Better at basketball, Jokić or Kobe?

[QUOTE=tpols;15031270]I'm really not.

He is great but hes a weaker effeminate Kobe. Kobe had the same midrange skills or better, plus he could slam on you around the rim mixtape poster style where as SGA cant at all and flops in the paint instead of being a man. SGA... by comparison is like the gay Kobe. Worse passer and defender as well.

Yet in today's era SGA outshoots MJ, Kobe, and Wade efficiency wise. Hes not better than any of them though and you'd have to be Ray Charles to not see it.[/QUOTE]
SGA is better than Kobe gramps hate to break it to you. Your boy just didn’t have that high of a peak when it comes down to the stats you love.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031228]The picture is self explanatory. All 5 defenders are looking at Steph and ignoring a wide open KD.[/QUOTE]

Defenders looking at the ball handler is nothing new.

[QUOTE=tpols;15031270]I'm really not.

He is great but hes a weaker effeminate Kobe. Kobe had the same midrange skills or better, plus he could slam on you around the rim mixtape poster style where as SGA cant at all and flops in the paint instead of being a man. SGA... by comparison is like the gay Kobe. Worse passer and defender as well.

Yet in today's era SGA outshoots MJ, Kobe, and Wade efficiency wise. Hes not better than any of them though and you'd have to be Ray Charles to not see it.[/QUOTE]

Co-signed

SGA is amazing, but he's not Kobe. At least not yet.

SGA can create off the dribble with the best of them. Kobe can create off the catch. Kobe can create separation without dribbling.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031277]Co-signed

SGA is amazing, but he's not Kobe. At least not yet.

SGA can create off the dribble with the best of them. Kobe can create off the catch. Kobe can create separation without dribbling.[/QUOTE]
SGA just had a better season than Kobe ever did. Take off the nostalgia goggles.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031271]Of course all shots count, but his sample sizes are minute compared to his 3pa %. His size and amazing ability to shoot the 3's is what has kept him from taking more shots inside the arc. Like I said, it's not his fault it's just the way it panned out.

Been in the league 16yrs but all shot attempt %'s inside the arc combined doesn't pass the 52% of his shots coming from 3[/QUOTE]



21% of Steph's shots for his career came from 10 feet out to the 3 pt line. If that isn't a valid sample size then KD's 3 pt sample size isn't valid either.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031275]Defenders looking at the ball handler is nothing new.[/QUOTE]


Not all 5 of them while ignoring "the best shooter in history" :lol that is wide open.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031273]Pau arguably should have been FMVP in the 2010 finals so it’s hilarious you’re hung up on Murray who’s never even been an allstar. Furthermore his stats are worse when Jokic isn’t on the court. So yeah Jokic’s passing is helping him a lot. [B][SIZE=4]And I never said Jokic could win a ring just by passing alone[/SIZE][/B] you’re twisting things like you always do because it enrages you Jokic is so much better than your hero. I said he can win a game with passing.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031232]You are cherry picking individual games to claim scrubs like Jalen Pickett can score :oldlol:
He averaged FOUR ppg. And no sorry Kobe has never been tasked with the same responsibilities in terms of playmaking as Jokic is. He was too busy forcing up contested shots. [B][SIZE=4]Jokic can win a game with his passing alone.[/SIZE][/B] Kobe couldn’t do that.[/QUOTE]

So then what was the point in bringing it up then? Who cares if Yolk can win a game here and there, we're talking about playoff runs. We're talking about rangz.

Kobe proved on multiple occasions that he can lead a contender so long as he has another guy in the lineup who could score and alleviate some pressure. Pau was great for the Lakers but he was always Plan B when Plan A didn't work. Thankfully he came through for them. More often than not though Plan A worked. Five rangz. Seven finals.

Yolk can be the leader for 3.5 quarters, but he's never proven he can be THE GUY to dominate down the stretch. That's why Jamal Murray was so important for them. In some of those games you can't deny that he was Plan A.

But when [B]JAMAL MURRAY[/B] is your Plan A over Yolk, that pretty much disqualifies him from being in the same discussion as a scorer with Kobe.

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031281]So then what was the point in bringing it up then? Who cares if Yolk can win a game here and there, we're talking about playoff runs. We're talking about rangz.

Kobe proved on multiple occasions that he can lead a contender so long as he has another guy in the lineup who could score and alleviate some pressure. Pau was great for the Lakers but he was always Plan B when Plan A didn't work. Thankfully he came through for them. More often than not though Plan A worked. Five rangz. Seven finals.

Yolk can be the leader for 3.5 quarters, but he's never proven he can be THE GUY to dominate down the stretch. That's why Jamal Murray was so important for them. In some of those games you can't deny that he was Plan A.

But when [B]JAMAL MURRAY[/B] is your Plan A over Yolk, that pretty much disqualifies him from being in the same discussion as a scorer with Kobe.

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Jokic outscores Murray what are you talking about? You’re cherry picking games where Murray gets hot to try and act like Jokic isn’t their first option. It’s incredibly disingenuous. Meanwhile most of Kobe’s rings he was the Jamal Murray to Shaq’s Jokic :lol

A lot of these Lebron stans lost their nut over Paus 18/10 but want to disparage Murray putting up a Michael Jordan line. :lol

Too funny.

And the ultimate irony is Murray did it vs Lebrons Lakers so they had a front row seat. They watched it.

[QUOTE=tpols;15031283]A lot of these Lebron stans lost their nut over Paus 18/10 but want to disparage Murray putting up a Michael Jordan line. :lol

Too funny.

And the ultimate irony is Murray did it vs Lebrons Lakers so they had a front row seat.[/QUOTE]
Jamal Murray has never even been an allstar. Pau is in the HOF. levels to this shit.

[QUOTE=tpols;15031283]A lot of these Lebron stans lost their nut over Paus 18/10 but want to disparage Murray putting up a Michael Jordan line. :lol

Too funny.

And the ultimate irony is Murray did it vs Lebrons Lakers so they had a front row seat. They watched it.[/QUOTE]



Murrray's best playoff run doesn't even equal the career playoff average for Jokic.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031284]Jamal Murray has never even been an allstar. Pau is in the HOF. levels to this shit.[/QUOTE]

Jamal Murray averaged 33/6/5 on sniper 53/41/95 splits.

:biggums:

Thats better than Kobe AND Jordan. And he did it against your boy.

You saw it.

[QUOTE=tpols;15031287]Jamal Murray averaged 33/6/5 on sniper 53/41/95 splits.

:biggums:

Thats better than Kobe AND Jordan. And he did it against your boy.

You saw it.[/QUOTE]
That’s what happens when you’re being guarded by D’Angelo Russell and left open (Darvin Ham stupidly told them to go under screens on Murray). Quit deflecting from the fact that Jokic didn’t need as much help as your hero.

I mean... he needed less.

Theres no universe where Pau puts up those numbers. Hes never came remotely close.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031280]Not all 5 of them while ignoring "the best shooter in history" :lol that is wide open.[/QUOTE]

Can you provide the in-game clip so we can actually watch and see how all that unfolded? How it got to that point?

Thanks .....

[QUOTE=tpols;15031289]I mean... he needed less.

Theres no universe where Pau puts up those numbers. Hes never came remotely close.[/QUOTE]
Ttrolls ladies and gentlemen :facepalm. Jamal Murray having one hot series against a horribly coached team that gave him open jumpers means he’s better than Pau Gasol. What an idiot.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031279]21% of Steph's shots for his career came from 10 feet out to the 3 pt line. If that isn't a valid sample size then KD's 3 pt sample size isn't valid either.[/QUOTE]

When it comes to middles and closer, it's safe to say Curry avoids those shots, which isn't a bad thing for him.

It just shows he trusts his 3 more than his 2 unlike KD who trusts himself from anywhere.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031290]Can you provide the in-game clip so we can actually watch and see how all that unfolded? How it got to that point?

Thanks .....[/QUOTE]


if that is what you want you could just rewatch the game. Game 5 in '17. Curry got to the foul line 15 times that game, another sign of just how much the Cavs D was focusing on him.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031284]Jamal Murray has never even been an allstar. Pau is in the HOF. levels to this shit.[/QUOTE]

Murry put up All-Star numbers in the 2023 postseason. That's irrefutable....

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031292]When it comes to middles and closer, it's safe to say Curry avoids those shots, which isn't a bad thing for him.

It just shows he trusts his 3 more than his 2 unlike KD who trusts himself from anywhere.[/QUOTE]


Then why doesnt KD take more 3? They are worth 50% more points and nobody is going to block his shot so it doesn't make sense to take midrange shots in favor of 3s.

The fact is that 21% of Curry's shots come from 10 feet out to the 3 pt line. Over 16 seasons that is a huge sample size.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031294]Murry put up All-Star numbers in the 2023 postseason. That's irrefutable....[/QUOTE]


Yet those numbers dont equal Jokers career playoff averages.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031291]Ttrolls ladies and gentlemen :facepalm. Jamal Murray having one hot series against a horribly coached team that gave him open jumpers means he’s better than Pau Gasol. What an idiot.[/QUOTE]

Murray averaged 26/6/5 in the two series before that as well. :lol

Youre a doofus. Guy simply balled out.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031293]if that is what you want you could just rewatch the game. Game 5 in '17. Curry got to the foul line 15 times that game, another sign of just how much the Cavs D was focusing on him.[/QUOTE]

That's not even the Cavs that GS is playing in that picture unless you think #5 guarding the paint is J.R Smith :lol

[QUOTE=tpols;15031297]Murray averaged 26/6/5 in the two series before that as well. :lol

Youre a doofus. Guy simply balled out.[/QUOTE]
26/6/5 is not the same. You are seriously trying to argue Jokic had more help relative to league than Kobe did. Embarrassing. His third best teammate was who KCP? :lol MPJ? :oldlol: Aaron Gordon? :lol your boy always had the best supporting cast in the league when he won Jokic won without that.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031296]Yet those numbers dont equal Jokers career playoff averages.[/QUOTE]

Who said they did, chico?

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031294]Murry put up All-Star numbers in the 2023 postseason. That's irrefutable....[/QUOTE]

RRR3 would rather have Mo Williams than Jamal Murray because hey! Mo has made an All Star team. :lol

Forget the MJ numbers, we want Mo!

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031295]Then why doesnt KD take more 3? They are worth 50% more points and nobody is going to block his shot so it doesn't make sense to take midrange shots in favor of 3s.

The fact is that 21% of Curry's shots come from 10 feet out to the 3 pt line. Over 16 seasons that is a huge sample size.[/QUOTE]

He takes less 3's cause he's a better 2pt shooter. Just the opposite of Curry.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15031303]He takes less 3's cause he's a better 2pt shooter. Just the opposite of Curry.[/QUOTE]

That doesn't make sense from a math standpoint. Shooting 48% from midrange isn't as valuable as shooting 34% from 3.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031304]That doesn't make sense from a math standpoint. Shooting 48% from midrange isn't as valuable as shooting 34% from 3.[/QUOTE]

Generally, sure. But there are certain situations where you just want the higher percentage shot, even outside of last second shots where you don't need a 3. A good example was Nets vs Milwaukee series in 21. Joe Harris couldn't hit the broad side of the barn, Kyrie was out... KD was by himself out there and whenever Mil would go on a run KD can back with a flurry of middies to stop the bleeding. It wasn't enough to match the runs, but in situations when the other team is hot and you have a KD who can pull off something like that and save you timeouts... it's incredibly valuable. Curry otoh, would not be able to get those shots off because he isn't 6'11 with a 7'5 wingspan.

I didn't make this post to say KD > Curry btw, just pointing out there's a psychological aspect of basketball that is much more than math(33.3% from 3 = 50% from 2).

The downside of 3s is variance. There are times when you want to take fewer 3s to reduce variance, typically in 4th quarter situations.

[QUOTE=tpols;15031283]A lot of these Lebron stans lost their nut over Paus 18/10 but want to disparage Murray putting up a Michael Jordan line. :lol

Too funny.

And the ultimate irony is Murray did it vs Lebrons Lakers so they had a front row seat. They watched it.[/QUOTE]

"Lakers were so much better than everyone else..."
"Lakers never beat a team as good as _______"

Meanwhile 2025 marked the first year that Yolk won a playoff series against a 50 win team. Not to mention the Heat team they faced in the finals is one of the all time weakest in history. A cindarella team that nobody picked to make it that far.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031311]"Lakers were so much better than everyone else..."
"Lakers never beat a team as good as _______"

Meanwhile 2025 marked the first year that Yolk won a playoff series against a 50 win team. Not to mention the Heat team they faced in the finals is one of the all time weakest in history. A cindarella team that nobody picked to make it that far.[/QUOTE]

You do realize that there were 2 72 game seasons in recent years, right? Not many teams will win 50 out of 72.

That Cinderalla team is the same one that already made the finals in the bubble. I don't think a team gets to be Cinderella twice in 3 years.

[QUOTE=tontoz;15031313]You do realize that there were 2 72 game seasons in recent years, right? Not many teams will win 50 out of 72.

That Cinderalla team is the same one that already made the finals in the bubble. I don't think a team gets to be Cinderella twice in 3 years.[/QUOTE]

Reg Season: 44-38

Conference Rank: 7th

+5500 to win championship at start of playoffs

Finals Odds: DEN -430 / MIA +330


:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;15031317]Reg Season: 44-38

Conference Rank: 7th

+5500 to win championship at start of playoffs

Finals Odds: DEN -430 / MIA +330


:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

:blah


Miami was 5 pts away from making the Finals the previous season.

Has anyone noticed almost everyone who voted for Kobe is infamous for being a stupid poster when it comes to the NBA? :lol

Reggie43 I think is the only person who seems normal who voted for Kobe everyone else is a notorious Kobe stan or idiot

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15030960]Did you seriously just try to equate Kobe's '02 Finals, where they beat up on a scrub team that had literally zero chance of beating them, with Shaq averaging his usual monster 36/12, to Wade's '06 where he dragged the Heat back from the dead virtually singlehandedly averaging 40 over the final 4 games outscoring Shaq by over 20 for the series?

That's one of the wildest takes I have ever read :lol With any context and frankly just by the statline those Finals are genuinely tiers apart[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying it was better. I'm saying it gets overlooked. Even his 2009 performance gets overlooked. Both series he had a better +/- than Wade in 2006. And 2006 was a big controversy regarding how the refs officiated Wade.

In 2009, for example, the Lakers' offense would often ran flat once Kobe sat down for the entirety of the playoffs. Kobe's +/- in the finals was +49, 11th all time amongst players that had a finals with 5 or fewer games.

I think Kobe has a lot of negatives in his finals performances (2004 being an obvious example), but downplaying all of them isn't fair. In addition, having to come back from 0-2 shouldn't be viewed as better than a sweep. If you're the more dominant team, then that's not to your detriment, it's to your credit. I think this idea has become more prevalent as time has gone on. Even I made a thread a while back where I labeled the 3-1 comeback in 2016 as the best chip ever. You shouldn't get brownie points for being down 3-1.

[QUOTE]And imho record aside, Jokic beating the Suns & Lakers in 2023 was as difficult as any pairing of teams Kobe beat on his way to the Finals from 08-10.[/QUOTE]

It's easy to negate the entire sample and focus on a subset, but even then, I disagree. Suns had just added KD so there's issues of chemistry and the flaws obviously played themselves out long term. It's also convenient to leave out the finals where the Lakers faced Boston, twice. And also, the Lakers in 2023 weren't a tremendous threat at all. Yea they beat the defending champs, but I think GS in 2023 is more akin to GS in 2024 than they were in 2022.

Op is a white supremest

[QUOTE=RRR3;15031288]That’s what happens when you’re being guarded by D’Angelo Russell and left open (Darvin Ham stupidly told them to go under screens on Murray). Quit deflecting from the fact that Jokic didn’t need as much help as your hero.[/QUOTE]

Jamal Murray left open? Who tf is leaving him open? Who is ANYONE leaving open right now?

Newsflash genius, nobody gets "left open" anymore unless they're a really subpar shooter. If Murray is getting wide open looks then it's a combination of ball movement, floor spacing and Yolk being a magician.

But that's irrelevant anyway, because Murray doesn't need open looks. He's one of the few players in the league that can actually break you down 1 on 1. Close to top ten. At his absolute best he has the ball on a string and no one can stop him. We've seen it. It's why he's so valuable for Denver down the stretch. When he doesn't show up, Denver loses those games more often than not. At least when it came to that Thunder series they just had a really tough time closing out some of those games.

If Kobe is in the lineup, I'm giving them way more of a chance. And that's not me speculating, it's because we've seen him change the course of a series time and time again for a nearly a whole decade. He's proven. Which is why it's fukking retarded to compare a guy that just won his first title to someone with five fukking rangz. Let the man PROVE he belongs in this conversation first.

It can't just ALWAYS be about stats stats stats. Let alone trying to compare stats across [B]timelines[/B].

[QUOTE=Baller234;15030963]Lol.

So when someone dares to suggest that Kobe is better than you thought he was, it's because there's a secret agenda or bias. But when you guys suggest Kobe is some overrated hack, that's totally irrefutable because you guys just know more than everyone else.

Yolk is an amazing player and he would be great in any era, but you're comparing numbers across different timelines that have no business being compared in the first place. And even if you wanna argue that Yolk is the better offensive player, which is debatable, that still leaves defense. Kobe was elite on both sides of the ball. Yolk on defense is a sorry sack of shit and probably gives up 8-10 points a game due to sheer lack of effort.

Kobe never played in Yolk's era and Yolk never played in Kobe's, so we'll never know what their "numbers" would have been, nor do I care. I care about what they bring to the court as basketball players. Yolk is basically Larry Bird but with zero quickness and zero ability to penetrate. He's GREAT, but that's what he is. A bigger, a slower Larry Bird that is more limited 1 on 1 and doesn't play defense.[/QUOTE]

He doesn't get enough credit for these things. Not only did he dominate the height of the defensive era, but he also did it in an era of any iteration of guards — Vince, Wade, Pierce, AI, Allen, Spree, Houston, TMac, Iso Joe, Reggie, Richardson, Rip, etc. He ran a gauntlet nearly every year and put together a solid 14 prime years.

This doesn't take anything away from Jokic, but none of this is ever mentioned when people discuss Kobe's legacy, but they forget this is a major part of why he was so great.

[QUOTE]Meanwhile what's the worst thing you can say about Kobe. He has a bit of an ego and might take some ill advised shots. Okay fine, other than that he has no weaknesses or flaws in his game. Whatever perceived flaw you wanna harp on doesn't matter because ultimately it didn't matter. He won in spite of it.[/QUOTE]

Overshooting is a flaw and he had it. That being said, the Lakers were perennial contenders nearly every year with him as a starter — a legit threat to win the chip outside of a few. And he went on to go to the finals 3 times, winning 2 if not for a manufactured superteam in Boston in 2008 [I]without[/I] Shaq

If that doesn't spell ridiculous greatness, then idk what does. MJ never won without Scottie. And prime Scottie > prime Gasol. Magic never won without Kareem. Kareem needed Magic and Big O. Granted, none of this (at least in my mind) diminishes from them, but it [I]does[/I] say a lot about Kobe.

Even in 2000 when the series was 2-1 in Indy with an opportunity to tie it 2-2, it was Kobe who took over in the OT when Shaq fouled out. And that was an underwhelming finals overall. Indy ended up winning game 5. Who knows how the series looks if Kobe isn't in game 4 to win it.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15030967]I didn’t make up RAPM, xRAPM, or any similar stats. They are based on lineup data. You seem upset that Kobe had provably less impact than Jokic. Imagine Kobe trying to win a ring with the Nuggets roster in 2023, he would have lost in the first round lol.[/QUOTE]

Against a 42 win team like Minnesota? I mean, I suppose anything could happen, but I'm skeptical. And I'm not sure why the Nuggets' roster was so bad?

Murray put up 26/6/7/2 on 57% TS% in the playoffs. Kobe getting 33/6/5/3 on 65% TS% in the WCF from a teammate can't be all that bad.