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[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]40-43 PPG on 46% FG on a bad team 30-35 PPG on 49% FG on a good team.
Barkley (located 2nd in that shot chart after MJ) would also feast on this weak as defensive league. Older rules allowed way more contact.[/B][/QUOTE]
They don't treat the rules the same though...they let the big boys get away with a lot more when they are defending each other than they let perimeters get away with.
[QUOTE=theoneneo]Haha a prime Kobe would just about destroy this weak ass era and ya'll doubting Jordan :lol
Take the little run Westbrook had last season and realize Jordan was twice the player he was.[/QUOTE]
Kobe was in his prime/peak like 7 years ago. The [COLOR="Black"]f[/COLOR]uck you talking about?
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]"several times worse than MJ"
maybe if you're talking about the full package (D)
But Harden's greatest strength is his ability to shoot 3's off the bounce, and his great floor vision. This guarantees him 1-on-1's with a defender that has to guard him at the 3 point line. He's absolutely built for this era.
Mid range and post game didn't go anywhere.....but if MJ is getting most of his points from those area's, his team is going to be playing at a pretty slow pace. No 40ppg season.[/QUOTE]
It's fair to assume MJ would tailor certain aspects of his game, like 3point shooting, to adjust to this era. Even if he didn't, after 1990 or so there wasn't anything wrong with his 3point shooting. It wasn't a strength in terms of volume and efficiency, but you couldn't just leave him open at the 3pt line. As it is, there are two recent examples of scoring champions in Wade and Westbrook who were primarily slashers with streaky mid-range( pretty much all of Wade's best seasons were when his mid-range game was on). There is no reason to think with MJ's complete scoring set that he'd be any worse. His mid-range would still be elite, his post-game would be elite, his slashing, quickness at his size would still be elite. His off-ball, catch and shoot ability and quick reactions to double teams would counter modern defensive schemes.
Would he average 40 or close to it? Under certain considerations, like playing for a shit team, sure. Durant, prime Kobe, MJ all had the complete scoring arsenals to score at that level depending on the situation.
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]
[B][SIZE="3"]As it is, there are two recent examples of scoring champions in Wade and Westbrook who were primarily slashers[/SIZE][/B]
[/QUOTE]
Wade and Westbrook were scoring champs in 2009 and 2015, even though they suck at 3-pointers... Also, their midrange is far worse than MJ's, and their overall athleticism doesn't compare either.
Wade and Westbrook's league-leading scoring is all we need to know MJ would lead the league in scoring every year, just like he did in his era.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Seems like alot of people here forget 2nd 3peat was really an entirely different player.[/QUOTE]
Ummm, not really. 2nd 3peat MJ still retained 85-90% of his game-athleticism, IMO. And with hand checking banned starting 94-95, you barely even notice that difference. In some ways, he was blowing past guys with even more ease and really, playing the same game he played in the early 90's, except he became even more efficient in using the triangle to his benefit. MJ actually has a higher usg% during the 2nd 3peat than first and really, if you watch both versions, he is generating shots with more ease and is a more dominant feature in the Bulls offense from 96-98. In a 2013 interview with NBA2K, he considered 1996 to be his peak and I can actually see where he's coming from.
I think impact wise, MJ would be the same player today. Stylistically, you'd definitely see more 3pters and more pick n roll from him. His primary means of attacking in his career was from the triple-threat on either wing. But with no more illegal defense, it's just a lot harder to isolate players today and give 'em a straight-line path to the basket. Teams are always overloading the strong side/shading against wings today. So I see his game including more action from the top of the key, which is how most perimeter players play today. What would work to his benefit, of course, is the complete lack of physicality. Hand checking was already banned in 1995, and the NBA has systematically eliminated all physicality on the perimeter between the 10-year period since(95-2005). His quickness would be a complete nightmare to deal with.
[QUOTE=3ball]Wade and Westbrook were scoring champs in 2009 and 2015, even though they suck at 3-pointers... Also, their midrange is far worse than MJ's, and their overall athleticism doesn't compare either.
Wade and Westbrook's league-leading scoring is all we need to know MJ would lead the league in scoring every year, just like he did in his era.[/QUOTE]
But they didn't get anywhere close to 40:facepalm You're arguing against assertions that no one has made. Everyone in this thread thinks he would be the MVP and lead in scoring. Some of us just don't believe that he'd score at such an insane level.
Last season was weak in terms of the scoring title, because Durant was out and Curry only played 32 MPG. Still, the scoring leader only score 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40 :rolleyes:
I know you know more about MJ than me, actually being an adult (hopefully) while he was in his prime....but I've watched a ton of old MJ games via the internet and NBATV Hardwood Classics, and he's not that much better as a scorer than Durant. He's not going to come into the league and have significantly higher USG% and TS% than Durant.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]But they didn't get anywhere close to 40:facepalm You're arguing against assertions that no one has made. Everyone in this thread thinks he would be the MVP and lead in scoring. Some of us just don't believe that he'd score at such an insane level.
Last season was weak in terms of the scoring title, because Durant was out and Curry only played 32 MPG. Still, the scoring leader only score 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40 :rolleyes:
I know you know more about MJ than me, actually being an adult (hopefully) while he was in his prime....but I've watched a ton of old MJ games via the internet and NBATV Hardwood Classics, and he's not that much better as a scorer than Durant. He's not going to come into the league and have significantly higher USG% and TS% than Durant.[/QUOTE]
Mj wasn't the norm. He won a scoring title in the modern era averging 7 ppg more rhen the next guy. He was the only one averging 30 ppg in 90s except Karl. Mj had a high motor. He was nickname the rabbit for that. He would stay up late before playoff games gambling. He would play golf etc.... Mj had a higher usage % has 33-35years old then his younger days. He was averging 40 mpg.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]But they didn't get anywhere close to 40:facepalm You're arguing against assertions that no one has made. Everyone in this thread thinks he would be the MVP and lead in scoring. Some of us just don't believe that he'd score at such an insane level.
Last season was weak in terms of the scoring title, because Durant was out and Curry only played 32 MPG. Still, the scoring leader only score 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40 :rolleyes:
I know you know more about MJ than me, actually being an adult (hopefully) while he was in his prime....[COLOR="Red"]but I've watched a ton of old MJ games via the internet and NBATV Hardwood Classics[/COLOR], and he's not that much better as a scorer than Durant. He's not going to come into the league and have significantly higher USG% and TS% than Durant.[/QUOTE]
If you didn't watch him live, you can't fully appreciate his greatness. Without watching him live, you couldn't truly appreciate the drive and will he had and how badly he wanted to destroy opponents. Not to mention, he probably had the best stamina of any player. So he was just relentless for 82 games and the playoffs.
The guy won 10 scoring titles in his 11 [U]full[/U] seasons with the Bulls. The only time not winning it his rookie season and he averaged 28.2 ppg. The guy was simply on a different level above everyone else as a player and scorer.
In this era, where the rules are tailor made for athletic, wing players, the guy would've had a good shot at averaging 40 ppg on a [U]bad team[/U]. He averaged 37.1 ppg in a tougher era for wing players. I don't see why he couldn't go up 3 more points, especially given the emphasis on the 3 today, which would help his point totals go up quickly.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
MJ isn't that much better as a scorer than Durant.. Durant averaged 32 ppg in 2014 and MJ can't do much better than that.
[/QUOTE]
Durant averaged 32 ppg on a GOOD TEAM where he had to share shots, so he only got 20 shots per game.
Otoh, when MJ averaged 37 ppg, his team was horrible, which helped him shoot 28 times per game... On a horrible team in today's game where he didn't have to share shots like Durant, I see no reason why MJ couldn't average 37 ppg again, or more... Quite frankly, today's spacing would help him get shots off even easier and faster than he did in 1987.
Btw, MJ is a superior scorer to Durant because he's a FAR superior shot-maker at the rim - it's not close - he can overpower in the paint and at the rim, whereas Durant can't.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
Westbrook was the scoring leader at only 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40
[/QUOTE]
[b]As for Westbrook... :facepalm ... He averaged 28 ppg as a HORRIFIC shooter:[/b]
[COLOR="Blue"]0-3 feet: 58%[/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]In 1992, MJ shot [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]74% at the rim[/url][/INDENT][/I]
[COLOR="Blue"]3-10 feet: 31% [/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]In 1992, MJ shot [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]51.1% from midrange overall[/url].. In 1997, MJ's 5-9 ft percentage [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]was 49%[/url][/INDENT][/I]
[COLOR="Blue"]10-16 feet: 40%[/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, MJ's 10-14 foot percentage [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]was 52%[/url])[/INDENT][/I]
[COLOR="Blue"]16-23 feet: 36%[/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, Jordan's 15-19 ft percentage was 50%, and 40% from 20-24 ft)[/INDENT][/I]
[I]Furthermore - you're not acknowledging that MJ was a 6'6" Westbrook - he got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks per year - Westbrook gets about 50 dunks a year, while MJ got 150 per year - this is [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399]statistical fact[/url].. It's not remotely close between the two.. Can Westbrook do [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4]any of these plays[/url]??... Oh hell no.[/I]
.
[QUOTE=3ball]Durant averaged 32 ppg on a GOOD TEAM where he had to share shots, so he only got 20 shots per game.
Otoh, when MJ averaged 37 ppg, his team was horrible, which helped him shoot 28 times per game... On a horrible team in today's game where he didn't have to share shots like Durant, I see no reason why MJ couldn't average 37 ppg again, or more... Quite frankly, today's spacing would help him get shots off even easier and faster than he did in 1987.
Btw, MJ is a superior scorer to Durant because he's a FAR superior shot-maker at the rim - it's not close - he can overpower in the paint and at the rim, whereas Durant can't.
[b]As for Westbrook... :facepalm ... He averaged 28 ppg as a HORRIFIC shooter:[/b]
[COLOR="Blue"]0-3 feet: 58%[/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]In 1992, MJ shot [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]74% at the rim[/url][/INDENT][/I]
[COLOR="Blue"]3-10 feet: 31% [/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]In 1992, MJ shot [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]51.1% from midrange overall[/url].. In 1997, MJ's 5-9 ft percentage [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]was 49%[/url][/INDENT][/I]
[COLOR="Blue"]10-16 feet: 40%[/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, MJ's 10-14 foot percentage [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]was 52%[/url])[/INDENT][/I]
[COLOR="Blue"]16-23 feet: 36%[/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, Jordan's 15-19 ft percentage was 50%, and 40% from 20-24 ft)[/INDENT][/I]
[I]Furthermore - you're not acknowledging that MJ was a 6'6" Westbrook - he got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks per year - Westbrook gets about 50 dunks a year, while MJ got 150 per year - this is [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399]statistical fact[/url].. It's not remotely close between the two.. Can Westbrook do [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4]any of these plays[/url]??... **** no.[/I][/QUOTE]
I mean, what are we arguing?
him averaging 42ppg doesent make that hypothetical season better than his 91 season.
also, while I agree MJ is a better scorer, IIRC Durant shot 80% at the rim, which is higher than Shaq and Lebron (though in less volume)
MJ's 3-10 feet percentage is VERY impressive though.
[QUOTE=3ball]Durant averaged 32 ppg on a GOOD TEAM where he had to share shots, so he only got 20 shots per game.
Otoh, when MJ averaged 37 ppg, his team was horrible, which helped him shoot 28 times per game... On a horrible team in today's game where he didn't have to share shots like Durant, I see no reason why MJ couldn't average 37 ppg again, or more... Quite frankly, today's spacing would help him get shots off even easier and faster than he did in 1987.
Btw, MJ is a superior scorer to Durant because he's a FAR superior shot-maker at the rim - it's not close - he can overpower in the paint and at the rim, whereas Durant can't.
[b]As for Westbrook... :facepalm ... He averaged 28 ppg as a HORRIFIC shooter:[/b]
[COLOR="Blue"]0-3 feet: 58%[/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]In 1992, MJ shot [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]74% at the rim[/url][/INDENT][/I]
[COLOR="Blue"]3-10 feet: 31% [/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]In 1992, MJ shot [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950]51.1% from midrange overall[/url].. In 1997, MJ's 5-9 ft percentage [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]was 49%[/url][/INDENT][/I]
[COLOR="Blue"]10-16 feet: 40%[/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, MJ's 10-14 foot percentage [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]was 52%[/url])[/INDENT][/I]
[COLOR="Blue"]16-23 feet: 36%[/COLOR]
[I][INDENT]Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, Jordan's 15-19 ft percentage was 50%, and 40% from 20-24 ft)[/INDENT][/I]
[I]Furthermore - you're not acknowledging that MJ was a 6'6" Westbrook - he got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks per year - Westbrook gets about 50 dunks a year, while MJ got 150 per year - this is [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399]statistical fact[/url].. It's not remotely close between the two.. Can Westbrook do [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4]any of these plays[/url]??... **** no.[/I][/QUOTE]
I mean, what are we arguing?
him averaging 42ppg doesent make that hypothetical season better than his 91 season.
also, while I agree MJ is a better scorer, IIRC Durant shot 80% at the rim, which is higher than Shaq and Lebron (though in less volume)
MJ's 3-10 feet percentage is VERY impressive though.
in terms of pure ability, most talented bball player of all time.
Lebron, Shaq, and Wilt come close due to athleticism,
but Jordan is still, imo, impact wise (personally, I consider raw stats and volume scoring to be pure shite if it doesent help the team that much, nudge nudge Kobe) comfortably number 1.
[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]
also, while I agree MJ is a better scorer, IIRC Durant shot 80% at the rim, which is higher than Shaq and Lebron (though in less volume)
[/QUOTE]
Are you saying Durant finishes better at the rim than MJ?.. Can Durant overpower defenders in the paint like this?
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaYccWpdZ4[/url]
:confusedshrug:
Or this:
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/zU1xdh.gif[/url]
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-25-2015/sKMzUP.gif[/url]
Durant can't overpower defenders like that.. And when does Durant ever need to take shots like these below?
[url]http://i.imgur.com/yjM3Sgo.gif[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36YZvyvPL0I&t=7m14s[/url]
Never, because 3-point shooting draws defenders to the perimeter and leaves the paint open... In today's game, shots like the one above are considered bad shots because the spacing allows ball movement to generate better shots.. You'll never see Durant take shots like these, because the available spacing means he doesn't have to.
.
[QUOTE=3ball]Are you saying Durant finishes better at the rim than MJ?.. Can Durant overpower defenders in the paint like this?
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaYccWpdZ4[/url]
:confusedshrug:
Or this:
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/zU1xdh.gif[/url]
[url]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-25-2015/sKMzUP.gif[/url]
Durant can't overpower defenders like that.. And when does Durant ever need to take shots like these below?
[url]http://i.imgur.com/yjM3Sgo.gif[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36YZvyvPL0I&t=7m14s[/url]
Never, because 3-point shooting draws defenders to the perimeter and leaves the paint open... In today's game, shots like the one above are considered bad shots because the spacing allows ball movement to generate better shots.. You'll never see Durant take shots like these, because the available spacing means he doesn't have to.
.[/QUOTE]
No, im not saying that. I said that volume means that MJ's is more impressive/effecient
Also, why didnt you post this video?
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_RLjmI6fK4[/url]
[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]
No, im not saying that. I said that volume means that MJ's is more impressive/effecient
Also, why didnt you post this video?
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_RLjmI6fK4[/url]
[/QUOTE]
That's a great vid... The "total reverse" vid is pretty good too (all reverse layups):
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vBc395dSg4[/url]
Box score watchers again:facepalm
About percentage at the rim.
MJ got to the rim a lot more than Durant, A LOT more. And he was able to finish at the rim from much more difficult positions.
Durant shoots many more jumpers and rarely goes to the rim. You have to look at these numbers in context. For a guy who drove as much as MJ, he has staggering percentages. Keep in mind this isn't Lebron fastbreaks, but half court, reverse layups, up and unders, twisting and turning AND in your face slams.
MJ is in another tier from Durant when it comes to finishing at the rim. The numbers mean NOTHING without CONTEXT.
[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]We all saw MJ get carried to multiple rings in the weak era of the 90's...
They almost won the ship without him. :oldlol:
MJ was just a chucker on a stacked team. Albeit, a very good chucker...
A lot better than Kobe but not quite the overall player LeBron is, or the all-around scorer that KD is.
He'd likely be third best player in todays game. There's no shame in that.[/QUOTE]
nt man. it was a nice try but it doesn't look like anyone took the bait this time.
Its not like Jordan's 3 point shot was a weakness. Just wasn't a huge strength. Not including the shortened line years, he always averaged around 1 attempt per game, except for 90 and 93 when he shot around 3 per game. Not coincidentally, he shot 38% and 35% in those years. Those are good 3P shooting numbers. The other years he didn't shoot that well from 3. However, its obvious that he was a rhythm shooter, and when he did shoot more of them, he was better at it. On top of that, he would get to take advantage of more spacing in today's games, meaning less clogged lanes, and he would shoot at least 10 FTs per game, which wasn't the norm for him back then. He had a couple of seasons like that, but it was most around 7-8 per game. IMO, he'd probably be better offensively, maybe not as good defensively cause he can't be as physical, but still all-time great. I don't think his stats are really that different.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]But they didn't get anywhere close to 40:facepalm You're arguing against assertions that no one has made. Everyone in this thread thinks he would be the MVP and lead in scoring. Some of us just don't believe that he'd score at such an insane level.
Last season was weak in terms of the scoring title, because Durant was out and Curry only played 32 MPG. Still, the scoring leader only score 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40 :rolleyes:
I know you know more about MJ than me, actually being an adult (hopefully) while he was in his prime....but I've watched a ton of old MJ games via the internet and NBATV Hardwood Classics, and he's not that much better as a scorer than Durant. He's not going to come into the league and have significantly higher USG% and TS% than Durant.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but it could swing the other way. MJ would simply abuse people in the half court and wing post. Given how important the 3 has become...teams might guard Jordan more the way the Warriors guarded Lebron in the finals.
If they did that....he'd average about 40.
If they doubled? He wouldn't score as much, but his team would get wide open 3's all night.
Whether he'd score 40 a game is an interesting discussion, but I think he'd be an even better player today because of the amount of space he'd have given the evolution of the game with the 3 point line.
Let MJ go to work? He'll kill you and foul your team out.
Double him and shade him all game? His team will get wide open 3's all night.
His team would be impossible to stop with a decent supporting cast.