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[QUOTE=72-10]Jordan's prime could best be defined as 1988-1992, which inconveniently is evenly divided between the 80s and 90s.[/QUOTE]
no, jordans prime was from the time he was drafted to the time he retired as a bull the second time. i mean, he was the MVP in 98 for goodness sake. now if you to say athlecticly then absolutely he was in his prime in from his rookie season to 93.
[QUOTE=72-10]Pretty much everything you just said is wrong.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
i agree the 00s have prouced some terrible teams to make it to the finals the iverson sixers, and the kidd nets.
What I don't like about this thread is that "the 80s" aren't considered an era. There is an era that is considered the best in basketball history, but it includes most of both decades, such cutoffs range from as far as the drafting of Magic and Bird (1980 season) to Jordan's retirement from the Bulls (1998 season), or Jordan's drafting (1985 season) to his first retirement (1993 season). You could argue that the most competitive years were the late 1980s, 87, 88, 89, but the early 90s are just a step behind it.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]no, jordans prime was from the time he was drafted to the time he retired as a bull the second time. i mean, he was the MVP in 98 for goodness sake. now if you to say athlecticly then absolutely he was in his prime in from his rookie season to 93.[/QUOTE]
Jordan was the best player in the world for nearly his entire career, I'm just saying that he played his best basketball from about 88-92.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]if your talking about the whole decade i would say that shaq early 00s td and kobe would have something to say about that mvps and championships aainst all those other teams. but obviously jordan is in another world.[/QUOTE]
[B]But if Shaq played withought Penny Hardaway-Grant or Bryant and would have had no Stars and Not the Greatest of Supporting Casts as did Barkley, Hakeem, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson, Wilkins etc for Various Years I dont think he would have elavated the level of his teams as these others did (becase these dudes where more All Around with the exception of Ewing and Wilkins although Wilkins was CLUTCH and Ewing a Major Leader, inspirer!). So then = only Shaq would get 1 MVP out of them 2 (Shaq and Bryant), while these others dudes: if Bird-Magic and Jordan where not there = would have won each of them 2-3 or 4 MVPs for their intiire whole NBA Careers :).
Let me remined you that Dominique Wilkins was way more unstoppable than Bryant, better rebounder and way way! way! more Clutch. He played in a tougher era and conference [U]all by himself [/U] pretty much and had major battles with the Bad Boys, Jordan and Bird .:rockon: :confusedshrug: [/B]
[QUOTE=72-10]Jordan's prime could best be defined as 1988-1992, which inconveniently is evenly divided between the 80s and 90s.[/QUOTE]
[B]Jordans Prime was 1986-1993. Look at the Stats:) and Look at both his Phyisicall and Mental Abilities Combined (along experience).[/B]
[B]Post 1993 = Jordan was not as Athletic or Unstoppable (tyring) to Guard
Pre 1986 = Jordan was not as Experienced and Tough Minded.[/B]
[B]Then again...
1-When did he suffer most to Win? 1980s! :) = Better Era, Better Teams, Better Players, No Handchecking, Real Fauls etc.
2-And, When did he have it easiest? 1990s = Celtics were Aged. Lakers did not have a Kareem at his best and Worthy was not in the level of Pippen (he could not make teamatest better). Obviously the Celtics were WAY past their Prime in the 90s and Pistons finally aged with most of them in their 30s and Yes 30s is the age era where you loose Begin to Loose: [U]Speed, Potence, Agility [/U]etc of [U]things needed [/U]for an [COLOR="Blue"]absolutely PHYSICALLY DEPENDING DEFENSIVE TEAM[/COLOR]:)
Jordan`s only Real Competition was Barkley and Hakeem in the early 90s. While in the 80s he had these 2 (Barkley and Hakeem) plus Magic (and all of his Great Supporting Cast and other Older but Still Legends), plus Bird (and all of his Great Supporting Cast and other Older but Still Legends), plus Dominique Wilkins, plus Isiah (and his Bad Boys), plus Drexler, plus Stockton-Malone-Eaton, plus the Cavs, plus the Bucks and the Knicks (the only one in the East that put up real battes in the early 90s).
1980s = Greatest Era in NBA History. Period. End of Discussion:rockon: :confusedshrug:[/B]
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]But if Shaq played withought Penny Hardaway-Grant or Bryant and would have had no Stars and Not the Greatest of Supporting Casts as did Barkley, Hakeem, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson, Wilkins etc for Various Years I dont think he would have elavated the level of his teams as these others did (becase these dudes where more All Around with the exception of Ewing and Wilkins although Wilkins was CLUTCH and Ewing a Major Leader, inspirer!). So then = only Shaq would get 1 MVP out of them 2 (Shaq and Bryant), while these others dudes: if Bird-Magic and Jordan where not there = would have won each of them 2-3 or 4 MVPs for their intiire whole NBA Careers :).
Let me remined you that Dominique Wilkins was way more unstoppable than Bryant, better rebounder and way way! way! more Clutch. He played in a tougher era and conference [U]all by himself [/U] pretty much and had major battles with the Bad Boys, Jordan and Bird .:rockon: :confusedshrug: [/B][/QUOTE]
i really want to respond to this but i dont understand it:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=97 bulls]here we go again. now, if your talking about popularity by your "most fans " statement then its 90s hands down. the 90s had higher ratings. and as far as hofers on teams, if your talking about careers then the [B]97 bulls have at least 4 players that are going to the hall or are in(jordan, pippen rodman, and parrish)[/B] not to mention kukoc might get in based on his accomplishments. but how many of those teams had players playing at a hof level for every year? i mean, was kareem really playing at a hof level in 87 and 88? i believe without looking that he averaged about 15-17 points and 6-7 rebounds as a third option behind worthy and scott. the celtics had 3 hof but remember mchale was a 6th man for 2 of their 3 championships. the pistons probably will have 3 players with hof careers but while they were winning only two. or how about the sixers, i know they had only 2 and i feel that was the best team in the 80s.now, the bulls had three players in the 96-98 teams all palying at a hof level. so to sum it up all those teams you mention only had about 2 players playn at a hof level.[/QUOTE]
LOL. you gotta be kidding me. Parish was 100 years old in '97 and Rodman will not make the HOF. Those Bulls only had 2 HOFers.
The Lakers and Celtics of 80's were more deeper than the Bulls of the 90's. Any one who argues that doesn't know basketball.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]i really want to respond to this but i dont understand it:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
[B]What I say is that in the 80s the Stars were all seen as Good and More Equal because it was More Competitive, Teams Had Better Supporting Casts, There where Rivalries and More Hall of Famers and Great Players co
mingled and played together.[/B]
[B]In the early 90 = Celtics Aged, Lakers Aged and Pistons Aged so it was Jordan-Pippen`s turn but then again Jordan-Pippen had no Real Great Competition as they did in the 80s: Pistons, Sixers, Bucks, Cavs were done:
Post 1990 it was pretty much just the Knicks for the the Bulls as a true competitor.
What I also say is that All those players I mentioned. Barkley, Hakeem, Malone, Stockton, Drexler, Wilkins, Isiah etc in THEIR PRIME would have won more MVPs than Shaq and Bryant because they NOT ONLY DOMINATED THEIR POSITIONS and WHERE ONSTOPPABLE BUT [U]THEY WHERE CLUTCH, THEY WHERE ALL AROUND and they PLAYED WAY TOUGHER!. BACK THEN YOU HAD TO KILL TO WIN BECAUSE IT WAS WAY MORE COMPETITIVE[/U] with the LAKERS-CELTICS AND PISTONS Dominating.
1980s = Best Era in NBA History:bowdown:
Second= Early 90. Composed of 80s Drafted Stars Dominating til 1999
Third Best Era in NBA History is 2000s and 1970s[/B]
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]LOL. you gotta be kidding me. Parish was 100 years old in '97 and Rodman will not make the HOF. Those Bulls only had 2 HOFers.
[B]The Lakers and Celtics of 80's were more deeper than the Bulls of the 90's. Any one who argues that doesn't know basketball.[/QUOTE]
Parish in his PRIME was a 17-20 ppg, 10-11 rpg at 55-60% FG player. He would not be guardable by Wellington or Longley
McHale in his PRIME would be unguardable in the Post. Not even Rodman could Stop his 6'10 (longed 7`2 like arms) Post Moves (more Post Moves than Russell has Championships, plus had Witts). Remember tHey had to put in Kareem or another CENTER to Stop his Moves in the 80s Finals and his Career FG% is 56% 17-19 ppg in 31-33 minutes of play only! (while Bird being the Main Focal Scoring Point not McHale)
And Bird in his PRIME could not be stopped from scoring,. shooting, assisting and make his teams better in Any Era. He even schooled Pippen until he was 35 yeard old and there is Proof in youtube. Both Pippen and Grant could not stop him from getting [U]high 30s and Triple DOuble Figures[/U].
The Celtics in their PRIME would only be beatable by the 80s Lakers Show Time.
Except for 1986 Celtics = The Greatest Team Ever![/B]
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Jordans Prime was 1986-1993. Look at the Stats:) and Look at both his Phyisicall and Mental Abilities Combined (along experience).[/B]
[B]Post 1993 = Jordan was not as Athletic or Unstoppable (tyring) to Guard
Pre 1986 = Jordan was not as Experienced and Tough Minded.[/B]
[B]Then again...
1-When did he suffer most to Win? 1980s! :) = Better Era, Better Teams, Better Players, No Handchecking, Real Fauls etc.
2-And, When did he have it easiest? 1990s = Celtics were Aged. Lakers did not have a Kareem at his best and Worthy was not in the level of Pippen (he could not make teamatest better). Obviously the Celtics were WAY past their Prime in the 90s and Pistons finally aged with most of them in their 30s and Yes 30s is the age era where you loose Begin to Loose: [U]Speed, Potence, Agility [/U]etc of [U]things needed [/U]for an [COLOR="Blue"]absolutely PHYSICALLY DEPENDING DEFENSIVE TEAM[/COLOR]:)
Jordan`s only Real Competition was Barkley and Hakeem in the early 90s. While in the 80s he had these 2 (Barkley and Hakeem) plus Magic (and all of his Great Supporting Cast and other Older but Still Legends), plus Bird (and all of his Great Supporting Cast and other Older but Still Legends), plus Dominique Wilkins, plus Isiah (and his Bad Boys), plus Drexler, plus Stockton-Malone-Eaton, plus the Cavs, plus the Bucks and the Knicks (the only one in the East that put up real battes in the early 90s).
1980s = Greatest Era in NBA History. Period. End of Discussion:rockon: :confusedshrug:[/B][/QUOTE]
once again jordan made it to the ecf without a great team. scottie was not ready yet and neither was grant. when they finally won in 91, the pistons werent old, i think their average age was 30-31 for core guys. and as far as the lakers, magic was the reigning backtoback mvp 89-90 before jordan took it back in 91. worthy had his best scoring season, and even though they didnt have kareem they actually got more out of their threesome of sam perkins and mychal thompson and divac. scott wasnt old neither was green i think their core guys average was 29-30. the bulls just finally came of age. however, they didnt have coop. but i dont think that would have turned a 4-1 series for the bulls into a win for the lakers. and as far as the 90s , hey the bulls were just better. you have no basis to prove otherwise.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]once again jordan made it to the ecf without a great team. scottie was not ready yet and neither was grant. when they finally won in 91, the pistons werent old, i think their average age was 30-31 for core guys. and as far as the lakers, magic was the reigning backtoback mvp 89-90 before jordan took it back in 91. worthy had his best scoring season, and even though they didnt have kareem they actually got more out of their threesome of sam perkins and mychal thompson and divac. scott wasnt old neither was green i think their core guys average was 29-30. the bulls just finally came of age. however, they didnt have coop. but i dont think that would have turned a 4-1 series for the bulls into a win for the lakers. and as far as the 90s , hey the bulls were just better. you have no basis to prove otherwise.[/QUOTE]
[B]Listen dude. I just prooved to you that those 3 playes would be unguardable easily:confusedshrug: by any Bulls Frontline of the 90s. And then again. McHale-Parish and Bird would not only Dominate Offensively but McHale and Parish would dominante Longley/Wellington or Grant/Rodman in the boards plus would also block more shots! than these dudes. If the Bulls had Paxon and Kerr for a 3-Pointer then the Celtics had Ainge and Bird hismelf. Plus they had Dennis DJ, a Clutch Shooter, a strong Defensive 6`5 PG that could Rebound, Play D and make others better. Then they had Maxwell on the beanch a talented on one one Smallforward/Powerfoward type with great speed and skill. You also had coming from the bench, the toughness and experience of Walton, whom could pass like a Guard from is Center spot, Play D and Rebound.
The Bulls would have no Chance, they would have to force to put in a Taller Squad. Scottie would be forced to play PG (this would lessen his Scoring Opportunities! and Jordan would have to do more of them). In the Post they would have to play with anotehr PF along Rodman or Grant (forget the SF Spot) and these two would have major troubles scoring do to lack of talent and guarding Bird-McHale-Parish in their PRIME is only a dream. No contest!
:rolleyes: [/B]
[QUOTE=97 bulls][B]here we go again. now, if your talking about popularity by your "most fans " statement then its 90s hands down. the 90s had higher ratings. [/B]and as far as hofers on teams, if your talking about careers then the 97 bulls have at least 4 players that are going to the hall or are in(jordan, pippen rodman, and parrish) not to mention kukoc might get in based on his accomplishments. but how many of those teams had players playing at a hof level for every year? [B]i mean, was kareem really playing at a hof level in 87 and 88? i believe without looking that he averaged about 15-17 points and 6-7 rebounds as a third option behind worthy and scott. the celtics had 3 hof but remember mchale was a 6th man for 2 of their 3 championships.[/B] the pistons probably will have 3 players with hof careers but while they were winning only two. or how about the sixers, i know they had only 2 and i feel that was the best team in the 80s.now, the bulls had three players in the 96-98 teams all palying at a hof level. so to sum it up all those teams you mention only had about 2 players playn at a hof level.[/QUOTE]
BTW we are not talking about popularity we are talking about quality.
Yes, Kareem was past his prime in '87 and '88 but he was still an NBA All-Star Center. Lets not forget he was NBA Finals MVP in '85 at age 38 and dropped 32 Points in the '87 Finals in game 6. Yes, McHale came off the bench early in his career but so what? He was averaging nearly 20 PPG and shooting 55% from the field as the 6th man. If anything that should tell you how deep those 80's Celtics were.
I mean the Bulls starting Center in '96-'98 was Luc Longley.:oldlol: Longley would of been the '86 Celtics #3 Center behind Parish and Walton.
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Listen dude. I just prooved to you that those 3 playes would be unguardable easily:confusedshrug: by any Bulls Frontline of the 90s. And then again. McHale-Parish and Bird would not only Dominate Offensively but McHale and Parish would dominante Longley/Wellington or Grant/Rodman in the boards plus would also block more shots! than these dudes. If the Bulls had Paxon and Kerr for a 3-Pointer then the Celtics had Ainge and Bird hismelf. Plus they had Dennis DJ, a Clutch Shooter, a strong Defensive 6`5 PG that could Rebound, Play D and make others better. Then they had Maxwell on the beanch a talented on one one Smallforward/Powerfoward type with great speed and skill. You also had coming from the bench, the toughness and experience of Walton, whom could pass like a Guard from is Center spot, Play D and Rebound.
The Bulls would have no Chance, they would have to force to put in a Taller Squad. Scottie would be forced to play PG (this would lessen his Scoring Opportunities! and Jordan would have to do more of them). In the Post they would have to play with anotehr PF along Rodman or Grant (forget the SF Spot) and these two would have major troubles scoring do to lack of talent and guarding Bird-McHale-Parish in their PRIME is only a dream. No contest!
:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
Cedric Maxwell never came off the bench when he was with the Celtics, he was always the starter until he suffered a injury during the '85 season he was the guy traded for Bill Walton so they never played together. McHale was the guy off the bench and 6th man of the year in '84 and '85. The '84 Celtics starting lineup was
G Dennis Johnson
G Gerald Henderson
F Larry Bird
F Cedric Maxwell
C Robert Parish
'85 Celtics
G Dennis Johnson
G Danny Ainge
F Larry Bird
F Cedric Maxwell
C Robert Parish
I'm not sure where Dennis Rodman would have had problems since he always played very well against the Celtics and those series were when he was a young player. Pippen would have never played point guard that's inaccurate to suggest that and he was a superb defensive player who would have locked down either Johnson or Ainge.
[QUOTE=nycelt84]Cedric Maxwell never came off the bench when he was with the Celtics, he was always the starter until he suffered a injury during the '85 season he was the guy traded for Bill Walton so they never played together. McHale was the guy off the bench and 6th man of the year in '84 and '85. The '84 Celtics starting lineup was
G Dennis Johnson
G Gerald Henderson
F Larry Bird
F Cedric Maxwell
C Robert Parish
'85 Celtics
G Dennis Johnson
G Danny Ainge
F Larry Bird
F Cedric Maxwell
C Robert Parish
I'm not sure where Dennis Rodman would have had problems since he always played very well against the Celtics and those series were when he was a young player. Pippen would have never played point guard that's inaccurate to suggest that and he was a superb defensive player who would have locked down either Johnson or Ainge.[/QUOTE]
Just look at the Bulls Centers. '86 Celtics would destroy the Bulls inside.
Oh, I have little doubt that the '86 Celtics would beat the Bulls.
[QUOTE=miles berg]Oh, I have little doubt that the '86 Celtics would beat the Bulls.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I have NO doubt that the '86 Celtics would beat the Bulls.
The 1996 Bulls are more athletic, better defensively on the perimeter with Jordan, Harper, Pippen . Rodman could provide more than capable interior defense and chip in points too. The willowy Kukoc and Kerr both can knock down open Js. The 1986 Celtics with Bird at his peak then are the epitome of toughness. McHale, Parish with a healthy Bill Walton who won Sixth Man of The Year that season as a triumvirate is an overwhelming front line. Dennis Johnson was still an elite defender with the streaky Ainge as his running mate. Sichting and Wedman are as reliable as the Bulls' trio of ivory snipers though Wedman IMO is much better than Buechler any day. The series would probably be the classic OK Corral shootout between Jordan and Bird. Jordan could score on DJ though he will have to work for them to some degree. Same goes with Bird with Pippen covering him though Larry Legend's deep reserves of will and heart are well chronicled. I'd give Bird the edge in that matchup even though Pip was a stellar defender. Would Rodman and company have slowed down McHale and Parish in the post? No unless the Worm could get into McHale's head. Parish would outplay Longley and Wennington... Heck, the then resurrected Big Redhead would outplay Longley and Wennington if he was a starter. If the 1996 Bulls get out in transition, the slower Celtics would be at a disadvantage. Half court? The mighty Celtic frontcourt would feast where they will pound it inside. Bird can score on the post too along with ruggedly hitting the glass for rebounds. It is THE factor that would decide the series. Offensive and defensive rebounding edge to the Celtics EVEN with the electric Rodman on the floor. You can't run when you constantly have to pull the ball from the basket then have to inbound it. Home floor factor? Not even close. I'd go with Boston Garden with its cramped visitor locker rooms, rats in the showers, the inside heat on the floor, the rabid fans that could make Attila's Huns look like a Sunday church group are intimidating. Not too mention the false fire alarms, crank phone calls during off days between games in that lovely city. Winner of this fantasy series? [B]I call the Celtics in six.[/B]
well game 7 of the 1984 finals is on espn classic right now:D
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Just look at the Bulls Centers. '86 Celtics would destroy the Bulls inside.[/QUOTE]
The Bulls get a lack of criticism for their centers but with those centers they still managed to beat Patrick Ewing, Shaquille O'Neal and Alonzo Mourning. All 3 of those guys are better than Parish and better than Walton in '86. Keep in mind he only averaged 7.6 points per game. The '97 Bulls were just as good as the '96 if not better. The only reason they didn't win 70 was because of Rodman's suspension for kicking the photographer and the '97 team had Brian Williams coming off the bench and Williams was a very capable player.
[QUOTE=nycelt84][B]The Bulls get a lack of criticism for their centers but with those centers they still managed to beat Patrick Ewing, Shaquille O'Neal and Alonzo Mourning.[/B] All 3 of those guys are better than Parish and better than Walton in '86. Keep in mind he only averaged 7.6 points per game. The '97 Bulls were just as good as the '96 if not better. The only reason they didn't win 70 was because of Rodman's suspension for kicking the photographer and the '97 team had Brian Williams coming off the bench and Williams was a very capable player.[/QUOTE]
The Bulls beat Ewing, O'Neal, and Mourning not the Bulls centers.
The '86 Celtics had the greatest front court in NBA History. They would destroy the Bulls up front. The Celtics are the better team from top to bottom.
[I]"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."[/I]
- Dennis Rodman
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]The Bulls beat Ewing, O'Neal, and Mourning not the Bulls centers.
The '86 Celtics had the greatest front court in NBA History. They would destroy the Bulls up front. The Celtics are the better team from top to bottom.
[I]"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."[/I]
- Dennis Rodman[/QUOTE]
Pippen and Rodman were the starting forwards for those Bulls teams. Bird and McHale are better but there's no way they are destroying Pippen and Rodman. Rodman always did very well against Bird and McHale in the 80's and he was better when he was the Bulls. The Bulls centers held their own against Ewing, O'Neal and Mourning. Robert Parish is not a top 10 center and Bill Walton only averaged 7.6 points per game in '86. Phil Jackson is a better coach than K.C. Jones and Tex Winter is better than Jimmy Rodgers and Chris Ford.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]The Bulls beat Ewing, O'Neal, and Mourning not the Bulls centers.
The '86 Celtics had the greatest front court in NBA History. They would destroy the Bulls up front. The Celtics are the better team from top to bottom.
[I]"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."[/I]
- Dennis Rodman[/QUOTE]
When did Rodman say that?
[QUOTE=nycelt84]Pippen and Rodman were the starting forwards for those Bulls teams. Bird and McHale are better but there's no way they are destroying Pippen and Rodman. Rodman always did very well against Bird and McHale in the 80's and he was better when he was the Bulls. The Bulls centers held their own against Ewing, O'Neal and Mourning. Robert Parish is not a top 10 center and Bill Walton only averaged 7.6 points per game in '86. Phil Jackson is a better coach than K.C. Jones and Tex Winter is better than Jimmy Rodgers and Chris Ford.[/QUOTE]
Actually Bird was destroying Pippen in the early 90's when he was an old man and had back problems. Nobody stops a prime Larry Bird. And Rodman would not be able to guard McHale in the post. McHale is just to long for him.
Walton averaged 7.6 PPG? Yes, but the guy did everything on the court. He played Defense, blocked shots, and was a great passer. He did win 6th man of the year in 1986. Don't let the stats fool you.
Phil Jackson is a better coach than K.C. Jones but Jackson is also a beter coach than Doc Rivers and how did that turn out?
The Celtics were better than the Bulls at every position except SG.
Pippen reached his prime in the mid 90's not the early 90's he was a much better player as the decade went on. Old man with back problems or not Larry Bird was always very good. Rodman did very well against both McHale and Bird both in the '87 and '88 Eastern Conference Finals and that was his rookie year and 2nd year.
[QUOTE=miles berg]Please, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and Amare Stoudemire would all drop 35+ on a prime Barkley, right now. No way in hell he could guard those guys. Everyone wants to live in the past but the guys today are better than any era of NBA players ever and the NBA today is the best it has been since '93. It took a decade to get over expansion and salary caps and all the free agency and stuff but todays NBA is loaded with some of the greatest players to ever play in this league.[/QUOTE]
[B]Excuse me dude why is it that Barkley and Jordan always complain about how untalented, soft and unwitty minded are the players of today compred to the 90s and 80s?. Jordan has even claimed at an interview that thee "new Stars are un Unwearthy of the Salaries the get. Me Bird, Magic, Charles, Hakeem we Earned What We Got, We Had A Game that Could Back It Up!.
These soft PFs would not have survived an era with handchecking (had to be way more skilled to go by your opponent or post up), real fauls and, no 3 second rule in the paint, where you would get punished with no remorse etc. Barkley has even claimed once that he just likes to watch Shaq and Jordan play, the league is so non-agressive.
Charles obviously has some good compliments about Duncan and Garnett because they remined him of Kevin McHale (his favorite player ever because he had beutiful moves at 6`10 and 7`2 ft! long arm range), which by the way was way harder to Guard than these untalented overrated 6`11 fts I see today.
Its as simple as this dummy[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=duncati01[/url]
[B][SIZE="4"]Barkley[/SIZE] vs Duncan
[B]Barkley at Ages 34-36 : Past His Game Prime, Past His Physical Prime, Major Back and Knee Inuries, Overweight over 280 lbs: not even close to the Speed, Potence and Leaping Ability he had before)
Duncan at Ages 22-24: Perfectly Healthy in his Physical Prime[/B]
[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Blue"]Barkley:[/COLOR] [/SIZE]
[COLOR="Blue"]MPG: 34.5 (Playing Lesser)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]PPG: 19.43 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]FG%: 47.2%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]RPG 13.43 [/COLOR]
ASPG: 2.71
[COLOR="Blue"]SPG: 2.1 [/COLOR]
BPG: 0.57 [COLOR="Blue"]
3-Point FG%: 25%[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]Duncan:[/COLOR]
MPG: 38.5 (Playing Longer)
PPG: 16.0
RPG: 10.0
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]ASPG: 4.0[/COLOR]
SPG: 0.29
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]BPG: 1.86 [/COLOR]
3-Point FG%: 0%
:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: [/B]
[B]Charles was not Guardable in his Prime. He was TOO QUICK, TOO GOOD OF A BALL HANDLER AND 1 ON 1 DRIVER, TOO STRONG AND COULD LEAP 39 INCHES OF THE GROUND AT OVER 260 LBS. Ask anyone who saw him play from 1985 to 1995. Karl Malone only guarded him in the All Star Matches for Fun in Real Games all the teams had to put in a faster Small Forward that could tire him and was stocky enough to Guard a PF for half of the time and then the other half, put some 6`10, 6`11 Forward-Center type "ala" Ortis Thorpe, Chris Gatling etc to stop him from getting in the paint which he eventually would do: do to his inmense Speed, Strength, Will, Intimidation and 1 on 1 Talent. Add to the fact he could Start Fast Freaks, Fill in Lanes and be A Great Assiter[/B]
[B]Charles Barkley = Goat PF :confusedshrug:[/B]
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Just look at the Bulls Centers. '86 Celtics would destroy the Bulls inside.[/QUOTE]
[B]These kids don`t understand what a 20 year old to 32 year old "PRIME": PARISH, BIRD AND McHALE would do to the Bulls frontline. Bulls frontline would Get [U]OWNED OFFENSIVELY AND DEFENSIVELY[/U] :hammerhead. The only talent tall enough they had in the Frontline was Toni, whom would probaly add some points but COULD NOT GUARDg: McHale or Bird in their Primes). DJ was an underrated Great lead PG with vision (more than Jordan and Pippen), rebounding skills, strong on Defense and was very clutch shoooter. This guy would own Paxon or Ker at the PG spot.
Pippen would definetly have to play PG because the Celtics would have an enormous height and weight advantage in the Front Line with high a Scoring Efficiency up there in the 60% FG. They would also have Rebounding and Blocking Shot Abilities impossed on the Bulls. Pippen would not take part so much in the Offense from the PG Position, leaving Jordan again like in the 80s for excesive work to score. And as I said Toni would be the second leading scorer because Rodman and Grant are [U]UNTALENTED NON SCORING THREATS in the Forwards Positions [/U]= So this would leave Bulls with a [U]WEAKER DEFENSE in the Front Line[/U].
You then had Bird and Ainge for clutch shooting and 3s (Siestning and some others with high Efficency Spot Shooting). Walton would somee up for some of the time to play along Parish and McHale in the front line leaving Bird as a SG (Their Famous THE TALL LINE UP). This would add another Rebounder and Shot Blocker but with Great Passing Skills that could dish to Bird/Ainge for the outside shot. Pick and Rolls to create or just combinate with McHale.
These kids are dreaming:hammerhead: :violin: [/B]
so true
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Listen dude. I just prooved to you that those 3 playes would be unguardable easily:confusedshrug: by any Bulls Frontline of the 90s. And then again. McHale-Parish and Bird would not only Dominate Offensively but McHale and Parish would dominante Longley/Wellington or Grant/Rodman in the boards plus would also block more shots! than these dudes. If the Bulls had Paxon and Kerr for a 3-Pointer then the Celtics had Ainge and Bird hismelf. Plus they had Dennis DJ, a Clutch Shooter, a strong Defensive 6`5 PG that could Rebound, Play D and make others better. Then they had Maxwell on the beanch a talented on one one Smallforward/Powerfoward type with great speed and skill. You also had coming from the bench, the toughness and experience of Walton, whom could pass like a Guard from is Center spot, Play D and Rebound.
The Bulls would have no Chance, they would have to force to put in a Taller Squad. Scottie would be forced to play PG (this would lessen his Scoring Opportunities! and Jordan would have to do more of them). In the Post they would have to play with anotehr PF along Rodman or Grant (forget the SF Spot) and these two would have major troubles scoring do to lack of talent and guarding Bird-McHale-Parish in their PRIME is only a dream. No contest!
:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
you didnt prove a damn thing all you did is type it. the bulls dont need any of their centers to out play any of their counterparts. all they had to do is hit the open j if their man helped on a man penetrating. and longley and wennington were excellent jumpshooters. not to mention brian williams with his quickness could score in the post. he averaged 17 and 9 as a clipper playing against some of the best centers ever. the bulls centers were just fine. all that other stuff you typed is nonsense.
[QUOTE=nycelt84]Pippen reached his prime in the mid 90's not the early 90's he was a much better player as the decade went on. Old man with back problems or not Larry Bird was always very good. Rodman did very well against both McHale and Bird both in the '87 and '88 Eastern Conference Finals and that was his rookie year and 2nd year.[/QUOTE]
1987-88 regular season Larry Bird vs Detriot:
[B]12-4-87[/B]. 27 Points. 9 Rebounds. 59 FG%
[B]1-13-88[/B]. 28 Points. 7 Rebounds. 13 Assist. 41 FG%
[B]1-29-88[/B] 25 Points. 11 Rebounds. 8 Assist. 61 FG%
[B]2-28-88[/B] 26 Points. 9 Rebounds. 9 Assist. 46 FG%
[B]4-01-88[/B] 32 Points. 11 Rebounds. 5 assist. 50 FG%
[B]4-19-88[/B] 22 Points. 5 Rebounds. 9 Assist. 53 FG%
1987-88 regular season Kevin McHale vs Detroit:
[B]12-4-87[/B]. 20 Points. 9 Rebounds. 67 FG%
[B]1-13-88[/B]. 31 Points. 7 Rebounds. 69 FG%
[B]1-29-88[/B]. 20 Points. 3 Rebounds. 52% FG
[B]2-28-88[/B]. 33 Points. 11 Rebounds. 63 FG%
[B]4-01-88[/B]. 29 Points. 11 Rebounds. 63 FG%
[B]4-19-88[/B]. 33 Points. 5 Rebounds. 87 FG%
McHale and Bird dominated Detroit and Rodman. NO QUESTION!!!!
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Actually Bird was destroying Pippen in the early 90's when he was an old man and had back problems. Nobody stops a prime Larry Bird. And Rodman would not be able to guard McHale in the post. McHale is just to long for him.
Walton averaged 7.6 PPG? Yes, but the guy did everything on the court. He played Defense, blocked shots, and was a great passer. He did win 6th man of the year in 1986. Don't let the stats fool you.
Phil Jackson is a better coach than K.C. Jones but Jackson is also a beter coach than Doc Rivers and how did that turn out?
The Celtics were better than the Bulls at every position except SG.[/QUOTE]
i really dont ever remember bird an old injured bird owning pippen. PROVE IT
and as far as match ups it depends on how you look at it. as far as scoring the celtics were better in a faster pace league throw about 4 ppgs to the bulls players along with great defense and an extra board or 2 and then compare stats.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]1987-88 regular season Larry Bird vs Detriot:
[B]12-4-87[/B]. 27 Points. 9 Rebounds. 59 FG%
[B]1-13-88[/B]. 28 Points. 7 Rebounds. 13 Assist. 41 FG%
[B]1-29-88[/B] 25 Points. 11 Rebounds. 8 Assist. 61 FG%
[B]2-28-88[/B] 26 Points. 9 Rebounds. 9 Assist. 46 FG%
[B]4-01-88[/B] 32 Points. 11 Rebounds. 5 assist. 50 FG%
[B]4-19-88[/B] 22 Points. 5 Rebounds. 9 Assist. 53 FG%
1987-88 regular season Kevin McHale vs Detroit:
[B]12-4-87[/B]. 20 Points. 9 Rebounds. 67 FG%
[B]1-13-88[/B]. 31 Points. 7 Rebounds. 69 FG%
[B]1-29-88[/B]. 20 Points. 3 Rebounds. 52% FG
[B]2-28-88[/B]. 33 Points. 11 Rebounds. 63 FG%
[B]4-01-88[/B]. 29 Points. 11 Rebounds. 63 FG%
[B]4-19-88[/B]. 33 Points. 5 Rebounds. 87 FG%
McHale and Bird dominated Detroit and Rodman. NO QUESTION!!!![/QUOTE]
[B]Kevin Mchale`s Post Up Game Scoring 27.7 PPG at a FG % of 66.8%!!! HAHAHAHA :bowdown: :hammerhead: against the Bad Boys PRIME Front Line(same Team that Schooled the Bulls from 1984 to 1990).
Bird as always comming up with Triple Double like Numbers:bowdown:
26.7 PPG at a 51.7% FG%, 8.7 RPG and 8.8 ASPG
And this was Bird and McHale [U]PAST Their Physicall Prime [/U]which was 1980 to 1986.
THERE IS NO WAY the BULLS COULD STOP A PRIME 1986 CELTICS:
CENTERS: PARISH-WALTON
FORWARDs: McHALE-BIRD-MAXWELL
GUARDS: BIRD (could play SG)-DJ AND AINGE[/B]
[B]Just Imagine if The Celtics would Put in their Big Line UP with:
C: PARISH
C-F: WALTON
PF: McHALE
SG/SF: BIRD
PG: DJ
Only an Idiot Would Think, The Bulls had A Chance![/B]
[QUOTE=97 bulls]i really dont ever remember bird an old injured bird owning pippen. PROVE IT
and as far as match ups it depends on how you look at it. [B]as far as scoring the celtics were better in a faster pace league [/B]throw about 4 ppgs to the bulls players along with great defense and an extra board or 2 and then compare stats.[/QUOTE]
LOL R U KIDDING ME?? The Celtics were the greatest Half Court Team in NBA History. They might have been better in a slow paced league like the mid 90's.
34 YEAR OLD LARRY BIRD WITH NO BACK vs Scottie Pippen
1990-91 regular season:
11-06-90. 24 Points. 11 Rebounds.
11-09-90. 23 Points. 8 Rebounds. 5 assist.
2-26-91. 12 points. 7 rebounds. 5 assist
3-31-91. 34 Points. 15 Rebounds. 8 assist
Can you imagine how bad Bird would of tourched Pippen in his prime?????
[QUOTE=97 bulls]i really dont ever remember bird an old injured bird owning pippen. PROVE IT
and as far as match ups it depends on how you look at it. as far as scoring the celtics were better in a faster pace league throw about 4 ppgs to the bulls players along with great defense and an extra board or 2 and then compare stats.[/QUOTE]
[B]Wrong the Celtics loved the Frontline-Post Up-Slow Game and Ruled The NBA with their Front-Line Witty Game. That is The Way they faced the Lakers (which was the ONLY Succesfull team playing A Fast Tempo Game, that is why they where called ShowTime because people loved their Winning at that Style). The Rest of the NBA Could Not Win With That Style, They Could Only Dream of Playing a Fast Paced Style and Beating Eastern Teams, Only the Lakers Could!
Plus in 1986 Celtics could Play both Styles and they Swept the Rockets with a HAKEEM-SAMSON (FRONTLINE!). The Team that Beat the 1986 Lakers with A PRIME MAGIC, A PRIME WORTHY and KAREEM still Scoring over 22-26 PPG with a FG% of 52-56% plus All The Crew: GREEN, SCOTT, COOPER etc[/B]
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]These kids don`t understand what a 20 year old to 32 year old "PRIME": PARISH, BIRD AND McHALE would do to the Bulls frontline. Bulls frontline would Get [U]OWNED OFFENSIVELY AND DEFENSIVELY[/U] :hammerhead. The only talent tall enough they had in the Frontline was Toni, whom would probaly add some points but COULD NOT GUARDg: McHale or Bird in their Primes). DJ was an underrated Great lead PG with vision (more than Jordan and Pippen), rebounding skills, strong on Defense and was very clutch shoooter. This guy would own Paxon or Ker at the PG spot.
Pippen would definetly have to play PG because the Celtics would have an enormous height and weight advantage in the Front Line with high a Scoring Efficiency up there in the 60% FG. They would also have Rebounding and Blocking Shot Abilities impossed on the Bulls. Pippen would not take part so much in the Offense from the PG Position, leaving Jordan again like in the 80s for excesive work to score. And as I said Toni would be the second leading scorer because Rodman and Grant are [U]UNTALENTED NON SCORING THREATS in the Forwards Positions [/U]= So this would leave Bulls with a [U]WEAKER DEFENSE in the Front Line[/U].
You then had Bird and Ainge for clutch shooting and 3s (Siestning and some others with high Efficency Spot Shooting). Walton would somee up for some of the time to play along Parish and McHale in the front line leaving Bird as a SG (Their Famous THE TALL LINE UP). This would add another Rebounder and Shot Blocker but with Great Passing Skills that could dish to Bird/Ainge for the outside shot. Pick and Rolls to create or just combinate with McHale.
These kids are dreaming:hammerhead: :violin: [/B][/QUOTE]
first of all im 34 and remember the 80s.you on the other hand on several occasions have referred to dennis johnon as the pg. let me help you ainge was the pg dj was the sg. the bulls also had a big line up. their staring guards were 6'6 taller than ainge and johnson not to mention harper was a pretty good basketball player himself.
second you you and 87 lakers obviously dont know the Xs and Os of basketball or never played it, and if you did you probably arent any good because you would know that you had to keep a man on rodman because of his offensive rebounding capability. not to mention by ron harpers own addmitsion he could still have been a 20ppg scorer but played his role on the bulls team defending the other teams pg and he did a hell of a job defending players like payton, stockton, and penny hardaway.i dont see him having a problem with ainge. not to mention the bulls could go even bigger if they opted to play kukoc at sf move pippen to pg and put williams at center. and why would pippen not be able to score from the pg position?
pippen 6'7 ainge 6'5
jordan 6'6 johnson 6'5
kukoc 6'11 bird 6'8
rodman 6'8 mchale 6'10
williams 6'11 parrish 7'0
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]The 1996 Bulls are more athletic, better defensively on the perimeter with Jordan, Harper, Pippen . Rodman could provide more than capable interior defense and chip in points too. The willowy Kukoc and Kerr both can knock down open Js. The 1986 Celtics with Bird at his peak then are the epitome of toughness. McHale, Parish with a healthy Bill Walton who won Sixth Man of The Year that season as a triumvirate is an overwhelming front line. Dennis Johnson was still an elite defender with the streaky Ainge as his running mate. Sichting and Wedman are as reliable as the Bulls' trio of ivory snipers though Wedman IMO is much better than Buechler any day. The series would probably be the classic OK Corral shootout between Jordan and Bird. Jordan could score on DJ though he will have to work for them to some degree. Same goes with Bird with Pippen covering him though Larry Legend's deep reserves of will and heart are well chronicled. I'd give Bird the edge in that matchup even though Pip was a stellar defender. Would Rodman and company have slowed down McHale and Parish in the post? No unless the Worm could get into McHale's head. Parish would outplay Longley and Wennington... Heck, the then resurrected Big Redhead would outplay Longley and Wennington if he was a starter. If the 1996 Bulls get out in transition, the slower Celtics would be at a disadvantage. Half court? The mighty Celtic frontcourt would feast where they will pound it inside. Bird can score on the post too along with ruggedly hitting the glass for rebounds. It is THE factor that would decide the series. Offensive and defensive rebounding edge to the Celtics EVEN with the electric Rodman on the floor. You can't run when you constantly have to pull the ball from the basket then have to inbound it. Home floor factor? Not even close. I'd go with Boston Garden with its cramped visitor locker rooms, rats in the showers, the inside heat on the floor, the rabid fans that could make Attila's Huns look like a Sunday church group are intimidating. Not too mention the false fire alarms, crank phone calls during off days between games in that lovely city. Winner of this fantasy series? [B]I call the Celtics in six.[/B][/QUOTE]
..
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Wrong the Celtics loved the Frontline-Post Up-Slow Game and Ruled The NBA with their Front-Line Witty Game. That is The Way they faced the Lakers (which was the ONLY Succesfull team playing A Fast Tempo Game, that is why they where called ShowTime because people loved their Winning at that Style). The Rest of the NBA Could Not Win With That Style, They Could Only Dream of Playing a Fast Paced Style and Beating Eastern Teams, Only the Lakers Could!
Plus in 1986 Celtics could Play both Styles and they Swept the Rockets with a HAKEEM-SAMSON (FRONTLINE!). The Team that Beat the 1986 Lakers with A PRIME MAGIC, A PRIME WORTHY and KAREEM still Scoring over 22-26 PPG with a FG% of 52-56% plus All The Crew: GREEN, SCOTT, COOPER etc[/B][/QUOTE]
all still in a faster paced league
[QUOTE=97 bulls]all still in a faster paced league[/QUOTE]
And if the '86 Celtics played in the mid 90's they would have won even more games because of...
A. Diluted NBA. weaker competition.
B. The Celtics were the greatest Half Court team in NBA history and with a slower paced mid 90's NBA they would have used it to their advantage.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]And if the '86 Celtics played in the mid 90's they would have won even more games because of...
A. Diluted NBA. weaker competition.
B. The Celtics were the greatest Half Court team in NBA history and with a slower paced mid 90's NBA they would have used it to their advantage.[/QUOTE]
does someone pay you to say that? ive already dispelled the notion that the league wasnt waterd down. but, like i said you believe what you want to believe. not the truth. and the bulls were just as good a half court team if not better.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]does someone pay you to say that? ive already dispelled the notion that the league wasnt waterd down. but, like i said you believe what you want to believe. not the truth. and the bulls were just as good a half court team if not better.[/QUOTE]
The NBA was watered down in 1996 no question. And the Celtics were a better Half Court team than the Bulls no question.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]first of all im 34 and remember the 80s.you on the other hand on several occasions have referred to dennis johnon as the pg. let me help you ainge was the pg dj was the sg. the bulls also had a big line up. their staring guards were 6'6 taller than ainge and johnson not to mention harper was a pretty good basketball player himself.
second you you and 87 lakers obviously dont know the Xs and Os of basketball or never played it, and if you did you probably arent any good because you would know that you had to keep a man on rodman because of his offensive rebounding capability. not to mention by ron harpers own addmitsion he could still have been a 20ppg scorer but played his role on the bulls team defending the other teams pg and he did a hell of a job defending players like payton, stockton, and penny hardaway.i dont see him having a problem with ainge. not to mention the bulls could go even bigger if they opted to play kukoc at sf move pippen to pg and put williams at center. and why would pippen not be able to score from the pg position?
pippen 6'7 ainge 6'5
jordan 6'6 johnson 6'5
kukoc 6'11 bird 6'8
rodman 6'8 mchale 6'10
williams 6'11 parrish 7'0[/QUOTE]
[B]Let me give notice to you that Celtics played with a Combo Guard-Line Up
Ainge was a Better Shooter than DJ but Could Pass with PG Abbilities too
DJ was a Pure PG, Smarter, Defensive Player and was a Clutch Shooter. Could Rebound Asoume at 6`5 too.
Celtics would use their [U]Big Line Up[/U]:) to Kill the Bulls, Adding in Walton along Parish and McHale in the Frontline. So you have the following:
In their Prime:[/B]
[B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]C: PARISH (17-20 ppg, 55-60%FG, 9-11 RPG) [/COLOR]v.s [COLOR="Red"]C: WILLIAMS (LONGLEY,WELL)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]CHIEF Wins Easy!:rolleyes: [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]C-F: WALTON[/COLOR] ([U]Bulls Would have to Put in Another Center[/U] to Hold him from Rebounding and Scoring, And he Could Also Pass)
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Walton would Win That Roll Player! Plus Could Rebound, Block Shots, Had Clutch Game and from that Spot Could CREATE ASSITS :) [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]PF: McHALE 6`10 (18-26 PPG, 60.4%Fg%, 8-9 RPG)[/COLOR] vs PF: RODMAN/GRANT
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]McHale Not Only Wins, Schools!!!. Id Suggest The Bulls Put in CENTER to Guard McHales 6`10 ft Post Play and his 7`2ft Arm Lenght Post :rolleyes: [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]SG: BIRD 6`9 ft (3-Point Specialist, 29 PPG, 10 RPG, 6-8 ASPG)[/COLOR] vs [COLOR="Red"]KUKOC/PIPPEN[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Bird already Schooled Pippen a Better Defender than Kukoc at Age 33-35:rolleyes: [U]PAST HIS PHYSICAL PIME and AFTER HIS BACK INJURY[/U]. Kukoc would Guard him Well in the Post due to Height but he [U]Would Not Outrebound Him, Would Not Stop him from Scoring from A Far and Would Definetly Not Sop him from Getting PG ASSIT TYPE NUMBERS and Making His Team Better[/U]. Also If You have a 1979 to 1986 Bird. They you had a Much Faster Bird:oldlol:[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]PG: DJ (D Stopper, Assiter, Rebounder, Clutch Shooter)[/COLOR] vs [COLOR="Red"]Jordan (SG/PG)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]This is the only SPOT where the Bulls would win. But Jordan would be Slowed Down but DJs Witty Game and would have to Work if DJ Posted Him Up. DJ had a Fat Ass and was Great Rebounder for 6`5 ft. Jordan would win the 1 on 1 Game Obviously but he would Suffer in the Slow Front-Court Game with DJ. Then the Celtics would just Bring in DANNY AINGE to Make Jordan Run More and Danny would Get his Shots Off due to the Pick and Rolls designed by PARSIH, WALTON, McHALE and BIRD.[/COLOR]
[U][COLOR="Navy"]So here it is. If THE CELTICS BRING IN THEIR "TALL TEAM" (As They Did v.s The 1986 Rockets which had HAKEEM and SAMSON: Whom Beat a PRIME MAGIC, WORTHY, SCOTT, GREEN and KAREEM still scoring 23-26 PPG at a 53 TO 56% FG)...HOW CAN THE BULLS WIN? :rolleyes: :hammerhead:[/COLOR] [/U]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]CELTICS = DOMINATE 4 SPOTS[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]BULLS= DOMINATE 1 SPOT[/COLOR][/B]
[B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]1986 CELTICS and Their BIG LINE UP [/COLOR]that Could Play [U]BOTH FAST AND SLOW TEMPO[/U] would [COLOR="DarkGreen"]OWN [/COLOR]the [COLOR="Red"]1996 BULLS[/COLOR]...EASY:confusedshrug: [/B]