"Pippen was the best player in the world in 93, 94, 95" - Dennis Rodman

[QUOTE=3ball;14334462]13' Wade scored more pace-adjusted and was 1b in the Finals with 20 ppg (25 for lebron) - Pippen was never a 1b

Regardless, Pippen was never anywhere near the best player and was a liability from 88-90', 93', 96-03', and he choked in the 94' and 95' ECSF[/QUOTE]

Pace cant account for the rule changes bro.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14334728]Did he have a fair opportunity to accomplish that feat? I mean he took over a team that was built around a player whose style wasnt like his. And even then, it was for only a year and a half. Any other guy you name would have had about 5 to 10 years of attempts at leasing a team to a title.

But as as I told you in the other thread, Pippen was extremely highly regarded during his shirt stint. And this thread more than proves it. Stats never tell the whole story.[/QUOTE]

pippen had opportunities in 94, 99 & 2000. at those same ages, jordan led his teams to multiple rings. excuses only work for so long. stats are an indicator of your production. and pippen didn't produce like a guy capable of leading a team to a ring.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24;14334754]pippen had opportunities in 94, 99 & 2000. at those same ages, jordan led his teams to multiple rings. excuses only work for so long. stats are an indicator of your production. and pippen didn't produce like a guy capable of leading a team to a ring.[/QUOTE]

Pippen was 33 and 34 years old. And those teams werent built around him. I remember him complaining about the offense that was centered around Barkley and Olajuwan in Houston.

Pippen was past his prime in Portland. Prime Pippen on that Blazers teams bests the Lakers.

Stats dont tell the whole story. And Pippen was PG. That's why i keep telling you it's about impact. Look at the Wizards with Russell Westbrook and Bradley Beal this year.

:facepalm

Just reason #34343226664 why player evaluation from athletes is utterly useless. They don't have a clue.

If you read Rodman's [I]Bad As I Wanna Be[/I] (1997), you'd also come out think rebounding is the single most important thing in basketball and that he's a better player than David Robinson.

In other words, athletes are stupid. Their opinions are rarely ever based on anything tangible, but entirely driven by ego, feelings, emotions and very selective memory.

[QUOTE=Indian guy;14334775]:facepalm

Just reason #34343226664 why player evaluation from athletes is utterly useless. They don't have a clue.

If you read Rodman's [I]Bad As I Wanna Be[/I] (1997), you'd also come out think rebounding is the single most important thing in basketball and that he's a better player than David Robinson.

In other words, athletes are stupid. Their opinions are rarely ever based on anything tangible, but entirely driven by ego, feelings, emotions and very selective memory.[/QUOTE]

So whose opinion should we respect? Dudes on the internet?

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14334781]So whose opinion should we respect? Dudes on the internet?[/QUOTE]

Yes. An [I]educated[/I] fan is 10x more knowledgeable than an athlete. And would certainly never say anything as retarded as Rodman here.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14334774]Pippen was 33 and 34 years old. And those teams werent built around him. I remember him complaining about the offense that was centered around Barkley and Olajuwan in Houston.

Pippen was past his prime in Portland. Prime Pippen on that Blazers teams bests the Lakers.

Stats dont tell the whole story. And Pippen was PG. That's why i keep telling you it's about impact. Look at the Wizards with Russell Westbrook and Bradley Beal this year.[/QUOTE]

so was jordan when he won in 97 & 98. the teams not being "built around pippen" is empty pretext. houston underachieved & the blazers had enough to win it all, but choked. there are also stats that measure impact. most of them conclude that pippen was a great sidekick. as a lead dog though he simply fell short.

[quote=indian guy;14334783]yes. An [i]educated[/i] fan is 10x more knowledgeable than an athlete. And would certainly never say anything as retarded as rodman here.[/quote]

gtfoh.

[QUOTE=Docs Orders;13973706]"and people didn't know that"


@3:45

[video=youtube;Uy4aEU5Swq4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy4aEU5Swq4[/video][/QUOTE]
:applause::applause:

[QUOTE=mehyaM24;14334786]so was jordan when he won in 97 & 98. the teams not being "built around pippen" is empty pretext. houston underachieved & the blazers had enough to win it all, but choked. there are also stats that measure impact. most of them conclude that pippen was a great sidekick. as a lead dog though he simply fell short.[/QUOTE]

Pippen ain't Jordan bro. And Jordan didnt have the milage Pippen had.

Nobody felt the Blazers were good enough to beat the Lakers. You're just throwing stuff out hoping something will stick.

I went back and found an article talking about Pippens tike in Houston. Here are some quotes from Pippen

It's been difficult for me," Pippen said. "It's going to be hard for me to find myself in this offense. They've built the offense around getting the ball in to Charles and Hakeem. For me to get shots, that's not going to happen often."We have to get everybody involved,"Pippen said. "We have to make the game fun for everybody. There are nights when things are not going right. It's time to go to somebody else and get somebody else involved.I'm frustrated," Pippen said. "Playing the minutes I'm playing, I'm not involved in the offense. It makes the game not fun anymore. My next step is to find why this organization wanted me."

[url]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pippen-frustrated-with-rockets/[/url]

I will say that Pippen was not the best player or even in the argument in 93. 94, 95, and 96? Its arguable.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14334792]Pippen ain't Jordan bro. And Jordan didnt have the milage Pippen had.

Nobody felt the Blazers were good enough to beat the Lakers. You're just throwing stuff out hoping something will stick.

I went back and found an article talking about Pippens tike in Houston. Here are some quotes from Pippen

It's been difficult for me," Pippen said. "It's going to be hard for me to find myself in this offense. They've built the offense around getting the ball in to Charles and Hakeem. For me to get shots, that's not going to happen often."We have to get everybody involved,"Pippen said. "We have to make the game fun for everybody. There are nights when things are not going right. It's time to go to somebody else and get somebody else involved.I'm frustrated," Pippen said. "Playing the minutes I'm playing, I'm not involved in the offense. It makes the game not fun anymore. My next step is to find why this organization wanted me."

[url]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pippen-frustrated-with-rockets/[/url][/QUOTE]

you're revising history again. portland was up 15 to start the 4th quarter. game 7, on the road, wcf. from the lakers vantage point, its one of the greatest comebacks in nba history. but many regard that quarter as one the biggest chokejobs. pippen was also the leader of that team, and fell short just like i said.

99 houston formed a big 3. just like 2011 miami did. lebron & wade took a while to adjust because their games were ALSO redundant. and like houston they ultimately underachieved. neither get an excuse, so quit making one.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14334794]I will say that Pippen was not the best player or even in the argument in 93. 94, 95, and 96? Its arguable.[/QUOTE]

its not arguable at all. in 94 & 95 it was clearly hakeem. and in 96 it was clearly jordan. from 94-96, pippen was a top 10ish player just like his production indicates.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24;14334795]you're revising history again. portland was up 15 to start the 4th quarter. game 7, on the road, wcf. from the lakers vantage point, its one of the greatest comebacks in nba history. but many regard that quarter as one the biggest chokejobs. pippen was also the leader of that team, and fell short just like i said.

99 houston formed a big 3. just like 2011 miami did. lebron & wade took a while to adjust because their games were ALSO redundant. and like houston they ultimately underachieved. neither get an excuse, so not sure why you're making one. they don't get an excuse.[/QUOTE]

I cant be revising history if I post an article from 1999. You're saying Pippen was the best player on a team that had Olajuwan and Barkley right? They didnt cater to his strengths. Did you even read the article? They didnt use Pippens skillset. It's like using a Lamborghini to tow a boat. Not to mention the Rockets were old. Barkely was a lazy slob. They had name players. Their situation isn't the same as the Heat who had all their big 3 in their prime.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14334798]I cant be revising history if I post an article from 1999. You're saying Pippen was the best player on a team that had Olajuwan and Barkley right? They didnt cater to his strengths. Did you even read the article? They didnt use Pippens skillset. It's like using a Lamborghini to tow a boat. Not to mention the Rockets were old. Barkely was a lazy slob. They had name players. Their situation isn't the same as the Heat who had all their big 3 in their prime.[/QUOTE]

the article you linked is common knowledge. pippen "not getting the ball enough" sounds like the struggles wade & lebron had. losing with a big 3 still means you underachieved though.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24;14334797]its not arguable at all. in 94 & 95 it was clearly hakeem. and in 96 it was clearly jordan. from 94-96 pippen was a top 10ish player. just like his production in indicates.[/QUOTE]

Again. That's YOUR opinion. I wouldn't pick him over Olajuwan in 94. I dont think I'd pick anybody over him in 95. Pippen was on the verge of winning MVP in 96 before he got hurt. He was definitely top 3 in 94-96. Even Max Kellerman said he only thought Olajuwan was better than Pippen in 94.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24;14334800]the article you linked is common knowledge. pippen "not getting the ball enough" sounds like the struggles wade & lebron had. not winning with a big 3 still means you underachieved though.[/QUOTE]

They were old bro. It's not the same thing. Put Pippen, Olajuwan, and Barkley on the same team in their late 20s like the Heat, and they run roughshod over the league.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14334801]Again. That's YOUR opinion. I wouldn't pick him over Olajuwan in 94. I dont think I'd pick anybody over him in 95. Pippen was on the verge of winning MVP in 96 before he got hurt. He was definitely top 3 in 94-96. Even Max Kellerman said he only thought Olajuwan was better than Pippen in 94.[/QUOTE]

hakeem had the best stats, impact analytics & led his team to back 2 back titles. sure its my opinion, but my opinion is backed by facts. i don't smply go off winning however i know that you do. so what happened to "winning is all that matters"? hey when in rome though, right? lol

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14334802]They were old bro. It's not the same thing. Put Pippen, Olajuwan, and Barkley on the same team in their late 20s like the Heat, and they run roughshod over the league.[/QUOTE]

ya and they still produced like stars. barkely was top 10ish in individual plus minus. hakeem had top 10 player efficiency etc. look, i was there & watched that team unfold. they didn't live up to their expectation.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24;14334807]hakeem had the best stats, impact analytics & led his team to back 2 back titles. sure its my opinion, but my opinion is backed by facts. i don't smply go off winning however i know that you do. so what happened to "winning is all that matters"? hey when in rome though, right? lol[/QUOTE]
You were comparing then to the Heat. The Heat were younger. Pippen stayed one year with the Rockets and even then, liken I keep telling you, the type offense they ran, wasnt in line with Pippens strengths. That's why I presented the example of using a Lamborghini to tow a boat. Or asking Olajuwan to run the point. They wanted Pippen to be a 3pt shooter.

I dont disagree with your assessment on Olajuwan. But you said Pippen at that time was 10ish. That's insane. I've asked you this question at least 5 times. Show me ANY PLAYER that did what Pippen did in 95. Lead his team in the 5 major categories, run the offense and anchor the number 2 defense with very little support. And still keep his team in playoff contention. Pippen was literally a one man show. No other player can make that claim. NONE!!!!

And yes I'm about winning. And also about context.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14334819]You were comparing then to the Heat. The Heat were younger. Pippen stayed one year with the Rockets and even then, liken I keep telling you, the type offense they ran, wasnt in line with Pippens strengths. That's why I presented the example of using a Lamborghini to tow a boat. Or asking Olajuwan to run the point. They wanted Pippen to be a 3pt shooter.

I dont disagree with your assessment on Olajuwan. But you said Pippen at that time was 10ish. That's insane. I've asked you this question at least 5 times. Show me ANY PLAYER that did what Pippen did in 95. Lead his team in the 5 major categories, run the offense and anchor the number 2 defense with very little support. And still keep his team in playoff contention. Pippen was literally a one man show. No other player can make that claim. NONE!!!!

And yes I'm about winning. And also about context.[/QUOTE]

nah you're muddying the waters here. when you claim "winning is all that matters" that automatically removes context. there were plenty of counter-arguments and "context" posters laid out for you, but you disregarded it for winning. be consistent pal.

i also said [B][U]top 10ish[/U][/B]. hakeem was obviously number 1 from 94-95. which you already agreed with. after that i would take shaq, ewing, drexler, robinson, malone, barkley. and then there is a decent argument for reggie miller. with jordan coming back in 95, the highest i could go with pippen is top 8. from 94-96 that sounds about fair. and its generous too with the rise of guys like grant hill & penny hardaway.

you can always tell the difference from real Bulls fans like 97 Bulls vs typical insecure Jordan stains

[QUOTE=LAmbruh;14334900]you can always tell the difference from real Bulls fans like 97 Bulls vs typical insecure Jordan stains[/QUOTE]

100%

97bulls is a true, legitimate Bulls fan

3stain is just an MJ fan boy

Pitiful one too :lol

5* thread

Free my boy Docs Orders

[QUOTE=mehyaM24;14334884]nah you're muddying the waters here. when you claim "winning is all that matters" that automatically removes context. there were plenty of counter-arguments and "context" posters laid out for you, but you disregarded it for winning. be consistent pal.

i also said [B][U]top 10ish[/U][/B]. hakeem was obviously number 1 from 94-95. which you already agreed with. after that i would take shaq, ewing, drexler, robinson, malone, barkley. and then there is a decent argument for reggie miller. with jordan coming back in 95, the highest i could go with pippen is top 8. from 94-96 that sounds about fair. and its generous too with the rise of guys like grant hill & penny hardaway.[/QUOTE]

I am consistent. Wade's Heat won in 06 and I question it due to context. I credit Pippen winning because he did it 6 times. I dont give a damn about "alpha ring". Especislly if you give players alpha blame.

As far as Pips rankings, your in the minority bro. Go back and read through this thread.

Thanks guys. I try to be unbiased.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335051]I am consistent. Wade's Heat won in 06 and I question it due to context. I credit Pippen winning because he did it 6 times. I dont give a damn about "alpha ring". Especislly if you give players alpha blame.

As far as Pips rankings, your in the minority bro. Go back and read through this thread.[/QUOTE]

pippen winning as a #2 is the context you're leaving out. winning is a bs premise because by your own admission, he isn't jordan.

again, the only poster wanting to rate him top 5 is you. nobody said that while it played out, especially during the playoffs.

Literally 90% of 97 Bulls posts is trying to prop up Pippen into someone he was not. You're not fooling anyone bro.

Never ever above Hakeem. Thats just disrespectful to the peak of an top 11 - 12 player ever


No way, no how. /thread

[QUOTE=mehyaM24;14335132]pippen winning as a #2 is the context you're leaving out. winning is a bs premise because by your own admission, he isn't jordan.

again, the only poster wanting to rate him top 5 is you. nobody said that while it played out, especially during the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

But that's the thing. Its nots just me bro. I ask again, did you read the information Roundball Rock put out? He was clearly top 2-3 over 94-96. Based on All NBA, MVP, All defense and DPOY voting. Not to mention what the players were saying. Rodman wasnt the only one that felt that way about Pippen.

[QUOTE=LAmbruh;14334900]you can always tell the difference from real Bulls fans like 97 Bulls vs typical insecure Jordan stains[/QUOTE]

Without question. It's very obvious to see who is a true Chicago Bulls fan (like 97 Bulls) and who is an MJ fanboy (like 3ball/Clipper Revival).

It's painfully obvious to anyone that knows the game like you and I.

Everybody in that Bulls locker room knew scottie was the man. They FOLLOWED pippen. Pippen was the leader of that team with or without Jordan

Stats won't tell you this

But Rodman will

:eek:

:banana:

[QUOTE=Pip' N Rodman;14335256]:eek:

:banana:[/QUOTE]

:djparty:party:

[QUOTE=97 bulls;14335220]But that's the thing. Its nots just me bro. I ask again, did you read the information Roundball Rock put out? He was clearly top 2-3 over 94-96. Based on All NBA, MVP, All defense and DPOY voting. Not to mention what the players were saying. Rodman wasnt the only one that felt that way about Pippen.[/QUOTE]

Top 2-3 is a stretch when you consider Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, and Malone. Not to mention MJ returned in 1995 and played in 1996.

Ewing in 1994 beat Chicago with Pippen. In 1995, Ewing led his team to 55 wins and the #3 seed.

Barkley's impact in both 1994 and 1995 can't be ignored either.

Also, I'm putting Penny above Pippen those years. Pippen has the clear advantage in 1994 as Penny was a rookie, but Penny outplayed Pippen in the 1995 and 1996 playoffs with comparable regular season production.

Remember, it was Pippen that guarded Penny in the '96 ECF and Penny dominated him.

mehya has a point in that he's top 8, maybe 9 if you throw in Kemp. People forget how well Kemp would play in the playoffs against elite competition.

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14335255]Everybody in that Bulls locker room knew scottie was the man. They FOLLOWED pippen. Pippen was the leader of that team with or without Jordan

Stats won't tell you this

But Rodman will[/QUOTE]

The Bulls discarded Jordan for Pete Myers and still won 55 games and could have made a Finals run if they got some type of upgrade for MJ instead of dirt nothing.

[QUOTE=ELITEpower23;14335314]The Bulls discarded Jordan for Pete Myers and still won 55 games and could have made a Finals run if they got some type of upgrade for MJ instead of dirt nothing.[/QUOTE]

it's not healthy talking to yourself

seek help

[QUOTE=ELITEpower23;14335314]The Bulls discarded Jordan for Pete Myers and still won 55 games and could have made a Finals run if they got some type of upgrade for MJ instead of dirt nothing.[/QUOTE]

Lebrons never played for a team that was even capable of winning 35 games without him

Levels to this GOAT shit my man.

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14335352]Lebrons never played for a team that was even capable of winning 35 games without him

Levels to this GOAT shit my man.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean? Miami won 45+ games in 2010.

[QUOTE=Axe;14335368]What do you mean? Miami won 45+ games in 2010.[/QUOTE]

Different team

Take lebron off in 2011 and that's a lottery squad imo

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14335352]Lebrons never played for a team that was even capable of winning 35 games without him

Levels to this GOAT shit my man.[/QUOTE]


Wade and AD won 48 in their last full season before Lebron became their Pippen in 11' and 20', respectively.

Then Lebron left Miami when they were already underperforming every Western playoff team in 2014, aka lottery-caliber in the West (they lost to the West by record amount)..

Then the Heat missed the 15' playoffs by 1/2 game due to Bosh/Wade missing 40 games.. But in 2016, Wade led the Heat back to contention and was a playoff star again.