+2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not lebron

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15023153]And Pippen was without question a top 10 player throughout the 90's, making 3ball's entire premise moot. Considering Richmond was making All-NBA multiple times on sub 30 win teams, it's safe to say Pippen would've been a perennial All-NBA player regardless of where he played.[/QUOTE]

The problem is Pippen didn't play like a top 10 player in the playoffs in any year except 1991. He was getting outplayed in series by guys like Xavier McDaniels and Detlef Shremph and other not even close to top 10 players in his prime peak in playoff series.

He is better than Klay though I'll give you that because when his shot wasnt falling his defense actually was on GOAT tier and its measurable unlike Klay. Pippen is the only player to lead league in DRTG in the 90s that wasnt a center ~ Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson.

[QUOTE=tpols;15023185]The problem is Pippen didn't play like a top 10 player in the playoffs in any year except 1991. He was getting outplayed in series by guys like Xavier McDaniels and Detlef Shremph and other not even close to top 10 players in his prime peak in playoff series.

He is better than Klay though I'll give you that because when his shot wasnt falling his defense actually was on GOAT tier and its measurable unlike Klay. Pippen is the only player to lead league in DRTG in the 90s that wasnt a center ~ Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson.[/QUOTE]


In addition to defense and ballhandling, Pippen's strength was that he ran the court like a deer.

Normally, a player doesn't have to worry about running the court - it's something that is done naturally.. But when a defender has to actually focus on not getting beat down the court on every possession, it takes a toll and their offense - that's what Pippen did to guys - he destroyed them in transition and secondary breaks.. And his IQ was excellent - he learned the triangle to absolute perfection, which was necessary for him because his halfcourt offense otherwise struggled.

All that being said, there are many ways to skin a cat defensively... An upgrade from Paxson to Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell would improve the playmaking and defense at that position, thereby allowing Pippen to be "downgraded" to Horry... Essentially, give MJ the same cast Hakeem had, and he would win pretty much the same way.. Of course, Horry was an excellent defender that provided the clutch and spacing that Pippen couldn't, which culminated in a 95' Finals performance and gamescore that Pippen never matched in 6 tries.

[QUOTE=tpols;15023185]The problem is Pippen didn't play like a top 10 player in the playoffs in any year except 1991. He was getting outplayed in series by guys like Xavier McDaniels and Detlef Shremph and other not even close to top 10 players in his prime peak in playoff series.

He is better than Klay though I'll give you that because when his shot wasnt falling his defense actually was on GOAT tier and its measurable unlike Klay. Pippen is the only player to lead league in DRTG in the 90s that wasnt a center ~ Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson.[/QUOTE]
As you know All-NBA isn't based off the playoffs, so even if his play did drop off in the postseason, that doesn't change the fact he would've been a perennial All-NBA player regardless of the team that he played for.

And here's where context is important, even if you believe his level of play dropped in the postseason, he still outscored the opposing teams 2nd option in 18 of 24 playoff series during their title runs, so factoring in his GOAT tier defense and playmaking, he was still very often at worst the 3rd best player on the floor in the vast majority of these series.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15023188]In addition to defense and ballhandling, Pippen's strength was that he ran the court like a deer.

[B]Normally, a player doesn't have to worry about running the court - it's something that is done naturally.. But when a defender has to actually focus on not getting beat down the court on every possession, it takes a toll and their offense - that's what Pippen did to guys - he destroyed them in transition and secondary breaks.. And his IQ was excellent - he learned the triangle to absolute perfection, which was necessary for him because his halfcourt offense otherwise struggled.[/B]

All that being said, there are many ways to skin a cat defensively... An upgrade from Paxson to Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell would improve the playmaking and defense at that position, thereby allowing Pippen to be "downgraded" to Horry... Essentially, give MJ the same cast Hakeem had, and he would win pretty much the same way.. Of course, Horry was an excellent defender that provided the clutch and spacing that Pippen couldn't, which culminated in a 95' Finals performance and gamescore that Pippen never matched in 6 tries.[/QUOTE]

Whoa! The rare Pippen compliment :lol

It's funny how opposing SG's always gush about MJ's defense - they say things like "if MJ didn't want you to score - you didn't score"... But why don't SF's say that about Pippen??... It's because they all destroyed Pippen and scored on him at will.. There are videos of Schrempf, Mullin, Glenn Robinson, Mashburn and Grant Hill making Pippen look like he's in high school - Pippen couldn't BEGIN to stop opposing SF's... They all had their way with him - even a hobbled Worthy was scoring on Pippen like he wasn't even there in the 91' Finals.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15023193]As you know All-NBA isn't based off the playoffs, so even if his play did drop off in the postseason, that doesn't change the fact he would've been a perennial All-NBA player regardless of the team that he played for.

And here's where context is important, even if you believe his level of play dropped in the postseason, he still outscored the opposing teams 2nd option in 18 of 24 playoff series during their title runs, so factoring in his GOAT tier defense and playmaking, he was still very often at worst the 3rd best player on the floor in the vast majority of these series.[/QUOTE]


It took 67 wins and league favorite status for Pippen or Klay to get All-NBA - this is very telling... Unlike 1st options, 2nd options don't get All-NBA with losing records, so they rely on winning spotlight to appear worthy to the media.

Pippen scored automatic system points and usually shot much worse than any of the main scoring options on either team, so his scoring was usually inferior and less impactful than the opposing 2nd and 3rd options.

And the only guys that Pippen outscored in the playoffs were opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ, otherwise he was outscored by the majority of SF's in his playoff career - this includes Aguirre, Nance, Johny Newman, X-Man, Dominique, Larry Johnson, Penny, Schrempf, Juwan Howard, Rice twice, and many more..

Pippen's true shooting was below league average for every year of his playoff career, except 89', 90', and 01-03' (no burden) or 91'.. 91' was his only viable run where he was a reliable 2nd option, and it was still a pedestrian run compared to the best sidekick runs in history.

The reality is that MJ won his first title with 17.8 ppg from Pippen, which is the same as Mo Williams in 2009, except the Cavs had much better team defense than the Bulls.. So the 09' Cavs had more help on both sides of the ball than the 91' Bulls.

Btw, the only people that compliment Pippen's defense are the media, which includes ex-players in the media - NONE of his SF matchups praise his defense because they all destroyed Pippen... Mashburn dropped 50 in Pippen, while Glenn Robinson, Worthy, X-Man, Rice and virtually every SF in the league scored on Pippen [U]at will[/U] - no one was shut down by him.. It's telling because opposing SG's always said things like "if MJ didn't want you to score - you didn't score", but opposing SF's never say anything like that about Pippen... Pippen was a good defender, but his defense got overrated, i.e. the media couldn't compliment his offense, so they got really good at complimenting his defense.