top 5 players....is Dirk still there?

[QUOTE=mlh1981][IMG]http://www.cavshistory.com/images/players/ScotPollard.jpg[/IMG]

"what does a playa have to do to get on this list?"[/QUOTE]


Do drugs.

[QUOTE=TiMavericks21]I find it funny that everyone speaks so highly about Lebron and so poorly of Dirk. Did Dirk struggle in a playoff series. Absolutely, he got double and triple teamed and had a very poor series against a very hot team. Lebron James led the Cavs to the Finals in the terrible Eastern Conference. He played good up until the Finals and then what? He faded in the Finals just like Dirk did against the Warriors. Once SA sent double and triple teams at him, he struggled. Obviously Cleveland's loss to SA isn't comparable to Dallas against GS because it was the biggest upset in NBA history, but I just find it funny how all of you ignorant people who criticize Dirk define a player based upon 6 games. He went cold for 6 games. Apparently that drops him out of the so called "Top 5" when he's only led Dallas to to winning no less than 50 games since 2000, but no, it's these 6 games that should make his status completely plummet.[/QUOTE]
you neglect to mention Dirk has, 2 yrs running, been involved in 2 HISTORIC level upsets at this point

[quote]He faded in the Finals just like Dirk did against the Warriors.[/quote]
No. The Spurs were just better. Lebron played fine. Dirk played terribly.

[quote=TiMavericks21]I find it funny that everyone speaks so highly about Lebron and so poorly of Dirk. Did Dirk struggle in a playoff series. Absolutely, he got double and triple teamed and had a very poor series against a very hot team. Lebron James led the Cavs to the Finals in the terrible Eastern Conference. He played good up until the Finals and then what? He faded in the Finals just like Dirk did against the Warriors. Once SA sent double and triple teams at him, he struggled. Obviously Cleveland's loss to SA isn't comparable to Dallas against GS because it was the biggest upset in NBA history, but I just find it funny how all of you ignorant people who criticize Dirk define a player based upon 6 games. He went cold for 6 games. Apparently that drops him out of the so called "Top 5" when he's only led Dallas to to winning no less than 50 games since 2000, but no, it's these 6 games that should make his status completely plummet.[/quote]
First Lebron didn't have a good first two games in the finals but was pretty good for the rest. Dirk was horrible for the entire GS series. And Dirk was only the leader of the team when Nash left not since 2000. :rolleyes: Michael Finley anyone.

[QUOTE=Richie2k6]No. The Spurs were just better. Lebron played fine. Dirk played terribly.[/QUOTE]


No. LeBron was pretty bad, he shot 36/38% from the field and never really got in the flow.

[QUOTE=Free]No. LeBron was pretty bad, he shot 36/38% from the field and never really got in the flow.[/QUOTE]
He wasn't in the flow and he shot low from the field. He played better than Dirk, firstly. Secondly, his points, rebounds, and assists were all still there to add to it.

[QUOTE=Richie2k6]He wasn't in the flow and he shot low from the field. He played better than Dirk, firstly. Secondly, his points, rebounds, and assists were all still there to add to it.[/QUOTE]


I agree he played better than Dirk, but he was still pretty bad.

I say yes but really, once you get to the top 15 or so it really comes down to who is playing best at that moment.

[QUOTE=-primetime-]I think he is...

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Garnett
5. Dirk

then...

6. Nash
7. Wade
8. - 10. Melo, T-Mac, Amare, Iverson, Pierce, Arenas, Yao, ect. (whatever)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=-primetime-]1. LEEbron
2. Oden
3. Amare
4. Howard
5. Yao
6. Wade
7. Melo
8. Durant
9. Kobe
10. give me Yi here....yeah I said it...YI baby[/QUOTE]
dont see Dirk:wtf: :cheers: :roll: :banana:

[QUOTE]is Dirk still there? [/QUOTE]

He was never there in the first place.

I fail to see how Garnett is better than Dirk.

I think we are all a little harsh on the big guy. He did get to the finals a year ago and lead his team to 67 wins this year. You can say he choked till the cows come home, but at least he put himself in position to choke. It is pretty tough to get a rep for choking when you are home every year for the playoffs ala KG.

Dirk > KG

there is really no unbiased case to be made otherwise.

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Nash
Garnett
Dirk
Wade
Shaq
Kidd

[QUOTE=Richie2k6]Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett[/QUOTE]
That's right.

[QUOTE=Fluffy Bird]I fail to see how Garnett is better than Dirk.

I think we are all a little harsh on the big guy. He did get to the finals a year ago and lead his team to 67 wins this year. You can say he choked till the cows come home, but at least he put himself in position to choke. It is pretty tough to get a rep for choking when you are home every year for the playoffs ala KG.

Dirk > KG

there is really no unbiased case to be made otherwise.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: So his team had more success so there isn't a single "case" to be made otherwise.

Well, KG made the conference finals in 2004, while Dirk went home in the first round. Was KG "inarguably" better then as well? Or does that only apply when your player is winning?

[quote]I fail to see how Garnett is better than Dirk.[/quote]
Scoring - Dirk
Defense - Garnett
Blocking - Garnett
Stealing - Garnett
Passing- Garnett
Assisting - Garnett
Shooting - Dirk
Career Accolades - Garnett
Rebounding - Garnett

Garnett wins.
[quote]It is pretty tough to get a rep for choking when you are home every year for the playoffs ala KG.[/quote]
Last time I checked, The Mavericks have Josh Howard, Jason Terry, and Jerry Stackhouse to back up Dirk Nowitzki. The Timberwolves have...? Ricky Davis and a bad coach? That's what I thought.
[quote]there is really no unbiased case to be made otherwise.[/quote]
Sure there is. I'm not a Garnett or a Dirk fan, so I'm unbiased to the max.

[QUOTE=Richie2k6]Scoring - Dirk
Defense - Garnett
Blocking - Garnett
Stealing - Garnett
Passing- Garnett
Assisting - Garnett
Shooting - Dirk
Career Accolades - Garnett
Rebounding - Garnett

Garnett wins.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, "passing" and "assisting?" I think are the same thing, and career accolades are really an even split not. Regardless, Garnett still has far more talent than Dirk.

For example, you could add an Athleticism category:

Speed-Garnett
Jumping-Garnett
Quickness-Garnett
Stamina-Even

It really isn't close.



[QUOTE]Last time I checked, The Mavericks have Josh Howard, Jason Terry, and Jerry Stackhouse to back up Dirk Nowitzki. The Timberwolves have...? Ricky Davis and a bad coach? That's what I thought.[/QUOTE]

Give Foye some time, he'll be ok.

They do need a GM though to put together a real team together with a coach.

[QUOTE]Sure there is. I'm not a Garnett or a Dirk fan, so I'm unbiased to the max.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure he was just trolling now that I think about it...

[quote]To be fair, "passing" and "assisting?" I think are the same thing, and career accolades are really an even split not. Regardless, Garnett still has far more talent than Dirk.
[/quote]
Just for specificity:

Passing - Giving the ball to another teammate.
Assisting - Giving the ball to another teammate in a chance for them to score.
Playmaking - [b]Creating[/b] a scoring opportunity for another teammate.

That's how I've always personally looked at it. But let's not get into that.
[quote]I'm pretty sure he was just trolling now that I think about it...[/quote]
Pretty likely. :oldlol:

So you win MVP and you're not top 5? Makes perfect sense to me.

[QUOTE=Rameek]dont see Dirk:wtf: :cheers: :roll: :banana:[/QUOTE]
Dirk is 30 years old....too old to draft

[QUOTE=Orlando Magic]So you win MVP and you're not top 5? Makes perfect sense to me.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:

Read over the thread.

[QUOTE=Richie2k6]:rolleyes:

Read over the thread.[/QUOTE]

Is there really a need with such stupidity?

Shogon?

[QUOTE=Orlando Magic]Is there really a need with such stupidity?[/QUOTE]
Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Nash and Wade are all better than Dirk. So he isn't top 5, MVP or no MVP. Simple.

[QUOTE=Richie2k6]Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Nash and Wade are all better than Dirk. So he isn't top 5, MVP or no MVP. Simple.[/QUOTE]

Kobe, Nash & Wade are not better than Dirk.

Kobe & Wade getting in the zone are better than Dirk in the zone. On a nightly basis... I'll take Dirk over either of them, thank you.

If we're talking about what a player is capable of and has shown us before when they're hot and go on an assbeating streak of games or even just one game... and what they can STILL do, then I wouldn't put Dirk top 5 either.

But as far as game in, game out goes... Dirk is top 5.

1. Kobe
2. TD
3. LBJ
4. KG
5. [B]Dirk[/B]
6. Nash
7. Wade
8. Pierce
9. AI
10. T-Mac

HM
Amare, Anthony, Yao, Arenas, Boozer, Bosh

[quote]Kobe, Nash & Wade are not better than Dirk.[/quote]
:oldlol:
[quote]Kobe & Wade getting in the zone are better than Dirk in the zone. On a nightly basis... I'll take Dirk over either of them, thank you.[/quote]
I wouldn't.

This thread is infested with stupid people. Listen fellahs, the only real thing Dirk shines at in the NBA is offense. His offensive game is certainly top 5, most likely top 3.

But there is so many more little things, along with major things (defense, passing) that he's not great at. Or even above average. If he's not scoring he's not efecting the game like a top 5 player should and that limits his ability to put his mark on a game on a consistent basis.

I think Dirk is a top 3 player on offense. The other facets of the game is what brings him back out of the top 5. Things like leadership, his attitude, his clutch ability, his defense, etc.

[QUOTE=Carbine]
I think Dirk is a top 3 player on offense. The other facets of the game is what brings him back out of the top 5. Things like [B]leadership, his attitude[/B], his clutch ability, his defense, etc.[/QUOTE]
his leadership and attitude are fine..., and other than the GS series and maybe Miami he is clutch

[QUOTE=Richie2k6]Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Nash and Wade are all better than Dirk. So he isn't top 5, MVP or no MVP. Simple.[/QUOTE]
Dirk > Nash & Wade

but not Kobe, Lebron, or KG

[quote=Carbine]This thread is infested with stupid people. Listen fellahs, the only real thing Dirk shines at in the NBA is offense. His offensive game is certainly top 5, most likely top 3.

But there is so many more little things, along with major things (defense, passing) that he's not great at. Or even above average. If he's not scoring he's not efecting the game like a top 5 player should and that limits his ability to put his mark on a game on a consistent basis.

I think Dirk is a top 3 player on offense. The other facets of the game is what brings him back out of the top 5. Things like leadership, his attitude, his clutch ability, his defense, etc.[/quote]
Great post. Some people need see that Dirk does have flaws and puts him not in the top 5. He has horrible defense, just average rebounds for being 7 foot and gets abused in the post even though he is 7 foot. His offense is great but he doesn't really do anything else on an amazing level.

[QUOTE=-primetime-]his leadership and attitude are fine..., and other than the GS series and maybe Miami he is clutch[/QUOTE]
"If we lose this game, our season is pretty much over."

Nice positive attitude to carry over to your teammates, Dirk. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Rockets(T-mac)]Great post. Some people need see that Dirk does have flaws and puts him not in the top 5. He has horrible defense, just average rebounds for being 7 foot and gets abused in the post even though he is 7 foot. His offense is great but he doesn't really do anything else on an amazing level.[/QUOTE]
his defense is not "horrible", but it is not all star level either

he doesn't get 10+ rebounds because he is not an inside player

he is an outside shooter, he doesn't play in the post...why can't people understand that about dirk?

Duncan
Kobe
Wade
Lebron
Nash
KG
..
...
....
.....
Jason Terry
Dirk

[QUOTE=Richie2k6]"If we lose this game, our season is pretty much over."

Nice positive attitude to carry over to your teammates, Dirk. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
what he is saying is "we need to win this one guys".

he is just as good of a leader as either Lebron or Kobe...probably better.

there are only 2 legit knocks against Dirk here...

A. he choked against GS, and maybe Miami

B. he isn't an all star defensive player

and that is it.

[quote]he is an outside shooter, he doesn't play in the post...why can't people understand that about dirk?[/quote]
I can understand that. I don't, however, understand why he's so highly thought of. Big men shooters aren't as successful as big men post players.
[quote]what he is saying is "we need to win this one guys".
[/quote]
No, he's saying "If we lose this, our season is over." "But Dirk, isn't there still a chance after this game?" "Yeah, but we have no chance of coming back."

That's pretty much what he was saying and you know it. He was saying if they lose, they have no chance of coming back. I thought leaders never give up? :confusedshrug:
[quote]he is just as good of a leader as either Lebron or Kobe...probably better.[/quote]
No way in hell is he a better leader than Lebron James.
[quote]there are only 2 legit knocks against Dirk here...

A. he choked against GS, and maybe Miami

B. he isn't an all star defensive player

and that is it.[/quote]

- He choked against Golden State
- He will not be successful shooting from the arc all day
- His defense isn't good
- He isn't as great of a leader as an all-star MVP should be
- He disappears at big games
- He settles for jumpshots over midgets
- Dwyane Wade is better than him

There's tons of legitimate reasons. Those are just some of'em.

[QUOTE=Richie2k6]I can understand that. I don't, however, understand why he's so highly thought of. [B]Big men shooters [/B]aren't as successful as big men post players.
[/QUOTE]
Dirk is the first of his kind...

:roll:

[QUOTE=-primetime-]Dirk is the first of his kind...[/QUOTE]
What the hell? Did you just say Dirk is the first big man to be a shooter?

Dirk is not a top 5 player

[quote]he is an outside shooter, he doesn't play in the post...why can't people understand that about dirk?[/quote]

Oh people do understand it nd its one of the reasons Dirk isnt a top 5 player.

BBall fans have alot of trouble watching a 7 foot dude act like he is allergic to the painted area...

7 footers shooting 3's and perimeter just doesnt go over well with people who know bball..

even the best perimeter shooters shoot no better than 50% and for 3 pt shooters, 45% is very high... where as post players Fg% are in the 50s and
60s...

Dirk needs to toughen up and get a real post game.... getting locked down by guards and avoid the post is not good for guy like Dirk