Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

[QUOTE=3ba11;14986044].
[i]Extended demonstrations of goat-caliber[/I] are required to become GOAT, which is how MJ became the first and last consensus GOAT:


1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles [U]and[/U] MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) [url=https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TOk40Kq-O4]universally-recognized[/url] as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated [I]max defensive attention[/I] for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.


The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ is, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), while also having a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.[/QUOTE]

Stick to the OP buddy.

We don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. Jokic is above all of that. Eye test, skillset, impact shows Jokic in the GOAT category.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14986048]

I'm a sad little basement-dwelling dweeb who quoted a post exclusively about Hakeem and Jokic, used it as a platform to go on an irrelevant pro-MJ/anti Lebron tirade, then turned in a passive aggressive bitch when someone responds to me with a post equally as pointless as mine was to the person I initially responded to. In short, my mother should have swallowed on my night of conception :)


[/QUOTE]

Duly noted.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986053]Stick to the OP buddy.

We don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. Jokic is above all of that. Eye test, skillset, impact shows Jokic in the GOAT category.[/QUOTE]

Why are you even bothering to respond seriously to that? You were talking about Hakeem and Jokic and he hijacks it with a MJ copy/paste. The only thing he warrants is having his bullshit hijacked in response if not ignored.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14986025]I didn't say as a total scorer. Just as a shooter.[/QUOTE]

I mean you said shooter shot maker but that's literally how Jokic scores. That and in the post which is exactly what Bird did too. Jokic just does it better.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986034]If Bird was 7 feet, 280 pounds, then his play style would look just like Jokic's. The size difference accounts for the small differences is playstyle, but the actual skill set between the two is extremely similar, even their jump shooting form.

Since the 3-point line inception, Bird was the original best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player. Then Lebron came and took that title, albeit in a very different way. However Jokic is closer to Bird 2.0, and Jokic is now arguably the best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player ever at his peak.[/QUOTE]

I suppose that's fair. But at the same time, size matters and it DOES change how you play.

And if it matters at all, Bird was more of a motherfvcker than Jokic I think. If we can cross numbers by era then we can do the same with mentalities. Not to say that Jokic is soft because he isn't but you couldn't phase Bird and I can see Jokic getting a little pissy at times and it affects his game a little bit.

I agree honestly in terms of peaks or prime stretch. He is up there. I think the only that holds him back from being the contention of the GOAT is his defense. I think he is the best offensive floor raiser I ever seen.

I don't think he has the best offensive ceiling per say, but he is damn good. Best offensive player I seen.

So we're putting Giannis top 10 all-time as well then? He's barely behind Jokic in most of these seasons and has averaged 30/12/6 63%TS since 2018. Jokic clearly has ATG impact but it's hard to say he's better than most of the other greats just because stats in today's NBA when we got 3 other guys (Giannis, SGA and Luka when healthy) who are producing near that level as well.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14986144]So we're putting Giannis top 10 all-time as well then? He's barely behind Jokic in most of these seasons and has averaged 30/12/6 63%TS since 2018. Jokic clearly has ATG impact but it's hard to say he's better than most of the other greats just because stats in today's NBA when we got 3 other guys (Giannis, SGA and Luka when healthy) who are producing near that level as well.[/QUOTE]
Is ad better than joker tho?

[QUOTE=Axe;14986145]Is ad better than joker tho?[/QUOTE]

No but it has nothing to do with this thread.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14986144]So we're putting Giannis top 10 all-time as well then? He's barely behind Jokic in most of these seasons and has averaged 30/12/6 63%TS since 2018. Jokic clearly has ATG impact but it's hard to say he's better than most of the other greats just because stats in today's NBA when we got 3 other guys (Giannis, SGA and Luka when healthy) who are producing near that level as well.[/QUOTE]

Giannis is insanely dominant, sort of a modern day Shaq (not exactly Shaq obviously, but Giannis fills the most physically dominant big man role). But he isn't quite up to Jokic.

Regular Season Jokic 21-25: [B]31.8 PER, 66.3 TS%, .304 WS/48, 13.1 BPM[/B]

Regular Season Giannis 21-25: 30 PER, 62.8 TS%, .241 WS/48, 9.3 BPM

Playoff Jokic 21-25 (47 games): [B]30.7 PER, 62.2 TS%, .259 WS/48, 11.9 BPM[/B]

Playoff Giannis 20-23 (45 games): 27.5 PER, 58.2 TS%, .200 WS/48, 9.8 BPM

Jokic is better across the board. Giannis IS an all time great though, not exactly sure where I would rank him. Top 20 all time easily. My only small issue with Giannis is he hasn't quite shined in the playoffs outside of 2021 (which also had a lot of injury luck). His 2021 finals WAS one of the best performances of all time. Giannis also has barely played in the playoffs recently (only 3 games in 2023, none in 2024) due to injury, so he's taken a backseat to Jokic.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14986144][B]So we're putting Giannis top 10 all-time as well then?[/B] He's barely behind Jokic in most of these seasons and has averaged 30/12/6 63%TS since 2018. Jokic clearly has ATG impact but it's hard to say he's better than most of the other greats just because stats in today's NBA when we got 3 other guys (Giannis, SGA and Luka when healthy) who are producing near that level as well.[/QUOTE]

Jokic isn't top 10 all-time as far as rankings go yet, so no. Both have been playing long enough and achieved enough to be top 20 though.

I feel like its become convoluted enough now that it's better to do tiers. There's like 15 guys who could be legit 'top 10' players, and also 15 guys who could be 'top 10-20'. You're gonna end up with some people ranking someone like Steph outside the top 10, or Dirk outside the top 20 when they each have cases to be in those respective classes. It's getting harder to remove people. How long before someone like Duncan is pushed out in favor of Jokic? Are Magic and Bird locked into the top 10 for all eternity? Does Oscar's legacy as being this top 12ish level player fade more because Jokic is now doing a triple double and will probably do it multiple times over the next 5 years( and of course, Westbrook did it several time prior but he's not viewed as a GOAT level player)? Will Kobe end up dropping from bubble top 10 to like 15th in the next decade? What about Hakeem? In 40 years it will be 100 years since Bill Russell won 11 rings Will it just be seen as a relic of a bygone era ( I think that's already happening) that would be impossible to replicate so people just stop c assigning it much value?

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14986152]Jokic isn't top 10 all-time as far as rankings go yet, so no. Both have been playing long enough and achieved enough to be top 20 though.

I feel like its become convoluted enough now that it's better to do tiers. There's like 15 guys who could be legit 'top 10' players, and also 15 guys who could be 'top 10-20'. You're gonna end up with some people ranking someone like Steph outside the top 10, or Dirk outside the top 20 when they each have cases to be in those respective classes. It's getting harder to remove people. How long before someone like Duncan is pushed out in favor of Jokic? Are Magic and Bird locked into the top 10 for all eternity? Does Oscar's legacy as being this top 12ish level player fade more because Jokic is now doing a triple double and will probably do it multiple times over the next 5 years( and of course, Westbrook did it several time prior but he's not viewed as a GOAT level player)? Will Kobe end up dropping from bubble top 10 to like 15th in the next decade? What about Hakeem? In 40 years it will be 100 years since Bill Russell won 11 rings Will it just be seen as a relic of a bygone era ( I think that's already happening) that would be impossible to replicate so people just stop c assigning it much value?[/QUOTE]

The best way to rank in my opinion is pre-3 point line and post-3 point line. Although you could argue 2021 is a start of it's own era too.

So we basically got 1949-1979 as an "era", 1980-2020 as an "era", and now 2021-onwards as a third era.

Would make ranking players much easier except for maybe an odd case like Kareem who played in both of the first two eras.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986154]The best way to rank in my opinion is pre-3 point line and post-3 point line. Although you could argue 2021 is a start of it's own era too.

So we basically got 1949-1979 as an "era", 1980-2020 as an "era", and now 2021-onwards as a third era.

Would make ranking players much easier except for maybe an odd case like Kareem who played in both of the first two eras.[/QUOTE]

I tend to think there's been 4 different versions of the NBA, and while there are of course greats that transcend eras, so many things in terms of accomplishments and stats are circumstantial that it's really tough to compare the more time goes on. Its much better to rank the relative dominance of someone against their peers than someone playing 50 years ago.

As far as Jokic goes, it's much easier in terms of both physical, skill and mental attributes to say he's a modern day Bird more than any of the other players in recent memory who wore that moniker( like Dirk and Luka even though neither played anything like him). But it does give us a good proxy to drop Bird in this era or Jokic in the 80's and extrapolate how good they'd be. My main thing is, will Jokic even be allowed to play like that in the 80s or forced to play like the centers back then. He may have been prime Sabonis before he got to the NBA.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986154]The best way to rank in my opinion is pre-3 point line and post-3 point line. Although you could argue 2021 is a start of it's own era too.

So we basically got 1949-1979 as an "era", 1980-2020 as an "era", and now 2021-onwards as a third era.

Would make ranking players much easier except for maybe an odd case like Kareem who played in both of the first two eras.[/QUOTE]
We're really lumping in the pre shot clock era with the 60's & 70's, or the late 90's/early 00's with the late 2010's. That's no good either :lol The league was radically different during those timeframes.

The best you can do is determine who was the best during their era, the league simply changes too frequently to try to make any reasonable comparison between players decades apart.

[I]"My main thing is, will Jokic even be allowed to play like that in the 80s or forced to play like the centers back then. He may have been prime Sabonis before he got to the NBA. "[/I]

Thinking more on that statement I made above, it's not even a question of whether Jokic would be allowed to play in the 80s or 90s like he does now, because he wouldn't have developed the same skillset or at least to the same degree, especially his shooting range attempts. If you were taking 4.5 threes in the 90s like what Jokic is doing now, you were either Reggie, Mark Price or Glen Rice. He'd be great at passing because guys like Vlade and Sabonis were great big man passers, but not to the degree where they're in essence the teams point-center like Jokic is dropping 10 dimes a night. We should be arguing where he ranks as a point guard as much as where he does a center, because the lines are blurred with him.

Ultimately, these all-time greats( Jokic included) will be great in any era and develop whatever they need to. David Robinson would probably be something like Giannis today if he came out in 2015, because by then we had moved beyond the logic that 7 footers needed to park their asses in the post and stay there( and the Admiral even in the 90s was more a face-up scorer at the elbow than he was mixing it up in the post).

Am I the only one that doesn't think the threes are that important to Jokic's individual greatness? It's a nice weapon to have but if he stayed in the paint he would still be a major scoring threat, great passer and great rebounder.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14986171]We're really lumping in the pre shot clock era with the 60's & 70's, or the late 90's/early 00's with the late 2010's. That's no good either :lol The league was radically different during those timeframes.

The best you can do is determine who was the best during their era, the league simply changes too frequently to try to make any reasonable comparison between players decades apart.[/QUOTE]

Okay well Jokic is about to be the best player for a 5th year in a row. Who else has done that besides MJ, Lebron, and maybe Kareem? I guess Mikan maybe?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14986192][B]Am I the only one that doesn't think the threes are that important to Jokic's individual greatness[/B]? It's a nice weapon to have but if he stayed in the paint he would still be a major scoring threat, great passer and great rebounder.[/QUOTE]

He 'only' takes 4.5 a game so no, it's not. It's just another weapon in his arsenal to keep the defense honest, but he's clearly BITW/GOAT level without it. It's more like '[I]Jesus, this dude was already an MVP and now he's shooting 45% on 3's too[/I]?'

He’s not tho.

Somewhere in the top 20 currently.

Will be top 12-15 when done.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984734]You can't make an argument for anyone besides Kareem/MJ/Lebron to be ahead of peak Jokic. This isn't a short peak either, we are on 5 years of absurd dominance. Jokic simply has had WAY less help than Kareem/MJ/Lebron, which isn't debatable.[/QUOTE]

I'd take Wilt Chamberlain over Joker, but yeah, he's easily among the best ever already.

[QUOTE=BarberSchool;14986446]He’s not tho.

Somewhere in the top 20 currently.

Will be top 12-15 when done.[/QUOTE]

What will make him better when he's done?

[QUOTE=BarberSchool;14986446]He’s not tho.

Somewhere in the top 20 currently.

Will be top 12-15 when done.[/QUOTE]

OP isn't talking about rankings, all that is legacy and based on circumstantial stats and achievements. This is simply about how 'good' Jokic is as far as what he does on the court. And from what I've seen here, the main talking point is that Jokic is so transcendent offensively that it puts him ahead of players who may be better 'two-way' players ( like Hakeem, as mentioned in the thread earlier). I don't know where I land on that, but there's no question that we are watching a historically significant player right now.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986193]Okay well Jokic is about to be the best player for a 5th year in a row. Who else has done that besides MJ, Lebron, and maybe Kareem? I guess Mikan maybe?[/QUOTE]

I don't think Kareem ever had 5 years in a row of greatness...Mikan, Wilt, Dr. J, Bird, MJ, and Lebron

Relegating this one because I just heard a Bird argument earlier.

Dude played like Jokic as a slow passer a lot of times but got to his spots went off offensively like a “fvck you” version of Dirk at times as well.

Jokic can score efficiently in the paint because he’s enormous and make jumpers when people sag but Bird would run the court and pull up on people and hit everything when he got that feeling. He wasn’t better or worse than Jokic but definitely different.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14987467]Relegating this one because I just heard a Bird argument earlier.

Dude played like Jokic as a slow passer a lot of times but got to his spots went off offensively like a “fvck you” version of Dirk at times as well.

Jokic can score efficiently in the paint because he’s enormous and make jumpers when people sag but Bird would run the court and pull up on people and hit everything when he got that feeling. He wasn’t better or worse than Jokic but definitely different.[/QUOTE]
Jokic is definitely better on offense. If you're arguing for Bird you gotta use the defensive side of the ball. I don't even like Jokic so I'm not being biased, he just is a much more reliable playoff scorer than Bird.

I’m not talking about who’s better. I’m just saying play style.

Jokic 61/10/10 with 2 steals on elite efficiency.

Seriously it's lame how people are still "waiting" to crown this guy. He is probably having the best regular season in the 3-point ERA right now.

Idk, people can wait all they want, Jokic is already top 4-5 all time for me. I don't care about "greatness/resume/narratives". Just pure impact/basketball ability/skills, Jokic is literally up there with MJ, Lebron, and Kareem.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989428]Jokic 61/10/10 with 2 steals on elite efficiency.

Seriously it's lame how people are still "waiting" to crown this guy. He is probably having the best regular season in the 3-point ERA right now.

Idk, people can wait all they want, Jokic is already top 4-5 all time for me. I don't care about "greatness/resume/narratives". [B]Just pure impact/basketball ability/skills[/B], Jokic is literally up there with MJ, Lebron, and Kareem.[/QUOTE]
Then why is he above Chamberlain? And is it at all important that a player is a great defender?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989443]Then why is he above Chamberlain? And is it at all important that a player is a great defender?[/QUOTE]

I guess I'm okay with throwing Wilt in the top 5 with Jokic.

Idk though, it's hard for me to take that era too seriously given the total lack of footage and completely different rules/NBA setup.

I give Kareem benefit of the doubt because he actually played through the entire 80's decade and was great even as an old/out of prime player.

And no, an individual player does not have to be a "great" defender if the rest of the players abilities are game-breaking. Jokic's level on defense is adequate enough, he's at least a league leader in steals and deflections, and has high BBIQ.

Don't literally all the stats show Denver is signicantly better on defense with jokic on the court?

He's not a highlight defense guy, but his impact there is shown to be positive. Like... as a fact. Just because he's white and has dumpy athleticism doesn't mean he doesn't understand angles, anticipate correctly, or give good effort in general on D.

It's a wierd meme people push. Magic was much worse on defense than Jokic and that would be highlighted today even more with all the quick guards and outside shooting.

[QUOTE=tpols;14989447]Don't literally all the stats show Denver is signicantly better on defense with jokic on the court?

He's not a highlight defense guy, but his impact there is shown to be positive. Like... as a fact. Just because he's white and has dumpy athleticism doesn't mean he doesn't understand angles, anticipate correctly, or give good effort in general on D.

It's a wierd meme people push. Magic was much worse on defense than Jokic and that would be highlighted today even more with all the quick guards and outside shooting.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, the only thing Jokic is actually not good at on defense is rim-protection. Obviously that is important, but he knows his limits and is good at positioning himself smartly on defense and limiting fouls instead of having dumb contests at the rim that he can't stop.

All players have SOME weakness to their game. Jokic is just groundbreaking everywhere else in basketball except for rim protection, so who cares. MJ couldn't shoot threes, Kareem couldn't either nor could he playmake like a PG, Lebron has limitations to his game too AND the 2011 finals debacle.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989448]Exactly, the only thing Jokic is actually not good at on defense is rim-protection. Obviously that is important, but he knows his limits and is good at positioning himself smartly on defense and limiting fouls instead of having dumb contests at the rim that he can't stop.

All players have SOME weakness to their game. Jokic is just groundbreaking everywhere else in basketball except for rim protection, so who cares. MJ couldn't shoot threes, Kareem couldn't either nor could he playmake like a PG, Lebron has limitations to his game too AND the 2011 finals debacle.[/QUOTE]

A huge reason Jokic doesn't try to block shots is to avoid foul trouble in this WWE league.

It's somehow more logical for him to let them go just so he can slice and dice them on the other end. That's a ref and flop thing though. In a perfect competitive environment his defense would be even better because he wouldn't have to hold back.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989446]I guess I'm okay with throwing Wilt in the top 5 with Jokic.

Idk though, it's hard for me to take that era too seriously given the total lack of footage and completely different rules/NBA setup.

I give Kareem benefit of the doubt because he actually played through the entire 80's decade and was great even as an old/out of prime player.

And no, an individual player does not have to be a "great" defender if the rest of the players abilities are game-breaking. Jokic's level on defense is adequate enough, he's at least a league leader in steals and deflections, and has high BBIQ.[/QUOTE]A player doesn't"have" to be anything. The question is whether or not defense is important. Is it?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989451]A player doesn't"have" to be anything. The question is whether or not defense is important. Is it?[/QUOTE]

I already gave you my answer :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989456]I already gave you my answer :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Does it advance the argument for another player if he's a great defender?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989457]Does it advance the argument for another player if he's a great defender?[/QUOTE]

Obviously

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14989459]Obviously[/QUOTE]
So going back to olajuwon, he has a few 27 ppg seasons. Jokic is better offensively, but it's that gap enough to make up for Olajuwon being one of the fastest defenders of all time, whereas Jokic as a defender is about average, maybe a little above that but definitely not one of the greatest ever?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989464]So going back to olajuwon, he has a few 27 ppg seasons. Jokic is better offensively, but it's that gap enough to make up for Olajuwon being one of the fastest defenders of all time, whereas Jokic as a defender is about average, maybe a little above that but definitely not one of the greatest ever?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

Jokic this year is top 3 (per game) in points, rebounds, assists, steals, deflections, all while having the highest TS% in the league by a long margin for any volume scorers AND he is has the second best assist/TO ratio for high volume passers.

Jokic's peak is going on five years as the best player in the league.

I mean, do you rank Magic above Hakeem? If yes, then Jokic is ahead too.

Magic won 5 championships. Piling up trophies like that puts him at a higher level. To be fair I acknowledge he wasn't a great defender either but 5 championships as best player is the definition of dominance.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14989545]Magic won 5 championships. Piling up trophies like that puts him at a higher level. To be fair I acknowledge he wasn't a great defender either but 5 championships as best player is the definition of dominance.[/QUOTE]
You're using team accomplishments to determine who the better individual player is, literally the most flawed metric NBA fans use, esp if we're talking strictly peak play. Kareem was also definitely the Lakers best player that first year they won together, and could be argued for 1 or 2 other titles as well.

Magic would have 1 title at best like Jokic with this Denver team, and even then I'm not convinced he'd be able to duplicate what Jokic did against Phoenix that year.