Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

[QUOTE=Glove_20]

[B]Totals:


Kevin Johnson
142/280 50.7% 28.5ppg 10.6apg 11-5


John Stockton
96/192 50.0% 16.3ppg 12.7apg 5-11[/B]

[/QUOTE]

KJ > John

29/11 are some crazy numbers. And he even has the wins with him. I don't care how much John Helped, but numbers and wins are with KJ

[QUOTE=Glove_20]I think your still off.



1. First of all, interesting how you used "5.5" and "4.5" instead of straight up...



2. I am guessing the years you were talking about were 81-88

English's numbers:

26.9ppg
5.9rpg
4.6apg



And there are many players who have done that as long as the players you mentioned...


[B]Larry Bird, Julius Erving, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Elgin Baylor, and Rick Barry.[/B]


So yeah, you were off on how many players have done that...[b]10 others players beside Alex English[/b]


While with KJ, Oscar and Magic are the only 2. And MAGIC is the only who has exactly produced the 20/10/50% in peak, no one else. Oscar is right there too, because he produced similar. So really, its only MJ and KJ



3. Lastly, I just want to remind you. For PGs, passing is an important category. Scoring is too. SFs aren't like PGs where they have a category (passing) that they really have to produce well...So it would've been better if you used PGs only...or similar

Remember, I am talking about the most important categories, and this is PGs we are talking about, [B]you realize how important passing/efficiency is to PGs vs. rebounds/assists to SFs.[/B]




But yeah, English doesn't come close either. There are 10 other players who have done EXACTLY what he has. Magic is the only one who has done EXACTLY what KJ has done, and Oscar has come close[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure all those players you named didn't put up those numbers shooting 50% (or damn near close to it) from the field. Only Wilt, Kareem, MJ, along with Doc and Bird I already named did that for an 8 year span. That actually put's him in even more exclusive company then just Doc and Bird.


-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
-Larry Bird
-Wilt Chamberlain
-Alex English
-Julius Erving
-Michael Jordan


Who doesn't belong in that select group or does Alex Englsih just shoot up the All-Time rankings because he was consistant over an 8 season span?

Phoenix won more because they had a more talented team, so it's hard to measure that when doing a head to head matchup.

1992-1993 teams

Phoenix

Charles Barkley
Tom Chambers
Danny Ainge
Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Mark West
Oliver Miller
Richard Dumas
(the rest don't matter)

Utah

Karl Malone
Jeff Malone
John Stockton
Tyrone Corbin
Jay Humphries
David Benoit
Mike Brown
Mark Eaton
(rest don't matter)

And I still think you need to show the stats up until 96-97... because they were still in their primes, and it's going to even the numbers more, like coin flip does if you flip it enough times.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Really how many times am I supposed to explain this? Pointing out that most wouldnt put him highly doesnt mean im saying the majority is always right. But if what im being given to support it is a few people saying he IS that high pointing out that most wouldnt say it is not only reasonable its pretty much the only thing that needs to be said. I am shown articles with a couple reporters and a couple players saying how great he is. The top 50 list is 37 legends and coaches and more than a dozen longtime media members. Point of mentioning them is the same as his point of showing me what Barkley, Riley, and whoever else said.

[B]Neither opinion from either source proves it right. But he said it to show some people who believed one thing....I showed that a hell of a lot more(equally qialified) peoples combined opinions say otherwise.

Its the exact same thing just on a grander scale without the indidivual quote aspect.[/B]

Ive never said the top 50 list is actually the top 50 players. But when most of what I see to suggest KJ deserves to be ranked highly is a few peoples opinion showing 50 of the same kind of peoples combined opinion is relevant.

I dont think I could explain it clearer than that.[/QUOTE]

And that's just not true, not for the time period that I was referring to. Again, writers from across the country vote on the All-NBA Teams. Isiah Thomas last made one of those teams in 1987. In Thomas' last six seasons (1989-1994), during which time he played he played in three Eastern Conference Finals, played in two NBA Finals, won two NBA championships, and won an NBA Finals MVP, thus remaining a highly visible presence in the league, he did not make a single All-NBA Team. Kevin Johnson, conversely, made five All-NBA Teams during that time, including for All-NBA Second Teams. So obviously, the vast majority of basketball writers during that time believed that K.J. was more effective than Isiah Thomas, and I used a few quotations from prominent writers (or major players or coaches) in leadings publications to reflect that broader opinion.

Now of course, the writers are not always right, and K.J. proved underrated in many respects. For example, I believe that K.J. deserved a First Team guard slot over Latrell Sprewell in 1994. K.J. averaged 9.5 assists per game and shot .487 from the field and .819 from the free throw line (while averaging 20.0 points to lead all point guards that season), whereas Sprewell averaged 4.7 assists and shot .433 from the field and .774 from the free throw line (while averaging 21.0 points in sort of a "combination guard" role). And, sure enough, K.J. smoked Sprewell in the 1994 Western Conference First Round, averaging 26.7 points and 9.3 assists as the Suns swept the Warriors, 3-0 (Sprewell averaged 22.7 points and 7.0 assists, shooting .433 from the field). In that case, the regular season statistics didn't necessarily indicate that Sprewell was the superior guard, and the playoff matchup only affirmed the dubiety of the writers' selection.

But in the case of K.J. versus Thomas from 1989-1994, K.J. has the statistics on his side and it's frankly not even close. Over those six seasons combined, here are the respective averages, reflecting their mean season:

[B]Kevin Johnson:[/B] [I]20.4 points, 10.5 assists, .498 field goal percentage, .837 free throw percentage (7.2 attempts), 3.4 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 3.5 turnovers, 2.96:1.00 assists-to-turnovers ratio, 36.9 minutes, 71.0 regular season games. [/I]

[B]Isiah Thomas[/B]: [I]17.5 points, 8.3 assists, .438 field goal percentage, .766 free throw percentage, 3.3 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 2.27:1.00 assists-to-turnovers ratio, 35.8 minutes, 70.7 regular season games. [/I]

So in this particular case, the empirical evidence supports the writers' judgment and indicates that K.J. indeed played on Isiah Thomas' level (or actually a higher one) back then. And if you want popular affirmation of that indication, see the eight players that NBC selected for its original introduction video in '90-'91, its initial season of NBA coverage:

[B]Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson
Charles Barkley
Kevin Johnson
Karl Malone
Magic Johnson[/B]

You can see an example here:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYLhDC1mvJM[/url]

Again, a television video shouldn't be the final story, but it confirms the quotations, the All-NBA Teams, and most importantly, the statistics. Kevin Johnson was indeed a rival of Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, and John Stockton back then (note that NBC did not bother to select Stockton for the video), and not "just" Tim Hardaway. And indeed, he was a top-ten player of the era, which might have been the richest in NBA history.

Now, history has remembered Thomas more vividly, and understandably so because he won two championships. Let's remember, though, that basketball is a team game, and teams wins titles. As "rikemaru" of the ESPN general NBA message board has shrewdly noted, one might wonder how a team would win two titles while led by a star (Thomas) who was not an especially efficient player, in terms of his shooting percentage and his turnovers (or assists-to-turnovers ratios, which did not measure up to those of K.J., Stockton, or Magic). After all, all of the stars who've led their respective clubs to multiple championships since the dawn of the eighties, namely Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Larry Bird, have been extremely efficient. The same was true, in fact, for other championship superstars such as Moses Malone, Bill Walton, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Willis Reed and Walt Frazier, and Wilt Chamberlain.

One must then contemplate why Thomas (career .452 field goal percentage, 3.8 turnovers per game) and Bob Cousy, who shot .375 from the field for his career and not once reached .400, combined for eight championships whereas K.J. and Stockton combined for zero despite being vastly more efficient from the field and free throw line and taking better care of the ball than "Zeke" (K.J. shot .493 from the field for his career and averaged 3.1 turnovers, while Stockton shot .515 from the field for his career and averaged 2.8 turnovers). K.J. (.841) and Stockton (.826) also shot much better from the free throw line than Thomas (.759), and K.J. and Thomas proved virtually equal in combining scoring and playmaking (from 1989-1997, K.J. averaged 19.8 points and 10.0 assists, and from 1983-1991, Thomas averaged 20.1 points and 9.9 assists). They were also similarly brilliant in the postseason, with [I]The Sporting News [/I] naming both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s, behind Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler on the First Team. So given that seeming equality, what put Thomas and Cousy over the top, especially in light of their relative inefficiency?

The answer, of course, lies with their teammates. Unlike Stockton and certainly K.J., Cousy and Thomas enjoyed tremendous defensive support behind them. Cousy had Bill Russell, the greatest shot-blocker and defender of all-time, and Thomas had the toughest defensive team of his era, one marked by a bedrock front line featuring Bill Laimbeer, James Edwards, Rick Mahorn (for the first title), John Salley, and Dennis Rodman. As "rikemaru" has correctly noted, you can afford to be more inefficient offensively if your team can stop the opposition consistently enough, and that helps explain the vast discrepancy in rings between Cousy and Thomas on the one hand and Stockton and K.J. on the other.

That irony brings me back to the original point about considering K.J. in the twenties among history's greatest players. As "Glove" stated, realistically, his injuries push him back into the thirties, but the point is the ambiguity of the matter. Basketball is a team sport, and the amount of factors necessary to win a championships is multitudinous. Henceforth, ranking players individually almost becomes a juvenile exercise, or at least a fallacious, artificial, and potentially misleading one. Now, there are some players, namely the top-ten in history, who proved so dominant and effective that they stand out dramatically and almost transcend their context. Indeed, you could use any as a franchise player and probably still be able to put together a championship-caliber club. For me, those top-ten are as follows in alphabetical order:

[B]Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell [/B]

However, even there, championships are not guaranteed unless the player is surrounded by the right supporting talent. Oscar Robertson missed the playoffs entirely in his last three seasons in Cincinnati and failed to lead his club to a winning season in the last four, even though he played with another Hall of Famer in Jerry Lucas and other talented guys such as Happy Hairston. He then won a championship with Lew Alcindor (soon Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) in Milwaukee in 1971, but Kareem wasn't invincible, either. When Robertson retired in 1974, Milwaukee instantly collapsed from 59 wins and Game Seven of the NBA Finals to 38 wins and missing the playoffs entirely. In fact, in Abdul-Jabbar's five seasons without either Robertson or Magic Johnson (1975-1979), his teams won 50 games just once, won one division title, and reached a conference final once. Once again, basketball is very much a team game and should largely be judged as such.

By the time that you move from the top-ten to the top-twenty, the matter of which players were most effective and would give you the best chance to win becomes extremely murky. For instance, I would probably place John Havlicek in the top-twenty and ahead of K.J., but one could make a case for K.J. if starting a virtual team. Sure, Havlicek won eight championships in his career, but one could argue that he was never the best player on any of those clubs. He won his championships with MVP centers in Bill Russell (in the sixties) and Dave Cowens (in the seventies), guys whose presence on defense and on the boards helped compensate for the fact that Havlicek was not a terribly efficient player (he shot .439 for his career). In the one season where Havlicek did not play with either Russell or Cowens (1970), he led the Celtics to all of 34 wins as they missed the playoffs and finished with the fourth-worst record in the NBA. So if you put him, instead of K.J., on the '88-'89 Suns as the team's leading playmaker, a team that was defensively soft across its front line, would they necessarily have been better? Could they not have been worse?

The bottom line is that because it's so ambiguous, uncertain, and close, once you reach beyond the top 15-20 players of all-time, you can go in any number of directions in determining who was the best. It may actually be impossible or implausible to render a "pure," isolated judgment, and it may become necessary to weight context and contingencies such as who the player's teammates might be, what kind of style the team will be running, and what kind of competition will emerge (head-to-head matchups), or whether you're looking more for a championship run or longevity (especially in the case of someone such as Bill Walton or George Mikan), scoring or defense, playmaking or rebounding, a guard or a big man.

The 11-31 players might look something as follows, again in alphabetical order.

[B]Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Dave Cowens
Clyde Drexler
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
Elvin Hayes
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
George Mikan
Bob McAdoo
Bob Pettit
Scottie Pippen
Willis Reed
David Robinson
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Bill Walton
Jerry West[/B]

But even so, K.J. should have a great, safe case for the thirties, and the point is that one could start to consider him in the twenties. As I've revealed, it's really not clear that Isiah Thomas or John Havlicek was a more effective player than K.J., but they played with the kinds of teammates who gave them a better chance at a championship. And consider that until Tim Duncan arrived, David Robinson actually led a team to less success than K.J., even before Barkley arrived in Phoenix (and Robinson did play with talented teammates such as Dennis Rodman, Sean Elliot, Terry Cummings, and Rod Strickland). Nor was it ever clear that John Stockton would give you a better chance at a championship than Kevin Johnson, especially in light of their head-to-head competition. During a 14-game regular season stretch beginning in the spring of 1989 and ending in the fall of 1993, K.J. averaged 30 points and 11 assists per game (shooting 52% from the field) against Stockton as the Suns went 10-4 versus the Jazz (and two of those losses came by one point each, so it easily could have been 12-2). Here are the box scores for the 14 consecutive head-to-head matchups over that time period:

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19890405.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900214.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19900313.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900409.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19901102.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19901103.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19910206.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19910402.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19911130&tm=phx[/url]

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19920131&tm=uta[/url]

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19920301&tm=phx[/url]

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19920403&tm=uta[/url]

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1992&b=19930411&tm=phx[/url]

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19931127&tm=phx[/url]

Here are the final statistical tallies for that span of four-and-a-half years:

[B]Kevin Johnson: [/B][I]30.4 points, 10.8 assists, .518 field goal percentage (18.4 FGA), .881 free throw percentage (12.6 FTA), 2.1 rebounds, 1.8 steals, 4.4 turnovers, 2.44:1.00 assists-to-turnovers, 40.6 minutes, Suns 10-4[/I]

[B]John Stockton:[/B] [I]16.4 points, 12.5 assists, .500 field goal percentage (12.1 FGA), .879 free throw percentage (4.1 FTA), 2.7 rebounds, 1.9 steals, 3.3 turnovers, 3.80:1.00 assists-to-turnovers, 37.6 minutes, Jazz 4-10[/I]

As "Bizzle" on ESPN's NBA board, a Lakers' fan since the 1960s who saw Bill Russell play live, has stated, he likes Stockton better, but he would take K.J. And of course, the reason is that K.J. could dominate the game with scoring in a way that Stockton simply could not. Indeed, it's thus hardly surprising that K.J. first reached the Western Conference Finals in his second NBA season and his first as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his sixth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, whereas Stockton first reached the Western Conference Finals in his eighth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his thirteenth NBA season and his tenth as a full-time starter. Frankly, one could go either way, but for at least half the guys on that 11-32 list that I presented, it's not clear that they were more effective than K.J. or would be a better choice for your team, and the question would frankly depend on what you needed and other contextual factors.

You can think of a top-player of all-time list as being akin to a historical draft, and the idea in this situation is that you would draft based on the best player available, that that's what the list would represent. But once you reach the 15-20 range, it's really not clear who was the best, and many of the cases are so close than one could go either way, or in multiple ways. To pretend other wise is to falsify the situation in fallacious simplicity. Even if you look at K.J. versus Drexler, the answer to which player you should choose really ought to come down to whether you need a point guard or a shooting guard, a supreme playmaker or a supreme wing player. To say that one was simply superior to the other is incorrect and simplifies and the complexity of a team sport. Remember, we're talking five-on-five basketball, not tennis or golf. Likewise, the players in the Hall of Fame may not always be the most effective ones, or the ones who'll create the greatest winning impact. Dominique Wilkins is in the Hall of Fame, and Kevin Johnson is not, but Wilkins never played in a single conference finals, not once. I know that the competition was rough in the Eastern Conference of the 1980s, but Wilkins played fifteen NBA seasons. I believe that he deserves his Hall of Fame plaque, but I also know that if I'm starting a team with the hopes of making a championship run, I'm taking Kevin Johnson without question.

The point is that these questions and debates are complex, ambiguous, and worthy of various perspectives rather than simplistic standards or reactionary retorts. That's the nature of a team sport, and to not be open-minded would, as Charles Barkley might have said during his deodorant commercial days, be uncivilized.

one question for all you stat afficianatoes here:

Do you factor in the style of play that was prevelant during GP and KJ's era in the Western Conference?

it was high scoring and minimal defense, with lots of open court play benifiting the stats of the pg.

Do you factor in the run and gun style of play employed by both the Suns and Sonics of that era?

Comparing stats between KJ and Isiah is a waste of time because of the teams style of play.

Here is the only stat you need and it is rings:

Zeke-2
KJ - 0

Isiah could have easily been much more 'efficient' and had much prettier stats had he been in KJ's spot in Phoenix, because of the style of play.

Quit whoring these asinine stats when you dont explain the realities of how they came to fruition, because without context they mean nothing.

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]Phoenix won more because they had a more talented team, so it's hard to measure that when doing a head to head matchup.

1992-1993 teams

Phoenix

Charles Barkley
Tom Chambers
Danny Ainge
Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Mark West
Oliver Miller
Richard Dumas
(the rest don't matter)

Utah

Karl Malone
Jeff Malone
John Stockton
Tyrone Corbin
Jay Humphries
David Benoit
Mike Brown
Mark Eaton
(rest don't matter)

And I still think you need to show the stats up until 96-97... because they were still in their primes, and it's going to even the numbers more, like coin flip does if you flip it enough times.[/QUOTE]

Regarding 1993, you're talking about just one season. Overall, the Suns and Jazz averaged close to the same amount of wins during that era, but the difference was that K.J. dominated Stockton head-to-head, not just in wins, but in the individual matchup (thus leading to the wins). See my previous post where I provide detailed aggregate statistics and box scores.

In the mid-nineties, that trend started to lessen, in part because the Suns' perimeter shooting around K.J. began to decline and thus allowed Utah to help Stockton more readily by running multiple defenders at Johnson to cut him off, without paying as much of a price. Besides, by the '95-'96 season, the Jazz possessed a vastly better team than the Suns (examine the records), not because K.J. had fallen off [I]vis-a-vis [/I]Stockton, but because of Utah's superior stability and shrewd development of its supporting cast.

[QUOTE=JtotheIzzo]one question for all you stat afficianatoes here:

Do you factor in the style of play that was prevelant during GP and KJ's era in the Western Conference?

it was high scoring and minimal defense, with lots of open court play benifiting the stats of the pg.

Do you factor in the run and gun style of play employed by both the Suns and Sonics of that era?

Comparing stats between KJ and Isiah is a waste of time because of the teams style of play.

Here is the only stat you need and it is rings:

Zeke-2
KJ - 0

Isiah could have easily been much more 'efficient' and had much prettier stats had he been in KJ's spot in Phoenix, because of the style of play.

Quit whoring these asinine stats when you dont explain the realities of how they came to fruition, because without context they mean nothing.[/QUOTE]

LOL, you're the one who doesn't understand, because until the late eighties, Isiah Thomas ran the run-and-gun in Detroit (the Pistons averaged 117.1 points in 1984, 116.0 in 1985, 114.1 in 1986, and 111.2 in 1987, and they took part in the highest-scoring game in NBA history on December 13, 1983, a 186-184 victory over Denver in which Thomas scored 47 points). While running the run-and-gun, he posted the same kinds of scoring and playmaking averages as K.J. in the run-and-gun, but with less efficiency.

[B]Isiah Thomas, 1984-1987 [/B](his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

[I]21.0 points, 11.5 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals, .467 field goal percentage, .774 free throw percentage, 3.9 turnovers, 2.97:1.00 assists-to-turnovers[/I]

[B]Kevin Johnson, 1989-1992 [/B](his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):
[I]
21.2 points, 11.1 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.6 steals, .500 field goal percentage, .843 free throw percentage, 3.6 turnovers, 3.07:1.00 assists-to-turnovers[/I]

In their greatest four-season stretches, Thomas' assists-to-turnovers ratio proved a little worse than K.J.'s, he averaged more turnovers per game and, more importantly, he was still much more inefficient from the field and the free throw line. What Detroit head coach Chuck Daly discovered was that because of Thomas' relative inefficiencies (relative to other superstars of his era), it did not pay to have him shooting as often and dominating the offense as much in a fast-paced game. The Pistons could only win a championship if Daly turned the roster into a defense-oriented squad that could stymie the opposition and thus compensate for his leader's inefficiencies. Henceforth, out went the offensive-minded Kelly Tripucka, in came defense-first players such as Dennis Rodman and John Salley, and by 1988, the Pistons were averaging fewer than 110 points per game and reaching the NBA Finals.

You're the one who cannot comprehend context if you simplistically break out the "two rings to none" argument. As I explained earlier in one of my posts a few minutes ago, basketball is a team sport, not an individual one. Isiah Thomas, like Bob Cousy, won championships not just because he was a great player and a clutch player (which he was), but because he enjoyed the defensive support that could compensate for his inefficiencies and that is typically necessary to win championships. Thomas won two rings to K.J.'s none largely because his team context was more conducive to championship basketball, not because he was necessarily the greater individual player. As I've noted, in 1998, [I]The Sporting News [/I] named both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s. [B]Thomas and K.J. played in three career Game Sevens each, and here were their respective statistics in those winner-take-all Game Sevens.[/B]

[B]Isiah Thomas:[/B] [I]18.7 points, 9.0 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, .368 field goal percentage (19.0 FGA), .200 three-point field goal percentage (1.7 FGA), .765 free throw percentage (5.7 FTA), 2.0 turnovers, 4.50:1.00 assists-to-turnovers[/I]

[B]Kevin Johnson:[/B] [I]31.0 points, 10.0 assists, 2.3 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .424 field goal percentage (19.7 FGA), .250 three-point field goal percentage (1.3 FGA), .933 free throw percentage (15.0 FTA), 2.7 turnovers, 3.75:1.00 assists-to-turnovers[/I]

And all three of K.J.'s Game Sevens came with Barkley on his team, whereas Thomas never played with someone who dominated the ball quite to Barkley's degree. And, sure, Thomas had the bum ankle in Game Seven of the 1988 NBA Finals versus the Lakers, but then people fault K.J. for getting hurt. (By the way, Thomas' and K.J.'s teams each went 1-2 in those Game Sevens, again proving that basketball is a team sport. In the two Game Sevens that K.J.'s Suns lost, Johnson averaged 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage, shooting 28-29 from the line. However, no matter how great the individual player's performance, it is still a team sport.)

So K.J. was every bit the clutch player that Thomas was, and don't be a "rings whore" who ignores team context. Also, after Barkley arrived in Phoenix, K.J. could not run-and-gun as much because the Suns moved to a post-up offense, and as the 1990s progressed, the entire NBA became more slowly paced, especially compared to Thomas' statistical heyday in the trigger-happy mid-1980s. Don't pretend that you comprehend context if you don't.

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]I don't know how to explain what I saw... Perhaps the numbers would show that KJ was great at dishing assists the first 3 quarters and then had the ball 80% of the time in the fourth.. But I recall him holding the ball a lot, over-dribbling or something... I don't know how to describe it or make an argument for it. There's a formula out there somewhere that would explain it though.

I'm not calling him selfish exactly... But, when [B]comparing him to Stockton[/B] (You neglected to show his ratio btw), he did look like a ballhog. I mean... that was more his game, and suited his style, but I also felt that Stockton would have got all of Johnson's teammates more involved and made them better. KJ didn't set screen's anywhere near as good as Stockton did, for example.[/QUOTE]

Of course Stockton was more pass-first than K.J., so what? The fact that K.J. could take over games in the fourth quarter when Stockton could or would not was an asset, because sometimes that's what you need to do as a star. He was not a ball-hog (look at his efficiency, and his shot attempts were about the same as Magic Johnson's), but he did know how to step up and take over a game at will when the Suns needed it, and that quality gave K.J. a deeply valuable dimension that Stockton generally lacked. As I noted earlier, there's a reason why K.J. first reached the Western Conference Finals in his second NBA season and his first as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his sixth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, whereas Stockton first reached the Western Conference Finals in his eighth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his thirteenth NBA season and his tenth as a full-time starter. It's a good thing that Stockton's longevity proved so great, because otherwise he might never have achieved the same playoff success as K.J.

Also, the fact that Stockton was more pass-first than K.J. didn't mean that K.J. didn't also pass quite a bit and make his teammates better. Let me quote an earlier part of the thread (one of my earlier posts) in my next post.

K.J. had a lot to do with some of those All-Star appearances by his teammates. Hornacek made his only All-Star Game playing next to K.J. in 1992, even though he later spent six-and-a-half seasons alongside John Stockton in Utah's backcourt. Dan Majerle never averaged as many as 11.0 points in his seven seasons after leaving K.J., immediately dropping from 15.6 with Phoenix in 1995 to 10.6 in Cleveland in 1996. Part of that decline can be explained by Majerle playing fewer minutes on a new team, but he was still just 30 years old and could have played more had his new coaching staff deemed him effective enough. Without K.J., though, that wasn't the case, even though Majerle had joined one of the better point guards of the day in Terrell Brandon (and later Tim Hardaway in Miami). Still, he couldn't come close to duplicating his success alongside K.J. in Phoenix.

As for Tom Chambers, he'd made one All-Star Game in seven seasons prior to joining K.J., but he then made the All-Star team three years in a row as soon as he started running with Johnson. Check out these K.J.-Chambers hook-ups:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/for...c&daysprune=-1[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_jBW...elated&search=[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN4-b...elated&search=[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBS...elated&search=[/url]

And Eddie Johnson received his only NBA honor (1989 Sixth Man of the Year) playing next to K.J.

Let me also quote a recent post of mine on another board to reveal more about the K.J.-Chambers dynamic and how K.J. had made the Sixers' "Barkley haul" (Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) seem quite attractive at the time.

...

In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999.

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/news/column_...av=ArticleList[/url]

Playing with K.J. allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-season scoring average record two years in a row with 25.7 in 1989 and 27.2 in 1990, the latter mark remaining a franchise record. Playing with K.J. also allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-game scoring record with 60 points, just a month after scoring 56.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19900324.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/...W19900218.html[/url]

Conversely, Shawn Kemp never averaged 20.0 points per game with Payton, a mark that he surely would have reached with K.J. Or look at the three players whom Phoenix dealt to Philadelphia in the Charles Barkley blockbuster of June 1992. On the surface, it seemed as if the Sixers were receiving quite a haul of talent, three starters off a 53-win team (Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) who had shot the following respective field goal percentages during the '92 season: .512, .523, .522. Three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field should have helped the Sixers. However, as Philadelphia soon found out, those players were not nearly as effective once removed from K.J., even though Hornacek was a fine guard either way. Indeed, in Philadelphia in '93, Hornacek, Perry, and Lang shot just .470, .468, and .425 from the field, respectively. Perhaps the Sixers should have listened to Clyde Drexler after Perry scored 27 points in Game Three of the 1992 Western Conference Semifinals, with K.J. posting 16 points and 16 assists after going for 35 points (including 18 in a row, 22 in the third quarter, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line) in Game Two and before recording 35 points and 14 assists in Game Four. Here was Drexler's quotation in the Los Angeles Times.
[I]
[B]Johnson and Hornacek Put Run, Fun in Suns; [Home Edition] Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1992. pg. 5 [/I]

Kevin Johnson, who runs the Phoenix offense, had 16 points and 16 assists.

"We ran up and down the court, and I found (Tim) Perry open, and pretty soon it just opened up for everybody," Johnson said

... "I don't think we stopped Kevin (Johnson) because he was able to get the ball to Perry and those other guys. I believe he might as well have scored Perry's 27 points," Drexler said. [/B]

K.J. actually made Perry seem like an attractive commodity to Philadelphia.

I'll also quote Hornacek's letter to K.J. in 2001:
[B]
I also want to thank you for helping to make my career what it was. I wasn't happy at first ... Cotton made you the point guard without even having to beat me out, but obviously he knew what he was doing! I learned quickly, as did everyone else who has had the privilege of playing along side of you, that my game would benefit from having you at point guard. You are one of few players who can elevate the play of those around you.[/B]

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnso...av=ArticleList[/url]

[QUOTE=GMATCallahan]LOL, you're the one who doesn't understand, because until the late eighties, Isiah Thomas ran the run-and-gun in Detroit (the Pistons averaged 117.1 points in 1984, 116.0 in 1985, 114.1 in 1986, and 111.2 in 1987, and they took part in the highest-scoring game in NBA history on December 13, 1983, a 186-184 victory over Denver in which Thomas scored 47 points). While running the run-and-gun, he posted the same kinds of scoring and playmaking averages as K.J. in the run-and-gun, but with less efficiency.

[B]Isiah Thomas, 1984-1987 [/B](his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

[I]21.0 points, 11.5 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals, .467 field goal percentage, .774 free throw percentage, 3.9 turnovers, 2.97:1.00 assists-to-turnovers[/I]

[B]Kevin Johnson, 1989-1992 [/B](his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):
[I]
21.2 points, 11.1 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.6 steals, .500 field goal percentage, .843 free throw percentage, 3.6 turnovers, 2.98:1.00 assists-to-turnovers[/I]

In their greatest four-season stretches, Thomas' assists-to-turnovers ratio was close to the same as K.J.'s, but he still averaged more turnovers per game and, more importantly, was still much more inefficient from the field and the free throw line. What Detroit coach Chuck Daly discovered was that because of Thomas' relative inefficiencies (relative to other superstars of his era), it did not pay to have him shooting as often and dominating the offense as much in a fast-paced game. The Pistons could only win a championship if Daly turned the roster into a defense-oriented squad that could stymie the opposition and thus compensate for his leader's inefficiencies. Henceforth, out went the offensive-minded Kelly Tripucka, in came defense-first players such as Dennis Rodman and John Salley, and by 1988, the Pistons were averaging fewer than 110 points per game and reaching the NBA Finals.

You're the one who cannot comprehend context if you simplistically break out the "two rings to none" argument. As I explained earlier in one of my posts a few minutes ago, basketball is a team sport, not an individual one. Isiah Thomas, like Bob Cousy, won championships not just because he was a great player and a clutch player (which he was), but because he enjoyed the defensive support that could compensate for his inefficiencies and that is typically necessary to win championships. Thomas won two rings to K.J.'s none largely because his team context was more conducive to championship basketball, not because he was necessarily the greater individual player. As I've noted, in 1998, [I]The Sporting News [/I] named both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s. [B]Thomas and K.J. played in three career Game Sevens each, and here were their respective statistics in those winner-take-all Game Sevens.[/B]

[B]Isiah Thomas:[/B] [I]18.7 points, 9.0 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, .368 field goal percentage (19.0 FGA), .200 three-point field goal percentage (1.7 FGA), .765 free throw percentage (5.7 FTA), 2.0 turnovers, 4.50:1.00 assists-to-turnovers[/I]

[B]Kevin Johnson:[/B] [I]31.0 points, 10.0 assists, 2.3 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .424 field goal percentage (19.7 FGA), .250 three-point field goal percentage (1.3 FGA), .933 free throw percentage (15.0 FTA), 2.7 turnovers, 3.75:1.00 assists-to-turnovers[/I]

And all three of K.J.'s Game Sevens came with Barkley on his team, whereas Thomas never played with someone who dominated the ball quite to Barkley's degree. And, sure, Thomas had the bum ankle in Game Seven of the 1988 NBA Finals versus the Lakers, but then people fault K.J. for getting hurt. (By the way, Thomas' and K.J.'s teams each went 1-2 in those Game Sevens, again proving that it's a team sport. In the two Game Sevens that K.J.'s Suns lost, Johnson averaged 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage, shooting 28-29 from the line. However, no matter how great the individual player's performance, it is still a team sport.)

So K.J. was every bit the clutch player that Thomas was, and don't be a "rings whore" who ignores team context. Also, after Barkley arrived in Phoenix, K.J. could not run-and-gun as much because the Suns moved to a post-up offense, and as the 1990s progressed, the entire NBA became more slowly paced, especially compared to Thomas' statistical heyday in the trigger-happy mid-1980s. Don't pretend that you comprehend context if you don't.[/QUOTE]

whew! Do you think you could just link an audio book next time? I hope you didn't write the essay portion of your GMAT in a similar manner.

YOU STILL WILL NOT acknowledge that the Western Conference was WAY more wide open back in those days and much less physical than the East. The lanes were much less clogged and this directly contributes to KJs higher field goal percentage.

You also act like having Barkley on the team hurt KJ. This is ridiculous. It opened up the floor for KJ and occupied the helpside defense. Zeke was also the primary threat on his team, KJ had his best years as second fiddle.


thinking KJ>Zeke is the retarded musing of a homer fan and you can use all the cross statistical analysis you want it just doesn't add up.

you're wrong.

Also see the following quotation from Tom Chambers (the one who called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am"), and note how talks about K.J. liking to distribute the ball:

[B]Cesmat: [/B][I]Tom, think back to Kevin Johnson, when you first started playing alongside him. What were your thoughts of this kid? [/I]

[B]Chambers:[/B] [I]Well, it brought a smile to my face, first of all. He was enthusiastic, energetic. He had skills, he could jump, [B]he liked to distribute the ball. [/B]He could shoot it. I mean, he was just a really, really complete athlete. And most of all, he liked to run. He was always running. And to clear up one more thing, I wouldn't have come to Phoenix without Kevin Johnson being here ... I wanted to come here and be on a young, running team with some enthusiasm and go from ground zero where we were starting from to getting ourselves back to an elite team. [B]So it was just awesome playing with Kevin. [/B][/I]

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnson_roundtable_010306.html[/url]

Indeed, in seven seasons before joining K.J. in Phoenix in 1988, the 29-year old Chambers had made one All-Star Team and zero All-NBA Teams. In his first three years with K.J., however, Chambers made three All-Star Teams and two All-NBA Second Teams. Playing with K.J. actually turned Chambers into a top-ten NBA player for a couple years. It's no wonder then, that in 2001, Chambers (who later played with Stockton in Utah for two seasons) claimed that he would rather take passes from K.J. than Stockton.

[B]jake tempe [/B]from [63.230.193.1], at 2:37pm ET
[I]if you had to pick one!!! who would you rather get the ball from?? kj or john stockton?[/I]

[B]
Tom Chambers[/B]
at 2:38pm ET
[I]KJ for sure. He was always looking for me and I was his number one priority.[/I]

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/interactive/chambers_transcript_010306.html[/url]

But what was great about K.J. was that he could play both ways, and when his teammates weren't doing anything, he could take over himself. As Chambers also stated in that chat:

[B]Kevin was very good -- there aren't many point guards who are capable of that kind of thing. Isiah Thomas could do it every night, but beyond that, they're tough to find. I would compare those two a lot. Kevin was the most explosive guard I've seen and he could just take over a game almost at will. There are very few players like that who have played the point guard position. [/B]

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/interactive/chambers_transcript_010306.html[/url]

Indeed, that 1992 Western Conference Semifinals series with Portland, the one that I referenced in the previous post, is a perfect example of how K.J. could and would adjust his game from the point guard position based on the context of the competition and the needs of his team (K.J. always did what the team needed to win, whether it was passing or scoring, depending on what the situation called for).

In Game Two of that series, the Suns were down big at halftime and K.J. had scored just 2 points. With his team desperate, K.J. didn't just lay back and play passively, watching his team lose while his teammates couldn't do anything. In the third quarter, he scored 22 points, including 18 in a row, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line. Although the Suns lost, they made it a close game and actually took the lead at one point. (That's something that Stockton, for example, would or could not do in Game Three of 1998 NBA Finals: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/CHI19980607.html[/url].)

In Game Three, K.J. found Tim Perry early and often and went for 16 points and 16 assists as the Suns won. In Game Four, K.J. both scored and passed prolificly, posting 35 points and 14 assists before fouling out in the second overtime as the Suns lost, 153-151.

To quote "musictoad," a Stockton fan from the ESPN NBA general message board:

[B]KJ was explosive, plain and simple, but had all the nuances essential for being a good set up guard as well as a scoring guard. [/B]

[url]http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=nba&id=general&tid=1153830&tsn=61[/url]

That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell, and helps explain why K.J.'s points and assists were so high, and why he wasn't much less efficient than Stockton. One of the criticisms of Stockton was that sometimes, he was so busy playing his "pure," textbook point guard role that he wouldn't always take the shots when they were there or when he was the team's best option. Obviously, he would at times, but especially early in his career, people felt that he wasn't aggressive enough and thus couldn't do as much as K.J. or Isiah Thomas (although Thomas, unlike K.J., was more inefficient).

wow, you sourced a first person testimonial from an adoring teammate.:applause: It is really difficult to get a teammate to say nice things about another teammate to the media.

How did you ever find such a thing.

There it is right there, all the proof you need:hammerhead:

KJ is waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Zeke.

Case closed. KJ is the GOAT

I guess I will move on now, those sappy words from TC have me dripping with affection for KJ, I will never try to say Isiah is better than KJ ever again.

ever!

thank you for showing me the error in my ways.:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=JtotheIzzo]whew! Do you think you could just link an audio book next time? I hope you didn't write the essay portion of your GMAT in a similar manner.

YOU STILL WILL NOT acknowledge that the Western Conference was WAY more wide open back in those days and much less physical than the East. The lanes were much less clogged and this directly contributes to KJs higher field goal percentage.

You also act like having Barkley on the team hurt KJ. This is ridiculous. It opened up the floor for KJ and occupied the helpside defense. Zeke was also the primary threat on his team, KJ had his best years as second fiddle.


thinking KJ>Zeke is the retarded musing of a homer fan and you can use all the cross statistical analysis you want it just doesn't add up.

you're wrong.[/QUOTE]

I do not think that K.J. was better Thomas. I do think that they were on the same level and I use empirical evidence to support my case, and if that's a crime, sue me.

Having Barkley on the team did not hurt K.J. as an overall player or threat, but it did slow the Suns' offense down a little and took the ball out of K.J.'s hands to some degree, hence explaining the drop in his numbers. In the four years prior to Barkley's arrival (1989-1992), K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage. In his four years with Barkley, K.J. averaged 17.8 points, 8.7 assists, and a .491 field goal percentage, still terrific statistics but ones that aren't as spectacular. Instead of running down the court at fast to stop-and-pop the jumper, K.J. would slow it up more often and wait for Barkley because the Suns were running a post-up offense. The floor was actually more open in Phoenix before Barkely arrived, because there was no one to hold the ball in the post for an eternity and slowly dribble while everyone else stood around watching. Barkley made the team better overall, but he certainly rendered the Suns' offense less fluid and a bit more clogged. Before Barkley, the Suns had enough shooters to open up the floor for K.J.

The Western Conference was more open than the East in, say, the early 1990s. In the mid-1980s, when Thomas was at his statistical peak, that wasn't necessarily the case, at least not for Detroit. If everything was so clogged, then how do you explain that the mid-eighties Pistons averaged about as many points as K.J.'s Suns did in the late eighties and early nineties? In fact, the 1985 Pistons featured a faster "pace factor" (107.7) than the '89 Suns (107.2).

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=DET&lg=n&yr=1984[/url]

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=PHO&lg=n&yr=1988[/url]

In other words, Thomas was playing a slightly faster game because the NBA was even more up-tempo in the mid-eighties, and the faster the game, the less clogged the court.

And K.J. was more efficient than a peak Thomas even in the mid-to-late nineties (say, 1996 and 1997), when the West was more slowly paced than the East had been in the mid-1980s. In '96, when K.J. shot .507 from the field, the Suns' "pace factor" was only 96.1.

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=PHO&lg=n&yr=1995[/url]

In '97, when he shot .496 from the field, Phoenix's "pace factor" was just 95.8.

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=PHO&lg=n&yr=1996[/url]

But when the 1985 Pistons were playing at a "pace factor" of 107.7, Thomas shot just .458 from the field.

In other words, the game of the mid-to-late nineties (even in the West) was much slower and more defensive-oriented than it had been during Thomas' mid-eighties statistical peak (even in the East), and yet K.J. was still far more efficient. That doesn't mean that he was necessarily the better player in the scope of basketball history, but it is an area where Johnson held an advantage.

[QUOTE=JtotheIzzo]wow, you sourced a first person testimonial from an adoring teammate.:applause: It is really difficult to get a teammate to say nice things about another teammate to the media.

How did you ever find such a thing.

There it is right there, all the proof you need:hammerhead:

KJ is waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Zeke.

Case closed. KJ is the GOAT

I guess I will move on now, those sappy words from TC have me dripping with affection for KJ, I will never try to say Isiah is better than KJ ever again.

ever!

thank you for showing me the error in my ways.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Again, I do not think that K.J. was better than Thomas, just that they were on the same level. What's more, I have not just used quotations but also extensive statistics. First you damn me for empirical evidence, and now you damn me for personal testimonials? :)

Besides, I was actually using Chambers' quotations to reveal K.J.'s tendencies as a point guard and how they would vary based on what the team needed. I wasn't using them to make any comment about Isiah.

[QUOTE=GMATCallahan]Again, I do not think that K.J. was better than Thomas, just that they were on the same level. What's more, I have not just used quotations but also extensive statistics. First you damn me for empirical evidence, and now you damn me for personal testimonials? :)

Besides, I was actually using Chambers' quotations to reveal K.J.'s tendencies as a point guard and how they would vary based on what the team needed. I wasn't using them to make any comment about Isiah.[/QUOTE]

yes I am aware of that, and I was being cheeky to try and show how emotionally invested you are in this and how much of a waste it would be for me to put in an efforted reply.

I like KJ too, but I do not have the adoration to equate him with Zeke. Not in my world, I realize I cant change your world, and the propaganda front you put up is most impressive.

I'll leave it at that, but for future reference, please remember that numbers and quotes can be sourced and manipulated in all directions ad nauseum, so using them as the determining or damning factor does not make you an authority, it only makes you a know-it-all, and not in the good way.

Here's another note.

[B]Phoenix Suns, 1989-1992 (four seasons before Barkley):[/B] [I]217 regular season wins, two Western Conference Finals, three Western Conference Semifinals, four playoff trips, qualified for nine rounds of the playoffs total[/I]

[B]Phoenix Suns, 1993-1996 (four seasons with Barkley): [/B][I]218 regular season wins, one NBA Finals, one Western Conference Finals, three Western Conference Semifinals, four playoff trips, qualified for nine rounds of the playoffs total[/I]

Now, Barkley constituted a positive overall and he helped K.J. reach the NBA Finals (just as K.J. helped Barkley reach the NBA Finals), but Johnson actually played in more Western Conference Finals without Barkley than with him, and overall, the Suns' regular season and postseason success rates proved virtually identical.

[QUOTE=JtotheIzzo]yes I am aware of that, and I was being cheeky to try and show how emotionally invested you are in this and how much of a waste it would be for me to put in an efforted reply.

I like KJ too, but I do not have the adoration to equate him with Zeke. Not in my world, I realize I cant change your world, and the propaganda front you put up is most impressive.

I'll leave it at that, but for future reference, please remember that numbers and quotes can be sourced and manipulated in all directions ad nauseum, so using them as the determining or damning factor does not make you an authority, it only makes you a know-it-all, and not in the good way.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm not trying to put up propaganda or manipulate anything. I don't believe in doing anything dishonestly, and I have indicated (for instance) that Thomas was just as prolific a scorer and playmaker as K.J.

Ultimately, I'm just making an honest argument, one that shouldn't be hard to believe. K.J. and Thomas were similarly explosive, but K.J. was more efficient, and I'm not manipulating anything to show that. I don't believe that K.J. was necessarily better, but I do think that you could take either one and not be dramatically worse off. Thomas will be remembered more in history and understandably so because he led two championship-winning clubs, but as I've noted, he eventually played with the sort of team support conducive to winning a title (just like Bob Cousy). In the end, it is a team game.

[QUOTE=RidonKs]Sure, 21 games per year. Which ever way you slice it, or try to avoid the issue by saying 'he never missed a playoff game', he was still injury prone. Very much so as a matter of fact. Broke the 80 game barriar once in his career, and only played 70+ games 33% of his career.

I'm not trying to 'interfere', I'm just making a point. A point that you don't really have to have seen Kevin Johnson play a lot to make. He was injury prone. That's a major career detriment.

Once again, just sayin.

But sure, feel free to continue to talk down to me as if I'm an infant. As long as it produces positive effects for youself, I see no reason for you to stop.[/QUOTE]

Being injury-prone is what's hurt K.J.'s legacy most of all, and that's understandable. However, we should also understand context, and I'll copy a post of mine from earlier in the thread:

[B]Injuries are the knock on K.J., and that's understandable. However, you also have to understand the injuries. Some feel that in the history of the NBA, no one has penetrated the lane and attacked the basket like K.J., and he played in an extremely physical era. As Danny Ainge once said, in the 1990s, referees just stopped calling fouls, and K.J. paid the price. To quote a post of mine:

As the '95-'96 ESPN NBA preview noted, when K.J. was hot, it seemed like the only way to stop him was to hurt him. Well, don't think that teams didn't realize that and didn't try to make him pay a price when he rocketed through lane and attacked the rim. In 2001, an [I]Arizona Republic [/I]sportswriter (Norm Frauenheim) recalled that opponents would sometimes pummel K.J. into the floor at old Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix so hard that it seemed as if the earth was shaking.

In today's NBA, I'd bet that K.J. would hold up much better. Besides, Tiny Archibald played in 876 of 1,148 potential regular season games over the 14-season span of his career (1971-1984), a 76.3% rate. K.J., meanwhile, played in 729 of 902 potential regular season games over the 11-season span of his career (1988-1998), an 80.8% rate (I'm not counting K.J.'s brief comeback in the spring of 2000 when he popped out of a two-year, official retirement to help the Suns after Jason Kidd broke his ankle). And K.J. played in 105 of 106 potential playoff games (99.1%).[/B]

[QUOTE=Glove_20]RidonK, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't interfere.


I am guessing you counted the last year 2000? Kevin Johnson only played in the end of the year because Jason Kidd hurt his ankle and had to sit out some games in the playoffs. So Kevin Johnson, comes OUT OF RETIREMENT, to play a couple of games in the end of the season, and play for Kidd in the playoffs at the end. Though he didn't make much of a difference, they got out of the 1st round with Kidd only playing 1 game in the 1st round series. And that was the only time Kidd got out of the first round in the West as well. (The other team's star player was also out)


I doubt you were old enough to remember all of that so you added 2000 as part of KJ's career, but he didn't even get injured that year, and came out of retirement just to help give his team a boost.[/QUOTE]

And although it didn't necessarily reveal itself in the numbers, K.J. actually made a huge difference for the Suns down the stretch in 2000. To quote a post of mine from the ESPN board:
[B]
In the spring of 2000, K.J. popped out of a two-year retirement to help fill-in for an injured Kidd. In Game One of the Western Conference First Round versus the defending champion Spurs and their fabled defense in San Antonio, it was K.J.'s uncanny ability to orchestrate the half-court offense that pushed the Suns over the top. Playing on virtually one leg because of a strained groin muscle, K.J. shot just 1-6 from the field, but as long as he was on the floor, you just knew that Phoenix would win the game, regardless of whether they were up by a point or down by a point. One just felt that with the ball in his hands, he would find a way to navigate the storm and create a basket when it was necessary. Inside the final minute, he even set up Corie Blount (of all people) for a couple of crucial free throws as the Suns squeaked out a 72-70 slowdown road victory.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAS20000422.html[/url]

Earlier that spring, NBC telecast a Suns-Kings game in Sacramento and used assists and turnovers to reveal the difference in how the out-of-retirement K.J. and the flashy youngster Jason "White Chocolate" Williams could run an offense. K.J. recorded 9 assists against 2 turnovers in 27 minutes off the bench, whereas Williams played 39 minutes and recorded 3 assists versus 4 turnovers. Naturally, the Suns won.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAC20000409.html[/url][/B]

And in Game Three of that Suns-Spurs series, San Antonio was on the verge of blowing out Phoenix in the first quarter before K.J. entered the game.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO20000429.html[/url]

In Game One, he recorded the game-high assist total (6 in 25 minutes off the bench, when no one else on either side posted more than 4), and in Game Three, K.J. tied for the game's second-highest assist total (6 in 26 minutes off the bench).

I'll always remember K.J.'s performance in Game One of that series as one of his greatest. Despite playing on one leg because of a groin strain that robbed him of his explosiveness, and despite having just popped out of a two-year official retirement, K.J. totally controlled a slow-down game, just working the offense masterfully. It was like seeing a pitcher who ordinarily would have thrown 99 miles per hour being reduced to 79 by an arm injury and yet still winning the game with guile, control, and command. Instead of winning a track meet, as he would in his prime, K.J. won a chess match.

Without K.J. in that series, San Antonio would have swept Phoenix, 3-0, even without Duncan. With K.J., even the hobbled, out-of-retirement version, the Suns won a playoff series for the only time in a nine-season span (1996-2004).

Also, in the six regular season games that K.J. played that year, he shot .571 from the field, 1.000 on threes (albeit in just one attempt), and 1.000 from the free throw line. During his second game back, versus the Lakers, Marv Albert on TNT noted that usually when players (such as Michael Jordan in '95) return from a long layoff (let alone a retirement), they struggle with their shot. Mike Fratello responded to Albert by saying, "Well, he's just a great athlete" (in 1986, the Oakland Athletics drafted K.J. as a shortstop and he played briefly in their minor league system).

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO20000404.html[/url]

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I'm pretty sure all those players you named didn't put up those numbers shooting 50% (or damn near close to it) from the field. Only Wilt, Kareem, MJ, along with Doc and Bird I already named did that for an 8 year span. That actually put's him in even more exclusive company then just Doc and Bird.


-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
-Larry Bird
-Wilt Chamberlain
-Alex English
-Julius Erving
-Michael Jordan


Who doesn't belong in that select group or does Alex Englsih just shoot up the All-Time rankings because he was consistant over an 8 season span?[/QUOTE]


1. Well now your using 4 statistical categories...I used only 3, its much easier to narrow it down with more categories...

2. And once again, assists and passing is very important to a PG and is maybe the biggest category that defines a PG. However, I can't say the same for rebound/assists being the most important for a SF.

You see what I am saying, compare the importance of efficiency/passing to PGs vs. rebounds/assists to SG/SF/PF/C....big difference....


3. I could use just Points/Assists too

[B]Isiah Thomas, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson[/B]

are the only 3 to match KJ there...thats just 2 categories, and look, you have the 3 greatest PGs of All-Time



4. And remmeber, [B]MAGIC JOHNSON [/B]was the only to actually exactly replicate the 20/10/50%. Oscar Robertson was close and aroudn the same numbers, so I added him too...

If we did the same with English, many of the guy's I mentioned at first would be addeed on...




[B]KJ matches up ONLY to the top, in the categories that are most important to PGs[/B]

[QUOTE=JtotheIzzo]yes I am aware of that, and I was being cheeky to try and show how emotionally invested you are in this and how much of a waste it would be for me to put in an efforted reply.

I like KJ too, but I do not have the adoration to equate him with Zeke. Not in my world, I realize I cant change your world, and the propaganda front you put up is most impressive.

I'll leave it at that, but for future reference, please remember that numbers and quotes can be sourced and manipulated in all directions ad nauseum, so using them as the determining or damning factor does not make you an authority, it only makes you a know-it-all, and not in the good way.[/QUOTE]
:rollingeyes:

Wow someone is very narrow minded.


I'd say Isiah Thomas is ahead of KJ careerwise as well, the 2 rings seperate them.


However, everywhere else, its close or KJ has the edge.
His Prime Stats are better, and his peak stats are better (And yes they played in the same Era). And even in clutch Game 7s, KJ has outplayed Isiah by far. And you've been "proven" wrong how many times, every statement you make "Barkley didn't hurt KJ" or "Isiah didn't play in the Run/Gun days" have come up and backfired on you. You've looked like a complete joke.




I mean its definately comparable. Name me another player who has put up better numbers, on winning/contending teams, yet is WAY worse than a player who has put up worse numbers with 2 rings....

I mean, Isiah > KJ, but its definately comparable...All you have been is completely ignorant and have that "It can't be true" mentality...

Here are their 9 year Prime statistics:

[B]KJ:

19.8ppg
10.0apg
49.7% FG
83.9% FT
3.3tpg


Isiah:

20.1ppg
9.9apg
46.2%
77.7%
3.8tpg[/B]


Obviously KJ has put up better numbers. And I am not a total statistical guy, so even though he has, I am not going to say KJ > Isiah. But its definately comparable, unless you can name me 2 other players, where 1 has put up better numbers (and that too on contending teams) yet is worse than the player with worse numbers. Not even "worse" but uncomparable

Go ahead and try, you won't be able to find one...Just because its "Kevin Johnson" and "Isiah Thomas" doesn't mean it can't be comparable. You need to remove your bias

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]Phoenix won more because they had a more talented team, so it's hard to measure that when doing a head to head matchup.

1992-1993 teams

Phoenix

Charles Barkley
Tom Chambers
Danny Ainge
Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Mark West
Oliver Miller
Richard Dumas
(the rest don't matter)

Utah

Karl Malone
Jeff Malone
John Stockton
Tyrone Corbin
Jay Humphries
David Benoit
Mike Brown
Mark Eaton
(rest don't matter)

And I still think you need to show the stats up until 96-97... because they were still in their primes, and it's going to even the numbers more, like coin flip does if you flip it enough times.[/QUOTE]


1. When I have more time I will...but I just showed "Peak" stats, and there KJ outperformed Stockton easily

2. Barkley played only on the last 2 matchups...The rest KJ was without Barkley, yet they still beat Stockton's team plenty of times, because of KJ's domination on the offensive end over Stockton....

You got to at least respect what gmat says. he provides sources and makes everything he says credible. most of the time posters here just make things up as they go. also so the way he says everything really makes you listen as well. but yeah, at least he has sources backing up what he says, that makes what he says legit and credible

after years of watching KJ throughout the 80s and 90s, (even owning his horrible Converse react-gel shoes about 15 years ago) sadly the first thing i always think about is how he got injured by getting hugged by his own teammate.

everytime i get in a KJ conversation with people thats always the first thing they bring up....the Barkley hug. wasn't he out for like 2 weeks after that? i hope he took off running the next time he hit a buzzer beater.:oldlol:

good career. he should make it in the 45-60 range on that ISH list.

[QUOTE=RidonKs][B]Sure, 21 games per year. [/B]Which ever way you slice it, or try to avoid the issue by saying 'he never missed a playoff game', he was still injury prone. Very much so as a matter of fact. [B]Broke the 80 game barriar once in his career, and only played 70+ games 33% of his career.[/B]

I'm not trying to 'interfere', I'm just making a point. A point that you don't really have to have seen Kevin Johnson play a lot to make. He was injury prone. That's a major career detriment.

Once again, just sayin.

But sure, feel free to continue to talk down to me as if I'm an infant. As long as it produces positive effects for youself, I see no reason for you to stop.[/QUOTE]

Dude, your facts are still wrong. In K.J.'s eleven-season career (1988-1998, not counting the time when he came out of retirement in the spring of 2000 to aid the Suns in an emergency situation), he averaged 66.3 regular season games per year, meaning that he missed less than 16 per season. Obviously, that's not great, but it's not 21, let alone your original number of 25.

Furthermore, K.J. played in 80 or more games twice, not once, and he played in at least 70 games in six of his eleven seasons (again, you can't count the time that he popped out of a two-year retirement on a moment's notice to help the franchise), which is 55% of the seasons, not 33%. See for yourself here:

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html[/url]

And K.J. played in at least 67 games in seven of those eleven seasons, which is 64% of the time.

There's no doubt that K.J. was injury-prone, but there's also no need to misrepresent the facts to make your case.

By the way, I'll also note that K.J. had planned to retire in the summer of 1997, but the Suns managed to coax him back for one more year, especially since K.J. still dreamed of a championship. In '97-'98, he played in Phoenix's first dozen games before being sidelined for two months by arthroscopic knee surgery and only playing in 50 regular season games. His original instincts about knowing when his body needed to retire were thus correct, but the team's management wanted to milk him further. See the following interview with K.J. by the Suns' [I]Fastbreak[/I] magazine, from the spring of 1997.

[B]FB: [/B][I]Why are your instincts to walk away after 10 years? [/I]

[B]KJ:[/B] [I]I just felt all along that if I could get a certain amount of years in the league, have great years and still have my health when I walked away, that would be great. You know, I want to be able to run around with my kids someday and not have to ice for three or four days. Health is such a delicate thing that I would really like to have. And another reason why I got to this point was that I've been injured previously for so long -- those four years consecutively -- that the rehabilitation and stuff just got so frustrating for me. It was something that I just don't want to keep on doing at that same pace. And then lastly, it's always been a personal goal of mine to be able to walk away and not play just for the money and be at the top of my game. [/I]

[B]FB: [/B][I]But don't you think you could play another year or two and still be at the top of your game and still have your health?[/I]

[B]KJ:[/B][I] I think I could play another year or two and be at the top of my game, but the health part -- I can't speculate on that. I mean, only the Lord knows that.[/I]

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382486.html[/url]

I'll also note that K.J. missed the first 11 games of the '96-'97 season because of hernia surgery that fall. During the surgery, the Suns' doctors discovered a second hernia that they suspected may have been there for several years.

[B]FB:[/B] [I]Before this season you had hernia surgery. While operating, the doctors found a second hernia that they think might have been there for several years. Do you think that had something to do with all those injuries? [/I]

[B]KJ:[/B] [I]The two things I'd say, God's blessing this year and the hernia surgery, those two things may have really alleviated the hamstring and groin problems I've had in the past and it's just unfortunate that the hernia surgery didn't happen sooner. But I probably wouldn't be the same player I am today had I relied 100 percent on just my body. When you can't play physically sometimes, you have to use your mind a little bit more to compete and to achieve certain things. I'm just glad that this year I've been healthy for the most part and I think God and the hernia surgery you know really had a lot to do with it. It looks that way. [/I]

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382486.html[/url]

After missing those first 11 games that season (during which time the Suns went 0-11 despite featuring Sam Cassell and a rookie Steve Nash at the point, proving K.J.'s importance to the team), Johnson only missed one more game the entire year, and that was due to the flu. Overall, after the hernia surgery that removed the "secret," "hidden" hernia, K.J. played in 87 of his next 88 games including the playoffs, before undergoing the arthroscopic knee surgery. With today's improved medical technology and knowledge (1997 wasn't too long ago, but medicine and technology are always rapidly advancing), perhaps the doctors would have discovered that original hernia much sooner and spared K.J. many of his problems.

[QUOTE=AI Nuggets3]after years of watching KJ throughout the 80s and 90s, (even owning his horrible Converse react-gel shoes about 15 years ago) sadly the first thing i always think about is how he got injured by getting hugged by his own teammate.

everytime i get in a KJ conversation with people thats always the first thing they bring up....the Barkley hug. wasn't he out for like 2 weeks after that? i hope he took off running the next time he hit a buzzer beater.:oldlol:

good career. he should make it in the 45-60 range on that ISH list.[/QUOTE]

In the Suns' third-to-last regular season game of the '92-'93 season, Barkley nailed a miraculous last-second shot to give the Suns the victory. Oliver Miller had thrown the ball off the backboard from out of bounds with about a second left, Barkley caught it off the ricochet while off-balance, and he flung it through the hoop.

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1992&b=19930422&tm=POR[/url]

In running at K.J. and hugging him, Barkley lifted the diminutive point guard off the ground and they bumped knees, resulting a in a sprained MCL for Johnson that was supposed to sideline him for most, if not all, of the Suns' First Round series with the Lakers. He returned by Game Two, however (I write more about that series earlier in the thread, on the fourth or fifth page).

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]I though Stockton was as good at the time, and now...

It was arguable....

Kevin was more of a scorer, [B]and neglected to get his team involved some of the time. [/B]Great player and all... Fantastic offensive game for a guard, while still being able to get guys involved, [B]but sometimes he got into ballhog mode.[/B]

I think you are starting to over-rate him a bit.[/QUOTE]

Well, for whatever it's worth, here was the opinion of [I]SLAM[/I] basketball writer Alan Paul in the February 2007 edition (no. 104) in an article titled "Shining Star: Whether with his scoring, passing or leadership, Kevin Johnson was always a difference maker. That's only been more true since he retired from the game."
[B]
KJ played under control at 110 miles per hour and always kept his teammates involved, never hogging the ball, even while seemingly able to score at will.[/B]

(The quotation is on page 100.)

The career Shots-to-Assists Ratios that "Glove" posted would also prove that point: K.J. 1.36:1.00, Steve Nash 1.39:1.00, Jason Kidd 1.40:1.00, Sam Cassell 2.10:1.00. All four point guards played on the '96-'97 Suns.

Of course, you're entitled to your perspective or memory, but there are other viewpoints out there.

[QUOTE=GMATCallahan]Regarding 1993, you're talking about just one season. Overall, the Suns and Jazz averaged close to the same amount of wins during that era, but the difference was that K.J. dominated Stockton head-to-head, not just in wins, but in the individual matchup (thus leading to the wins). See my previous post where I provide detailed aggregate statistics and box scores.

In the mid-nineties, that trend started to lessen, in part because the Suns' perimeter shooting around K.J. began to decline and thus allowed Utah to help Stockton more readily by running multiple defenders at Johnson to cut him off, without paying as much of a price. [COLOR="Red"]Besides, by the '95-'96 season, the Jazz possessed a vastly better team than the Suns (examine the records), not because K.J. had fallen off [I]vis-a-vis [/I]Stockton, but because of Utah's superior stability and shrewd development of its supporting cast.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Thanks, you just made my point for me. KJ had much better overall talent to help him in the earlier years than Stockton had, eventually by around 95-96, the Jazz finally started to have a talented overall team, and John had a better supporting cast. That was why I wanted to see the rest of the stats which Glove was so sneaky to hide.

Here's another excerpt from that [I]SLAM[/I] feature on K.J., the one that I mentioned in the prior post (page 100):

[B]SLAM:[/B] [I]You had seven double-figure scorers on that team[/I] [the '93 Suns, who reached the NBA Finals]. [I]Was there ever any tension over touches? As the point guard, that would have fallen on you. [/I]

[B]KJ:[/B] [I]I took it as a personal challenge to make sure everyone was satisfied with his touches, and it was an easy job. We had a great group of guys who put the success of the team above any personal accomplishments, so tension was nearly non-existent. [/I]

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]Thanks, you just made my point for me. [B]KJ had much better overall talent to help him in the earlier years than Stockton had[/B], eventually by around 95-96, the Jazz finally started to have a talented overall team, and John had a better supporting cast. That was why I wanted to see the rest of the stats which Glove was so sneaky to hide.[/QUOTE]

Actually, that's not really true, at least not going by the respective success of the two teams.

Over two seasons in '96 and '97, the Jazz averaged 59.5 wins compared to 41.0 wins per year for the Suns, so the difference in support was overwhelmingly in Stockton's favor during that time. But over seven seasons from 1989-1995, Phoenix averaged 56.3 wins to Utah's 53.6 victories, so there wasn't a dramatic difference in the talent within the two organizations. In fact, in 1990, the Jazz won 55 games and the Suns won 54, and in 1991, the Suns won 55 games and the Jazz won 54, and in 1992, the Jazz won 55 games and the Suns won 53.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/[/url]

In 1990, the Jazz were the fourth seed in the Western Conference and the Suns were the fifth seed, and in 1991, the Suns were the fourth seed and the Jazz were the fifth seed. In other words, the teams were neck-and-neck, and it was K.J.'s domination of Stockton from 1989-1993 that seemed to put the Suns over the top in head-to-head competition.

Remember, in 1992, K.J.'s best teammate was Jeff Hornacek, whereas Stockton's best teammate was Karl Malone. And in K.J.'s first full season in Phoenix in '89, the Suns (who hadn't won more than 36 games since 1984) rocketed from 28 wins in '88 to 55 in '89. Adding Tom Chambers had something to do with that, but then again, Chambers later called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," and for good reason (see how Chambers' individual honors and statistics soared upon joining K.J., as I noted earlier in the thread, possibly on the previous page).

[QUOTE=GMATCallahan]Actually, that's not really true, at least not going by the respective success of the two teams.[/QUOTE]

They won because John and Karl were that awesome, not because of the rest of the talent on the team. I'm talking about straight up natural, raw talent for the game. You are posting this stuff, like I didn't watch the games or something... It's just somebody else's printed opinions. But I watched every game live, I have my own opinion on the subject.

[QUOTE=GMATCallahan]
Remember, in 1992, K.J.'s best teammate was Jeff Hornacek, whereas Stockton's best teammate was Karl Malone. .[/QUOTE]

Did I not say, overall talent??? You had a prime Jeff Hornacek scoring 20 ppg, 51 fg% 44 3pt%, prime Dan Marjerle, with 17 ppg, Tom Chambers with 16 ppg, Tim Perry with 12 ppg, Mark West who was pretty good defender... plus KJ scored a lot, and the players that didn't score were hustle players. Phoenix had had more talent.

other than John & Karl, there was Jeff Malone 18 ppg and Tyrone Corbin 11.6 ppg... and Mark Eaton who was having back problems, and played limited minutes and games. The rest were quite unremarkable, but John got the most out of them, because he got everyone involved and set them up, based on their strengths.

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]What's this 89-93 bull?
You are being selective... why not compare KJ's whole career, at least up until 96-97??? Go ahead... let's see the truth. You show that KJ was better offensively, and the FG% was close enough to be a wash, Stockton dominated in Assists and steals, and like I said... John did more to help the player's around him besides assists.

You've helped prove that KJ was a bit of a ball hog, even though he had good efficiency... I wonder what percentage Stockton's team mates shot in comparison to KJ's also, because John would play the percentages as well as anyone ever has. So KJ might have shot 50% and John might have shot 50%, but KJ shoots 10 more shots a game at 50% where John might have chosen to get the ball to someone who could have thrown in inside to Malone, who's shooting 55%. Anyway, those are unexplained things that are noticed when you watch games versus look at stat sheets.

Johnson scored and did great and all... but he was always looking to score the whole game, and only when he didn't have a clear look did he pass it out. He held and dribbled the ball a lot, while looking to score, where John would be looking to run the offense. John was better at letting other people get involved, and it wasn't just measured in assists.

Now, I'm not knocking KJ exactly, not in the grand scheme of things... but when you say he dominated Stockton head to head, there are a lot of things not shown on the stat sheet that went on. Stockton's role was to get his team mates involved, to let them touch the ball and work it around, KJ was looking to score, and while his stats went up, a portion of his teammates stats went down some. Stockton also played a lot of help defense and things, and helped his team get buckets off of screens, got a lot of deflections that went to his team mates that didn't count as part of his steals etc.

I watched the games, and I remember people thinking John got smoked because KJ had 30 points or whatever, while John would have 15 points on the same night, but someone else on the team would usually make up the difference. KJ took more shots is what it boiled down to, John could have shot more and got more points, but he always felt it was important to get everyone involved. I don't know about you, but I hate to hustle my ass off, playing defense, and rebounding, and then have someone else hogging the ball all the time, I become a lot more interested in playing hard when I get to be involved offensively in some manner, and have guys setting picks for me, and it motivates me to be more involved on defense.

Different type players, and while I sometimes questioned KJ's scoring first mentality, he also used that threat to get his team mates shots, and you had to respect his speed, quickness, and shooting... He was a tough player indeed... But he was a shoot first type player, while Stockton was a pass first type player, and while KJ may have better scoring stats, Stockton had better stats in assists, steals, and getting his teammates involved, and even during KJ's prime, it was still a pretty even matchup in my eyes.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say that K.J. was a shoot-first player or a scoring-first point guard per se (forget about just the comparison to Stockton). Maybe your memories of K.J.'s scoring are more vivid because he was one of the most explosive players in NBA history, but he was actually very balanced. After all, just because he wasn't as pass-first as Stockton doesn't mean that he was obsessed with his scoring or a ball-hog. Consider the following career averages in field goal attempts from the following star point guards of that era.

[B]Kevin Johnson: 12.5

Magic Johnson: 13.2

Gary Payton: 14.0

Tim Hardaway: 15.1

Isiah Thomas: 16.2[/B]

K.J.'s single-season highest FGA average was 15.7 (his only time at 15.0 or higher), and yet that was less than Thomas' career average. It's thus not surprising that Sam Cassell made the following statement in the April 2000 edition of [I]SLAM[/I] (no.41), in an article titled "Being Sam Cassell," by Scoop Jackson, page 84:
[B]
I'm not a point guard. I'm not a point guard.

Gary Payton is not a point guard. Timmy Hardaway is not one. Stephon [Marbury], Allen [Iverson], the list goes on and on. To me, we are [I]lead[/I] guards, we all have scoring mentalities. A point guard's main responsibility should be distribution first. Jason's [Kidd] greatest asset is his creativity with passing the ball and Stockton is the same way. Point guards are not supposed to draw attention to themselves by scoring. Oscar Robertson, to me, was not a point guard. He was a guard, a guard that could do it all. Nate Archibald, a point guard. Kevin Johnson, a point guard. Isiah Thomas, lead guard. Make sense?[/B]

And Cassell knew what he was talking about, because he was intimately familiar with K.J. In 1994 and 1995, Cassell faced K.J. in 14 total playoff games, to the point where he later offered the following statement about his NBA education.

[B]"Everybody gets a lesson in the NBA," Cassell said of his matchup with [Steve] Francis. "I got mine from (former Phoenix point guard) Kevin Johnson." [/B]

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1999&b=19991102&tm=hou[/url]

And then Cassell played with K.J. in Phoenix early in the '96-'97 season, so he learned even more about him then.

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1996&b=19961212&tm=uta[/url]

Referring to Cassell's classification of K.J. as a point guard rather than a lead guard, inside the Suns, people felt that K.J. was frequently too unselfish, that he spent too much time worrying about complementary players who weren't going to step up at crunch time, anyway. In Game One of the 1996 Western Conference First Round in San Antonio, K.J. posted 14 points on 5-8 (.625) field goal shooting and 4-4 (1.000) free throw shooting with 11 assists against just 2 turnovers.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAS19960426.html[/url]

But despite that efficient, downsized (Stockton-like, perhaps) performance, K.J. drew criticism from his coach, Cotton Fitzsimmons, after the Suns had lost by 22 points. Said Fitzsimmons after the game, "Kevin wants to get everyone involved, and we're down by 14. We don't need that."

(See Mike Tulumello's [I]Breaking the Rules: A Season with Sport's Most Colorful Team: Charles Barkley's Phoenix Suns[/I].)

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Rules-Colorful-Charles-Barkleys/dp/1563522691/ref=sr_1_2/103-0546273-2771855?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185791525&sr=1-2[/url]

In Game Two, K.J. followed his coach's edict and looked to score more, posting 21 points while still managing to deliver 16 assists. The Suns lost again, but this time the game was competitive and hanging in the balance until the end.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAS19960428.html[/url]

In fact, throughout his career, K.J.'s coaches had to periodically remind him to be more aggressive and look to score more. I'll post some relevant articles, abstracts, and quotations shortly, with the pertinent portions in bold.

Again, for K.J. to not have taken advantage of his scoring skills (skills that, for all his greatness, Stockton simply did not posses to anything like Johnson's degree) would have been a mistake. You play the game to win, not to see who best fits certain ideals, but aside from Magic Johnson, perhaps no one in NBA history offered a better-balanced package of scoring and passing than K.J. As Alan Paul told K.J. in the February 2007 edition of [I]SLAM[/I] (page 100), "People talk about scoring point guards versus pass-first ones, but you combined both, seemingly with ease."

Indeed, I disagree with the notion that K.J. was "always looking to score," or that he only passed when he didn't enjoy a clear look himself. If you think about lead guards or playmakers of that stripe, you look at guys in today's game such as Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, and Dwyane Wade, guards who average in the neighborhood of 6-8 assists. They're solid playmakers, but their limitations in that regard are fairly self-evident because of their nature as players. K.J., however, routinely finished in the range of 9-12 assists, and you can't do that if you only pass as a last option. K.J. was a dribble-playmaker, meaning that he looked to create plays and high-percentage shots off the dribble. "vcsgrizzfan," a Grizzlies fan from the ESPN NBA message board who actually started following basketball with the Buffalo Braves in the early 1970s, has written that aside from Magic Johnson, K.J. created more "good looks" than any point guard of his era (yes, that includes Stockton). And indeed, that ability of K.J.'s can be seen in the success that I previously documented of teammates such as Tom Chambers, Eddie Johnson, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, Tim Perry, Andrew Lang (among others), and how those same teammates didn't necessarily achieve the same level of effectiveness elsewhere. When K.J. drove to the basket, he wasn't like Iverson, just looking to score and then pass at the last moment if he had no other choice. Instead, K.J. was seeing the whole floor and keeping all his options open based on how the defense responded, and that's what accounted for his enormous assist averages.

Remember, in that 14-game head-to-head stretch between K.J. and Stockton that I documented with box scores and aggregate statistics, Stockton did not dominate K.J. in assists and steals. In those 14 games, Stockton averaged 12.5 assists to K.J.'s 10.8 and 1.9 steals to K.J.'s 1.8. So, yeah, he held the edge, but K.J. was more than competing in those categories while blowing him out in the scoring department. Sometimes, K.J. could out-assist Stockton as well as out-score him, as in the following game from 1991 when K.J. recorded 37 points and 20 assists against Utah.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19910402.html[/url]

That was just one of the six career games where K.J. posted at least 20 points and 20 assists in the same contest, and here are the others.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/LAL19890226.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19890415.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900321.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900403.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19920331&tm=phx[/url]

In Game Two of the 1992 Western Conference First Round versus San Antonio, K.J. recorded 24 points and 19 assists, and he went for 21-19 in the following 1996 game.

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1995&b=19960419&tm=phx[/url]

You would have an argument if K.J.'s greater scoring wasn't helping his team. However, the Suns went 10-4 versus the Jazz during that stretch and K.J. was actually more efficient in shooting the ball, 52% to Stockton's 50% (again, see the aggregate statistics that I posted earlier). K.J. was almost matching Stockton in terms of successfully feeding teammates for baskets, and then scoring nearly twice as many points with slightly higher field goal and free throw percentages. Because he was so efficient and wasted so little time and action on the floor, he could score explosively while still involving and elevating his teammates. Remember, along with Stockton, Scott Skiles, Nate McMillan, and Jason Kidd, K.J. is one of the five players in NBA history to record at least 25 assists in one game.

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19940406&tm=PHO[/url]

As Hornacek noted, K.J. would feed his teammates the ball.

[B]Question:[/b] [I]Nash, Kidd, or KJ (in their prime)? Who would you choose & why?[/I]-- [b]Ed, Phoenix[/B]

[B]Jeff Hornacek:[/B] [I]Oh, heck, I’d take all three of them. They all pass you the ball. I’d take any one of those guys. Three top draft picks, you can pick any of them and you’d be alright. You like the versatility of Steve and Kevin because they shoot the ball a little better than Jason does. There were times, even when Jason was playing here, I had talked to him on the phone a couple of time to tell he to shoot it a few more times. He really wanted to pass every time. Any of those guys, you’d just love to play with. [/I]

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/interactive/email_experts.html[/url]

Now, I don't think that K.J. was a greater player than Stockton in the scope of basketball history, but he did have more in his tool box. I invite you to check out Hakeem Olajuwon's 1996 autobiography, [I]Living the Dream[/I].

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Living-Dream-My-Life-Basketball/dp/0316094277/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0546273-2771855?ie=UTF8&s=books&sr=1-1[/url]

Olajuwon went through both K.J.'s Suns and Stockton's Jazz in 1994 and again in 1995 on route to the championship both years, and he writes about both point guards in his book. Olajuwon compliments Stockton, but his praise is more matter-of-fact and somewhat dispassionate. But with K.J., you can see how pressured Olajuwon felt as a defensive center going up against a dominant point guard. Indeed, K.J.'s balance of scoring and passing off penetration could place the defense in a quandary. Referring to the first two games of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals, Olajuwon notes that K.J. would drive and every time the Dream would leave his man to protect the hoop, Johnson would dish off and Phoenix center Joe Kleine would hit the standing jumper. And then Olajuwon notes that if he stayed with Kleine, K.J. would penetrate all the way for a layup (either for himself or someone else). The Dream's conclusion? "Boy, how are we going to beat this Phoenix team?"

Ultimately, K.J. burned Olajuwon and the Rockets both ways in those first two games. Johnson averaged 25.0 points and 12.5 assists while Kleine shot a combined 10-13 (.769) from the field as the Suns won in two straight blowouts by an average of 23 points. Meanwhile, Phoenix forward A.C. Green, who had played with Magic Johnson for six years in L.A., scored a career-playoff high 25 points in Game One (Green is another player, by the way, who set a personal career-high in points per game as soon as he joined K.J., with 14.7 in 1994 after never having averaged over 13.6).

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenac01.html[/url]

Game Two, meanwhile, showed how K.J. would modulate his game based on the situation. In the first half, he posted 14 points and 10 assists to help the Suns open up a huge lead. Then in the second half, he went for the kill with 15 points and 2 assists, finishing with game totals of 29 points and 12 assists in the Suns' 118-94 victory.

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]They won because John and Karl were that awesome, not because of the rest of the talent on the team. I'm talking about straight up natural, raw talent for the game.[/quote]

The Jazz' distribution of talent was a little more top-heavy than the Suns', but in terms of the overall amount, it was similar, hence the similar records. Would you not admit that Karl Malone was ultimately a far superior player to any of K.J.'s pre-Barkley teammates, even Tom Chambers? And don't sleep on the talent of guys like Thurl Bailey, Jeff Malone (a five-time 20-point scorer and a two-time All-Star before he ever played with Stockton, and one of the purest jump-shooters of his era), and Mark Eaton, a two-time Defensive Player of the Year who led the NBA in blocked shots per game four times and finished second in two other seasons.

The reason why the Suns were so successful against the Jazz during those years was that K.J., normally a 20-21-point scorer, averaged 30-31 against Stockton while shooting as efficiently as ever and maintaining his customary assists averages in the 10-11 range.

[quote]You are posting this stuff, like I didn't watch the games or something... It's just somebody else's printed opinions. But I watched every game live, I have my own opinion on the subject.[/quote]

I know, but memories can be foggy or selective. Anyway, my point was just to reveal that there are other opinions and perspectives, so don't take it personally.

[quote]Did I not say, overall talent??? You had a prime Jeff Hornacek scoring 20 ppg, 51 fg% 44 3pt%, prime Dan Marjerle, with 17 ppg, Tom Chambers with 16 ppg, Tim Perry with 12 ppg, Mark West who was pretty good defender... plus KJ scored a lot, and the players that didn't score were hustle players. Phoenix had had more talent.

other than John & Karl, there was Jeff Malone 18 ppg and Tyrone Corbin 11.6 ppg... and Mark Eaton who was having back problems, and played limited minutes and games. The rest were quite unremarkable, but John got the most out of them, because he got everyone involved and set them up, based on their strengths.[/QUOTE]

You act as if K.J. had nothing to do with how well those Phoenix teammates performed. Did you read my earlier posts in which I quoted Chambers and Hornacek, or showed what happened to Chambers' statistics and accomplishments after he joined K.J., or what occurred to Majerle's numbers after he left K.J., or what happened to the field goal percentages of Hornacek, Perry, and Andrew Lang after they left K.J. and joined Philadelphia? You say that Stockton, with regard to his teammates, "got the most out of them, because he got everyone involved and set them up, based on their strengths," and he did, but K.J. did the same. Just because he wasn't quite as "pure" of a point guard didn't mean that he failed to fulfill a similar function. Again, I've explained all these points with well-documented statistics and quotations, so go back and read those posts. See the one where Clyde Drexler says that as far he's concerned, K.J. might as well have scored Perry's 27 points in a 1992 playoff game versus Portland, and see what happened to Perry's career after he left K.J. In four years with Johnson, Perry shot .524 from the field (never lower than .513), but in four years after K.J. (the last four of his NBA career), he shot .446. K.J. made Perry seem like a legitimate and attractive starting NBA power forward when it turned out that in terms of raw talent, he was a fringe player at best (although you don't seem to want to acknowledge that point). K.J. did virtually the same for his teammates as Stockton did for his Jazz mates.

A similar example is Andrew Lang. In four years with K.J., Lang shot a combined .538 from the field (never lower than .522), but in his first year with Philadelphia, he dropped like a rock, all the way to .425. Because of his shot-blocking skills, Lang managed to play eight more NBA seasons after leaving K.J., but he never again shot higher than .473 from the field, and overall without K.J., he shot just .447, almost the exact same percentage as Perry without K.J. In other words, K.J. was able to take natural sub-45% field goal shooters and turn them into guys who shot 52-54% from the field. He got everything out of them that there was to get, and possibly more than anyone else ever could have gotten.

The irony is that when the Sixers received Hornacek, Perry, and Lang from Phoenix in exchange for Barkley, many thought that they'd received quite a load of talent, three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field. Indeed, some also thought that the Suns had surrendered too much talent. However, Perry and Lang were not nearly as effective away from K.J., and even Hornacek saw his field goal percentage fall from .512 in '92 with K.J. to .470 in Philadelphia in '93. Give K.J. credit for his ability to involve and elevate his teammates.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/perryti01.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/langan01.html[/url]

Also, as for Stockton setting better screens than K.J., that may have been true, but many felt that Stockton (like Malone) was a dirty player who turned his elbows into dangerous weapons. I suppose that K.J. could have also set superior screens had he been willing to play illegally ... :)

Stockton came up with more steals, but K.J. was the superior man-to-man defender.

[B][I]Suns Find a Forum to Show That They Have Come of Age; [Home Edition]
RANDY HARVEY. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 16, 1990. pg. 6[/I][/B]

Cotton Fitzsimmons was not the NBA's coach of the year in 1990. He won that last year, when his team went to the Western Conference finals before losing to the Lakers in four straight games.

This year is better. His Phoenix Suns beat the team that is coached by the coach of the year in the Western Conference semifinals.

To do that, they beat the Lakers twice at the Forum, including Tuesday night's 106-103 victory to end the best-of-seven series in five games.

Before Game 1, the Suns had not beaten the Lakers at the Forum since 1984. It had been even longer since Fitzsimmons had won a game at the Forum.

"I believe it was right after Lincoln was assassinated," he said Tuesday night. Actually, it was 1974.

Fitzsimmons knew all along that this is the way the Suns would have to do it if they were to contend for the NBA championships, by winning at the Forum.

"Every time it seemed like the Phoenix Suns were going somewhere in the past, it was the Los Angeles Lakers who were in their way," he said. "I said when the season started that if anybody is going to the finals from the Western Conference besides Los Angeles, they're going to have to drive the team bus right through the Forum."

The bus driver was surprisingly low-key but characteristically gracious after one of the most satisfying victories of his 17-year NBA coaching career.

Like his team, he maintained his composure.

It must be a comfort to the young Suns when they look to the bench in a spot like they were in after one quarter Tuesday night and see that their coach looks as if he has just gotten up from a nap.

Now, we can start the game, he must have told them.

It was as apparent to him as to everyone else in this series that the Lakers had no knockout punch.

"They came out and gave us all they had," Fitzsimmons said of the Lakers, who had a 15-point lead entering the second quarter. "They kept coming and coming. But we kept our composure. My team never gave up. We kept clawing and scratching."

He later called the Suns his "little bitty guys."

He stood behind the comment he made before the series began that his team was a 100-1 shot to beat the Lakers.

But he didn't believe it.

"Last year, I was very proud of my team," he said. "We won 55 games after winning only 28 the year before. The Lakers beat us four straight (in the playoffs), but some people forget the fact that the games were tough. Whatever they needed at the end of those games, Magic took. Ya'll wrote that they swept right through us.

"I didn't buy it. I thought we were close. I didn't think we were this close."

[B]Kevin Johnson is the player that Isiah Thomas is supposed to be, the real Pocket Magic. He even has the right last name.

There is no doubting him now. After he played less than his best in the first two games, the Suns' coaches told him that he was thinking too much, that he was taking only what the Lakers gave him. They told him to take what he wanted.

He was the second-best Johnson on the court Tuesday night, but not by much. While the Lakers' Magic scored 43 points and had seven assists, the Suns' Kevin had 37 points and eight assists.

It didn't matter who the Lakers put in front of him, Byron Scott, Larry Drew or Michael Cooper, none could prevent Kevin Johnson from driving into the lane and creating a basket.

He also doesn't back down. The Lakers' 7-1 center, Vlade Divac, threw the ball at Kevin Johnson early in the game. Johnson later paid Divac back with a forearm to the Adam's apple.[/B]

"We had a good ballclub last year, and we improved it in December when we added Kurt Rambis to the ballclub," Fitzsimmons said. "He taught us how to win."

That's something Rambis should know after spending so many years with the Lakers. Not even one year with the Charlotte Hornets could make him forget it.

"I thought I'd finish my career in Charlotte," said Rambis, who joined the Hornets last year as a free agent. "I figured I'd played my last playoff game.

"It's a thrill just to be back in the playoffs. To beat the Lakers is unbelievable."

About that time, Magic Johnson entered the Suns' dressing room, headed straight for Rambis and wrapped him in a bear hug.

That broke up Rambis for a moment. He lost his train of thought until he was asked if the Suns' victory represented a changing of the guard.

"We haven't done anything yet," he said. "As far as I'm concerned, you can't count the Lakers out of anything as long as Earvin Johnson is around."

Except for this year's playoffs.

[B][I]Johnson Is Shining Bright for Suns; [Bulldog Edition]
BILL BARNARD. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 12, 1989. pg. 4[/I][/B]

Kevin Johnson is making Phoenix forget that the Suns traded Larry Nance to Cleveland.

Never mind that Kevin Johnson isn't even the best point guard named Johnson in the NBA.

Never mind that Nance is a two-time All-Star, including this season for the Cavaliers, who have the best record in the league.

Never mind that Nance, who turned 30 last month, lends the hand of experience to a team that barely made the playoffs last season.

What should be remembered is that Kevin Johnson, who just turned 23 a week ago, already is among the best point guards in the NBA and may be the quickest.

Last year's trade that brought Johnson to the Suns and sent Nance to Cleveland is being hailed as the best of all possible deals-one that improved both teams.

"The Cavaliers have been outstanding; they have moved up to another level," Suns Coach Cotton Fitzsimmons said. "The Suns have done that, too. We're 16 games over .500 after missing the playoffs three straight seasons.

"This deal benefitted both teams."

"It was one of the greatest trades of all time," Johnson says. "They have the best record in the East and we have the second-best record in the West, and both teams are happy."

Johnson came to New York last week with the city's newspapers full of praise for the quickness of rookie Rod Strickland, who had 20 points and 14 assists against Chicago in his first start in relief of injured All-Star Mark Jackson.

Although Phoenix lost to the Knicks, Johnson had 31 points and 11 assists and ran circles around Strickland.

Here was Knicks coach Rick Pitino after Strickland finished with six assists and as many fouls as points against the Suns:

"Rod Strickland is quick, but Kevin Johnson is lightning."

Johnson is averaging 19.4 points and is third in the league in assists with 12.1 per game, trailing only John Stockton and Magic Johnson.

And those numbers have been going up. In February, when he was the NBA's Player of the Month, he averaged 24.5 points and 13 assists.

Unquestionably, Nance has been valuable to the Cavaliers, but Johnson filled a historical gap at point guard for the Suns.

He set the Suns' single-game record with 21 assists on Feb. 26 and broke Jay Humphries' single-season assist mark after just 53 games. While Johnson is averaging more than 12 assists, no previous Suns player has ever averaged as many as eight.

Johnson's outstanding performance in February was no accident.

Although he didn't make a scene about it, he admitted he was disappointed at not making the All-Star team, especially after Magic Johnson was injured.

"Anytime things don't go your way, you have to make it work for you," Johnson said.

In the three games just preceding the All-Star break, Johnson had 35 points and 13 assists, 19 points and 12 assists and 34 points and 18 assists.

But Johnson went into the season with far fewer expectations than Fitzsimmons.

"I expected a lot of Kevin," the coach said. "Going into the season, I wasn't concerned about him being too young. No one has more speed or quickness than he does. No one has a bigger heart."

"He told me that a lot, and I started to believe him," Johnson said. "I thought it would come more gradually for me. But he gave me confidence in myself."

[B]Some NBA point guards with the talent to score are reined in by their coaches for the good of the team. Chuck Daly at Detroit believes the Pistons can't win with Isiah Thomas scoring more than he does, for example.

Not so Fitzsimmons.

"Coach wants his point guards to score a lot," Johnson said. "I try to keep the ball distributed well, but we play such a fast-tempo game that I can keep everyone involved and still score myself."

Phoenix is the only team in the NBA with four players who have scored 40 points in a game this season - Johnson, Armon Gilliam, Tom Chambers and Eddie Johnson. A fifth Suns player, Jeff Hornacek, has a season high of 32.

"He knows how to get people fired up," Suns assistant Paul Westphal said. "For a second-year player, it's unbelievable that he's come in and done so well. He's our offense."

At age 23, Kevin Johnson is also the Suns' future.[/B]

***
... My Comment:

And of course, K.J. shooting more was different than Thomas shooting more, because K.J. hit a significantly higher percentage of his shots, even while Isiah was in the run-and-gun earlier in the decade.

[B][I]K.J. Just Doing What He's Told
Vecsey, Peter. USA TODAY. McLean, Va.: Mar 5, 1992. pg. C4 [/I][/B]

Abstract (Summary)

Peter Vecsey says that Phoenix Suns coach Cotton Fitzsimmons is the reason Kevin Johnson has been playing more aggressively.

***

... My Comment:

In the seven games before Fitzsimmons told K.J. to play more aggressively (after the game of February 17, 1992), he'd averaged 16.7 points and 12.4 assists, shooting .467 from the field (12.9 FGA) and .846 from the free throw line (5.8 FTA). The Suns went 4-3 (.571) during that stretch.

In the eight games after Fitzsimmons told K.J. to play more aggressively (starting on February 18, 1992), he averaged 29.1 points and 12.6 assists, shooting .527 from the field (18.5 FGA) and .881 from the free throw line (10.5 FTA). The Suns went 6-2 (.750) during that stretch.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/gl.cgi?player=johnske02&year=1992[/url]

Again, K.J.'s scoring ability was a weapon that his coaches sought to take advantage of, but he could utilize it while still creating all sorts of plays for his teammates (because of his efficiency and how quickly he could create shots). Here are some comments from his next head coach, Paul Westphal, and teammate Danny Ainge early in the '93-'94 season, from a feature titled "Quicksilver: When he's healthy, Kevin Johnson is nearly unstoppable," by Jim Brewer.

[B]So far in 1993-94, his spot has seemed to be anytime he has trotted onto the court. Hitting jumpers, driving past defenders for dunks, penetrating and dishing off to open teammates - Johnson's aggressiveness on offense is a welcome sight to the Suns.

"We want him to score and be aggressive on offense," Westphal said. "With him hitting, it's hard to know which direction we are going to be coming from."

"Kevin's our leader," Ainge said. "When his defense is great and he puts up numbers, he makes it very difficult for other teams to stop us. He's been very aggressive offensively and that makes us better."[/B]

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382496.html[/url]

So, really, you can't blame K.J. for doing what his coaches and teammates wanted from him. At the same time, he was still able to create for those teammates.

[B][I]Now Lakers Need to Three-Peat Game 4: Magic scores playoff-best 43 points, but his teammates falter as balanced Sun attack prevails, 114-101. Lakers must win Tuesday at the Forum.; [Home Edition]
SAM McMANIS. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 14, 1990. pg. 1[/I][/B]

All of Magic Johnson's hook shots, all of his twisting drives and set shots, every single one of his 43 points could not prevent the Lakers from another loss to the Phoenix Suns Sunday in Game 4 of the Western Conference semifinals.

The Lakers, during their championship run, had always said they were more than merely a one-man team. But their 114-101 loss to the Suns, which puts them one loss from elimination, failed to justify that boast as never before.

Johnson was superb Sunday in his highest scoring playoff game ever, eclipsing his 42-point performance in Game 6 of the 1980 NBA finals against Philadelphia. He made 15 of 26 shots, all 12 free throws and took only a three-minute rest in the first half.

But Johnson was all the Lakers had against a balanced Sun attack and, as a result, the Lakers trail, three games to one, going into Game 5 Tuesday at the Forum. Only four teams have ever recovered from such a deficit, one being the 1970 Lakers, who won three in a row from the Suns.

Unless his teammates give Johnson some offensive help, the Lakers will be as helpless as they were in losing Game 3 by 14 points and Game 4 by 13.

"You never want to go out and try to score, like, 43 points, but in this situation, I had to," Johnson said. "My role is usually 20 points and 16 assists. But the other guys got to come on now. Hopefully, we'll get some other people playing better, so I won't have to do so much work."

James Worthy, who had been the most consistent Laker in the playoff fortnight, had his first bad game. He made five of 21 shots for 16 points, while main adversary Tom Chambers responded with 27 points.

But perhaps hurting the Lakers most is the disappearance of guard Byron Scott from the offense. Scott, perhaps preoccupied with trying to control Sun point guard Kevin Johnson, made two of eight shots for four points. He had eight points in Game 3, and has made only 46% of his shots for the series. Scott is not the only under-productive Laker. The center tandem of Mychal Thompson and Vlade Divac, which combined for five points in Game 3, combined for seven Sunday. So ineffective were the Laker big men that Coach Pat Riley started the second half without a center. Aside from Johnson, the Lakers made 20 of 60 field goal attempts.

"We got to have more people involved," Magic said. "More than just me and James. For three games, you are trying to ride everybody and get them involved and trying to get your own game going. Today, I just had to do something. I don't know which role I'm going to have to do Tuesday. Hopefully, it'll be different."

[B]Whereas the Lakers' offense relied on increasingly predictable isolation plays to Johnson, the Suns' offense was like the Lakers' used to be. They ran often and well, moved the ball briskly in their half-court offense and got nearly every player involved. No player was more effective than Kevin Johnson, who had 17 of his 30 points in the second half and was able penetrate and pass to open teammates. Chambers, who made 10 of 21 shots, was the recipient of many of Johnson's 16 assists.

Guard Jeff Hornacek, who had a career playoff-high 29 points in Game 3, scored 16 of his 23 in the first quarter, when the Suns rolled to a 36-22 lead. Hornacek made his first six shots in the first quarter, then missed his final seven shots.

When Hornacek turned cold, the Suns turned to alternative sources. Center Mark West, lightly regarded by the Lakers before this series, dominated once again. West had 15 points and 15 rebounds, blocked six shots and altered the flight of many other Laker attempts. "We had to take the ball to the basket," Sun Coach Cotton Fitzsimmons said. "If you don't take it to the basket, then you're not going to win."[/B]

Unfortunately for Los Angeles, Johnson was the only Laker who could forge past West and find room to shoot. Worthy's inside game was stifled, and forward A.C. Green's 14 points and 18 rebounds could not make much of a difference.

"A lot of it has to do with our execution," Worthy said. "And the shots we are getting aren't falling. We have to look more for our second and third options, and they've got to hit (the shots)."

Scott is not scoring, and Johnson says he does not know why. Riley suggested that having to defend Kevin Johnson has been too much for Scott. Magic doesn't think so. "There's no excuse," Magic said. "He just has to start shooting the ball well. What else do you want me to say? We all saw the game. It's just not dropping for him. It may be because of that (guarding Kevin Johnson), but I hope it's not that. He's got to guard him again Tuesday."

Said Scott of his poor shooting: "I have no idea, I don't know why. I'm just exerting a lot of energy on defense on Kevin Johnson. I don't know if I'm taking myself out of the offense. I don't think all the burden of the loss should be on me. I don't think it's just one guy not scoring. We just have to have a better collective group of guys playing harder."

Lack of effort, even when the Suns took a 36-22 first-quarter lead, was not the Lakers' problem. The Suns made 13 of 17 shots and, although they cooled in the second quarter, their lead dipped below 10 only briefly before they opened a 60-48 lead in the second half. The Lakers' dependency on Magic Johnson to the exclusion of others was most apparent with six minutes to play in the second quarter. To that point, Johnson had scored 11 consecutive Laker points. He had made nine of 12 shots. The rest of the Lakers had made five of 20. When Riley went to a small lineup at the start of the second half, Thompson was replaced by Michael Cooper, essentially making Green the center.

The smaller lineup created a few mismatches for the Suns, but Fitzsimmons stayed with West as the last line of defense inside. With Johnson accounting for 14 of their 31 third-quarter points, the Lakers pulled to 84-79 entering the fourth quarter.

But the closest the Lakers could get was 94-90 with 4:39 left. From that point, the Suns outscored the Lakers, 20-11.

After the Lakers pulled to within four, Kevin Johnson converted a three-point play after making a driving basket. The Lakers' last real chance was thwarted when Scott missed an open jumper from the right wing, and Chambers scored off the miss for a 99-90 lead. Then, Magic Johnson and Worthy failed to connect on a pass and Majerle made a fast-break layup for an 11-point lead.

"Kevin and Tom really hit some big baskets for us when the Lakers cut it to four or five," Hornacek said. "I think these last two games really gave us a glimpse of what we're capable of doing."

All it has done for the Lakers is expose the inadequacies that a 63-victory regular-season must have masked.

Laker Notes

Laker rookie Vlade Divac had played well in the Houston series and in the first two games against Phoenix, but has failed to make much of an impact in the last two games. Divac had three points and four rebounds while playing 17 minutes in Game 3 and two points and three rebounds in seven minutes of Game 4. "He hasn't been playing well these last two games," Magic Johnson said. "We've been trying to get him involved." Mychal Thompson played only six minutes in the second half of Game 4. Said Coach Pat Riley of his strategy: "It's been sporadic play from our big guys. I couldn't wait. We were down. We had to go with our quick lineup. They got us back in the game with a chance to win."

The Lakers weren't conceding the series. "The pressure is on us to win, it's cut and dried," Johnson said. "Either we come out and do it, or they'll bury us. You never really think you might be here, but it's reality. You've got to deal with it." Added Michael Cooper: "I think beads of sweat are starting to fall down my forehead. . . . I know we can come back. I still have a lot of confidence in what this team can do."

In addition to reaching his playoff high for points, Johnson had his playoff career high for field goals (15) and field goals attempts (26). . . . The Lakers returned to Los Angeles about an hour after Sunday's game and will practice at the Forum this morning.

[Illustration]
PHOTO: COLOR, James Worthy suffers on the bench in the midst of a five-for-21 shooting performance Sunday. / JAYNE KAMIN-ONCEA / Los Angeles Times; PHOTO: Magic Johnson scored a career playoff-best 43 points Sunday. Here he drives past Kevin Johnson of the Suns in the second half. / JAYNE KAMIN-ONCEA / Los Angeles Times; PHOTO: (Southland Edition) Laker James Worthy pursues ball along with Dan Majerle and Jeff Hornacek (far right) of Phoenix Suns. / Associated Press; PHOTO: Suns Set on Lakers: The Phoenix Suns took a 3-1 lead in their NBA playoff series with the Lakers, winning 114-101. Suns' Kurt Rambis, above, stole the ball from Lakers' Orlando Woolridge.