Where would you put LeBron James on the all time list? Honest answers, please.

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]You are being overly defensive here and didn't read what I wrote. I'm saying there is a threshold rank at which well over half the members here would say he's above. I'm pretty sure like 60% or so, maybe 2/3, would say he's in the top 7 of all time. [B]That doesn't mean 7th. It means at least 7th.
[/B]
It is also likely true, based on this voting at least that 60% or maybe 2/3 of the voters would say "not top 4" (only 53% said not top 5 and 71% said not top 3 so it seems like a fair approximation.

[B]So 5, 6, or 7 is roughly where he ranks.[/B] I think the issue is that besides MJ, we are going to massively disagree on which guys are ahead of LeBron and which are below even if we slotted LeBron in at #6.[/QUOTE]


Absolutely not. The bolded are dead wrong.

But feel free to create your own poll. You can have up to 14 choices here.

OP is dumb as hell, dude said he doubts LeBron is top 5 :roll:

Thread is dumb as hell too, how are we supposed to take this dumb ass thread serious if not top 15 is an option?


At this point i can't see LeBron being lower than 5. This forum is retarded

.
[B]The reasons many people think lebron isn't top 15:[/B]


What if lebron stayed in Cleveland his whole career and had zero rings right now

He'd have no real case over Dirk or Malone, and he'd be behind Bird and Duncan by healthy margin

But even [U]with[/U] the team-hopping - the same lack of rings would've happened if ray and kyrie missed those legacy-saving shots instead of making them

And that's without considering all his flaws.. i.e. no clutch for the majority of his career, crushes teammates, non-goat offenses, hard to build around his ball-dominance skillset, etc, etc

[I]It's a good case that no one can refute because he did indeed team-hop and stack the deck[/I]
.

[QUOTE=knicksman]AJ, facts are easy and not all people are simpletons like you. We want to dig deeper. We seek challenges so we analyze whats behind those facts coz thats where the fun is. Coz if facts is all we need, then why bother debating. Everyone will arrive at the same conclusion.[/QUOTE]
Because at the end of the day only losers respect bran. us big dick alfas respect kobe

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Absolutely not. The bolded are dead wrong.

But feel free to create your own poll. You can have up to 14 choices here.[/QUOTE]

You are bad at reading.

47% of people here think he is at least top 5 (as of my latest post). This is based on YOUR poll. I am saying that I think most of the top 10ish folks would have him in the top 7 camp. But more importantly, there is some rank threshold where there would be significant agreement that he is over (60-65% is pretty significant).

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Okay, here it is. Everyone can try with different values. Takes 3 minutes to type it to a spreadsheet.

[IMG]http://oi68.tinypic.com/o10u3q.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Those are your actual weighted values?:oldlol: ok makes perfect sense now. You gave the lowest point value to the most widespread belief as far as his ranking. There is no publication/sports entity that has lebron ranked lower than 5th if i remember correctly with most having him 3rd or higher. Would you explain how you came to your points distribution conclusions besides the fact that you perosnally say barely top 10?

[QUOTE=3ball].
[B]The reasons many people think lebron isn't top 15:[/B]


What if lebron stayed in Cleveland his whole career and had zero rings right now

He'd have no real case over Dirk or Malone, and he'd be behind Bird and Duncan by healthy margin

But even [U]with[/U] the team-hopping - the same lack of rings would've happened if ray and kyrie missed those legacy-saving shots instead of making them

And that's without considering all his flaws.. i.e. no clutch for the majority of his career, crushes teammates, non-goat offenses, hard to build around his ball-dominance skillset, etc, etc

[I]It's a good case that no one can refute because he did indeed team-hop and stack the deck[/I]
.[/QUOTE]



How are you going to forget his defense allowing 4 small forwards to win FMVP on him directly head to head, and leading some,of the worst defenses in the league for a while now.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Those are your actual weighted values?:oldlol: ok makes perfect sense now. You gave the lowest point value to the most widespread belief as far as his ranking. There is no publication/sports entity that has lebron ranked lower than 5th if i remember correctly with most having him 3rd or higher. Would you explain how you came to your points distribution conclusions besides the fact that you perosnally say barely top 10?[/QUOTE]


More than 50% thinks he is not top 5. Isn't that a valid enough reason as to why there was such an option?

:facepalm

I would like to be fair and and say he's easily number two; all statistics point to it being so. But I just can't when, if given the choice, I would take Tim Duncan's career over Lebron's without a second thought. Numbers schmumbers

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]You are bad at reading.

47% of people here think he is at least top 5 (as of my latest post). This is based on YOUR poll.[B] I am saying that I think most of the top 10ish folks would have him in the top 7 camp.[/B] But more importantly, there is some rank threshold where there would be significant agreement that he is over (60-65% is pretty significant).[/QUOTE]


But you don't know that. You assume. I for one have him somewhere between 9-12. From this data there is no telling exactly where people put him.

Anyway, we are close to a hundred so i think it was fun but more than enough. Per ISH LeBron is somewhere in the 6-9 range, most likely is number 7.

The end.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]More than 50% thinks he is not top 5. Isn't that a valid enough reason as to why there was such an option?

:facepalm[/QUOTE]
pretty big lack of awareness, this is ish bro. There are more people who hate lebron than are fans here for various reasons. Most of the time it just takes an avy check to see the disposition. The rest of nba fandom? not so much hence the reason he's universally rated higher than your borderline troll options.

edit: not to mention at the moment around 50% have him top 5 and above.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]But you don't know that. You assume. I for one have him somewhere between 9-12. From this data there is no telling exactly where people put him.

Anyway, we are close to a hundred so i think it was fun but more than enough. Per ISH LeBron is somewhere in the 6-9 range, most likely is number 7.

The end.[/QUOTE]

The median is likely better than 7. The median is likely somewhere around 5.5 or so, which is quite apparent by the 47/53 split for Top 5. The average (even adjusted for dummies who put him below Top 10ish, would be a bit lower (6.3 by my last count). So 5-7 is a reasonable estimate with VERY few extrapolations, and 6 being decent estimate. I know arguing over 6 and 7 isn't too important, and I personally don't care if he's ranked 6th or 7th on someone's list at all, but it is disingenuous to represent the results otherwise.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]pretty big lack of awareness, this is ish bro. There are more people who hate lebron than are fans here for various reasons. Most of the time it just takes an avy check to see the disposition. The rest of nba fandom? not so much hence the reason he's universally rated higher than your borderline troll options.

edit: not to mention at the moment around 50% have him top 5 and above.[/QUOTE]

"Around 50%" yes. But less than 50%.

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]The median is likely better than 7. The median is likely somewhere around 5.5 or so, which is quite apparent by the 47/53 split for Top 5. [/QUOTE]


Wrong. In the top 5 there are 5 spots. Under the top 5 there are more spots. So your reasoning falls apart right here.



[QUOTE]The average (even adjusted for dummies who put him below Top 10ish, would be a bit lower (6.3 by my last count). So 5-7 is a reasonable estimate with VERY few extrapolations, and 6 being decent estimate.[/QUOTE]


Wrong for the same reason.



[QUOTE]I know arguing over 6 and 7 isn't too important, and I personally don't care if he's ranked 6th or 7th on someone's list at all, but it is disingenuous to represent the results otherwise.[/QUOTE]


Yes, it is not that important. Somewhere between 6 and 9. And we can't filter by account.


Now you have to excuse me, but I honestly lost interest.

100% top 5.

If he wins a championship and mvp then second after Jordan.

[B][U]After 100 votes:[/U][/B]
points 724
avg: 7.24



[U]If you exlude the extremes (goat and not top 15)[/U]


votes: 72
points: 488
avg: 6.78



[U]If you exclude top 3 and out of top 10 as well:[/U]

votes: 43
points: 276
avg: 6.42


I say number 7 is a pretty safe bet. You may argue number 6 or number 8.


Take care.

[QUOTE=knicksman]AJ, facts are easy and not all people are simpletons like you. We want to dig deeper. We seek challenges so we analyze whats behind those facts coz thats where the fun is. Coz if facts is all we need, then why bother debating. Everyone will arrive at the same conclusion.[/QUOTE]
Why would anyone debate with you? You have the intelligence of a rodent. You have never even watched a single second of basketball, let alone touch a real one. You're the Simple Jack on this board. Heck, Simple Jack would probably look like Einstein next to you.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]I get it.

But sometimes you don't need facts. Who do you think is the best cook? Well... what do you like to eat? You have a right to form an opinion that you don't want to defend. You don't have to defend it. You may... try. :oldlol: Opinions are opinions because they are not facts. So you can't really prove them.

Or to put it in another way. Your opinion is not factual. Something you strongly believe will not make that belief a fact. However... you do think what you think and this IS a fact. When it comes to opinions the only fact you do have is your opinion being yours.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but that's a crappy analogy. As SouBeach said, food is 100% subjective. In basketball you have stats and metrics to prove your case. How do you prove stuff when it comes to tasting food?

Of course, my opinion is not factual. lol

However, these are facts:

There's 2 people in the history of the sport with 4 or more MVP's and 3 or more MVP's.

Most All-NBA First teams (will likely end up with most All-NBA selections overall as well).

First and only player ever to hit 30k/8k/8k.

Top 5 all time in scoring (will likely end up top 2).

Most points ever in the PO's, top 3 in assists, and top 5 in rebounds.

Incredible career averages at all 3 stages (RS, PO's, and Finals).

Greatest G7 performer of all time.

Greatest elimination game performer of all time.

High iq thread

I picked top 10ish

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Wrong. In the top 5 there are 5 spots. Under the top 5 there are more spots. So your reasoning falls apart right here.
[/QUOTE]

Your logic fails miserable here. So slightly less than 50% of voters so far have him outside the top 5. So if a few votes switched over from Top 10ish to Top 5, we'd see the opposite, and more than half of voters would have him top 5.

If that were the case, then we'd have to say the median score is somewhere at least a little better than a flat 5. Maybe it would be 4.8 or 4.9. Because you set up the poll options so sloppily, we have very little information about the voters who don't have him top 5, but if it would only take 2-3 switched votes to make the median 4.9 or so, then it is incredibly safe to assume the current median opinion isn't too much lower than 5. I suggested 5.5, but it might be more like 5.3 or so. But 5.5 works as a conservative estimate.

Saying "wrong" over and over isn't helping you push the disingenuous agenda.

Having said all that, it is pretty clear that LeBron is not a clear cut top 5 player based on the voters here. But that is probably about as strong a comment as we can make. He is probably 6th based on these results. But again the poll was set up so poorly that it is tough to say definitively.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan are the guys I'd take over LeBron without thinking about it at all.

Guys like Oscar, Kobe, David Robinson, Isiah Thomas, Jerry West are all in the same vicinity. I don't put much stock in today's stats because the league is soft. I believe if you give these guys the green light to switch franchises as they see fit, a front office willing to move any and everybody by the trading deadline if these guys aren't happy, a super soft conference to dominate every year and a teflon coating that deflects any blame for anything, these guys would be just or more successful as LeBron has been in their own way.

I don't know where guys like Elgin Baylor, Bob Petite stand. I don't know much about them but they can't be too far behind.

Guys like Wade, Durant, Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Drexler, Dirk, Garnett, Barkley, Pippen, Moses Malone aren't that far behind, if at all.

They can't out-Lebron James Lebron James. They may not lead their team in every category (which has some negative consequences that are rarely spoken about) but I think they'd be just as successful if not more so in their own way if given similar circumstances.[/QUOTE]Among those players you list "ahead" of Lebron:

only 3 have more Mvp awards

only 1, probably 2 have more Finals Mvps(counting if Russell had been eligible his entire career)

only 6 guys have more rings (half of that 6 got privilege of playing with another player from the list)

only 3 have scored more points

only 1 has more assists

only 7 have more rebounds

none have scored more postseason points

1 has more playoff assists

5 have more playoff rebounds

only 2 have ever posted a higher PER

best elimination game player to ever walk the earth

only player to ever lead a series in all statistical categories and it was the finals to boot.

NONE have ever defeated a 70 win team for a title

i just stuck to hard facts and stayed away from the subjective aspects. there's literally a ton of things you can add like triple doubles, or more subjective things like offensive and defensive peak etc. Too much evidence to the contrary of what you want to put out there.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Among those players you list "ahead" of Lebron:

only 3 have more Mvp awards

only 1, probably 2 have more Finals Mvps(counting if Russell had been eligible his entire career)

only 6 guys have more rings (half of that 6 got privilege of playing with another player from the list)

only 3 have scored more points

only 1 has more assists

only 7 have more rebounds

none have scored more postseason points

1 has more playoff assists

5 have more playoff rebounds

only 2 have ever posted a higher PER

best elimination game player to ever walk the earth

only player to ever lead a series in all statistical categories and it was the finals to boot.

NONE have ever defeated a 70 win team for a title

i just stuck to hard facts and stayed away from the subjective aspects. there's literally a ton of things you can add like triple doubles, or more subjective things like offensive and defensive peak etc. Too much evidence to the contrary of what you want to put out there.[/QUOTE]
Lebron has led the league ONE TIME in something; basically never been the best at anything

So it's disingenuous to use career totals, which are heavily influenced by how long they played

The other stuff is random stuff, where other players have their areas of advantage too.. so Da Realist was spot-on

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Among those players you list "ahead" of Lebron:

only 3 have more Mvp awards

only 1, probably 2 have more Finals Mvps(counting if Russell had been eligible his entire career)

only 6 guys have more rings (half of that 6 got privilege of playing with another player from the list)

only 3 have scored more points

only 1 has more assists

only 7 have more rebounds

none have scored more postseason points

1 has more playoff assists

5 have more playoff rebounds

only 2 have ever posted a higher PER

best elimination game player to ever walk the earth

only player to ever lead a series in all statistical categories and it was the finals to boot.

NONE have ever defeated a 70 win team for a title

i just stuck to hard facts and stayed away from the subjective aspects. there's literally a ton of things you can add like triple doubles, or more subjective things like offensive and defensive peak etc. Too much evidence to the contrary of what you want to put out there.[/QUOTE]

So? Stats change depending on context. Basketball is not a math equation. Allow David Robinson to join the Seattle Supersonics in his prime and they'd destroy the league. He wouldn't need to beat a 70 win team, his team would [I]be[/I] the 70 win team. But that's not enough. Let's say some team beats them after they dominate a few years... David would now be allowed to join any team of his choosing with a front office that would move heaven and earth to place the perfect team around him. He'd win even more. Allow him to do it AGAIN after that team wears itself down.

He would have a different career, a dynasty, more rings and he'd put up Wilt-like numbers. His numbers would change, but he would be the exact same player he always was.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]So? Stats change depending on context. Basketball is not a math equation. Allow David Robinson to join the Seattle Supersonics in his prime and they'd destroy the league. He wouldn't need to beat a 70 win team, his team would [I]be[/I] the 70 win team. But that's not enough. Let's say some team beats them after they dominate a few years... David would now be allowed to join any team of his choosing with a front office that would move heaven and earth to place the perfect team around him. He'd win even more. Allow him to do it AGAIN after that team wears itself down.

He would have a different career, a dynasty, more rings and he'd put up Wilt-like numbers. His numbers would change, but he would be the exact same player he always was.[/QUOTE]

Would he also destroy the league if Payton's knees were shot and if Kemp was too much of a ***** to be physical and decided to stay on the perimeter instead?

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]MJ, [B]Magic[/B], [B]Bird[/B], Kareem, [B]Wilt[/B], [B]Russell[/B], Shaq, [B]Olajuwon[/B], [B]Duncan [/B]are the guys I'd take over LeBron without thinking about it at all. [/quote]
:roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Guys like Oscar, Kobe, David Robinson, Isiah Thomas, Jerry West are all in the same vicinity.[/quote]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Are you on literally all the drugs in the world right now? Ignoring the others, Isiah is in the vicinity of LeBron? That makes as much sense as Harden being in MJ's vicinity.


[QUOTE=Da_Realist]I don't put much stock in today's stats because the league is soft.[/quote]

LeBron as a 18 year old rookie was dropping 21/6/6/2/1 in 2004 before all the rule changes. At 19, he was dropping 27/7/7/2/1 in his second season. Lets not act like

[QUOTE=3ball]Lebron has led the league ONE TIME in something; basically never been the best at anything

So it's disingenuous to use career totals, which are heavily influenced by how long they played

The other stuff is random stuff, where other players have their areas of advantage too.. so Da Realist was spot-on[/QUOTE]
So goat isn't about a player's complete body of work? Since when? And you just got a skewed view of everything, it's not a negative to not lead anything when you've been great at everything at some point or another. Swiss army knives aren't meant to be the best tool for one thing. It's all about utility, I'm sure that will shoot over your head like a fadeaway though.

not top 15 for me. He's number 17 or 18 to me so far. Probaly even lower... I have to redo my list.:applause:

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]So? Stats change depending on context. Basketball is not a math equation. Allow David Robinson to join the Seattle Supersonics in his prime and they'd destroy the league. He wouldn't need to beat a 70 win team, his team would [I]be[/I] the 70 win team. But that's not enough. Let's say some team beats them after they dominate a few years... David would now be allowed to join any team of his choosing with a front office that would move heaven and earth to place the perfect team around him. He'd win even more. Allow him to do it AGAIN after that team wears itself down.

He would have a different career, a dynasty, more rings and he'd put up Wilt-like numbers. His numbers would change, but he would be the exact same player he always was.[/QUOTE]
no, not just stats man. Accolades were actually at the forefront of my post. If, If, If. Let's say the Cavs organization were able to put a true contender around Lebron his 1st stint, as well as an alltime great coach and another top 20 all time player as his 2nd mate oh and lets not forget a squad that can win 55 games without him....wouldn't his career look different too? That's why i steered clear of subjective stuff purposely anyone can play the if game bro.

[QUOTE=Real14]not top 15 for me. He's number 17 or 18 to me so far. Probaly even lower... I have to redo my list.:applause:[/QUOTE]
good thing nobody gives a damn what you think here:oldlol:

[QUOTE=aj1987]Would he also destroy the league if Payton's knees were shot and if Kemp was too much of a ***** to be physical and decided to stay on the perimeter instead?[/QUOTE]

I don't think that was the case. They moved to the perimeter by necessity to allow more spacing for LeBron to operate. Pre-injury we saw it with Kevin Love who was getting way more touches in the paint than he did at any point in Cleveland, closer to what he was doing in Minnesota

Bosh we know did play more in the paint pre-LeBron so I dont know if it makes much sense to say he just suddenly became a *****. It's more likely that he was asked to stretch the floor instead of crowd the lane and that adjustment stuck with him, unlike Love who went back to getting more paint touches

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]no, not just stats man. Accolades were actually at the forefront of my post. If, If, If. Let's say the Cavs organization were able to put a true contender around Lebron his 1st stint, as well as an alltime great coach and another top 20 all time player as his 2nd mate oh and lets not forget a squad that can win 55 games without him....wouldn't his career look different too? That's why i steered clear of subjective stuff purposely anyone can play the if game bro.[/QUOTE]

I don't think Lebron could play for an all-time coach or be able to plug his talents into a system or ever develop a team that could be good without him. Those are some of the reasons I don't have him in my top 5.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]I don't think Lebron could play for an all-time coach or be able to plug his talents into a system or ever develop a team that could be good without him. Those are some of the reasons I don't have him in my top 5.[/QUOTE]
and that's an opinion without much to back it up so rightfully so you'll be questioned. Irrational thought.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Are you on literally all the drugs in the world right now? Ignoring the others, Isiah is in the vicinity of LeBron? That makes as much sense as Harden being in MJ's vicinity.[/QUOTE]

Isiah led his team to two titles in perhaps the league's toughest conference ever and having to beat all time great teams led by all time greats Bird and Magic while holding off a soon-to-be all time great Bulls dynasty led by GOAT MJ.

Not the same as beating John Wall and Kyle Lowry every year. Give Isiah the same license LeBron has... let him join up with his superfriends after Detroit goes down. Let him join Cleveland and allow him to recruit Barkley, they'd be a problem. This is what LeBron has been getting away with.

Da_Realist is literally on bath salts.

I don't have any other conclusion. That man has gone beyond lol

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]good thing nobody gives a damn what you think here:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
N.igga please!:biggums: I'm a ISH legend around here, u butthurt salty bitch:lol

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Isiah led his team to two titles in perhaps the league's toughest conference ever and having to beat all time great teams led by all time greats Bird and Magic while holding off a soon-to-be all time great Bulls dynasty led by GOAT MJ.

Not the same as beating John Wall and Kyle Lowry every year. Give Isiah the same license LeBron has... let him join up with his superfriends after Detroit goes down. Let him join Cleveland and allow him to recruit Barkley, they'd be a problem. This is what LeBron has been getting away with.[/QUOTE]
That's right! Preach to these young na

[QUOTE=Real14]N.igga please!:biggums: I'm a ISH legend around here, u butthurt salty bitch:lol[/QUOTE]
no such thing as a legendary hater bro :oldlol: and nah no salt here im actualy glad to see people debating with fleshed out posts instead of stupid one liner catchphrases "legends" are known for.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]no such thing as a legendary hater bro :oldlol: and nah no salt here im actualy glad to see people debating with fleshed out posts instead of stupid one liner catchphrases "legends" are known for.[/QUOTE]
I'm not a hater man. I just think Lebron is very overrated and dont deserve to be called top 5 of all time man. Who are you btw?:confusedshrug: :biggums: :lol

[QUOTE=Real14]I'm not a hater man. I just think Lebron is very overrated and dont deserve to be called top 5 of all time man. Who are you btw?:confusedshrug: :biggums: :lol[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/17732438/i-am-not-your-father.jpg[/IMG]
:oldlol: couldn't resist.
just a concerned citizen that likes to discuss all time lists.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon][IMG]https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/17732438/i-am-not-your-father.jpg[/IMG]
:oldlol: couldn't resist.
just a concerned citizen that likes to discuss all time lists.[/QUOTE]
ok whatever u say pal:lol

14-20 range

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]So goat isn't about a player's complete body of work? Since when? And you just got a skewed view of everything, it's not a negative to not lead anything when [B][COLOR="DarkRed"][I][SIZE="3"]you've been great at everything at some point or another[/SIZE][/I][/COLOR][/B]. Swiss army knives aren't meant to be the best tool for one thing. It's all about utility, I'm sure that will shoot over your head like a fadeaway though.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but that's the thing - MJ's been great at everything too - he was an all-around player, but also the goat at various things like scoring and steals

Unfortunately, those goat things overshadowed his great play in other areas.. let me know when gets lebron gets 11 apg in the Finals, let alone as a non-PG..

And when has lebron ever been called the best player at [U]another[/U] position, like the media called MJ within a few games of him at PG in 89'???.. I'll wait.. lebron's just a ball-dominator - he isn't great off-ball at SG, or on the post as a pf
.