Jordan's help. Wow.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Four questions...

[B]1. Who was more at a disadvantage, the 83 Lakers against the Sixers or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls?[/B] ([url]http://articles.latimes.com/1987-06-06/sports/sp-4964_1_pat-riley[/url])

[I]Item: Laker forward James Worthy, in the last week of the regular season in '83, broke his left shinbone and missed the playoffs.

Item: Laker guard Norm Nixon separated his left shoulder in the first game of the finals.

Item: Laker forward Bob McAdoo tore a hamstring in the sixth and deciding game of the Western Conference championship series against San Antonio and was severely handicapped by it in the finals.[/I]


[B]2. Who was more at a disadvantage, the 87 Celtics against the Lakers or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls?[/B] ([url]http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/2011/06/09/the-guts-and-spirit-of-the-1987-celtics/[/url])

[I]The Celtics were entering this decisive point of the season beat up. Bill Walton, whose play backing up Robert Parish had been so vital to the

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]:roll: :roll: :roll:

Let's recap shall we?

'88 Regular season: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%
'Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%

HUGE DECLINE.

'89 Regular season: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%
'89 Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 29,7 ppg on a .460 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'90 Regular season: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%
'90 Post-season against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'91 Regular season: 31.5 ppg on a .535 FG%
'91 post-season against the crumbling Bad Boys: 29.8 ppg on a .535 FG%

A SLIGHT DECLINE.

A DECLINE in EVERY SEASON against the Bad Boys.

Now, if you are claiming that the Bad Boys were a great team, with a great defense, true. BUT, welcome to Wilt's world.[/QUOTE]

I wish we had a "shifting goalposts" icon. You just argue just to argue.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]I wish we had a "shifting goalposts" icon. You just argue just to argue.[/QUOTE]

My original post, which you laughably took exception to:

[QUOTE]Jordan's numbers dropped CONSIDERABLY against the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And were a slight decline against a shell of what they had been in '91.[/QUOTE]

And my point:

[QUOTE]Let's recap shall we?

'88 Regular season: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%
'Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%

HUGE DECLINE.

'89 Regular season: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%
'89 Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 29,7 ppg on a .460 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'90 Regular season: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%
'90 Post-season against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'91 Regular season: 31.5 ppg on a .535 FG%
'91 post-season against the crumbling Bad Boys: 29.8 ppg on a .535 FG%

A SLIGHT DECLINE.

A DECLINE in EVERY SEASON against the Bad Boys.[/QUOTE]

100% CORRECT ASSERTION.

Next...

[QUOTE=juju151111]They were not decline in 91. They made it to the ecf and wasn't no shell. They were in their 20s still. They were injured before the season end and came back. The bulls just got better. They couldn't bully Pippen soft ass anymore. Lol Wilt scoring plummeted and he choked away homecourt advantage. Mj dropped 50 points twice on bad boys and they had to make their rules to stop him. He averged 30 ppg against them in the Postseason[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The NBA ROUTINELY created RULES to prevent Chamberlain's dominance. There is NO comparison to the "rules" that were created to HELP MJ, while the many that were designed to STOP Chamberlain.

And Wilt dropped 50 points THREE TIMES in MUST WIN PLAYOFF games. As well as several games of 40+ against Russell (with must win games of 46 and 50 BTW.) Give me a list of MJ's "must win" 50+ point games.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]My original post, which you laughably took exception to:



And my point:



100% CORRECT ASSERTION.

Next...[/QUOTE]

Nah... I actually gave you more credit than you deserved. I assumed you couldn't possibly be comparing MJ's numbers in a highly intense rivalry seven game playoff series against the best defensive team in the league with his numbers against the field in a long regular season where no one truly cared until at least April. Not even you.

But I was wrong.

[QUOTE=3ball]still waiting.. :pimp:[/QUOTE]


And I'm still waiting on this question that I posted to Laz which he quietly avoided answering:

Question was:

Are you saying that there is a player who played at a higher level than Michael Jordan did in the playoffs over the course of their career?

If so, who?



Btw, 3ball you are killing it with some great points in this thread, good stuff :applause:

Seriously, in Jordan's WHOLE time in Chicago, Rodman was the ONLY very good free agent pickup in 14 years.......That is crazy to think about, and just shows how much MJ was swimming uphill with Krause as GM.............It was done upstream......and back then, that was the total vibe you got from their crap front office......As a fan I remember thinking that they were almost so inept they were conspiring against Jordan to make it as hard as they could for him to win a title.....But his greatness did it, even upstream...

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]And I'm still waiting on this question that I posted to Laz which he quietly avoided answering:

Question was:

Are you saying that there is a player who played at a higher level than Michael Jordan did in the playoffs over the course of their career?

If so, who?



Btw, 3ball you are killing it with some great points in this thread, good stuff :applause:

Seriously, in Jordan's WHOLE time in Chicago, Rodman was the ONLY very good free agent pickup in 14 years.......That is crazy to think about, and just shows how much MJ was swimming uphill with Krause as GM.............It was done upstream......and back then, that was the total vibe you got from their crap front office......As a fan I remember thinking that they were almost so inept they were conspiring against Jordan to make it as hard as they could for him to win a title.....But his greatness did it, even upstream...[/QUOTE]

I could argue Magic, who was one pass away from winning a ring in '84, and an injury in '89 from possibly winning another. The fact that his Lakers didn't lose a beat after KAJ retired (and won a ring DESPITE Kareem's horrific Finals); and dragged a declining and injury-plagued team to a Finals in his last season was also a testament.

There are those who would claim Russell, albeit, not me.

And there is no question in my mind that a prime Chamberlain was the most dominant regular season AND post-season player of all-time. And even John Wooden commented that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters (and coaches), and it likely would have been Chamberlain holding all those rings. And where a Wilt with anywhere from 7-11 rings in his career rank?

The problem with Jordan's "success" is that it came in the watered down 90's, and with the best supporting cast in the league. Where are his signature wins against great teams?

Having said though, he was easily the game's greatest post-season scorer, and aside from '95, his teams won when they should have. And, of course, he was the driving force behind those titles.

Again, I have MJ as a Top-5 GOAT, and I have no problem with those that have him as the GOAT.


But, of course, this topic is not about how great MJ played in the post-season, but rather about just how much help he had.

When he had poor-to-average rosters, he couldn't win. When he had rosters that could win 55+ games and were serious title contenders without him, yes, he won.

30->22->18 guy is not in any contention for being the best playoffs performer of all time. Maybe best in choking but leflop will pass him soon. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Asukal]30->22->18 guy is not in any contention for being the best playoffs performer of all time. Maybe best in choking but leflop will pass him soon. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

A prime Wilt with a 30-27-5-8 and shooting a full 10% above the post-season league average is undeniably the PEAK GOAT playoff performer...especially when 60% of his playoff games came against the greatest defensive force in NBA history.

.
[B][COLOR="Red"]Jordan's shot better than Curry from inside 20 feet:[/COLOR][/B]



[B][COLOR="White"].....................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]MJ 1997[/url][COLOR="White"]...................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Curry 2015[/Url][/B][COLOR="White"]............ [/COLOR][b][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/]Curry 2016[/url][/B] <--- links to data

[B]5-9 ft[/B].......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 52.9%, 34 fga

[B]10-14 ft[/B]....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 52.0%, 25 fga

[B]15-19 ft[/B]....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 40.8%, 49 fga



[b]Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)[/b]

JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2016: 45.3%, 86 fga
LEBRON 2015: 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016: 34.3%, 137 fga

[COLOR="red"][I]
DATA UPDATED AS OF 1/6/16[/I][/COLOR]
.

[QUOTE=3ball]I'm still waiting on this one..

I guess I'll never get an answer... which IS the answer.. :rockon:

MJ carried the largest load of all time.[/QUOTE]

Why should anyone bother? Jordan never played GOAT level defense in any of the bulls championship runs. You are asking people to provide something that your own guy never even did.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]Why should anyone bother? Jordan never played GOAT level defense in any of the bulls championship runs. You are asking people to provide something that your own guy never even did.[/QUOTE]
He did on all his championship runs and this is common knowledge.

Everyone knows MJ is a top 3 perimeter defender of all time.

You're just trying to revise history 25 years after the fact.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]He did on all his championship runs and this is common knowledge.[/B]

[B]Everyone knows MJ is a top 3 perimeter defender of all time.[/B]

You're just trying to revise history 25 years after the fact.[/QUOTE]

When does being a top 3 perimeter defender all time become GOAT level defense?

[QUOTE=Smoke117]When does being a top 3 perimeter defender all time become GOAT level defense?[/QUOTE]
Well just use the top 3 level defense then.

Alright let's put this theory of yours to the test, shall we 3ball? Michael Jordan vs Scottie Pippen in the playoffs during all six champion runs:

91 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 101drating, 3.0 DBPM 1.5 DWS
Pippen - [B]100drating[/B], [B]3.7 DBPM[/B] [B]1.7 DWS[/B]

92 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 104 drating 1.4 DBPM 1.7 DWS
Pippen - [B]102 drating 3.9 DBPM 1.8 DWS[/B]

Anyone else starting to notice a trend?...

93 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 105 drating 1.9 DBPM 1.1 DWS
Pippen - 105 drating [B]2.9 DBPM[/B] 1.1 DWS

96 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 101 Drating 0.0 DBPM 1.3 DWS
Pippen - [B]96 drating 4.2 DBPM 1.7 DWS [/B]

97 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 101 drating 1.9 DBPM [B]1.5 DWS[/B]
Pippen - 101 drating [B]2.2 DBPM[/B] 1.4 DWS

98 Bulls Championship:

Jordan - 103 drating [COLOR="Red"][B]-0.9 DBPM[/B][/COLOR] 1.2 DWS
Pippen - [B]99 drating 3.1 DBPM 1.5 DWS[/B]

I don't think your theory is holding up very well?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I could argue Magic, who was one pass away from winning a ring in '84, and an injury in '89 from possibly winning another.[/QUOTE]

If Thomas doesn't get hurt or the BS foul isn't called Laimbeer the Pistons win the '88 Finals. If the Celtics weren't hurt they potentially win the '87 Finals. It works both ways.

[QUOTE]The problem with Jordan's "success" is that it came in the watered down 90's, and with the best supporting cast in the league. Where are his signature wins against great teams?[/QUOTE]

If the 90s are watered down, what are the 60s? Jordan beat plenty of great teams.

[QUOTE]When he had poor-to-average rosters, he couldn't win. When he had rosters that could win 55+ games and were serious title contenders without him, yes, he won.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

The fact that his Lakers didn't lose a beat after KAJ retired

[/quote]
How many championships did the Lakers win WITHOUT Kareem?

Zero.. How many WITH Kareem - 5

[I]So they were a 5-time champion WITH Kareem, and nothing without.. Those are the historical facts (in b4 you try to change them).[/I]


[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

and dragged a declining and injury-plagued team to a Finals in his last season was also a testament.

[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="3"][I]The 1991 Lakers had better supporting talent than the Bulls:[/I][/SIZE]


[COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][B]Playoff PPG[/B]

[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [U]91' Bulls[/U][COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR] [U]91' Lakers[/U]

Jordan[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 31.1[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Magic[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 21.8

Pippen[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 21.6[COLOR="white"]........[/COLOR] Worthy[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 21.1
Grant[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 13.3[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Perkins[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 17.7
Cartwright[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 9.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Divac[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 13.3
Paxson[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 8.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Scott[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 13.2
Armstrong[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 5.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Green[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.5



[I][SIZE="3"]Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 and top 5 all-time player, but he got destroyed by Jordan in the Finals heads-up:[/SIZE][/I]


[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]JORDAN[/I]: 31.2 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 55.8 fg[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Indigo"][I]MAGIC[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 18.6 ppg.. 8.0 rpg.. 12.4 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 0.0 bpg.. 43.1 fg[/COLOR]


[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

Where are his signature wins against great teams?

[/QUOTE]
Show me where another player DESTROYED a top 5 all-time player and runner up for MVP (Magic) heads-up in the Finals?.. This is especially remarkable considering MJ was Magic's primary defender, while Magic guarded Paxson.

Accordingly, 1991 was a signature win for Jordan - he had a weaker supporting cast, and destroyed a top 5 player heads-up - the stats between MJ and Magic weren't REMOTELY close.

The Bulls also beat the 1992 Blazers, who were more stacked and made the Finals in 1990 as well... The 1992 Blazers were the most athletic and most stacked team in the league - this is common knowledge.

The Bulls also beat the 1993 Suns, who were the most stacked team in recent MEMORY at that time.... Ditto the 1996 Sonics, who had a legit big 3 of perennial all-stars (Payton/Kemp/Schrempf... along with McMillan & Hersey Hawkins, who destroy Paxson, Armstrong)

Then they beat the championship-caliber Knicks, who SNAP-made the Finals each time MJ retired.

Then there's the Utah Jazz.. In 1998 playoffs, they swept Shaq's 4-all-star Lakers, beat Hakeem's Rockets, and destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs... This is the most talent any team has ever defeated to make the Finals.. Yet the Bulls beat them TWICE in 1997 and 1998 (in very close series).

These are all signature wins, in part because the opposing team had a better supporting talent after their #1 option... The reality is that the mere PRESENCE of Jordan makes people think the Bulls were stacked.


[quote=LAZERUSS]

When he had rosters were serious title contenders without him, yes, he won.

[/QUOTE]
The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.
.

[QUOTE=sundizz]1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.

3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.

4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.

5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.

6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%

7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.

And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.

Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?[/QUOTE]

1. You're combining teams. These guys didn't all play together.

2. Horace Grant was good on a good day. Average overall.

3. BJ Armstrong was good on a good day. Average overall.

4. Charles Oakley was good on a good day. Thug overall.

5. Rodman was past his prime by the time he joined Chicago.



.

[QUOTE=3ball]How many championships did the Lakers win WITHOUT Kareem?

Zero.. How many WITH Kareem - 5

[I]So they were a 5-time champion WITH Kareem, and nothing without.. Those are the historical facts (in b4 you try to change them).[/I]



[SIZE="3"][I]The 1991 Lakers had better supporting talent than the Bulls:[/I][/SIZE]


[COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][B]Playoff PPG[/B]

[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [U]91' Bulls[/U][COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR] [U]91' Lakers[/U]

Jordan[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 31.1[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Magic[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 21.8

Pippen[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 21.6[COLOR="white"]........[/COLOR] Worthy[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 21.1
Grant[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 13.3[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Perkins[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 17.7
Cartwright[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 9.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Divac[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 13.3
Paxson[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 8.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Scott[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 13.2
Armstrong[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 5.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Green[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.5



[I][SIZE="3"]Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 and top 5 all-time player, but he got destroyed by Jordan in the Finals heads-up:[/SIZE][/I]


[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]JORDAN[/I]: 31.2 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 55.8 fg[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Indigo"][I]MAGIC[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 18.6 ppg.. 8.0 rpg.. 12.4 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 0.0 bpg.. 43.1 fg[/COLOR]



Show me where another player DESTROYED a top 5 all-time player and runner up for MVP (Magic) heads-up in the Finals?.. This is especially remarkable considering MJ was Magic's primary defender, while Magic guarded Paxson.

Accordingly, 1991 was a signature win for Jordan - he had a weaker supporting cast, and destroyed a top 5 player heads-up - the stats between MJ and Magic weren't REMOTELY close.

The Bulls also beat the 1992 Blazers, who were far more stacked and made the Finals in 1990 as well... The 1992 Blazers were the most athletic and most stacked team in the league - this is common knowledge.

The Bulls also beat the 1993 Suns, who were way more stacked and the most stacked team in recent MEMORY at that time.... Ditto the 1996 Sonics, who had a legit big 3 of perennial all-stars (Payton/Kemp/Schrempf... along with McMillan & Hersey Hawkins, who destroy Paxson, Armstrong)

Then they beat the championship-caliber Knicks, who SNAP-made the Finals each time MJ retired.

Then there's the Utah Jazz.. In 1998, they swept Shaq's 4-all-star Lakers, beat Hakeem's Rockets, and destroyed Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs... This is the most talent any team has ever defeated to make the Finals.. Yet the Bulls beat them TWICE in 1997 and 1998 (in very close series).

All of these are signature wins, in part because the opposing team had a better supporting talent after their #1 option... The reality is that the mere PRESENCE of Jordan makes people think the Bulls were stacked.



The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.[/QUOTE]

A PRIME MAGIC DESTROYED MJ in their '87 H2H's. Just CRUSHED him. And that was an MJ in his peak scoring season. Just ANNIHILATED the worthless shot-jacking MJ.

As for Kareem.

MAGIC led them to a title in his ROOKIE SEASON, and with KAJ watching the title-clinching game at home from his couch.

MAGIC led them to their '82 title, and with McAdoo contributing as much in the Finals as KAJ did, but in far less minutes.

MAGIC was b y FAR the Lakers BEST PLAYER in their '87 title run, and in fact, KAJ was a third wheel.

MAGIC led them to a title in '88, and with KAJ and absolute WORTHLESS POS in the post-season, even worse in the Finals, and a complete joke in game seven. BTW, MAGIC deserved the FMVP, not Worthy. #4 for Magic.

And you comparing a broken down Lker team in '91, with Worthy crippled and a shell of what he had been (and basically done...his last semi-decent season_), and without Kareem mind you...and with a declining Magic...against a peak Jordan, with FAR greater surrounding personnel in Piipen and Grant (BOTH of whom WIPED the floor with the Lakers in the Finals)...with a PRIME Magic who DOMINATED in the ENTIRE DECADE of the 80's, and was a mere pass away from #6, an injury away from #7, a Worthy injury away from #8 in '83, and a rusty Magic injury away from '81 from #9.

NINE Finals in 12 seasons, and an eyelash away from NINE rings. Never came close to a losing season in his 12 seasons, and had a higher winning percentage without Kareem, than with him. BTW, Kareem's winning percentage without magic was WAY below Magic's CAREER W-L %. Led Kareem-LESS teams to records of 62-17 and 57-22. Took a Kareem-LESS player past the heavily-favored Blazers in '91, and to his NINTH Finals.

But thanks for playing.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]

Alright let's put this theory of yours to the test, shall we 3ball? Michael Jordan vs Scottie Pippen [B][COLOR="Red"]DPBM and DWS[/COLOR][/B] in the playoffs during all six champion runs:

[/quote]

[B]My theory is that MJ played goat defense, which your stats don't refute.. But let me demonstrate how dumb you are for using DPBM and DWS:[/B]


[COLOR="Green"][I]Bird[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Career DPBM[/I]: 2.5[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]Pippen Career DPBM[/I]: 2.4[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"][I]Bird[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Career DRtg[/I]: 101[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]Pippen Career DRtg[/I]: 102[/COLOR]


I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but Bird had higher DWS too.. So WHY does Bird have higher defensive stats than Pippen???... Because these stats are based on individual defensive rating (DRtg), which is based on TEAM performance.. This is from basketball-reference:


[INDENT]"[I]Out of necessity (due to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), [COLOR="Navy"]individual Defensive Ratings are [B]heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency[/B]. They assume that all teammates are equally good at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses[/COLOR], as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.[/I]"[/INDENT]


I've had to post the above definition many times to educate posters about DRtg, and subsequently DPBM and DWS... Now you know.. These stats results in hundreds if not thousands of similarly erroneous conclusions like Bird > Pippen defensively.
.

First 3Peat ;

Pippen - Second greatest defender of small forwards in nba history . Great playmaker nearly as Jordan . Solid points producer . Great rebounder for his position .

Grant - He could main rebounder in every team. Solid rim protector , good on ball defender and versatile defender . Solid playmaker for his position . And averaged scorer .

B.J - Just good scorer and good guard .

Paxson - Solid sharpshooter , who is saved 93 finals ..


Second 3Peat ;

Pippen - Better defender and better playmaker than Jordan in 96 and 98 .

Harper - Solid perimeter defender . Solid playmaker . And great physicality .

Kukoc - Like Gasol,Gino ; he had technicality of Europe . All around player , great offensive producer . Solid playmaker . Good perimeter defender .

Rodman - Greatest rebounder in history . Versatile defender . Great man to defender .

Kerr - Good sharpshooter .

[QUOTE=3ball]

[B]My theory is that MJ played goat defense, which your stats don't refute.. But let me demonstrate how dumb you are for using DPBM and DWS:[/B]


[COLOR="Green"][I]Bird[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Career DPBM[/I]: 2.5[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]Pippen Career DPBM[/I]: 2.4[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Green"][I]Bird[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Career DRtg[/I]: 101[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]Pippen Career DRtg[/I]: 102[/COLOR]


I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but Bird had better DWS too.. So WHY does Bird have higher defensive stats than Pippen???... Because these stats are based on individual defensive rating (DRtg), which is based on TEAM performance.. This is from basketball-reference:


[INDENT]"[I]Out of necessity (due to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), [COLOR="Navy"]individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses[/COLOR], as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.[/I]"[/INDENT]


I've had to post the above definition many times to educate posters about DRtg, and subsequently DPBM and DWS... Now you know.. These stats results in hundreds if not thousands of similarly erroneous conclusions like Bird > Pippen defensively.

[/QUOTE]
[B]What's up Smoke?

Cat got your tongue?[/B]


:yaohappy:
.

Bulls were a "miracle shot" away from being swept? News to me.

If that shot (which if missed would actually have sent to game to OT; and if won by the Knicks would actually have just put them up 3-0) is what kept the Bulls from being swept, then that BS call on Scottie in game 5 is what kept the Bulls from beating the eventual East champions.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]Bulls were a "miracle shot" away from being swept? News to me.

If that shot (which if missed would actually have sent to game to OT; and if won by the Knicks would actually have just put them up 3-0) is what kept the Bulls from being swept, then that BS call on Scottie in game 5 is what kept the Bulls from beating the eventual East champions.[/QUOTE]

1993 Finals Game 6 , Jordan passed to the Pippen , Pippen passed to the inside , Grant and Grant passed to the open 3's guy Paxson , that was good set from Phil when Jordan made two airball and four misses of his last five shots .

If Paxson was missed that shot , Suns would win the Game 7 with their momentum .

[QUOTE=feyki]1993 Finals Game 6 , Jordan passed to the Pippen , Pippen passed to the inside , Grant and Grant passed to the open 3's guy Paxson , that was good set from Phil when Jordan made two airball and four misses of his last five shots .

If Paxson was missed that shot , Suns would win the Game 7 with their momentum .[/QUOTE]
Same thing in 98. If Jordan doesn't hit that miracle shot then the Jazz, with the momentum, win game 7 at home.

[QUOTE=feyki]1993 Finals Game 6 , Jordan passed to the Pippen , Pippen passed to the inside , Grant and Grant passed to the open 3's guy Paxson , that was good set from Phil when Jordan made two airball and four misses of his last five shots .

If Paxson was missed that shot , [B]Suns would win the Game 7 with their momentum [/B].[/QUOTE]

Doubt it.

[QUOTE=feyki]1993 Finals Game 6 , Jordan passed to the Pippen , Pippen passed to the inside , Grant and Grant passed to the open 3's guy Paxson , that was good set from Phil when Jordan made two airball and four misses of his last five shots .

If Paxson was missed that shot , Suns would win the Game 7 with their momentum .[/QUOTE]

How many people scored points in that 4th quarter before Paxson made his shot?

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]How many people scored points in that 4th quarter before Paxson made his shot?[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]Same thing in 98. If Jordan doesn't hit that miracle shot then the Jazz, with the momentum, win game 7 at home.[/QUOTE]

Yes , with clear offensive foul .

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]How many people scored points in that 4th quarter before Paxson made his shot?[/QUOTE]

I guess Suns made 19 points , Bulls made 7 points in 4thquarter .

This pretty much sums up all of 3ball's posts in this thread:

[IMG]https://media1.giphy.com/media/KgUws2cKpPePS/200.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]https://media3.giphy.com/media/g3urShdMPdvwY/200.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]https://media4.giphy.com/media/njiFH82QA9vHy/200.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]https://media1.giphy.com/media/ylyUQngtu3CjajjGy4/200.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]https://media3.giphy.com/media/ceeN6U57leAhi/200.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]https://media2.giphy.com/media/11SJ52YouBaDFS/200.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]https://media1.giphy.com/media/nisgN3oZmsuty/200.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]https://media4.giphy.com/media/m8eIbBdkJK7Go/200.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]https://media1.giphy.com/media/b5XRfyjS2xva0/200.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=feyki]Yes , with clear offensive foul .



I guess Suns made 19 points , Bulls made 7 points in 4thquarter .[/QUOTE]

Jordan had scored all 9 4th quarter points for the Bulls before Paxson's 3.

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]Jordan had scored all 9 4th quarter points for the Bulls before Paxson's 3.[/QUOTE]

So ? Where was Jordan's great playming ? Or Defence ( Steal the ball and run for fastbreak ) ?

Bulls and Jordan got annihilated in 4 quarter and Paxson save their ass .

[QUOTE=feyki]So ? Where was Jordan's great playming ? Or Defence ( Steal the ball and run for fastbreak ) ?

Bulls and Jordan got annihilated in 4 quarter and Paxson save their ass .[/QUOTE]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

His teammates didn't score. You can give someone a great shot but they miss it happens. Jordan sensed the moment and realized he had to score and he did it.

You act like it's easy for players to get multiple steals and blocks in 1 quarter, just because he didn't get 1 it doesn't mean he played bad defense.

Jordan scored all of the Bulls' points and kept the Bulls in the Game before Paxson's 3 but yeah Paxson saved his ass

You're a f*cking moron.

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings*]:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

His teammates didn't score. You can give someone a great shot but they miss it happens. Jordan sensed the moment and realized he had to score and he did it.

You act like it's easy for players to get multiple steals and blocks in 1 quarter, just because he didn't get 1 it doesn't mean he played bad defense.

Jordan scored all of the Bulls' points and kept the Bulls in the Game before Paxson's 3 but yeah Paxson saved his ass

You're a f*cking moron.[/QUOTE]



feyki's making some valid points

But you're too biased to notice :sleeping

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

His teammates didn't score. You can give someone a great shot but they miss it happens. Jordan sensed the moment and realized he had to score and he did it.

You act like it's easy for players to get multiple steals and blocks in 1 quarter, just because he didn't get 1 it doesn't mean he played bad defense.

Jordan scored all of the Bulls' points and kept the Bulls in the Game before Paxson's 3 but yeah Paxson saved his ass

You're a f*cking moron.[/QUOTE]


Dirk didn't airball or misses most of his clutch shots when his team struggled you f.kking f.g flopper fanboy .

Jordan sucked in 4 quarter and like you , mindless fanboys can't take it .

[QUOTE=feyki]Dirk didn't airball or misses most of his clutch shots when his team struggled you f.kking f.g flopper fanboy .

Jordan sucked in 4 quarter and like you , mindless fanboys can't take it .[/QUOTE]

Wtf are you talking about. I haven't mentioned Dirk or anything abouyt him.

You can't prove me wrong so you just post mindless garbage :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]Wtf are you talking about. I haven't mentioned Dirk or anything abouyt him.

You can't prove me wrong so you just post mindless garbage :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Jordan just had bad 4 quarter and he and his team saved by Paxson . Why are you ignore that ?

There is no shame . Basketball is team sport .

[QUOTE=feyki]Jordan just had bad 4 quarter and he and his team saved by Paxson . Why are you ignore that ?

There is no shame . Basketball is team sport .[/QUOTE]

Jordan had all 9 points for the Bulls before Paxson's 3, why are you ignoring that?

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]Jordan had all 9 points for the Bulls before Paxson's 3, why are you ignoring that?[/QUOTE]

With 0 assists , and probably %30 fg(%35-40 maximum) .

That is really bad .

[QUOTE=feyki]With 0 assists , and probably %30 fg(%35-40 maximum) .

That is really bad .[/QUOTE]

Now you're just making stuff up :oldlol: