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[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]You can't build a team around Marion. You Could With Miller.
on Bob Love: There was a documentary on hin similar to the Mike Ray Richardson one. Its sad that after his player career he became a dishwasher for a restaurant.[/QUOTE]
You can't really build a team around either but you could come as close with Marion as you could Reggie. Then again Reggie is one of the 3 or 4 most overrated players of all time
[QUOTE=raiderfan19]You can't' really build a team around either but you could come as close with Marion as you could Reggie. Then again Reggie is one of the 3 or 4 most overrated players of all time[/QUOTE]
A guy who took his team to the Finals and deep in the playoffs countless times in the 90s you can't build around?
Marion would be Derrick McKey on Reggie teams.
A team built for Shawn Marion would look like.
PG Mark Jackson
SG John Starks
SF Shawn Marion
PF Otis Thorpe
C Tyson Chandler
even on a team like like this Otis Thorpe might be the go to guy. You can't build around a guy who doesn't get plays drawn for him.
They both scored off of assisted plays all the time and elite all time off the ball movement. 80% of Reggie's career playoff buckets were off of assists. The 7 seconds or less suns were built around Marion as much as the pacers were built around miller. Nash was obviously the engine but that team doesn't work without Marion running the break on the wing as well as anyone in the league, rebounding like an elite big, being able to hit 3s and being able to defend everyone but centers. The saddest thing about that team is that everyone forgets how vital Marion was, even though it was obvious with how much worse the suns got after the shaq trade.
But Miller was the Pacers best player by a long shot. Marion 3rd best behind Nash and Amare. All I'm saying is if Shawn Marion is the teams best player they're not going far at all. As for Miller 2 games away from an ring.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]But Miller was the Pacers best player by a long shot. Marion 3rd best behind Nash and Amare. .[/QUOTE]
No he wasnt and amare was only better than Marion in 05.
Please continue GOAT even though we are not commenting but we are still reading it.. Kudos to you my friend for a job well done.
[QUOTE=raiderfan19]No he wasnt andd amare was only better than Marion in 05.[/QUOTE]
Who was the Pacers best player Sam Perkins?
I'm a huge Marion fan but he cant be the best player on your team.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#142 John Kennedy Twyman
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 11 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on playoff teams, #1 on Bad Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 23-8-3 on 45/78
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE] would guess that most of you know the story of Jack Twyman and Maurice Stokes. If you don
I can't belive they haven't done a story on Stokes/Twyman as the NBAs version Brian's song.
The Hudson one was very interesting. Never knew much of anything about him.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#140 Thomas Doane Chambers
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 17 (10)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1/#2/#3 on borderline contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-7-2-1 on 48/30/81
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE] player develops a reputation for a lot of reasons, and seldom is it not earned. In the case of Tom Chambers this is true as usual, but though it is not common for a reputation to change, people often do, and Chambers, he did. In addition to his reputation earned for his skills. A high flying ambidextrous slammer who could score from anywhere on the court utilizing whatever advantage he had in size, speed or skill on you. He also earned another reputation.
[I]“Tom’s the most selfish guy I’ve ever played with, I hated playing with Tom.” -Gerald Henderson
“I would tell people, he’s a fine scorer, but I don’t want him on my team, it’s all about Tom.” - Don Chaney
“When I watched him play while I was in college I thought he was the most selfish player in the World.” - Kevin Johnson[/I]
And Tom didn't do much to help his own cause as he was also prone to uses his words poorly. At the very least he was prone to hyperbole and not as much so in terms of humility.
[I]“There is no way their front-line (The Celtics) can match-up with ours (The Sonics) - Chambers, 1985
“I’m 6’10”. I can run, jump, shoot the three and dunk. There aren’t many of us around.” - Describing himself
“Today I’m the best player in the World” - 1987, after winning the all-star game MVP[/I]
But over time, things change, especially people, maturity will do that.
[I]“I’m sure earlier in his career he was selfish, but I never looked at him as selfish, I looked at him as playing on bad teams. Bad teams are selfish. Good teams are unselfish. He’s a hell of a guy now...he wants to win...without Tom we’d be a team struggling below .500….He is the best player I’ve ever coached.” - Cotton Fitzsimmons in 1989 & 1990
“Those things about Tom are in the past, he’s a winner now and he’s a leader on this team.” - Kevin Johnson
“When you first come in the league it’s about survival and making a name for yourself. But eventually, you learn that winning is all that matters.” - Chambers in 1991[/I]
Tom’s career started in San Diego, drafted out of Utah, his home state where his family were local legends as athletes, Chambers who needed discipline, was set free and played well, but without direction on two terrible Clipper teams. He was traded the next off-season to Seattle where he played on more bad teams and developed the aforementioned selfish rap. In 1986-87 the Sonics had three players average 23 ppg for the first time in NBA history. Dale Ellis, Xavier McDaniel and Chambers. Chambers won the All-Star game MVP that season, scoring 34 points in front of the home crowd but the Sonics were inconsistent and at best considered a mediocre team, finishing 39-43. As luck would have it they seemed to get it together just in time for the playoffs. They upset Dallas and Houston, but met their match against the Lakers who swept them from the Western Conference Finals. Chambers led the team with 31 points in the closeout win over the Mavericks and 37 points in the final game against the Rockets. The next season they won 44 games, returned to the playoffs, but lost to the Nuggets in five games. Chambers again led the team, even in defeat, averaging 26 points per game for the series.
In 1988 the NBA’s collective bargaining agreement’s new “unrestricted Free Agency” rules went into effect. The first player to sign a contract under this construct was Chambers when he signed a 5-year $9 million deal with Phoenix, rebuilding after being rocked by scandal in 1987. Chambers was the final piece and the Suns rose quickly in 1988-89, winning 55 games and advancing to the Western Conference Finals with Chambers averaging 26-8-3 for the season and 26-11-4 in the playoffs. They would lose to the Lakers. In 1990 Chambers averaged 27.2 points, fourth in the league on better than 50% shooting. The Suns won 54 games, beat the Lakers and returned to the Western Conference Finals. After that the Suns and Chambers star began to fall slightly. Age was catching up with him and quick. He averaged 20-6-3 and 16-5-2 in the next two seasons. In 1992 the Suns traded for Charles Barkley and Chambers moved to the bench. The team reached the finals that season, the only time Chambers played on that stage, but they lost to the Bulls in 6 games. After that Chambers spent two seasons at home in Utah before drifting around the league still trying to hang on for three more seasons between 1995 and 1998. Chambers career finished with four all-star selections, two all-NBA selections and two MVP top tens.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#139 Walter Davis
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 15 (9)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1/#2/#3 on borderline contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-3-4-1 on 52/84
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]he Greyhound, Sweet D, The Man With The Velvet Touch. Walter Davis went by many names others gave him, but from the moment he entered the NBA, he made a name for himself. The 1978 Rookie of the Year out of North Carolina Davis joined a Suns team that had made a surprise run to the Finals in 1976, but found out it was still a few pieces away in 1977. Davis averaged 24 points and 6 rebounds as a rookie, the highest averages he’d ever post in those categories. He finished fifth in the MVP voting and the Suns won 49 games, 15 more than the previous season. The next season they won 50 games and pushed the Sonics to seven games in the Western Finals. Davis averaged 22-5-5-2 for the postseason becoming a 2nd team. He made the all-star team in his first four seasons. The Suns did their part by winning 55 and 57 games in ‘80 and ‘81, but bowed out in the conference semifinals both times.
After an injury in '82, Davis bounced back in 1983, leading the 53-win Suns in scoring, but despite 26 ppg from Walt in the playoffs they were upset in round one vs. Denver. The Suns got off to a terrible start in 83-84, 6-13, but battled back to finish .500 and make the playoffs. The Suns had been upset numerous times in recent years, but this time they played spoiler knocking off 48 win Portland and 45-win Utah en route to the Western Conference Finals for the second time in Davis’ career. As usual, Davis led the way in the playoffs averaging 25 points and 6 and a half assists. During the first six years of his career Davis played with great guards like Paul Westphal and Dennis Johnson as well as perimeter oriented center Alvan Adams. Now he was teamed with a premier frontcourt; Larry Nance, James Edwards and Maurice Lucas. This figured to be a launching pad for the Suns new core, but instead it was their high point, from here on out, instead of winning games, they started pointing fingers and getting high. In 1985, the day after matching his career with 43 points on 17-27 shooting, Davis called the Suns owner and told him he was checking himself into rehab for cocaine and alcohol addiction. It didn’t stop there, in 1987 the Suns organization was involved in what SI called the largest drug bust in pro sports history. Five players ( James Edwards, Jay Humphries, Grant Gondrezick and two former Suns Gar Heard and Mike Bratz ) were indicted for trafficking drugs. Davis admitted to a relapse and excepted a suspension from the NBA.
Davis’ career was never the same, already in his thirties, fighting knee and elbow injuries and addiction problems, despite his skill he was no longer a star. His legacy was already established though. He was a pure scorer, with great speed and quickness, he could handle the ball against pressure or in the open court and his jump shot was a thing of beauty. His coach John MacLeod was an admirer; “He’s Not your average shooter. He’s an artist. His jumper is picture perfect. If you wanted to teach someone how to shoot the ball, you would say to them, ‘Do it the way Walter does.’ He has great rotation on the ball and a soft, gentle touch.” Like most great scorers, he picked up his game when his team needed most. Right away, he showed that he was blessed with the “clutch gene,” displaying an uncanny ability to take over games in crunch time and becoming one of the most feared late-game players in the league. He had a great spin move which he could use to create space for his deadly mid-range J or get to the rim and finish in a number of creative ways. In 1983 he scored 36 points on 15-16 shooting from the floor and made all six free throws. His only miss was a meaningless shot with under one minute and the game wrapped up. He once scored all of his teams points in a quarter, and even outscored an entire team, albeit in high school. A truly great and under-appreciated player and the Suns all-time leading scorer; Walter Davis, the Greyhound as Brent Musburger called him, but he prefers Sweet D., the name his teammates gave him.
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[QUOTE=hangintheair]Please continue GOAT even though we are not commenting but we are still reading it.. Kudos to you my friend for a job well done.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for following, always love feedback, especially suggestions on how this can be better.
[QUOTE=magnax1]The Hudson one was very interesting. Never knew much of anything about him.[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut3R7SViJlY"]You'll enjoy this I think - Suns vs. Hawks highlights X-MAS 1970[/URL]
@ Raiderfan and LKizzle RE: Miller vs. Marion
Obviously I side with Miller way over Marion all-time, but I see Raiderfans point more and more. Marion was probably a better fit on at least as many teams as Miller, Marion has a better all-around game, Marion can do a lot more things Miller can do than Miller can do that Marion can't.
Still Reggie can be your alpha. Marion can't. Not sure why Reggie had that ability, and why the Pacers could be a contender built around the 10-20th best player in the league, but they did it. Reggie made and took big shots more than anyone else who wasn't an MVP candidate in his era, that's a real short version of why I prefer him over Marion.
Thanks to both of you for your regular contributions to the thread.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Chet probably around the 110-120 mark. Dandridge and Davis around 120-135 range. My guess.[/QUOTE]
I was 4 off with Walt Davis. I predicted 135 and he's 139.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I was 4 off with Walt Davis. I predicted 135 and he's 139.[/QUOTE]
Wait 'till you see where the other two end up...
A bit off topic, and I don't want to derail the thread, but if anyone has thoughts on the best Suns ever. not just a list, but a few thoughts, something you've learned, observations or memories. I've always liked the franchise and when they acquired Barkley, a teenage me was pretty pumped. But without much more than a glance my greatest Suns ever list would be as follows:
Barkley
Nash
KJ
Hawkins
Davis
Adams
Chambers
Marion
Nance
Amar'e
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Wait 'till you see where the other two end up...
A bit off topic, and I don't want to derail the thread, but if anyone has thoughts on the best Suns ever. not just a list, but a few thoughts, something you've learned, observations or memories. I've always liked the franchise and when they acquired Barkley, a teenage me was pretty pumped. But without much more than a glance my greatest Suns ever list would be as follows:
Barkley
Nash
KJ
Hawkins
Davis
Adams
Chambers
Marion
Nance
Amar'e[/QUOTE]
Charlie Scott
Paul Westphal
Marbury
Cebalos
amazing Job GOAT!
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#138 Russell Westbrook
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Borderline Alphas
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 6 (4)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2 on contender
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-5-7-2 on 44/31/82
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]o say his stock is rising is an understatement. Last season, the first I added Westbrook to these rankings he was ranked 215. He
Sorry that I haven't been commenting, but I've definitely been reading every one so far, so keep up the good work
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#137 Horace Junior Grant
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 17 (10)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #3 on Champions and Contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 13-9-3-1-1 on 52/69
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]he stories Horace Grant could tell.
I liked Ho Grant but what was the major difference between Charles Oakley Otis Thorpe AC Green and Kevin Willis? Also
BTW GOAT, great, great thread. Know that even if some of us aren't commenting per se, we're still reading every word, and waiting eagerly for the next update.
Tremendous research, glad to have you back on the board, and thanks a ton for sharing your knowledge with us.
GOAT thread is GOAT.
Agree with others. This thread is great and is really helping me educate myself a little more on some of the lesser known basketball pioneers and players before my time. Kudos GOAT. You know the comments will start pouring in like crazy once we get into the top 50-75 area and on when we get to the stars we all know and have many opinions on.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Who was the Pacers best player Sam Perkins?
I'm a huge Marion fan but he cant be the best player on your team.[/QUOTE]
I'd say smite but there are a variety of people you could say. They were similar to the 2000s pistons in that they had a lot of good players but no great ones. Chauncey billups shouldn't have been good enough to be the best player on a champion either but he was. Sometimes you don't really have a best player.
I understand(and agree with) the point you are making. Marion couldn't be a go to guy. But considering you weren't winning a title with anyone outside of the top 50 as your best player(if that many) tha fact is much less important in ranking people outside that number.
Btw on the suns list wouldn't Kidd have to be on it somewhere? I know he wasn't there all that long but that version of Kidd was absolutely amazing
Great thread.
I've always been impressed by Tom Chambers' game. He had a unique combination of skills, and was just fun to watch.
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#135 Norman Ellard Nixon
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #3/#4 on Champions and Contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 17-3-9-2 on 49/78
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]o be a little man in basketball, you
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#134 Maurice Edward Cheeks
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 15 (10)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #3/#4 on Champions and Contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 13-3-8-2 on 53/79
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE]nother undersized guard from a small college who played a vital supporting role for an NBA Champion in the early eighties, Maurice Cheeks was often compared to Norm Nixon during their playing days. Drafted in 1978 out of the Missouri Valley Conference, Cheeks first got noticed when scouts went to see Indiana State
How the hell is Chambers above Lou Hudson and Jack Twyman? :biggums:
Nixon and Cheeks 2 underrated guarda (along with Mike Ray and Fat Lever and Blackman ans Gus Williams and Alvin Robertson and Jim Paxson. )
[QUOTE=fpliii]BTW GOAT, great, great thread. Know that even if some of us aren't commenting per se, we're still reading every word, and waiting eagerly for the next update.
Tremendous research, glad to have you back on the board, and thanks a ton for sharing your knowledge with us.[/QUOTE]
100% agree! :rockon:
Just like everyone else is saying...keep up the great work I look forward to your updates GOAT
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#133 Chester Walker
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (11)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #3/#4 on Champions and Contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-7-2 on 47/80
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE]f only we had 82.games.com when Chet Walker played. The Clutch stats they track today are so important because of players like
I think Chet along with Gus Johnson were the two most underrated forwards of the 60s and early 70s.
Great thread, but if you keep up with this pace it will take years to complete :D
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#132 Rasheed Abdul Wallace
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 16 (13)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1/#2/#3 on Contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 15-7-2-1-1 on 47/34/72
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Is Rasheed a Hall of Famer?
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[SIZE="4"][FONT="Georgia"]This section, the next four players anyway, is dedicated to guys who perpetuate one of the most frustrating, but as always, true stereotypes in basketball. The nonathletic white big man. Here however we will pay homage to guys who had great careers despite not being cast from the typical mold.[/FONT][/SIZE]
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#131 Robert Clyde Jones
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 12 (12)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3/#4 on Playoff teams and Contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 12-6-3-2-2 on 54/80
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]S[/SIZE]ome players need to be the man. Others don
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#129 Jack Wayne Sikma
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Championship Pieces: Non-Alpha
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 14 (11)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on Contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 17-11-4-1 on 47/85
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE] gangly, gawking 6’11” Dutch raised toehead is not the traditional image associated with NBA greatness in the pivot, but Jack Sikma had no problem defying those odds nor the unprecipitated criticism of his draft selection from numerous sources including his future coach Don Nelson who said he would have selected Sikma 23rd overall only if his team had already used all 22 first round choices. In eight seasons in Seattle Sikma became the face of Sonics basketball and helped them earn the “Super” that preceded their nickname winning the 1979 NBA Championship. After a 5-17 start during his rookie year, Sikma and the Sonics took off, reaching the Finals in 1978 before becoming Champions in 1979 as mentioned, but following the next postseasons defeat at the hands of the Lakers (who Seattle has cast off in ‘78 and ‘79) internal conflict and poor front office management grounded the once high lying Northwesterners. Sikma, a key figure during the title run, having averaged 15 and 12 from the center position, had evolved during the first half of the 1980’s into one of the games best centers averaging 18-11-4 while making seven consecutive all-star games. As one by one the former pieces of Sonics greatness began to depart; Dennis Johnson, John Johnson, Fred Brown, Gus Williams, soon it was just Sikma and head coach/GM Lenny Wilkens who remained. Though Wilkens had been key to the team's turnaround in 1977-78, now. in 1985 Sikma and other teammates wanted him replaced as coach saying he was, if anything “Too nice a guy” to coach in the league. The next off-season Sikma demanded a trade, though he loved Seattle, he wanted to play for a contender again and he knew Seattle could not trade a local hero like him without his precipitating it. As team President Bob Whitsitt said then; “Jack is huge in our community, he’s bigger than the Space Needle” add to that former GM Zolie Volchok once claimed, “I wouldn’t trade Jack Sikma for the resurrection of Marilyn Monroe in my bedroom.” and you can imagine how shocking his 1986 trade to the Bucks was.
Milwaukee had a history of trading for aging center having acquired Bob Lanier and Dave Cowens earlier in the decade. They were perpetually bridesmaids in the Eastern Conference Finals to Boston or Philadelphia. They hoped Sikma could put them over the top and despite more regular season success, Milwaukee never took the next step in the playoffs. Sikma averaged 14 points and 8 rebounds in five seasons with the Bucks before retiring. His seven all-star selections, two MVP top-ten finishes and his 15/10 average in almost 100 playoff games a starter speak to his high level of play, Nelson eventually changed his tune and said of Sikma; “While I don’t think he’s the type of player who can carry a team, his value lies in his ability to do really well, everything a center has to do. There isn’t a part of the game he isn’t good at.” To basketball coaches he is perhaps most famous for the move he created; a reverse 180 pivot post move, the basic stepback jumper today, simply known as the SIkma move then, utilizing his high release and exceptional footwork and range of his jump shot. In addition he consistently rebounded and defended his position at an above-average to exceptional level. In the ‘79 Finals, at just 23 years of age and during the pivotal third game he had 21 points on 10-14 shooting and 17 rebounds while holding superstar Elvin Hayes to 5-20 from the field; he would average 16 points 15 rebounds and over 3 blocks for the series. In 1987, nearly 32 now with the Bucks he came up with 18 points and 21 rebounds in do or die game five win in the first round versus the 76ers with Doctor J and Sir Charles. Keeping with the theme of Ironmen, Sikma played in 1,209 of 1,248 games during his career. What’s with these guys. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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