[QUOTE=Black and White]:biggums: Everyone else ok, but not him.[/QUOTE]
*laughs* Why not? This was 2011. People constantly mentioned how Wade and LeBron were top 3-5. Wade had the numbers to back it up.
But if you don't think so, then that's ok.
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[QUOTE=Black and White]:biggums: Everyone else ok, but not him.[/QUOTE]
*laughs* Why not? This was 2011. People constantly mentioned how Wade and LeBron were top 3-5. Wade had the numbers to back it up.
But if you don't think so, then that's ok.
[QUOTE=Micku]*laughs* Why not? This was 2011. People constantly mentioned how Wade and LeBron were top 3-5. Wade had the numbers to back it up.
But if you don't think so, then that's ok.[/QUOTE]
Wade was really good that year, no doubt, but i cant make a case for him over the 5 i mentioned
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Wade was easily a top 5 player in 2011[/QUOTE]
This. I had him, Dirk, or Dwight as MVP that season.
[QUOTE=Black and White]Wade was really good that year, no doubt, but i cant make a case for him over the 5 i mentioned[/QUOTE]
Howard wasn't top 5 in 2011? Really? Come on. If someone is going to be left out, it's Rose, regardless of his MVP.
[QUOTE=moe94]Howard wasn't top 5 in 2011? Really? Come on. If someone is going to be left out, it's Rose, regardless of his MVP.[/QUOTE]
Yup. That's what I think too.
[QUOTE=moe94]Howard wasn't top 5 in 2011? Really? Come on. If someone is going to be left out, it's Rose, regardless of his MVP.[/QUOTE]
Yea they are interchangeable, I left Rose in there because of the MVP, but Howard can be there too, point is, can you give Wade a spot over the others?
[QUOTE=Micku]I don't think he was consider top 5 until afterwards or during his playoff run. I think most ppl had (no order)[/QUOTE]
I responded to someone who said he wasn't Top 5 even with his run.
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I responded to someone who said he wasn't Top 5 even with his run.[/QUOTE]
Oh. I misread it. My bad.
[QUOTE=Micku]I don't think he was consider top 5 until afterwards or during his playoff run. I think most ppl had (no order)
LeBron
Wade
Howard
Kobe
Rose (mvp)
Durant
Something along those lines. Nobody really expected Dirk to go off like that. He didn't even made the all nba first team that year. Durant and LeBron beat him.[/QUOTE]
You are totally right Micku
Wow, Dirk was averaging 23/7/2.6 and was somehow top three in the league??? This is [B]revisionist history[/B] if I am ever hearing it. Those numbers are not even one dimensional superstar numbers. DH was 23 and 14 along with being defensive player of the year. DH was definitely a step down from Lebron and Wade. All three were great in at least three areas of the game and scored definitively better than Dirk, ok not DH. All three made all defensive teams.
Kobe was 25/5/5.
And Dirk wasn't winning big games and 4 quarter games during the regular season like Rose who scored more and had more assist than Dirk had rebounds. Rose scored more, dominated his position, won more with a new injured team. His team dominated the elite teams. Durant had practically equal rebound numbers as Dirk and scored 4 more points per game for the league lead.
Its amazing how people are now bending things to suite Dirk. When Wade does one of the greatest finals ever when he demolished Dirk, and had WAAAAAAY better numbers during the [B]RS[/B] and [B]Finals[/B] and was a top SG defender, he wasn't the best player in the league the next year, in fact most people didn't even have him second or third. But Dirk can be mysterious be the best when Wade and Lebron are in their prime with Dirk's game fallen off with garbage numbers and pathetic defense during the RS.
Its just hilarious.
^
Sometimes, you can just tell who doesn't watch basketball. :applause:
[QUOTE=DirkNowitzki41]^
Sometimes, you can just tell who doesn't watch basketball. :applause:[/QUOTE]
:lol This is the hilarity of you guys. I dare you to point out how Dirk is better than Wade, Lebron or then DH.
I DARE YOU TO TRY.
You can tell who doesn't know basketball. There is no logical way you can possible think that Durant isn't better than Lebron if you believe Dirk was better than Lebron, Wade or then DH.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol This is the hilarity of you guys. I dare you to point out how Dirk is better than Wade, Lebron or then DH.
I DARE YOU TO TRY.
You can tell who doesn't know basketball. There is no logical way you can [B]possible think that Durant isn't better than Lebron [/B]if you believe Dirk was better than Lebron, Wade or then DH.[/QUOTE]
What??? Durant isn't a better player than LeBron, whats your point?
And noone is saying Dirk was better than LeBron that year.
[QUOTE=DirkNowitzki41]^
Sometimes, you can just tell who doesn't watch basketball. :applause:[/QUOTE]
You literally have no arguments against him so you dodge with a baseless ad hominem. Pathetic and transparent.
[QUOTE=TheReal Kendall]I'll take Durant.
I like both players but you have more options with Durant on you're team.
Dirk has never been considered top 2 overall in the league[/QUOTE]
Durant wouldnt have been considered better than
Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
Dirk
Wade
Garnett
and probably a few others if we did this in the middle of Dirk's prime 06-09ish. Durant is a borderline top 10 player back then. Now its just Bron and Durant at the top with CP3. Prime Alonzo Mourning might be considered top 5 in todays league.
[QUOTE=Black and White]What??? Durant isn't a better player than LeBron, whats your point?
And noone is saying Dirk was better than LeBron that year.[/QUOTE]
One poster definitely said that.
[QUOTE=tpols]Durant is a borderline top 10 player back then.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/2332127_o.gif[/IMG]
Just how much better do you think LeBron is than Durant and Paul?
Would LeBron also not crack the top 5 back then, if Durant would be BORDERLINE top 10?
[QUOTE=Pointguard]One poster definitely said that.[/QUOTE]
That Dirk was better than LeBron??? Hell no, in the finals alone Dirk outplayed LeBron (because LeBron wet the bed), but the season as a whole nope, Dirk was not better.
[QUOTE=moe94][IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/2332127_o.gif[/IMG]
[B]Just how much better do you think LeBron is than Durant and Paul?[/B]
Would LeBron also not crack the top 5 back then, if Durant would be BORDERLINE top 10?[/QUOTE]
Lebron is a ton better than both Durant and CP3.. its not even close. The league has moved away from one superstar teams.. now we got teams like Indy/Spurs/Golden State/Blazers etc... well balanced and stacked. And can compete with two superstar teams like OKC.
[QUOTE=tpols]Lebron is a ton better than both Durant and CP3.. its not even close. The league has moved away from one superstar teams.. now we got teams like Indy/Spurs/Golden State/Blazers etc... well balanced and stacked. And can compete with two superstar teams like OKC.[/QUOTE]
You're right, that era was absolutely no place for Durant. Iverson was winning MVPs over Shaq. What could Durant do against them!
[QUOTE=moe94]You're right, that era was absolutely no place for Durant. Iverson was winning MVPs over Shaq. What could Durant do against them![/QUOTE]
The guy I quoted said hed take Durant because 'Dirk has never been a top 2 player'. But Durant would not have been considered top 2 either had he been in his prime when Dirk was.:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=tpols]The guy I quoted said hed take Durant because 'Dirk has never been a top 2 player'. But Durant would not have been considered top 2 either had he been in his prime when Dirk was.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
To which I agree. "Durant would be a borderline top 10 between 01-06" or whatever you said is flat out ridiculous.
[QUOTE=moe94]To which I agree. "Durant would be a borderline top 10 between 01-06" or whatever you said is flat out ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Prob is ridiculous, but interesting:
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Dirk
LeBron
McGrady
Yao
Iverson
Wade
Kidd
Carter
Pierce
Elton Brand
Jermain O'Neal
Ray Allen
Where would Durant be ranked?
[QUOTE=moe94]To which I agree. "Durant would be a borderline top 10 between 01-06" or whatever you said is flat out ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Yea I exxagerated.:oldlol: Top 6-7ish more like it.. just like Dirk. Although I'd take Dirk over Durant just from watching them. Dirk plays straight to win the game. Everything he does is motivated by it. Durant is kinda in the same mold as Lebron where hes trying to get his efficiency perfect almost to a fault. Which is why he can average 31 on 50+% in the Finals and still get demolished.
[QUOTE=branslowski]Prob is ridiculous, but interesting:
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Garnett
Dirk
LeBron
McGrady
Yao
Iverson
Wade
Kidd
Carter
Pierce
Elton Brand
Jermain O'Neal
Ray Allen
Where would Durant be ranked?[/QUOTE]
Tier 1
Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/LeBron
Tier 2
Nowitzki/Garnett
Tier 3
Wade/McGrady(healthy)/Durant/Kidd
Although you can make a case for Wade being a Tier 2.
[QUOTE=Odinn]Tier 1
Shaq/Duncan/Kobe/LeBron
Tier 2
Nowitzki/Garnett
Tier 3
Wade/McGrady(healthy)/Durant/Kidd
Although you can make a case for Wade being a Tier 2.[/QUOTE]
From 01-06?
Tier 1: Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG
Tier 2: Iverson/Kidd/Pierce/Dirk/Webber/Durant/T Mac
Tier 3:Allen/O'Neal/Sheed/Wade/Carter
So I'm seeing Durant being ranked 8-10 best player between 01-06' by posters....Still means borderline top 10?..
Dirk beat the Heatles
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]From 01-06?
Tier 1: Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG
Tier 2: Iverson/Kidd/Pierce/Dirk/Webber/Durant/T Mac
Tier 3:Allen/O'Neal/Sheed/Wade/Carter[/QUOTE]
Yeah this is more like it. Odinn has severe KG issues..
Shoot. I didn't realize that was about '01-'06 span. I just ranked them while thinking their proven bests.
There were at that span, we had more than 2 potential all-time greats(more like top 20-25 ever) in their early or late prime or even peak. There isn't a this weak span in the history as for top 20-25 candidates. And Durant taking advantage of it.
It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:
[QUOTE=Odinn]Shoot. I didn't realize that was about '01-'06 span. I just ranked them while thinking their proven bests.
There were at that span, we had more than 2 potential all-time greats(more like top 20-25 ever) in their early or late prime or even peak. There isn't a this weak span in the history as for top 20-25 candidates. And Durant taking advantage of it.
It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And [B]he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 w[/B]hile Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:[/QUOTE]
Keep emberassing yourself
[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing]Dirk beat the Heatles[/QUOTE]
True, but he did have future DPOY Chandler in the middle, and Jason Terry's hot hand (18 ppg and 40% from the arc). Dirk was amazing that series, but like all Champs, he had some help.
[QUOTE=Odinn]
It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:[/QUOTE]
I said KG was a more versatile scorer and in the playoffs there wasn't that much of a difference in playoff scoring in their prime. They shot practically the same percentage with Moses being at point blank range. KG was much better defender, a much better passer, a much better decision maker and much better defensive rebounder.
But they were both probably the two best go-hard taller superstars in the game. When the M&M train came even Kareem had to side step.
[QUOTE=Odinn]Shoot. I didn't realize that was about '01-'06 span. I just ranked them while thinking their proven bests.
There were at that span, we had more than 2 potential all-time greats(more like top 20-25 ever) in their early or late prime or even peak. There isn't a this weak span in the history as for top 20-25 candidates. [B]And Durant taking advantage of it.[/B]
It is kinda ridiculous getting criticized by the poster that claimed once KG was on the same level as a scorer with Moses Malone.:roll: And he agrees with a Kobe stan that put Shaq to in his Tier 3 while Shaq being a 25/11 guy in that span. Great job ISH.:roll:[/QUOTE]
You say that like Durant hasn't already shown, barring some sort of injury or unforeseeable fall-off in ability, he's going to be a top 25 player all-time.
It still seems like people aren't properly appreciating just how good Durant is right now. For starters, he's actually a good defender at this point in his career, and I think some people still have some misconceptions about his defense based on the 2012 Finals or any season from his rookie season through 2012; but he's actually developed into a damn good defensive player. Not saying he's elite or great or anything but, at the very least, he's now a positive impact player on defense. So, on top of that, you've got a SF in the midst of a 2-year peak looking like he's going to average something like 28-8-5-1-1 on nearly 50/40/90 shooting and 60%+ TS while being the best player on one of the best teams in the league. Not to mention he's a player who elevates his game in the playoffs which makes him even more special.
I've actually said in the past on here that I think this is a very weak era for top end talent, but Durant is absolutely a player who would be, at the very least, top 10 in every era, and top 3-5 at plenty of other random times throughout NBA history. I think the best way to figure it out would be to take 2013 or 2014 Durant and go year by year and figure out where he'd rank in 2005, then 2006, then 2007, etc.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]You are totally right Micku
Wow, Dirk was averaging 23/7/2.6 and was somehow top three in the league??? This is [B]revisionist history[/B] if I am ever hearing it. Those numbers are not even one dimensional superstar numbers. DH was 23 and 14 along with being defensive player of the year. DH was definitely a step down from Lebron and Wade. All three were great in at least three areas of the game and scored definitively better than Dirk, ok not DH. All three made all defensive teams.
Kobe was 25/5/5.
And Dirk wasn't winning big games and 4 quarter games during the regular season like Rose who scored more and had more assist than Dirk had rebounds. Rose scored more, dominated his position, won more with a new injured team. His team dominated the elite teams. Durant had practically equal rebound numbers as Dirk and scored 4 more points per game for the league lead.
Its amazing how people are now bending things to suite Dirk. When Wade does one of the greatest finals ever when he demolished Dirk, and had WAAAAAAY better numbers during the [B]RS[/B] and [B]Finals[/B] and was a top SG defender, he wasn't the best player in the league the next year, in fact most people didn't even have him second or third. But Dirk can be mysterious be the best when Wade and Lebron are in their prime with Dirk's game fallen off with garbage numbers and pathetic defense during the RS.
Its just hilarious.[/QUOTE]
When you lead the 11 Mavs roster.....and a season ending injury one to a key player...and your team goes 2-7 without you...to 57 wins...
And then are easily the best player when the games matter more en route to the title. Yea...you have an argument for the best player in the league?
How can anyone say Lebron or Wade were better than Dirk in 11? They had the best team and Dirk beat them...LOL...and Dirk led his team to 1 less win in a much tougher conference with a worse team?
Howard is the only player in 11 that has an argument over Dirk...and the playoffs from Dirk trump that
Did you really just list Kobe over Dirk in 11? It's not even debatable.
ISH...where meaningless regular season games trump the games that actually matter.
It's just beyond comical at this point. stop focusing on meaningless regular season games against shit competition. If you really think Dirk would be a better player because he played a few more minutes per game agains the worst teams in the league throughout his career...you really need to rethink how you evaluate player.
And if you are going to use regular season stats so much...at least look at the true impact of Dirk. Again...57 wins despite missing his teammates to injury quite a lot throughout the year. And the team going 2-7 without him.
And....his on court impact.
Improved the offense 10.1 points per 100 possessions
Improved the defense 6 points per 100 possessions
Combined +16
I don't even have to look. I know that is better than Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Rose, and Howard in the regular season. but you'll avoid those facts like the plague and focus on how often the other guys stayed in to beat the bobcats by 20 instead of 12.
So lets get this straight. Dirk played pathetic defense....yet he improved his teams defense 6 points per 100 possessions. While he played...the Mavs had a solid 103 defensive rating. Yet you take Rose over Dirk...and say nothing about defense. Rose's team got 7.4 points worse on defense per 100 possessions when Rose was in the game. When Rose was on the floor...they had a 102.2 defensive rating in 11...barely better than the Dirk led Mavs...hahaahah. Don't you hate facts? And Rose was playing with better defenders than Dirk was. That's the sick part of it...
As for the clutch stuff. Dirk averaged 32/8/4 on 63.4% TS in crunch time in 2011 per 36 minutes. The Mavs went 32-13 in games that entered crunch time.
Rose averaged 36/8/7 on 52.9% TS in crunch time in 2011 per 36 minutes. The Bulls went 31-12 in games that entered crunch time.
Really...Dirk wasn't winning close games in the 4th qtr? Again...don't you hate facts? Of course you won't care about a 10.5% TS difference that is enormous, but Dirk was easily as good or better than Rose last in games.
You just really need to start putting more emphasis on the playoffs. Especially if you are going to take Kobe, Rose, Durant...over Dirk in 2011 overall. I swear...I haven't even seen you mention the playoffs when comparing a player....like ever. Why? Do you not agree that the playoffs matter more? I mean...do you think Kevin Love is better than prime Dirk?
I guess if you are a KG stan you have to greatly value production in the regular season on bad teams, but you take it to the extremes...
[QUOTE=KG215]You say that like Durant hasn't already shown, barring some sort of injury or unforeseeable fall-off in ability, he's going to be a top 25 player all-time.
It still seems like people aren't properly appreciating just how good Durant is right now. For starters, he's actually a good defender at this point in his career, and I think some people still have some misconceptions about his defense based on the 2012 Finals or any season from his rookie season through 2012; but he's actually developed into a damn good defensive player. Not saying he's elite or great or anything but, at the very least, he's now a positive impact player on defense. So, on top of that, you've got a SF in the midst of a 2-year peak looking like he's going to average something like 28-8-5-1-1 on nearly 50/40/90 shooting and 60%+ TS while being the best player on one of the best teams in the league. Not to mention he's a player who elevates his game in the playoffs which makes him even more special.
[B]I've actually said in the past on here that I think this is a very weak era for top end talent,[/B] but Durant is absolutely a player who would be, at the very least, top 10 in every era, and top 3-5 at plenty of other random times throughout NBA history. I think the best way to figure it out would be to take 2013 or 2014 Durant and go year by year and figure out where he'd rank in 2005, then 2006, then 2007, etc.[/QUOTE]
That was my point. Since it's all relative comparisons, it is truly important what's related to it.
Let me ask you something then. I think 2002-03 would be more accurate instead of 2005-2007 span.
Where would you rank 2012-13 Durant if he played in 2002-03 season?
Pretty select company as his competitors there.
Tim Duncan at his absolute best.
Shaq was a little bit out of shape but still 27/12/3/2 guy.
Kobe Bryant entered his prime. (although you can claim he did in 2000-01)
Nowitzki, too. If he wasn't injured the Mavs could keep their NBA Finals dream alive. (it'd be ignorant to say the Mavs would win it all if there wasn't the injury. Before Dirk going down, the Spurs were leading 2-1 and Duncan was dominating the series)
T-Mac had his best season.
KG had one of his best seasons as well.
C-Webb went down but he was on his form.
It was Kidd's highest scoring season and playoff. Also he led the league in apg once more.
Calling C-Webb and Kidd potential top 25 ever is a bit optimistic but as for top talents, it was one of the best season I've ever witnessed.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]I said KG was a more versatile scorer and in the playoffs there wasn't that much of a difference in playoff scoring in their prime. They shot practically the same percentage with Moses being at point blank range. KG was much better defender, a much better passer, a much better decision maker and much better defensive rebounder.
But they were both probably the two best go-hard taller superstars in the game. When the M&M train came even Kareem had to side step.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279443[/url]
Let's not lie. Shall we? There isn't a single post that you used 'versatile scorer'. You mentioned KG had more versatile overall game.
[QUOTE=Odinn][url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279443[/url]
Let's not lie. Shall we? There isn't a single post that you used 'versatile scorer'. You mentioned KG had more versatile overall game.[/QUOTE]
:lol Wow, can you read?
From the thread above are two examples below.
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7895250&postcount=41[/url]
"[I]It doesn't compensate for all [/I] of KG numerous advantages. Its not close. And in [B]total offense [/B]KG has an advantage because of assist/ lack of turnovers/ being much more skilled/[B] versatility[/B]/shooting/ decision [I]making and range[/I]."
It's plain as day. But you should know better.
And in a response to Legends66NBA post 44:
"[I]If you seen[/I] Moses play, his game was straight up what you saw: he put his head down and bulled toward the basket, frequently getting [I]his own rebound[/I]."
[QUOTE=Odinn]That was my point. Since it's all relative comparisons, it is truly important what's related to it.
Let me ask you something then. I think 2002-03 would be more accurate instead of 2005-2007 span.
Where would you rank 2012-13 Durant if he played in 2002-03 season?
Pretty select company as his competitors there.
Tim Duncan at his absolute best.
Shaq was a little bit out of shape but still 27/12/3/2 guy.
Kobe Bryant entered his prime. (although you can claim he did in 2000-01)
Nowitzki, too. If he wasn't injured the Mavs could keep their NBA Finals dream alive. (it'd be ignorant to say the Mavs would win it all if there wasn't the injury. Before Dirk going down, the Spurs were leading 2-1 and Duncan was dominating the series)
T-Mac had his best season.
KG had one of his best seasons as well.
C-Webb went down but he was on his form.
It was Kidd's highest scoring season and playoff. Also he led the league in apg once more.
Calling C-Webb and Kidd potential top 25 ever is a bit optimistic but as for top talents, it was one of the best season I've ever witnessed.[/QUOTE]
I think he'd for sure be behind Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe. I know a lot of people on here love T-Mac and think it's a no-brainer that 2003 T-Mac (his peak) was better than any version of Durant we've seen so far, but I think it'd at least be debatable between he and Durant on who should or would rank where. Basically, after Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe, I think you could make a case for Durant being higher than all of the other players you listed.
[QUOTE=KG215]I think he'd for sure be behind Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe. I know a lot of people on here love T-Mac and think it's a no-brainer that 2003 T-Mac (his peak) was better than any version of Durant we've seen so far, but I think it'd at least be debatable between he and Durant on who should or would rank where. Basically, after Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe, I think you could make a case for Durant being higher than all of the other players you listed.[/QUOTE]
T-Mac had more of a man's game than Durant though. Kobe DEFINITELY had more of a man's game than Durant.
Maybe you can say it doesn't matter, but to me it does matter that he is so frail and officiated with marshmallow padded kid-gloves.
IMO, its a fair criticism. I get sick of seeing him trying to handle the ball while fumbling around like a newborn giraffe and hearing the refs whistle to send him to the free throw line for dribbling the ball off of his own foot.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]When you lead the 11 Mavs roster.....and a season ending injury one to a key player...and your team goes 2-7 without you...to 57 wins...[/quote]
Five of those teams beat Dallas at home with Dirk and these loses were on the road right after they lost their second best scorer along with Dirk.
[quote]
And then are easily the best player when the games matter more en route to the title. Yea...you have an argument for the best player in the league?
How can anyone say Lebron or Wade were better than Dirk in 11? They had the best team and Dirk beat them...LOL...and Dirk led his team to 1 less win in a much tougher conference with a worse team? [/quote]
Chauncey Billups was better than Kobe and Shaq? Cause Kobe and Shaq were massacred.
One series should never decide who is the better player. When Wade had a much better regular season and a vastly superior finals than Dirk had 2011, he wasn't considered the best player in the game - most people had Kobe ahead of him who had no imprint in the postseason. So no way should one dimensional Dirk be super special and get the nod here.
Dallas won on defense. Lebron and Wade usually score much more than they did - they usually score more than Dirk (Durant and Kobe too). Dirk can't get that credit. And YOU are a hardcore believer that defense and rebounding is a reason why teams win. You argue that like a crazed maniac here on the boards. You can't have it both ways. When Tyson left, I think the only starter gone, they didn't win a playoff game the next year. Not ONE. With Dirk producing like he did the year before.
And its very different if Dirk just scored waaaay more than he usually does but the main reason they won is that this eras highest scorers were basically trash when they played Dallas.
[quote]
Howard is the only player in 11 that has an argument over Dirk...and the playoffs from Dirk trump that.
[/quote]
Interesting - you must value defense and rebounding - wait no you obviously don't. His team faired well in the first half of the season...
[quote]
It's just beyond comical at this point. stop focusing on meaningless regular season games against shit competition. If you really think Dirk would be a better player because he played a few more minutes per game agains the worst teams in the league throughout his career...you really need to rethink how you evaluate player. [/quote]
Sorry the entire history of sports counts all games. Not just me. Not just basketball, its in all sports. Stop trying to make up your own rules. Dirk plays mediocre defense which is half the game and you often argue that its why Chicago had the best record. Its a high value point.
Creativity is also a very big mark for offensive players in all fluid sports and Dirk is mediocre there as well. Lebron and Wade are way more creative, better passers, more resourceful, better passers, creators for others and better offensive players overall. They are much better defenders. Position wise they are the best rebounders at their position while Dirk is mediocre. There is no advantage Dirk has on them being that scoring is part of offense. You could say clutch shooting but Terry has that on them too.
And sorry if you take the 105 games played over the course of the year, line up their best games to worse games against Dirks they both have like a 80/25 type of advantage. If you include defense its jumps to 85% of all games where they play better than Dirk. In no sport would that type of disparity be given to the Dirk type of guy. Its ludicrous.
And Dirk plays with a handicap - he guards off his position way more than an average player. There are no other top 40 maybe top 50 players that did this.
[quote]
I guess if you are a KG stan you have to greatly value production in the regular season on bad teams, but you take it to the extremes...[/QUOTE]
KG won a title as the best player and played on more contending teams than Dirk ever did while just focusing on defense when KG was beyond his prime. You greatly underestimate defense, without Tyson Chandler Dirk wouldn't be in conversation of best PFs. But defense doesn't factor in for you.