Rose was definitely first or second among PG in blocks as well. Nobody else on the team was ranked among the top in their position. Name me somebody else at their position that held down the elite like Rose did at PG that year? DH didn't even take the assignment.

[B]Please refute what I am saying[/B].[/QUOTE]


Well that will be easy enough.

DRose was a TERRIBLE defender for the Bulls in his MVP season. My ANY metric. Lets look at the most popular ones:

DRTG (my least favorite def metric). Rose was not only not in the top 8 defenders on the team he was next to last in DRTG on the team (of anyone that played 30min+ for the season). Only Kyle Korver (who was sent packing despite his league best shooting because of his porous defense) ranked worse.

On/Off (Far better). With the league "MVP" on the floor the Bulls allowed 103.0 points/48 min. With DRose on the bench the Bulls stiffened to 95.3. That is an ENORMOUS chasm.

RAPM (Best). DRose's offense by this metric was VERY good and among the top 9 in the league. However, his defense dropped him all the way to #32 in the league. This is nowhere near any MVP since RAPM figures are available. At least Nash was at least the #1 RAPM OFF player when he was winning his MVPs (his D was terrible too). The difference, for example, between Deng's RAPM defense and DRose's is literally more than the complete benefit of Kobe Bryant PLUS David West added to a team.

The last argument that keeps getting made is that Rose did more with less. Its makes no sense. They had Asik, the best rebounder in the NBA playing 15mpg because they were so stacked. In fact, in the ~19 games worth of court time without Rose on the floor the Bulls played to +5.1pts/48 of their opponents. Extrapolated to a full season that would make them ~5th best team in the NBA. Meanwhile, with LeBron off the floor the Heat were actually OUTSCORED.

And you have no basic comprehension of HOW D12's defensive effectiveness works. I wouldn't speak to it any more.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?

Put current Jennings on that stacked bulls roster with elite defense, elite rebounding, elite team passing, COTY, ETC... You honestly don't think he could manage to shoot 44% and dish out 7.7 assists?[/QUOTE]
The thing is I've established I agree with a lot of their percieved overachievement comes from the things mentioned (elite D, Thibs).

But what does Jennings do better? Shoot 3s. Numerically you could argue turn the ball over less though when you account for usage they're near enough the same.

What does he do worse? Shoot 2 pointers, finish at the rim, draw fouls, shoot free throws (all of which make Rose an efficient scorer, Jennings merely an okayish one). Volume of scoring (this is big and when combined with efficiency very big). Pass. Avoid fouls. Rebound. Defend.

Even where the advantages are little ones, they all add up.

Whatever you think of his MVP, Rose was a top 10 player. Jennings probably isn't a top 50 one.

cf: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jennibr01&y1=2013&p2=rosede01&y2=2011[/url]

[QUOTE=NumberSix]What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?
[/QUOTE]

I would probably that Jennings is one of the 3 worst PGs in the NBA (that aren't developing on rookie deals).

Just stop this. You ruin any credibility my side, the correct side, has.

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid][B]I would probably that Jennings is one of the 3 worst PGs in the NBA[/B] (that aren't developing on rookie deals).

Just stop this. You ruin any credibility my side, the correct side, has.[/QUOTE]
Starting?

[QUOTE=Owl]Starting?[/QUOTE]

Yes. I swear I put that word in there.

MVP, value is in the damn name. There is no way that Derrick Rose contributes more value towards a team winning basketball games than LBJ does. All you have to do is watch basketball to know that. He's a better scorer, defender and playmaker than Rose. He gives you similar assists as a damn SF.

Its as simple as this. The Bulls are not worse with Lebron on their team instead of Rose and the Bulls are not worse with Lebron instead of Rose, position be damned.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?

Put current Jennings on that stacked bulls roster with elite defense, elite rebounding, elite team passing, COTY, ETC... You honestly don't think he could manage to shoot 44% and dish out 7.7 assists?[/QUOTE]

This is some high quality trolling right here.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I gather you just learned how to read anyway. One day when you grow up you will know how to present your thoughts. Please refute something or the BS that fills you will pile up.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you understand that typing long paragraphs doesn't make what you have to say any more legitimate. Length =/= legitimacy. I can see that you're biased towards Rose, that's fine, but you don't need to make overzealous attempts to discredit Dwight. You should be able to prove Roses legitimacy with his play, you shouldn't have to criticize others his play should do the talking.

Jennings isn't even better than Kyle Lowry.

Lowry > Rose too ? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Mike Lowry > Rose too ? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Yes:bowdown:

[QUOTE=KyrieTheFuture]I don't think you understand that typing long paragraphs doesn't make what you have to say any more legitimate. Length =/= legitimacy. I can see that you're biased towards Rose, that's fine, but you don't need to make overzealous attempts to discredit Dwight. You should be able to prove Roses legitimacy with his play, you shouldn't have to criticize others his play should do the talking.[/QUOTE]

The paragraph was a descriptor of DH's shortcomings, which is relevant to the discussion. If the paragraph is long, then you have more opportunities to prove me wrong. That's fair. Its overzealous when proven to be something it isn't. I invite all to take it apart. Until then its long and strong.

The Rose haters aren't new as who was one of the best PG rebounders, block shot PG's, the only player top ten in assist and ppg, who was the best penetrator in the league, who was the top scorer in close games in the fourth quarter, whose team overachieved, whose team had a lot of things to overcome and still had the most wins, whose team dominated the elite, whose team had one creative player, which elite team had one player that carried the offensive burden moreso than the other teams, who consistently held the elite at his position below par, the one star in the league that came to play every game without taking off, the only player on an elite team that didn't have a top notch player in some category. So they create theories that ignore all of that.

Who is being overzealous?

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]Well that will be easy enough.

DRose was a TERRIBLE defender for the Bulls in his MVP season. My ANY metric. Lets look at the most popular ones:

DRTG (my least favorite def metric). Rose was not only not in the top 8 defenders on the team he was next to last in DRTG on the team (of anyone that played 30min+ for the season). Only Kyle Korver (who was sent packing despite his league best shooting because of his porous defense) ranked worse.

On/Off (Far better). With the league "MVP" on the floor the Bulls allowed 103.0 points/48 min. With DRose on the bench the Bulls stiffened to 95.3. That is an ENORMOUS chasm.

RAPM (Best). DRose's offense by this metric was VERY good and among the top 9 in the league. However, his defense dropped him all the way to #32 in the league. This is nowhere near any MVP since RAPM figures are available. At least Nash was at least the #1 RAPM OFF player when he was winning his MVPs (his D was terrible too). The difference, for example, between Deng's RAPM defense and DRose's is literally more than the complete benefit of Kobe Bryant PLUS David West added to a team.

The last argument that keeps getting made is that Rose did more with less. Its makes no sense. They had Asik, the best rebounder in the NBA playing 15mpg because they were so stacked. In fact, in the ~19 games worth of court time without Rose on the floor the Bulls played to +5.1pts/48 of their opponents. Extrapolated to a full season that would make them ~5th best team in the NBA. Meanwhile, with LeBron off the floor the Heat were actually OUTSCORED.

And you have no basic comprehension of HOW D12's defensive effectiveness works. I wouldn't speak to it any more.[/QUOTE]

WOW, you really don't know how things work.

A. Rose is the teams main offensive player. When he is not on the floor, the team has to shut down the other team to compete. Its absolutely critical. Because Rose was depended upon more so for creativity than any other superstar for their teams (Dirk, DH, Wade, Lebron, Kobe). This is a huge argument for Rose as MVP as well.

B. But to suggest that the Bulls second team was better defensively is to miss and incredibly humongous [B]METRIC[/B]. They are defending second teamers and not first teamers! Rose shutting down Rondo, Dwill, Nash, Jennings, Tyreke, Parker, CP3 and we are comparing that to CJ Watkins holding down bench players is not only absurd, it misses common sense at the most obvious levels.

C. You also miss the fact that Thibes put Rose on Wade in the playoffs in the fourth quarter above all other guards. Please show me the metric that shows a SG that held a healthy Wade down in the playoffs like Rose did. Here is a team that has two players at SG whose main function is defense but Thibes, a defensive genuis, takes Rose off of his natural position to guard Wade.

D. You think Chicago was a top perimeter defensive team because of it's bench play of 14 minutes a game?

E. Stats just ain't were its at. Something is very, very wrong with the metric.

[QUOTE=Owl]
Rose was a very good player that year. He just wasn't at the level I associate with MVP or playing as well James, Wade, Howard our Paul.

I'd agree with what DMavs posted. But come on. Not Jennings. Paul and they'd be better, Westbrook maybe just as good shot creating pgs and they'd get most of the value they got from Rose. But they wouldn't lose nothing by putting in a middling pg like Jennings was (and to a degree still is).[/QUOTE]
How does Paul fit in the MVP mix in 2011???

Paul had a better team last year than Rose had in 2011 and he was way better than he was in 2011. That Clipper team is way more skilled, more of a veteran team, way more athletic, way more creative, better shooters, better players off of the dribble, less injuries, more consistency, more scoring options... .

No way does Rose play on OKC or the Clippers last year and they don't have the best record in the league. I think a lot of people don't understand how his insistent play and leadership was key to why super teams (James/Wade), veteran teams, healthy teams, long time together teams didn't have a better record than a young team, with a new coach, new system, new system that was very reliant on Rose taking over the offense, injuries and other hurdles had the best record.

On a day to day basis Rose came to play every day the team accomplished more than much more fortunate players, and Rose had more on his plate than anybody as well. DH was close.

My argument is that you don't give it to someone in their first elite year. It's a damn shame that Rose has as many MVPs as Shaq, Kobe, etc. maybe he will turn out as good as them and maybe not, but hes got a long way to go. The list of MVPs is pretty freaking elite and minus Rose and Nash winning two.

[QUOTE=pmj][B]My argument is that you don't give it to someone in their first elite year. [/B]It's a damn shame that Rose has as many MVPs as Shaq, Kobe, etc. maybe he will turn out as good as them and maybe not, but hes got a long way to go. The list of MVPs is pretty freaking elite and minus Rose and Nash winning two.[/QUOTE]
I can't ride with that. If a player was the best player that year, I don't care how many years he's been in the league.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]The paragraph was a descriptor of DH's shortcomings, which is relevant to the discussion. If the paragraph is long, then you have more opportunities to prove me wrong. That's fair. Its overzealous when proven to be something it isn't. I invite all to take it apart. Until then its long and strong.

The Rose haters aren't new as who was [B]one of the best PG rebounders, block shot PG's, the only player top ten in assist and ppg, who was the best penetrator in the league[/B], who was the top scorer in close games in the fourth quarter, [B]whose team overachieved, whose team had a lot of things to overcome[/B] and still had the most wins, [B]whose team dominated the elite, whose team had one creative player, which elite team had one player that carried the offensive burden moreso than the other teams, who consistently held the elite at his position below par[/B], the one star in the league that came to play every game without taking off, the only player on an elite team that didn't have a top notch player in some category. So they create theories that ignore all of that.

Who is being overzealous?[/QUOTE]

Idk how you dont think you're being overenthusiastic in this thread.

Some of the bolded is irrelevant to the MVP it only makes him the best PG. The rest has to do with his team, specifically it's great D that Rose wasn't exactly a part of. All I'm saying is Dwight didn't have the benefit of great team D, he was the defense. Also, he was double or triple teamed all the time no matter what and he still dominated. I just think the MVP should include both sides of the court.

Edit: If it makes a difference, I think the gap between them is negligible and that he's a strong number two candidate with no else really close

[QUOTE=Pointguard]How does Paul fit in the MVP mix in 2011???

Paul had a better team last year than Rose had in 2011 and he was way better than he was in 2011. That Clipper team is way more skilled, more of a veteran team, way more athletic, way more creative, better shooters, better players off of the dribble, less injuries, more consistency, more scoring options... .

No way does Rose play on OKC or the Clippers last year and they don't have the best record in the league. I think a lot of people don't understand how his insistent play and leadership was key to why super teams (James/Wade), veteran teams, healthy teams, long time together teams didn't have a better record than a young team, with a new coach, new system, new system that was very reliant on Rose taking over the offense, injuries and other hurdles had the best record.

On a day to day basis Rose came to play every day the team accomplished more than much more fortunate players, and Rose had more on his plate than anybody as well. DH was close.[/QUOTE]
1) Where is it said Paul should be MVP? Nowhere, only that he was better than Rose.

2) Why switch years for Paul its irrelevent? You do it so you can frame the Clippers as a superteam using hearsay and vague, unproven or irrelvent statements (Clippers were "more athletic" but their superathletic bigs can't defend and DeAndre's court IQ is so low that his athleticism is largely wasted). The comparison of supporting casts is vague and imprecise but if you want to do it at least compare it for that year. Paul dragged 70 games of David West, 72 of Okafor and whole bag of nothing into the playoffs.
Or we could do it more precisely. And even those metrics which favour usage (PER) suggest Paul was better. And most metrics can't factor in Paul's edge at the defensive end.

3) You're framing Thibideau as a negative for Rose? This terrible "new coach" forcing his "new system" on him. Poor Derrick Rose.

4) If you want to credit the Bull's wins to "insistent play and leadership" fine. I'll go with their having the league's best defense.

As before if you're criteria for MVP isn't being the league's best player I don't mind it going to Rose. To me, because he wasn't the best player, he wasn't MVP.

He deserved it that year, happened to be the best player in his team which had the best record... he was my pick for MVP, but i just think he got perhaps a bit to much credit for what was happening with the Bulls that year, he played a big part but the key to their success was defense, they won mostly because of their defense (and they still do) and Rose didnt have much to do at that end of the court...

[QUOTE=pauk]He deserved it that year, happened to be the best player in his team which had the best record... he was my pick for MVP, but i just think he got perhaps a bit to much credit for what was happening with the Bulls that year, he played a big part but the key to their success was defense, they won mostly because of their defense (and they still do) and Rose didnt have much to do at that end of the court...[/QUOTE]

point guards have the least role on team defense. individual defense, rose is pretty good.
the bulls are not really "winning" without rose. sure they are above average team, they have above average players and above average coach, but they are not even contenders to make it to the ecf without rose. i dont consider that "winning". even look at these stats on how derrick rose transforms the team.

the bulls records against the top 8 teams in the league for 3 seasons one with a healthy rose, one with a semi healthy rose, and one with no rose.

2010-2011 (healthy rose)
14-7

2011-2012 (semi healthy rose)
9-6


2012-2013 (no rose , havent been updated for a few games)
5-12

[QUOTE=KyrieTheFuture]Idk how you dont think you're being overenthusiastic in this thread.

Some of the bolded is irrelevant to the MVP it only makes him the best PG. The rest has to do with his team, specifically it's great D that Rose wasn't exactly a part of. All I'm saying is Dwight didn't have the benefit of great team D, he was the defense. Also, he was double or triple teamed all the time no matter what and he still dominated. I just think the MVP should include both sides of the court.

Edit: If it makes a difference, I think the gap between them is negligible and that he's a strong number two candidate with no else really close[/QUOTE]
Dwight had a team that stayed within 2 games of first place til march. He had a team built around him. Then the Lebron reality happened, and management correctly figured this team didn't have enough guts. It was reflective of their leader and DH has had severe leadership issues for the last three years.

When I talk about Rose accomplishments above and his defensive impact you are acting like you don't get it. One of the best perimeter defenses, him being the best back court defender on the team, him shutting down Wade, top shot blocker among guards, him shutting down the elite at his position the whole year! The whole Rose lacked defense thing was crap.

If I do a short post you would never understand.

[QUOTE=Owl]1) Where is it said Paul should be MVP? Nowhere, only that he was better than Rose. [/quote]

In 2011? In what imaginable way?
[quote]

2) Why switch years for Paul its irrelevent? You do it so you can frame the Clippers as a superteam using hearsay and vague, unproven or irrelvent statements (Clippers were "more athletic" but their superathletic bigs can't defend and DeAndre's court IQ is so low that his athleticism is largely wasted). The comparison of supporting casts is vague and imprecise but if you want to do it at least compare it for that year. Paul dragged 70 games of David West, 72 of Okafor and whole bag of nothing into the playoffs.
Or we could do it more precisely. And even those metrics which favour usage (PER) suggest Paul was better. And most metrics can't factor in Paul's edge at the defensive end. [/quote]
Before cp's arrival Dj was considered a top center prospect with great instincts. BG was considered the top prospect at power forward period. Last year was a catastrophe. I never heard anything about DJs IQ being low before last year.

[quote]

3) You're framing Thibideau as a negative for Rose? This terrible "new coach" forcing his "new system" on him. Poor Derrick Rose.[/quote]
Please see what new system did for Lebron, Wade, Kobe, DH, Nash, Paul, Mello and then you might understand what I'm saying.
[quote]

4) If you want to credit the Bull's wins to "insistent play and leadership" fine. I'll go with their having the league's best defense. [/quote]
Miami and the Bucks had great defenses that year. Miami also had two great offensive players that year...

[QUOTE=poido123]Then question the award system, not the player who was awarded MVP.[/QUOTE]

why do you even debate this guy? hes an idiot.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]WOW, you really don't know how things work.

A. Rose is the teams main offensive player. When he is not on the floor, the team has to shut down the other team to compete. Its absolutely critical. Because Rose was depended upon more so for creativity than any other superstar for their teams (Dirk, DH, Wade, Lebron, Kobe). This is a huge argument for Rose as MVP as well.

B. But to suggest that the Bulls second team was better defensively is to miss and incredibly humongous [B]METRIC[/B]. They are defending second teamers and not first teamers! Rose shutting down Rondo, Dwill, Nash, Jennings, Tyreke, Parker, CP3 and we are comparing that to CJ Watkins holding down bench players is not only absurd, it misses common sense at the most obvious levels.

C. You also miss the fact that Thibes put Rose on Wade in the playoffs in the fourth quarter above all other guards. Please show me the metric that shows a SG that held a healthy Wade down in the playoffs like Rose did. Here is a team that has two players at SG whose main function is defense but Thibes, a defensive genuis, takes Rose off of his natural position to guard Wade.

D. You think Chicago was a top perimeter defensive team because of it's bench play of 14 minutes a game?

E. Stats just ain't were its at. Something is very, very wrong with the metric.[/QUOTE]

I am embarrassed to have crafted such a time consuming response to a 7th graders post.

[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]
2012-2013 (no rose , havent been updated for a few games)
5-12[/QUOTE]

Hasn't been updated indeed. They were a second round team after a mountain of injuries, going well beyond DRose's

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]I am embarrassed to have crafted such a time consuming response to a 7th graders post.[/QUOTE]
Ugh you quoted my post.

You erroneously used a metric to measure the teams defense when Rose sat down and CJ Watkins came in. Nothing wrong with the metric: you just made a very big oversight. Holding Rondo to five points in 38 minutes is much more impressive than holding John Doe to no points in 12 no matter how you slice it. If it takes a 7th grader or Buddha to tell you it doesn't matter. You didn't fool anybody. You made a mistake, we all do it.

Lebrons award. Derrick Rose shouldn't even finished in top 5.:oldlol:

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]Hasn't been updated indeed. They were a second round team after a mountain of injuries, going well beyond DRose's[/QUOTE]

actually, there were only like 3 more games after that and i think it was 2-1 so it would have been 7-13. which is still ridiculous compared to 14-7 with rose. so "indeed", rose makes the bulls a contender and without rose they are not winning anything.

[QUOTE=Dionysus]Lebrons award. Derrick Rose shouldn't even finished in top 5.:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

nobody has answered me yet, how do you win an mvp when your team has a losing record against elite teams.:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]nobody has answered me yet, how do you win an mvp when your team has a losing record against elite teams.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

LeBron superior numbers vs Rose low iq numbers

LeBron was the best player, the better player, the superior. LeBron also was the sole reason the Heat was good. Also who led the league in Win Shares? Yup you guessed it, LeBron King James.

[QUOTE=Dionysus]LeBron superior numbers vs Rose low iq numbers

LeBron was the best player, the better player, the superior. LeBron also was the sole reason the Heat was good. Also who led the league in Win Shares? Yup you guessed it, LeBron King James.[/QUOTE]

superior numbers like rose winning 14-7 against the top 8 teams in the league and lebron winning 7-11. rose even won there last 12 straight. while lebron lost most of the last 9. yea reread that.

rose even scoring more with 28 points. i dont even take you idiots seriously anymore. i mean your clearly not even here to discuss basketball when you start off your statement "roses low iq basketball"

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3483640/lebron-passes-again-o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3483635/derrick-rose-sixers-o.gif[/IMG]
but but lebron is more efficient because haslem has a greater chance to make that shot than he would.

It's hilarious when people use team stats to prop up one player. ****ing idiots.

[QUOTE=KyrieTheFuture]It's hilarious when people use team stats to prop up one player. ****ing idiots.[/QUOTE]

i understand why you would think so when you are a kyrie fan:roll:

[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]superior numbers like rose winning 14-7 against the top 8 teams in the league and lebron winning 7-11. rose even won there last 12 straight. while lebron lost most of the last 9. yea reread that.

rose even scoring more with 28 points. i dont even take you idiots seriously anymore. i mean your clearly not even here to discuss basketball when you start off your statement "roses low iq basketball"

[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3483640/lebron-passes-again-o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3483635/derrick-rose-sixers-o.gif[/IMG]
but but lebron is more efficient because haslem has a greater chance to make that shot than he would.[/QUOTE]
This phaggit still has nothing but what the teams did, not the players. :roll:

Rose didn't go 14-7 fcuk face, the bulls did.

Rose dropping 39 points , shitting all over the Magic at the end of the season :applause:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPfoaloEzQ[/url]

week before that he dropped 36 on the Raptors, including some sick blocks.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcUnnz5k6SE[/url]

30+ on the 76ers, Bucks, and Hawks around the same time. 42 points on the Pacers in a loss.

Dude had a great season. His defense has been denigrated so much in this thread, I'd say it's actually becoming underrated. Not to mention being the only player who finished top-10 in both points and assists. Scored a solid 25% of his teams total regular season points and dished 34% of his teams total assists.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]This phaggit still has nothing but what the teams did, not the players. :roll:

Rose didn't go 14-7 fcuk face, the bulls did.[/QUOTE]

so the bulls without d rose went 7-13. :roll: rose did score 28 points and 7 assists.:roll:

12 straight as the leader. lebron was losing as the leader, but he earned it over rose? keep trying.

btw, d rose scored more clutch points than lebron, with only being assisted 12% of the time, and lebron being assisted twice as much. rose dished out alot more clutch assists than lebron did, and had a better winning percentage in the end. deal with it.

btw, just stop talking if you think brandon jennings is as good as rose. im surprised the "dumbest things said on ish" hasnt been bumped yet when you stated that.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Rose dropping 39 points , shitting all over the Magic at the end of the season :applause:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPfoaloEzQ[/url]

week before that he dropped 36 on the Raptors, including some sick blocks.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcUnnz5k6SE[/url]

30+ on the 76ers, Bucks, and Hawks around the same time. 42 points on the Pacers in a loss.

Dude had a great season. His defense has been denigrated so much in this thread, I'd say it's actually becoming underrated. Not to mention being the only player who finished top-10 in both points and assists. Scored a solid 25% of his teams total regular season points and dished 34% of his teams total assists.[/QUOTE]
It's true. Rose is actually underrated defensively. 1 of the better PGs in that regard.

[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]i understand why you would think so when you are a kyrie fan:roll:[/QUOTE]
Ah can't argue with me because you know I'm right so you make fun of my favorite player. I don't think I need to point out how irrelevant Kyrie is to this discussion but I don't think you know what that means because every reason you've posted as to why Rose deserved it over lebron (which I'm not even arguing I agree that he did) has been irrelevant. Then again you people think Rose is responsible for your defensive success when in reality he's barely better at Kyrie at defense and that's only because he's more athletic.