rmt is some old woman who doesnt really seem fit for this convo tbh
She doesnt get the finer things of the game at all. Dirk is a testament to that. Hes like an IQ test.
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rmt is some old woman who doesnt really seem fit for this convo tbh
She doesnt get the finer things of the game at all. Dirk is a testament to that. Hes like an IQ test.
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14871376]That's not really where I was going with it. I'm saying Kobe starting out averaging 7ppg impacted his career numbers, compared to other all-timers who were stronger producers out the game, being more mature and NBA-ready.[/QUOTE]
I think Kobe is a great example of overdoing. He wanted to become great (which is absolutely fine) but he just 'worked too much'. Less would've been more, I think. He got to a point where he was more than good enough and the emphasis should've been on team play. He wasn't bad in that regard, at least not as bas as some people trying to prove he was. He won most of the time he had a good team. Shaq+Kobe worked (until it didn't but they were both too immature). Shaq+Gasol also worked. Some people say he had very bad Finals performances against the Pistons or when they lost to Boston. Not true. He wasn't as great as he was at other times but that's about it. Still has 5 rings and it could be 7 had he played better. But to say it didn't work is false. 5 rings is not nothing.
However, he wasn't really talented. Most of what he did was dou to hard work. And that was the trap he fell in. He thought: more work on his game, even better results. I wish he worked a bit less. On the other hand, his legacy is his exactly because of his / this grinding. I can absolutely understand why someone who was deeply touched has him in his top 5. And I understand the people who 'weren't there at the time' and don't really get what is/he was all about. It took me some time after his retirement and death to assess his career 'properly'. (Meaning: in a way I can agree with myself.) I arrived at this top 5-15 since 1980 thing. Let's say: top 10ish. If you want to argue #6 or #13, I'm fine either way. (If you have him at #2 or #23 I'm still fine but I won't agree. Between 5-15 I'll agree with anybody, I think.)
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14871380]rmt is some old woman who doesnt really seem fit for this convo tbh
She doesnt get the finer things of the game at all. Dirk is a testament to that. Hes like an IQ test.[/QUOTE]
Or maybe he is not German. :-)
For a really really long time my all-time favorite tennis player was Becker. He was the one that touched me in my childhood. Was he better than Sampras or Agassi? I don't think so in retrospect.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871381]I think Kobe is a great example of overdoing. He wanted to become great (which is absolutely fine) but he just 'worked too much'. Less would've been more, I think. He got to a point where he was more than good enough and the emphasis should've been on team play. He wasn't bad in that regard, at least not as bas as some people trying to prove he was. He won most of the time he had a good team. Shaq+Kobe worked (until it didn't but they were both too immature). Shaq+Gasol also worked. [B]Some people say he had very bad Finals performances against the Pistons or when they lost to Boston. Not true. He wasn't as great as he was at other times but that's about it.[/B] Still has 5 rings and it could be 7 had he played better. But to say it didn't work is false. 5 rings is not nothing.
However, he wasn't really talented. Most of what he did was dou to hard work. And that was the trap he fell in. He thought: more work on his game, even better results. I wish he worked a bit less. On the other hand, his legacy is his exactly because of his / this grinding. I can absolutely understand why someone who was deeply touched has him in his top 5. And I understand the people who 'weren't there at the time' and don't really get what is/he was all about. It took me some time after his retirement and death to assess his career 'properly'. (Meaning: in a way I can agree with myself.) I arrived at this top 5-15 since 1980 thing. Let's say: top 10ish. If you want to argue #6 or #13, I'm fine either way. (If you have him at #2 or #23 I'm still fine but I won't agree. Between 5-15 I'll agree with anybody, I think.)[/QUOTE]
I don't know how you can say that. Kobe vs the Pistons was historically bad. 22.6 ppg on 45.6 TS% is horrific no matter how you slice it.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871381] Some people say he had very bad Finals performances against the Pistons or when they lost to Boston. Not true. He wasn't as great as he was at other times but that's about it. Still has 5 rings and it could be 7 had he played better. But to say it didn't work is false. 5 rings is not nothing.
[/QUOTE]
He was definitely bad against Detroit, playing hero ball to the tune of 23ppg on 38% effectively shot them out of the series. Granted, I still think Detroit wins even if they fed Shaq more but I doubt it's a gentlemans sweep. Malone being injured didn't help either, of course....
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871382]Or maybe he is not German. :-)
For a really really long time my all-time favorite tennis player was Becker. He was the one that touched me in my childhood. Was he better than Sampras or Agassi? I don't think so in retrospect.[/QUOTE]
I feel the same way about Federer (such a beautiful game). Djokovic's record has way surpassed Fed's (although that weeks at #1 is extended due to covid), but Fed will always be my fav.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871384]I don't know how you can say that. Kobe vs the Pistons was historically bad. 22.6 ppg on 45.6 TS% is horrific no matter how you slice it.[/QUOTE]
I agree it was plenty of bad decision making, but the one game they did win was in large part due to Kobe. At the time it happened it seemed to me the whole team was subpar. Watching the games I didn't have the feeling Shaq would deliver. Those Pistons were good and played out of their minds and the Lakers just didn't have the answers. I do understand if someone saw it differently. Even if you did, that's one year. And it's not like 'he was garbage' all year. He had a bad Finals. (How bad is subject to interpretation.) It happened to others in history. LeBron had a very bad Finals vs. the Mavs. Does that alone define him? ABsolutely not and I don't even like the guy.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14871380]rmt is some old woman who doesnt really seem fit for this convo tbh
She doesnt get the finer things of the game at all. Dirk is a testament to that. Hes like an IQ test.[/QUOTE]
True, I am an old woman :-) But who are you to determine whether I get a say in this conversation or not? I did see the entirety of Dirk's career especially the SW division battles vs Spurs - he was so touched (tears) by the video they did in his retirement game with them.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871382]Or maybe he is not German. :-)
For a really really long time my all-time favorite tennis player was Becker. He was the one that touched me in my childhood. Was he better than Sampras or Agassi? I don't think so in retrospect.[/QUOTE]
Becker was my guy too. First ever tennis match I watched in entirety( or in general IIRC) was Becker-Edberg Wimbledon 89.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871390]I agree it was plenty of bad decision making, but the one game they did win was in large part due to Kobe. At the time it happened it seemed to me the whole team was subpar. Watching the games I didn't have the feeling Shaq would deliver. Those Pistons were good and played out of their minds and the Lakers just didn't have the answers. I do understand if someone saw it differently. [B]Even if you did, that's one year. And it's not like 'he was garbage' all year.[/B] He had a bad Finals. (How bad is subject to interpretation.) It happened to others in history. LeBron had a very bad Finals vs. the Mavs. Does that alone define him? ABsolutely not and I don't even like the guy.[/QUOTE]
He wasn't garbage all year, but I remember his '04 & '05 seasons being pretty supbar for his standards considering he was pretty much unstoppable in '03. He had to go to court alot during the '04 season with the rape stuff, so I'm sure that affected him.
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14871392]Becker was my guy too. First ever tennis match I watched in entirety( or in general IIRC) was Becker-Edberg Wimbledon 89.[/QUOTE]
For me it was Becker's first championship year at Wimbledon. 1985, I think. Not sure. Somewhere there.
Losing to or playing poorly against those Pistons was no shame - they were a defensive juggernaut. Duncan doubted the 2005 Finals the most of all his Finals (probably because of all that defensive attention on him).
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871395]For me it was Becker's first championship year at Wimbledon. 1985, I think. Not sure. Somewhere there.[/QUOTE]
A 17 year old - simply amazing!!! Oh, for the good ole serve and volley days.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871394]He wasn't garbage all year, but I remember his '04 & '05 seasons being pretty supbar for his standards considering he was pretty much unstoppable in '03. He had to go to court alot during the '04 season with the rape stuff, so I'm sure that affected him.[/QUOTE]
Again, I agree. But it is something that happens to others. Nash is a very good example. He was a lot better in 2006-8 than the years before. Part of that was his 'own team' and the D'Antoni system but not all of it. He was surprisingly good all of a sudden. Dirk in 2010 and 2011, same thing. And not long before his ring he lost to GS in... well... bad fashion. LeBron is a another player who sort of reinvented himself lately. Yes, 2005 wasn't Kobe's year. Neither was 2004. But it isn't something that should define him. He did overcome all that. If anything, this should be a big plus on everyone's resume. Handling adversity.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871395]For me it was Becker's first championship year at Wimbledon. 1985, I think. Not sure. Somewhere there.[/QUOTE]
Without googling, think it was Becker in 85, Pat Cash 86, Becker 87, Edberg 88. Edit: Edberg came back in 90 to avenge his 89 loss to Becker.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871400]Again, I agree. But it is something that happens to others. Nash is a very good example. He was a lot better in 2006-8 than the years before. Part of that was his 'own team' and the D'Antoni system but not all of it. He was surprisingly good all of a sudden. Dirk in 2010 and 2011, same thing. And not long before his ring he lost to GS in... well... bad fashion. LeBron is a another player who sort of reinvented himself lately. Yes, 2005 wasn't Kobe's year. Neither was 2004. But it isn't something that should define him. He did overcome all that. If anything, this should be a big plus on everyone's resume. Handling adversity.[/QUOTE]
It's a shame that NBA gave Dirk his MVP award so late (after the loss to GS)- - seeing his look at the trophy so bittersweet - an outstanding year followed by early playoff loss. That GSW crowd was SO LOUD.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871382]Or maybe he is not German. :-)
For a really really long time my all-time favorite tennis player was Becker. He was the one that touched me in my childhood. Was he better than Sampras or Agassi? I don't think so in retrospect.[/QUOTE]
Funny story about Becker. Agassi picked up a tell on his serve. Becker used to stick his tongue out when he served, and he would stick it out in the direction he was serving. Agassi noticed this and was able to anticipate his serve for years.
It drove Becker nuts. He even complained to his wife that it was like Agassi was reading his mind. Then one day long after they had retired Agassi finally told him.
[QUOTE=rmt;14871405]It's a shame that NBA gave Dirk his MVP award so late (after the loss to GS)- - seeing his look at the trophy so bittersweet - an outstanding year followed by early playoff loss. That GSW crowd was SO LOUD.[/QUOTE]
Dirk did beat Duncan H2H with less help at their peaks in the playoffs. Unless you think Josh Howard and Jason Terry are better than Manu and Tony Parker.
[video=youtube_share;GgkqL_YhzSQ]https://youtu.be/GgkqL_YhzSQ?si=VS2PzYB_2cbkzS86[/video]
The truth is there's not much separating the top players, but Kobes work ethic and psychopathic basketball drive were gonna take him to rings no matter where he went.
I remember somebody said if he got drafted to Charlotte he'd never win. Charlotte was a 50+ win playoff team starting in 1998 in a weak East. So he definitely could've won.
People said he'd never win without Shaq. Then he won twice with him. Then they said he'd never win without the Pau trade but they gave up Marc Gasol for Pau and he ended up being just as good if not better because of his defense.
And if Kobe won with Marc/Odom/Bynum we'd hear the same thing... he was carried by his big men. Kobe would basically have to win 1v5 to get any credit.
[QUOTE=tpols;14871409][B]Dirk did beat Duncan H2H with less help at their peaks in the playoffs. Unless you think Josh Howard and Jason Terry are better than Manu and Tony Parker[/B].
[video=youtube_share;GgkqL_YhzSQ]https://youtu.be/GgkqL_YhzSQ?si=VS2PzYB_2cbkzS86[/video]
The truth is there's not much separating the top players, but Kobes work ethic and psychopathic basketball drive were gonna take him to rings no matter where he went.
I remember somebody said if he got drafted to Charlotte he'd never win. Charlotte was a 50+ win playoff team starting in 1998 in a weak East. So he definitely could've won.
People said he'd never win without Shaq. Then he won twice with him. Then they said he'd never win without the Pau trade but they gave up Marc Gasol for Pau and he ended up being just as good if not better because of his defense.
And if Kobe won with Marc/Odom/Bynum we'd hear the same thing... he was carried by his big men. Kobe would basically have to win 1v5 to get any credit.[/QUOTE]
Why do you do this? There are times when you genuinely seem interested in discussing the nuances of the game but then you go back to simple arithmetic when it suits.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14871411]Why do you do this? There are times when you genuinely seem interested in discussing the nuances of the game but then you go back to simple arithmetic when it suits.[/QUOTE]
I literally didn't use any arithmetic whatsoever in that whole post. Just words. You've lost the plot yet again mate.
But overall, yeah Kobes polarizing nature gets him more inconsistent hate than most.
Like Kawhi for example... nobody hates on Kawhi because he's quiet. I've always repped Kawhi. But if Kobe won with Marc Gasol / Serge Ibaka / Siakam frontcourt... everybody would say he was carried by his big men. Even if he hung ~ 30/5/5 just like Kawhi did.
Shit Siakam had a better Game 1 than any game of Paus career in the 2019 Finals.
[video=youtube_share;3ugrYiEl9gg]https://youtu.be/3ugrYiEl9gg?si=Rdy6YV0btyFHN55W[/video]
And people barely talked about it. If Siakam did that for Kobe we'd never hear the end of it.
Kobe got hate for not beating the stacked Suns as a 7 seed. To get credit he basically would have to win a ring with G-leaguers but even then thered be an excuse.
[QUOTE=tpols;14871412]I literally didn't use any arithmetic whatsoever in that whole post. Just words. You've lost the plot yet again mate.[/QUOTE]
:lol
Never change.
[QUOTE=tpols;14871409]
I remember somebody said if he got drafted to Charlotte he'd never win. Charlotte was a 50+ win playoff team starting in 1998 in a weak East. So he definitely could've won.
[/QUOTE]
That would make an interesting Disney 'What If' season 3. You have to suppose, ignore, and assume quite a few things for that to play out however you're imagining them to.
[QUOTE=tpols;14871418]Kobe got hate for not beating the stacked Suns as a 7 seed. To get credit he basically would have to win a ring with G-leaguers but even then thered be an excuse.[/QUOTE]
Look at it this way. Part of his greatness was him being a polarizing figure. (MJ was the same he was just a bit better and won more.) Kobe is not Kobe if he is universally loved. It works for some guys but it's rare. Most of the time if you are almost universally liked you were not that interesting. A huge chunk of the reason I enjoyed Kobe were his shortcomings and faults. It entertained me. He was absolutely human. Not boring. Some people hate him for the very same things I enjoyed following his journey. He may have tailored his game after MJ and some others (most people do) but as a personality he wasn't the 2nd this and that. He was Kobe. Why would anyone hate Tim Duncan? But why would anyone really love Tim Duncan? Even if we can all agree on him being a great dude and the 'by the book professional'. We do. But... he is just not interesting enough to hate on some 15 years later. So as for Kobe's legacy, him having some haters is not a bad thing. You saw him, you remember him. And by the vast majority of fans he is a top 5 player. At worst top 10. That's a huge accomplishment.
[QUOTE=tontoz;14871406]Funny story about Becker. Agassi picked up a tell on his serve. Becker used to stick his tongue out when he served, and he would stick it out in the direction he was serving. Agassi noticed this and was able to anticipate his serve for years.
It drove Becker nuts. He even complained to his wife that it was like Agassi was reading his mind. Then one day long after they had retired Agassi finally told him.[/QUOTE]
I didn't know that.
The matches I loved the most were the ones featuring him and Sampras at the ATP finals indoors. Really epic duels. As for Agassi, he had Becker's number. Most matches I saw went in Andre's favor. It was pretty one-sided after a certain point. I think Agassi played his best tennis against Becker (and Sampras of course but that is a lot more well known.)
Never heard about the tongue thing though. Interestingly, I started to like Agassi in his very late years when he became an underdog. And the speech he gave at his farewell game after defeat (he lost to... well... another Becker) was something I often rewatch.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14870577]
Weve all seen Kobe his whole career or a large portion of it or seen many of his games one way or another... Im now supposed to believe my eyes were deceiving me cause TS% says he was pretty efficient? Sure, he wasnt a net negative by any means, but he was clearly not as efficient as any of the guys I mentioned there.
[/QUOTE]
Didn't you start watching in '11?
Also you're taking these eFG number and say he's inefficient, because he shot 2 to 3 worse than others? That's not even one make or miss a game.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14871380]rmt is some old woman who doesnt really seem fit for this convo tbh
She doesnt get the finer things of the game at all. Dirk is a testament to that. Hes like an IQ test.[/QUOTE]
She actually watched Kobe Bryant while you were in some special education class filling out coloring books
I’m sorry she has way more expertise on this subject then some autistic european child who never even watched anything he’s trying to comment about
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14871387]He was definitely bad against Detroit, playing hero ball to the tune of 23ppg on 38% effectively shot them out of the series. Granted, I still think Detroit wins even if they fed Shaq more but I doubt it's a gentlemans sweep. Malone being injured didn't help either, of course....[/QUOTE]
kobe got shut down by a GOAT defense in legit probability the toughest defensive era. the league had to rewrite the rule book because of them
On the other hand lebron got smoked by the mavericks in a much easier league for offense
[QUOTE=tpols;14871418]But overall, yeah Kobes polarizing nature gets him more inconsistent hate than most.
Like Kawhi for example... nobody hates on Kawhi because he's quiet. I've always repped Kawhi. But if Kobe won with Marc Gasol / Serge Ibaka / Siakam frontcourt... everybody would say he was carried by his big men. Even if he hung ~ 30/5/5 just like Kawhi did.
Shit Siakam had a better Game 1 than any game of Paus career in the 2019 Finals.
[video=youtube_share;3ugrYiEl9gg]https://youtu.be/3ugrYiEl9gg?si=Rdy6YV0btyFHN55W[/video]
And people barely talked about it. If Siakam did that for Kobe we'd never hear the end of it.
Kobe got hate for not beating the stacked Suns as a 7 seed. To get credit he basically would have to win a ring with G-leaguers but even then thered be an excuse.[/QUOTE]
Kobe got hate because people also saw him as cocky and selfish before. Being too confident only showed how arrogant he is, especially to shaq bt. However, he started maturing a bit from that in his early 30s. Had he learned how to be humble since beginning, he might not have gotten viewed or treated that way.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871453]kobe got shut down by a GOAT defense in legit probability the toughest defensive era.[/QUOTE]
Richard Jefferson & Michael Redd shot better against that same Pistons team than Kobe did. Obviously you have to give the Pistons defense some credit for their defense, but I remember watching that series as it happened and some of the tough shots Kobe was taking was flat out embarrassing
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14871238]
However, why is it so damn important what the majority thinks? They are wrong on many things, aren't they? Will they change my opinion when it comes to acknowledging talent in the NBA? Not really.[/QUOTE]
100%
Not trying to attack posters here. it if you look at the group that’s crazed about how bad Kobe supposedly was….
Arbitrary Water
1987 Lakers
RRR3
What do all three of these posters have in common? None of them even BEGAN watching basketball during Kobe’s prime. In turn they have cherry picked statistics to try to do some reverse tea leaf reading to try to figure out what actually happened.
All three of these posters don’t really understand the nuances of the game. It’s basically an autistic copy paste from certain picked categories from basketball reference with the analysis of x > y! Checkmate! No context needed as well.
You have weirdos who have been harping on Kobe’s first Finals where he was 21 and Jalen Rose (who has admit this) stepped under kobe’s foot to injur him on purpose.
I’ve never heard any of these guys acknowledge that even one time. Just keep spamming the raw box while claiming he sucks or whatever.
It’s sad they have turned this into something where they can’t even have an intellectually honest conversation about it. (However unfortunately I suspect that some of these guys literally unable too, it’s not trolling, they just are incapable of doing it.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871461]Richard Jefferson & Michael Redd shot better against that same Pistons team than Kobe did. Obviously you have to give the Pistons defense some credit for their defense, but I remember watching that series as it happened and some of the tough shots Kobe was taking was flat out embarrassing[/QUOTE]
You saying Kobe had to take tough shots vs possibly the best Defense of all time?
Oh ****. This is a groundbreaking revelation.
Let’s move him down to the 50-60 range.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871462]100%
Not trying to attack posters here. it if you look at the group that’s crazed about how bad Kobe supposedly was….
Arbitrary Water
1987 Lakers
RRR3
What do all three of these posters have in common? None of them even BEGAN watching basketball during Kobe’s prime.[/QUOTE]
I joined this forum in 2007 and yet I didn't watch Kobe's prime?
Makes sense.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14871031]Yes, because Kobe wasn't a great passer and didn't have a bunch of hockey assists and passes that led to FTs for his bigs due to the triangle lol. Phil surely didn't say that KB was the best playmaker he had ever coached (better than Pip and MJ), right?
In 2013 under D'antoni, Kobe made the switch to PG mid-season (he was averaging 29.2 ppg on 57.18%TS through 42 games) with injuries & all and averaged 7.5 assists per game for a 36-game stretch until he tore his achilles.[/QUOTE]
Yea this is a good point. People forget that 2013 season. I believe the Lakers were 17-25 in those first 42 games and then when Kobe started playing more PG and playmaking, finished 25-11.
It's erroneous to think that he couldn't pass or playmake, as evidenced by how he handled the offense in 2000-02 specifically. Do people think it was Fisher carving up the defense and setting up Shaq?
Also, I think it's disingenuous for some to always take aim at Kobe for the 2000 finals while ignoring LeBron's play in 2007, which was one of the worst performances for an ATG in the finals.
Having said that, Kobe is tough to rank for me. Since I consider peak play the most, I have Wade above him. I'm open to changing that, but it is what it is. My lists are always a mess and constantly changing.
Oh, and I do think LeBron is above Kobe, though not by as wide margin as some would have it.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871463]You saying Kobe had to take tough shots vs possibly the best Defense of all time?
Oh ****. This is a groundbreaking revelation.
Let’s move him down to the 50-60 range.[/QUOTE]
He played into Detroit's hands, the Pistons were playing Shaq one on one all series long and instead of feeding him the ball, Kobe went selfish mode like he usually did and shot them out of the series. This was at the height of the Shaq-Kobe feud and Kobe wanted to prove to everyone that it was his team while hurting his team in the process.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871466]He played into Detroit's hands, the Pistons were playing Shaq one on one all series long and instead of feeding him the ball, Kobe went selfish mode like he usually did and shot them out of the series. This was at the height of the Shaq-Kobe feud and Kobe wanted to prove to everyone that it was his team while hurting his team in the process.[/QUOTE]
Ok.
So he underperformed in a Finals vs possibly the greatest defense of all time.
Case closed. Maybe we should push him out of the top 75 while we are at it
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871452]She actually watched Kobe Bryant while you were in some special education class filling out coloring books [/QUOTE]
Is she really a she? The last female I remember posting here was eons ago.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871467]Ok.
So he underperformed in a Finals vs possibly the greatest defense of all time.
Case closed. [B]Maybe we should push him out of the top 75 while we are at it[/B][/QUOTE]
Nobody is sayomg that, you excused his performance because it was a "GOAT defensive team", I simply provided more context.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14871467]Ok.
So he underperformed in a Finals vs possibly the greatest defense of all time.
Case closed. Maybe we should push him out of the top 75 while we are at it[/QUOTE]
This is a good point actually. In 2004 and 2008 Kobe faced the two greatest defensive teams of all time. That level of all-time D has to be accounted for.
[QUOTE=tontoz;14871052]With Kobes size, athleticism and skill why didn't he have at least one season with a TS of 60%? :confusedshrug:
That isn't exactly a high bar and he never even got close.[/QUOTE]
Not sure many were in that era. Don't think Kobe, AI, T-Mac, Vince, Houston, Finley, Pierce, or even Redd had a 60% TS% season from 2000-10. The only one who was really doing it was Ray Allen and he was an elite shooter. And get this, he played 18 seasons and only did it a total of 5 times.
**Just checked and Pierce did it twice. Once in 2010 and once in 2011, but you get the point.