Dunking Data For 1988-1993: MJ is the Goat In-Game Dunker for Wing Players

[QUOTE=3ball]So the options for why the FGA/Dunk stat declined are:

1) The dunk was not prevalent until 1992

2) Players became athletic in 1992

3) 1 and 2 above[/QUOTE]
No, it's also possible it became easier to dunk. Those are just alternative hypotheses.

I think players simply seeking the dunk more now has something to do with it.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]If slashing to them was harder then than it is now, then players who score a lot by slashing to the rim would struggle more in the 90s than they would now.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. But Wade is similar to a 80s Jordan, just shorter and less athletic/skilled but still good enough to be impactful. He wouldn't be setting finals FT records like he did in '06 but he could be like a Drexler type, maybe less effective due to his lack of size.

[QUOTE][B]If teams today defend the 3 better than they did back then[/B], then players who score a lot of points off 3s will struggle more today that they would back in the 90s.[/QUOTE]

Do they though? Like I said, this past season teams were taking 22 3s per game (record) and had the highest league wide eFG% ever. Look at how much space a 6'3" Curry (24 PPG, taking 8 3s per game for 42.4%) was getting on his shots this past season:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnEEClCcSp8[/url]

Paying special attention to his 3 shooting, notice how he can just dribble up and shoot basically any time he wants. Notice how much space he has to operate. Basically the only form of resistance the defense can muster is waving hello at him :lol

Then look at how Pippen played Magic in the '91 Finals. Forced him to basically back down like he was posting up from the half court line. That's what hand checking does to perimeter players, especially PGs.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE[/url]

Can't just dribble up and launch whenever you feel like it with all the space you want. Watch game tape from the 80s-90s and watch for that, perimeter players dribbling with their backs to the basket at the 3 point line because of hand checking. Guys had to fight off screens to get open for 3s ala Reggie Miller (or catch the defense sleeping of course).

Physicality is not conducive to 3 point shooting. That's why since the '05 rule changes (even earlier handcheck curtailing rules too), 3 point attempts have steadily gone up through the seasons.

[QUOTE=fpliii]No, it's also possible it became easier to dunk. Those are just alternative hypotheses.[/QUOTE]
The increase in the FGA/Dunk stat up to previous levels didn't occur just in 2000, it went from 20.3 in 1998 to 24.2 in 1999, and then up to 26.2 in 2000.

Would that mean it is athleticism and/or prevalence of the dunk declined during this time?

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]
Do they though? Like I said, this past season teams were taking 22 3s per game (record) and had the highest league wide eFG% ever. Look at how much space a 6'3" Curry (24 PPG, taking 8 3s per game for 42.4%) was getting on his shots this past season:
[/QUOTE]

We also need to consider that on average, players are much better 3 point shooters than they were in the 80s and 90s.

When the defense is allowed to camp in the paint indefinitely and isn't even guarding the three point line to begin with, as was the case in previous eras, why is a strong-side flood or other scrambling scheme needed?.. Why would anyone think to come up with such a strategy?

Those schemes were originally developed to specifically combat the arrival of floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds, which were things that didn't exist in previous eras, so as one would figure and as the video below demonstrates, those strategies weren't needed to play effective defense, since you COULD pack the paint and were defending a shot allocation of all two-pointers..

Since the scrambling schemes were developed to combat new things that didn't exist in previous eras, the absence of such sophistication defensively in previous eras certainly wouldn't mean it was easier to score, and the stats don't back that such an assertion either.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Paint_Congestion_in_Wilts_Era__e5cc5559f5ecbd15aefec46a22dd4b99.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Eurostep_5cc9d1bfc6064cfecf8deaef003568c2.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=DatAsh]We also need to consider that on average, players are much better 3 point shooters than they were in the 80s and 90s.[/QUOTE]

How would you even figure out if this is a true statement or not? :confusedshrug:

Ray Allen was drafted in 1996, shot about 4 3s per game from then-2000. When the rule changes in the middle of the 2000s happened, he was taking upwards of 8 per game. I mean, did he get better as a shooter or were the conditions for his 3 point shooting improved?

Dell Curry was a 6'4" sharpshooter who was getting 1-3 3-pt attempts per game in the 90s until the league shortened the line, then he was getting about 5 per game. His son is a 6'3" sharpshooter who takes 8 3s per game. Is Steph really that much of a better 3-pt shooter than his father or is he operating under more optimal conditions (like Dell got when the league moved the line temporarily)?

[QUOTE=DatAsh]

I think players simply seeking the dunk more now has something to do with it.

[/QUOTE]
The theory that players seek the dunk more today is an insult to guys that played in the 80's who were influenced by Dr. J and others.. it will also be an insult 10 years from now when someone says that about today's players.

The more rational reason for material shifts in the number of dunks from year to year are rule changes and factors affecting style of play, especially since the NBA said as much - they changed the rules specifically to reduce physicality, "open up the game" and have more dunks.

[QUOTE=fpliii]
No, it's also possible it became easier to dunk. Those (prevalence and athleticism) are just alternative hypotheses.
[/QUOTE]
The shifts in the number of dunks from year to year are too significant for athleticism or prevalence to be the cause - and the stat shifts the wrong way, like it did in between 1999 and 2001, when dunks went back down to earlier levels..

The decline of dunks between 1999 and 2001 shows that we don't have enough data yet - it's possible that it works in cycles where defenses catch up to offensive strategy or vice versa over a period of time, and this could be affecting the dunking frequency - that would explain why dunks went back down between 1999 and 2001... dunking appears to be creeping back down now as well, as it did pretty materially in 2010 too.

I think the NBA would agree that dunking frequency each year is mostly a factor of rule changes and style of play, since they have changed the rules over the years specifically so there would be less physicality and more dunks.
-

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Oh he couldn't?:oldlol: I swear it's like some of fools have never watched anyone besides Jordan.

He gets even more lift than Jordan on this dunk:[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU[/url]
[/quote]

Err, that's a one-leg takeoff, not a hop step. And he certainly didn't get more air than Jordan on that dunk.

[quote]and here's your hop step:

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/ib1aU0A8thSath.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Who said that James was INCAPABLE of jumping off a hop step? What I said was that he is a VASTLY worse leaper than Jordan off of a hop step, and I asked you to find an example of him dunking ON someone off a hop step. The video you posted shows him just doing an uncontested dunk off a hop step, and showing very little vertical to boot (as expected, since he's a comparatively poor hop step leaper). Hell, it looks like he barely completes the dunk.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Except he [I]clearly[/I] didn't and it was against no resistance whatsoever. Surely, you can find a better gif or video.

[B]Show me ONE instance like this where Bron or any player from this era has to beat 2 doubles/trap before running into a 7 ft shot blocker who actually challenges his dunk attempt at the rim:[/B]

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iHwd5KuplF3Ml.gif[/IMG]

I mean with advanced defense being what it is nowadays, this must go on all the time. I have no idea why you keep posting gifs of uncontested dunks where Bron bee-lines unimpeded to the basket (or at best him dunking over midgets or guys trying to take charges) :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]


[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/lR8Tut3C7gxcA/giphy.gif[/IMG]

from all the bball ive watched, and ive watched alot, i think dwade has had the most "challenged, chest to chest poster dunks" of any wing player for this generation.

[IMG]http://instntrply.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBronDunk.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1066360/lebron-james-dunk-o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4032439/lenose.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/kDrgtw.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/ovYBdj.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/Qz76AL.gif[/IMG]

^all upper body/chest dunks. for a perimeter, nobody has had better ingame dunks than lebron. the combination of power, speed, and aesthetics. my goodness. :eek: notice that all these dunks are contested by vaunted defenders/team defenses too?

you can also see what collengelo was referring to about defenses being more complex. look at the quick help defense (double teams) as soon as lebron is getting ready to drive. damn. like barkley said though, it doesnt matter when dude is that big, fast and strong. per barkley, the most unstoppable perimeter player in history.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][IMG]http://instntrply.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBronDunk.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1066360/lebron-james-dunk-o.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4032439/lenose.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/kDrgtw.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/ovYBdj.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/Qz76AL.gif[/IMG]

^all upper body/chest dunks. for a perimeter, nobody has had better ingame dunks than lebron. the combination of power, speed, and aesthetics. my goodness. :eek: notice that all these dunks are contested by vaunted defenders/team defenses too?

you can also see what collengelo was referring to about defenses being more complex. look at the quick help defense (double teams) as soon as lebron is getting ready to drive. damn. like barkley said though, it doesnt matter when dude is that big, fast and strong. per barkley, the most unstoppable perimeter player in history.[/QUOTE]

bwahahahahaha @ all of this reaching.

We've posted double the amount of videos and gifs and we've yet to scratch the surface. And now by posting a few it makes Bron better?

Those are some pretty impressive dunks by LeBron, though. One thing I notice about his posters is that they're very Shaq-like.

Sheer power bulldozing anything in sight.

Nice gifs.

i have more footage from his cleveland days that i've yet to post.

lebron has better power dunks chest to chest. period. as kuniva said, straight power and dismantling of his opposition.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]for a perimeter, nobody has had better ingame dunks than lebron.[/QUOTE][img]http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/shaking_head_breaking_bad.gif[/img]

i think anyone who says lebron cant dunk off two feet at all, or doesnt have a single "chest to chest poster" dunk is being a bit dishonest. but i think anyone with half a brain at least knows that jordan does this MUCH better and with MUCH more frequency.

just like how you can find a highlight of bron or kobe doing a crazy circus shot. sure its something that they can pull out of their *ss every now and then, but those crazy circus shots were part of jordan's regularly used repertoire.

[IMG]http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/03/LeBron-James-Dunk-Jason-Terry.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif[/IMG]

lebron's chest dunks are GOAT, but look at his best posters. the dunk over john lucas = FEAR

One important facet that people are overlooking is MJ's ability to read and react.

His court vision (as was talked about in a past thread) is beyond that of Bron and Kobe. Only a handful of players can even come close (Bird, Magic and perhaps a few others).

MJ was able to read the defense and react before the defense settled. Couple that with his lightning fast cat like moves he was able to dunk before the defense knew what hit them, even in a more congested space.

Another important factor is his ability to read the defense with his back turned to the rim. He is the master at beating the defense with his back to the basket, either hitting turnaround shots, making a pass or where he is completely untouchable by attacking. Going through some of his highlights his back was usually to the basket. And he's suddenly spin and dunk before the defense adjusted.

So it wasn't that the defense was 'weak' like some try to claim. He was just that much quicker and smarter.

Example... every other dunk in this vid
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPRyG5bOOtY&channel=medestinier[/url]

You'll notice him just exploding and losing the defender and getting to the rim for the dunk before the defense can adjust properly. As soon as he notices a rotating defender, possible double team, or any slight crease he attacks.

He's also great at catching and dunking. It takes him a split second to read and react. He can not just catch and react, but his ability to jump from any angle and position without dribbling or taking an extra step is what separates him from Bron and Kobe and to be honest most dunkers ever (including VC). He rarely has to gather himself for a dunk (or a shot), his moves are seamless never breaking stride.

One last thing that's perhaps unique to MJ.

His ability to 'adjust' while in the air.

I can't think of too many dunkers that can adjust while in the air. He'd be up in the air and shift his body to an angle entirely while cocking the ball back. Again, this is while in the air, not before takeoff or during takeoff. He'd jump up and switch hands (which isn't so rare) but also move the ball away from defenders at the same time. I've seen people do both of those, but I can't think of too many instances in which people have done these things at the same time. At least not as often as he has.

He's shifted his body and pumped the ball while in the air to avoid double teams. Re-read... to avoid double teams while in the air.

He's been hit while in the air so his body shifts, yet he still pumps the ball with one hand and dunks it.

Maybe somebody will post a gif or link of somebody doing that once or twice, but not as many as MJ and not with the combinations of actions that I posted. Closest I think of right now is Blake Griffin with some of the stuff.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][IMG]http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/03/LeBron-James-Dunk-Jason-Terry.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif[/IMG]

lebron's chest dunks are GOAT, but look at his best posters. the dunk over john lucas = FEAR[/QUOTE]

How can they be GOAT when 90% are against midgets? and most of them aren't even contesting?

One more thing...

Some of MJ's dunks didn't look as ferocious because the rims didn't give as much as they do today.

The spring support system that's included in today's rims (thanks to Shaq) gives more, so the bending of the rim gives the illusion of the dunk being more powerful.

[QUOTE=andgar923]One last thing that's perhaps unique to MJ.

His ability to 'adjust' while in the air.

I can't think of too many dunkers that can adjust while in the air. He'd be up in the air and shift his body to an angle entirely while cocking the ball back. Again, this is while in the air, not before takeoff or during takeoff. He'd jump up and switch hands (which isn't so rare) but also move the ball away from defenders at the same time. I've seen people do both of those, but I can't think of too many instances in which people have done these things at the same time. At least not as often as he has.

He's shifted his body and pumped the ball while in the air to avoid double teams. Re-read... to avoid double teams while in the air.

He's been hit while in the air so his body shifts, yet he still pumps the ball with one hand and dunks it.

Maybe somebody will post a gif or link of somebody doing that once or twice, but not as many as MJ and not with the combinations of actions that I posted. Closest I think of right now is Blake Griffin with some of the stuff.[/QUOTE]I think it depends upon exactly what you're talking about here. For instance, Dominique Wilkins used to shift his body and bring the ball down near his waist upon contact at the rim on a pretty regular basis as well. His flush over Lanier is the one that tends to linger most heavily, but it was relatively habitual.

The Lanier Dunk: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIDpHIJvX8[/url]

Wilkins' Top 100 (Great watch regardless of discussion): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34[/url]

Vince Carter also had a solid ability to react late, after he'd already taken off. Here's a mediocre one around Boris Diaw: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv63I0kCrFw[/url]

If we're talking about Jordan's palming ability and how he'd shift the rock that way, then yeah, he'll be unique and in rare company (alongside Julius Erving in that regard) as they're two of the few who could hold the ball in such a manner.

[QUOTE=andgar923]One more thing...

Some of MJ's dunks didn't look as ferocious because the rims didn't give as much as they do today.

The spring support system that's included in today's rims (thanks to Shaq) gives more, so the bending of the rim gives the illusion of the dunk being more powerful.[/QUOTE]Actually, not to be contrarian, but I believe a lot of Jordan's dunks didn't look as ferocious because of the aforementioned palming ability of his. On dunks where he palms from the get-go and more or less Statue of Liberty's, the hand-rim interaction is going to be a little bit weaker versus the time where he winds up or cocks back. Super palm dunks end up being more of a wrist-flick and hand throw whereas non-palms tend to introduce an entire arm motion.

I can rarely palm a basketball but when I can, dunking becomes 10 times easier and thus quite a bit more frequent. However, the trade off is my palm dunks look much weaker, since they feel more like I'm just rising my hand up and plopping it in. When I can't palm, my dunks must be full body motions, more or less.

Moreover, breakaway rims have been in place in the NBA since around 1981. And until '94ish, teams did not all have the same support systems (they just had to meet certain standards - like being breakaway). So some rims actually broke away easier back then (New Jersey comes to mind - and I'm talking about the rim bending as needed, not literally breaking, which New Jersey's was also good at). Most broke away very similarly to today's rims with the Clippers sometimes being a rare exception (look at the rim on the last two LaPhonso jams: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nklwby0JDic[/url])

[QUOTE=mehyaM24][IMG]http://www.tuxboard.com/photos/2013/03/LeBron-James-Dunk-Jason-Terry.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyo4paS2bY1qkz2y2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LeBron-James-Dunk-Over-Damon-Jones.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/heat/images/131220-jamesdunk.gif[/IMG]

lebron's chest dunks are GOAT, but look at his best posters. the dunk over john lucas = FEAR[/QUOTE]

Why does this dude keep posting gifs of Bron running to the basket unimpeded and dunking on Midgets? :confusedshrug:

Lucas is 5'11" for ****ssake :facepalm

[QUOTE=3ball]The shifts in the number of dunks from year to year are too significant for athleticism or prevalence to be the cause - and the stat shifts the wrong way, like it did in between 1999 and 2001, when dunks went back down to earlier levels..

The decline of dunks between 1999 and 2001 shows that we don't have enough data yet - it's possible that it works in cycles where defenses catch up to offensive strategy or vice versa over a period of time, and this could be affecting the dunking frequency - that would explain why dunks went back down between 1999 and 2001... dunking appears to be creeping back down now as well, as it did pretty materially in 2010 too.

I think the NBA would agree that dunking frequency each year is mostly a factor of rule changes and style of play, since they have changed the rules over the years specifically so there would be less physicality and more dunks.
-[/QUOTE]
Entirely possible, and maybe even likely. I just need to watch more tape from 87-88 through 91-92 since I wasn't watching live then, and look closely at the defense played.

Regarding 99, 00, 01, it could just be noise in the data. Or it could be something more meaningful.

Just note that I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think that this is amazing new information we have, and we need to be very thorough in doing our due-diligence here.

Something that might be interesting is maybe comparing players' dunks by positions, and seeing if over time, there were big changes in wings vs bigs, etc.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]I think it depends upon exactly what you're talking about here. For instance, Dominique Wilkins used to shift his body and bring the ball down near his waist upon contact at the rim on a pretty regular basis as well. His flush over Lanier is the one that tends to linger most heavily, but it was relatively habitual.

The Lanier Dunk: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIDpHIJvX8[/url]

Wilkins' Top 100 (Great watch regardless of discussion): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34[/url]

Vince Carter also had a solid ability to react late, after he'd already taken off. Here's a mediocre one around Boris Diaw: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv63I0kCrFw[/url]

If we're talking about Jordan's palming ability and how he'd shift the rock that way, then yeah, he'll be unique and in rare company (alongside Julius Erving in that regard) as they're two of the few who could hold the ball in such a manner.[/QUOTE]

By shifting his body I mistyped.

What I meant to say was he changed trajectory while in the air. So if he was going in a straight line, all of a sudden his entire body moved to the side, not just a portion like the Nique vids.

I've seen a handful of players do that here and there, yet not as often as MJ. My fav example that best illustrates that is the dunk vs the Pistons (it's in the link I posted somewhere). He jumps up with his body going one way, and as the Pistons' entire front court jump to block him (well... almost entire front court), he shifts his body to the side slightly. Not just his upper body, but entire body turns into an angle. He pumps the ball in the air and dunks it.

Naturally, that hasn't been the only time he's done something like that.

As I said before, big men are afraid to jump with lebron. Dude strikes fear into their hearts like no other:oldlol: These same players with jump with Durant, Kobe,George but move out of the way with lebron:biggums:

Also, as I said before, Lebron has many dunks similar to the Jordan gifs posted in here if you look back at some of his older cavs footage from like his first 5 years. Lebron used to do more of those 1 handed palming the ball/Jordan-Dr J type dunks back then.


here goes lebron in traffic from the baseline with a more Dominque style dunk. Look at the raw athleticism and power in that play:eek: :eek:


[b]Lebron James MONSTER Dunk On the Mavericks 03-01-2007 [/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqD-JoDgKao&hd=1[/url]

[QUOTE=andgar923]By shifting his body I mistyped.

What I meant to say was he changed trajectory while in the air. So if he was going in a straight line, all of a sudden his entire body moved to the side, not just a portion like the Nique vids.

I've seen a handful of players do that here and there, yet not as often as MJ. My fav example that best illustrates that is the dunk vs the Pistons (it's in the link I posted somewhere). He jumps up with his body going one way, and as the Pistons' entire front court jump to block him (well... almost entire front court), he shifts his body to the side slightly. Not just his upper body, but entire body turns into an angle. He pumps the ball in the air and dunks it.

Naturally, that hasn't been the only time he's done something like that.[/QUOTE]Not to sound lazy (though it'll undoubtedly sound lazy) but can you reference the exact point in your links at which that occurs? I'd like to get a grasp on exactly what you are referring.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]I think it depends upon exactly what you're talking about here. For instance, Dominique Wilkins used to shift his body and bring the ball down near his waist upon contact at the rim on a pretty regular basis as well. His flush over Lanier is the one that tends to linger most heavily, but it was relatively habitual.

The Lanier Dunk: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIDpHIJvX8[/url]

Wilkins' Top 100 (Great watch regardless of discussion): [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34[/url]

Vince Carter also had a solid ability to react late, after he'd already taken off. Here's a mediocre one around Boris Diaw: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv63I0kCrFw[/url]

If we're talking about Jordan's palming ability and how he'd shift the rock that way, then yeah, he'll be unique and in rare company (alongside Julius Erving in that regard) as they're two of the few who could hold the ball in such a manner.

Actually, not to be contrarian, but I believe a lot of Jordan's dunks didn't look as ferocious because of the aforementioned palming ability of his. On dunks where he palms from the get-go and more or less Statue of Liberty's, the hand-rim interaction is going to be a little bit weaker versus the time where he winds up or cocks back. Super palm dunks end up being more of a wrist-flick and hand throw whereas non-palms tend to introduce an entire arm motion.

I can rarely palm a basketball but when I can, dunking becomes 10 times easier and thus quite a bit more frequent. However, the trade off is my palm dunks look much weaker, since they feel more like I'm just rising my hand up and plopping it in. When I can't palm, my dunks must be full body motions, more or less.

Moreover, breakaway rims have been in place in the NBA since around 1981. And until '94ish, teams did not all have the same support systems (they just had to meet certain standards - like being breakaway). So some rims actually broke away easier back then (New Jersey comes to mind - and I'm talking about the rim bending as needed, not literally breaking, which New Jersey's was also good at). Most broke away very similarly to today's rims with the Clippers sometimes being a rare exception (look at the rim on the last two LaPhonso jams: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nklwby0JDic[/url])[/QUOTE]

If you look at some of MJ's early dunks, he'd have the entire backboard shaking and the rim barely bends (at least compared to today's).

The give on the rims changed with Shaq.

So sure, there may have been breakaway rims but they changed the amount of give of threshold they gave, all thanks to Shaq.

Again... go watch some old footage, you'll see the ball bounce hard off the floor due to the power of the slam, you'll see the backboard shake.... but the rims didn't bend as much as today. Compare MJ's early dunks to some of his mid 90 dunks and you'll see how the rims bend more.

lol i've posted numerous poster dunks on kg, duncan, and ibaka. i just find these more aesthetic because lebron is literally clearing these players' torsos. ****ing insane.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]Not to sound lazy (though it'll undoubtedly sound lazy) but can you reference the exact point in your links at which that occurs? I'd like to get a grasp on exactly what you are referring.[/QUOTE]

Gotta go make breakfast :lol :lol

I'll try to do so later on if I have time. But there's at least 4 examples in that link.

You lost me at "Dunking Data" Somebody had the time to sit and watch every NBA player and count their counts? Wow :facepalm

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Those are some pretty impressive dunks by LeBron, though. [b]One thing I notice about his posters is that they're very Shaq-like.

Sheer power bulldozing anything in sight.[/b]

[/QUOTE]

Example below:oldlol:


[b]Lebron James With The And1 Breakaway Dunk[/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1mAMTh4Pw&hd=1[/url]

straight trucked:lol

[QUOTE=andgar923]If you look at some of MJ's early dunks, he'd have the entire backboard shaking and the rim barely bends (at least compared to today's).

The give on the rims changed with Shaq.

So sure, there may have been breakaway rims but they changed the amount of give of threshold they gave, all thanks to Shaq.

Again... go watch some old footage, you'll see the ball bounce hard off the floor due to the power of the slam, you'll see the backboard shake.... but the rims didn't bend as much as today. Compare MJ's early dunks to some of his mid 90 dunks and you'll see how the rims bend more.[/QUOTE]I suppose I'd have to see some specific references of exactly which clips you're referring, for if you let me pick them out myself, they might not be what you're talking about (similar to my Nique and VC interpretation above).

I still generally maintain that a lot of Jordan's dunks could go through the rim hard due to his wrist flick but the rims may not bend as much on his jams because it's a wrist action more than a full arm endeavor, not to mention he often did not grab or pull the rim, even briefly.

For comparison, here are some Dominique Wilkins clips from the same era. Wilkins was a guy who I did not often see palm the ball on his dunks (if he ever did). His dunks were thus usually full arm explosions with slight pulls or grabs. They were dirty: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lexzZxi34#t=8m45s[/url]

For Jordan, I think his Top Ten Dunks video serves as a good comparison piece: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79MQ4_r7QZM[/url]

At the 1:11 mark, Jordan executes something that was pretty rare for him - a one-hand dunk off two-feet with an extended rim hang. This leads to the rim breaking away and staying that way. His two foot takeoffs often led to more of an arm explosion versus his one-footed Statue of Liberty's.

His dunk at 2:10 is a standard Jordan Statue example. It's a good dunk, and it's 1997, but it's one where the arm rises and sits up there with the ball in his palm, then he flicks it down. The ball can go through quickly, but the arm-rim interaction is most often not violent.

A better example may be at 2:28, on the same rims Dominique punished throughout the 80's. Great dunk, powerful dunk, but it's mostly a wrist flick as opposed to being a full arm endeavor, so the rim doesn't respond in quite the same way as it did on countless Wilkins dunks throughout his time there.

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]Example below:oldlol:


[b]Lebron James With The And1 Breakaway Dunk[/b]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1mAMTh4Pw&hd=1[/url]

straight trucked:lol[/QUOTE]

wipe that cvm off your eyes then watch it again.

Surprised I haven't seen these two yet..

On Orlando Woolridge

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFlljgbC7Tc[/url]


There was a dunk in the 91 finals where he went chest to chest and dunked on Sam perkins. Someone post it if you have it.

Lebron is a 1 foot leaper. MJ could posterize you off one and two feet. MJ could dunk on you off two feet from further out compared to lebron. Both are explosive, but MJ has dunked on far more players.

So the 94-95, 95-96, 96-97 guides just arrived. 94-95 is great, and contains not only dunks data, but complete +/- for every player in the league (for the 93-94 season)! Unfortunately, 95-96 and 96-97 are completely useless, and contain neither.

Evidently, the guide was getting too big, so at some point they just split it up into two books...the Sixers Media Guide, and the Harvey Pollack Statistical Yearbook:

[url]http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2050[/url]

Anyhow though, I'm still waiting on the 92-93 guide since we need those dunks. I'll try and track down the two Pollack guides.

Here are the links:

Dunks: [url]http://www17.zippyshare.com/v/95748527/file.html[/url]
+/-: [url]http://www17.zippyshare.com/v/35053325/file.html[/url]
+/- (continued): [url]http://www17.zippyshare.com/v/42451533/file.html[/url]

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Every one of these where he starts from a standstill is a travel....dude moves both feet before dropping the ball for the dribble.[/QUOTE]
Always an excuse. Its just so hard for folks to accept the fact that MJ is GOAT. Even when facts are presented to you in detailed fashion.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Perkins_5e9173876f441a2f4792c5b13bc0812b.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Barkely_on_fast_br_c3dfbe23d6b93ccf82b104da160c1690.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Dunks_Hard_over_Salley_10586c8236229052da9aad8f3f64ac33.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_goat_skill_with_th_49b2a4037f09108b778ba633988021f0.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Orlando_Woolridge_2992ff3b66bec8217afc9045864e3b42.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4326926aba3e77b963419d1eb1516f9a.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Defender_off_42e80f0371b2ccd1311addc612220fdc.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Was_He_Big_Enough_better_29c4ab60a4496f026917728bf4c05268.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/22e381b1ceff69a962cd9f235860fab2.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d6de618b81d74a092b4159e118cad7b6.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=fpliii]Entirely possible, and maybe even likely. I just need to watch more tape from 87-88 through 91-92 since I wasn't watching live then, and look closely at the defense played.

Regarding 99, 00, 01, it could just be noise in the data. Or it could be something more meaningful.

Just note that I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think that this is amazing new information we have, and we need to be very thorough in doing our due-diligence here.

Something that might be interesting is maybe comparing players' dunks by positions, and seeing if over time, there were big changes in wings vs bigs, etc.[/QUOTE]
A couple things... So the first reason you offer for the significant decline in dunks between 1999 and 2001 is that it's "noise in the numbers"??... If you really want to do a thorough analysis, this should probably not be the knee-jerk reaction.. The data from 1999 to 2001 is not a small sample, so for it to be noise in the numbers is literally impossible.. It's like flipping a coin 10,000 times, having it come up heads 65% of the time, and chalking it up to "noise in the data".

What about the decline of dunks in 2010 (4th largest shift in the FGA/Dunk stat)?.. Is that noise in the numbers too?

Also, you say you want to analyze the defense to see if it was weaker... I think that is a waste of time and demonstrates a lack of awareness tbh... The ease of scoring, or how hard it is to score on a defense, remains relatively constant over time, [I]and the stats back this up[/I].

It's intuitive why the stats support a relatively constant level of defense over the years - the onset of floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds put today's defense at a significant disadvantage to the defenses of previous eras, so today's defenses had to develop extra scheming [I]just to maintain[/I].

Defenses with extra scheming to guard 3-pointers and defensive 3 seconds = Defenses with no extra scheming but don't have to guard 3-pointers and get to camp in the paint... [I]The stats support this intuitive notion[/I].

The above statement is true and if it isn't understood, then all predictions, analysis and anything else relying on or related to it's understanding will fall short.

[QUOTE=3ball]A couple things... So the first reason you offer for the significant decline in dunks between 1999 and 2001 is that it's "noise in the numbers"??... If you really want to do a thorough analysis, this should probably not be the knee-jerk reaction.. [B]The data from 1999 to 2001 is not a small sample, so for it to be noise in the numbers is literally impossible[/B].. It's like flipping a coin 10,000 times, having it come up heads 65% of the time, and chalking it up to "noise in the data".

What about the decline of dunks in 2010 (4th largest shift in the FGA/Dunk stat)?.. Is that noise in the numbers too?

[B]Also, you say you want to analyze the defense to see if it was weaker... I think that is a waste of time and demonstrates a lack of awareness tbh[/B]... The ease of scoring, or how hard it is to score on a defense, remains relatively constant over time, [I]and the stats back this up[/I].

[B]It's intuitive why the stats support a relatively constant level of defense over the years - the onset of floor-spacing and defensive 3 seconds put today's defense at a significant disadvantage to the defenses of previous eras, so today's defenses had to develop extra scheming [I]just to maintain[/I].

Defenses with extra scheming to guard 3-pointers and defensive 3 seconds = Defenses with no extra scheming but don't have to guard 3-pointers and get to camp in the paint... The stats support this intuitive notion.[/B]

The above statement is true and if it isn't understood, then all predictions, analysis and anything else relying on or related to it's understanding will fall short.[/QUOTE]
1) It's not "literally impossible". Unless a sample is infinitely large, noise in the data is always a plausible explanation. Until we can extrapolate trends using analysis, we can not rule it out.

2) Why is trying to be absolutely certain a "waste of time" and how does it demonstrate a "lack of awareness"? Again, until we do exhaustive analysis, we cannot say anything definitively.

3) Intuition is fine, but again...we're not dealing in maybes, probablys, or anything else here. If we want to prove something, we have to be rigorous and exhaustive in our investigation and analysis.

We have this data, which is a great start for analysis. Now, we have to begin trying to explain why what happened, did indeed happen. There is absolutely no hurry whatsoever, it's more important to be definitely correct after doing more legwork than possibly correct without doing so. We have a ton of new information, so now we can use it carefully in our research.