Phil Jackson: Rodman is the greatest athlete I've ever coached

[QUOTE=Loki]Oh, is that all? :oldlol:

Funny how no one has [b]ever[/b] mentioned Rodman when discussing the most athletic players in history prior to this comment by Jackson, huh? :oldlol:

I love how you won't define athleticism, by the way. If we're going by what we see with our eyes, Jordan (and Kobe, and Pippen, and Shaq of players PJax has coached) are all worlds more athletic than Rodman.[/QUOTE]


Don't have the quote in writing ,but Chuck Daly did say that Rodman had "world class speed".


Like the guys who attacked Doc Rivers credibility it's ridiculous when guys on a message board feel as if they can casually dismiss the opinion of a nine time NBA Champion Coach.:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]Average basketball IQ, is an understatement if you ask me. Rodman was a genius when it came to playing basketball, he just knew the game. His rebounding was more the desire to go and get the ball over anything else, but to say that his basketball IQ was average.....I just think you're wrong.[/QUOTE]
If he's a genius at all, I'd say he's a genius at knowing his role on the court. He knew that he can only do one thing good and that's rebounding and defense so that's what he does. If you want to call that genius then we have very different definition of bball IQ. And mind you average NBA player has much higher bball IQ than common ballers so it's not really an insult to call his bball IQ average. It's just not in the class of MJ, bird, pippen and others.

[QUOTE]There's a difference between saying that someone is a great athlete and saying that he's a better overall athlete than 3 of the top 10 athletes who have ever played (MJ/Shaq/Kobe). I believe Rodman is a great athlete, no question. I don't believe he's on their level, however, much less above it.

As for your other points, well, I've seen Jordan outrun Rodman while dribbling on breaks, so I'm not sold that he's as fast as MJ. And even if he was equal in end-to-end speed, what about lateral quickness/acceleration/leaping/body control/overall coordination.

I just don't see it. When you think of the elite athletes in history, you don't think of Dennis Rodman, despite his physical versatility (which never really happened at the same time -- i.e., he generally didn't guard PF/C's and SG/SF's during the same years -- but is impressive nonetheless).[/QUOTE]

Its true that Rodman doesnt come up when people think of the best athletes...but Jeff Trepagnier doesnt either. Nor does Marcus Haislip. MJ, Shaq, and Kobe will get more mentions because they are MJ Shaq and Kobe. Not to say they dont deserve them.....but greatness and star status will get some guys mentions beyond those of equal athletes who arent as good as players.


And.....im not convinced Kobe is top 10...I mean really....Jordan, Lebron, James white, Shaq, Drexler, Vince carter, Kemp, Wilt, David Thompson, nate robinson, pre injury Tmac, young Eddie Jones, Dwight Howard, and even guys like Larry Nance, and Gerald Wallace may be better or at least arguably so as pure athletes. Im not sure Kobe is a more athletic player than Andre Iguodala.....or Harold Minor(even aside from his dunks...that guy was quick as hell and built like a tank).

Think Kobe is stronger or a better leaper than Darvin Ham was? I dont think Kobe gets up like Baron Davis in his youth nor do I think hes faster. Steve Francis had more bounce than Kobe and was strong. Not as quick though. Is Kobe really THAT much more athletic than Chris webber in his youth? You think Kobe can go get a lob that say....Rodney Carney or Gerald Green cant? Is Kobe faster than Iverson in his youth? Have the Hops? Hes stronger...but I see no reason to call him more coordinated.

I dont think Kobe could out jump Brent Barry nor do I think hes got more body control. Clippers/Bulls Barry was just out of hand sometimes with the shots and passes hed pull out of his ass from impossible angles. Kobes stronger and quicker in the halfcourt....but im not saying Brent is a better athlete.

What im saying is that Kobe is a guy who has a looooooooooooooooooooooooong list of guys who are equal or better than him at something. He makes it up in other areas in most of those things....but as a total athlete I see no reason to rank him above Nate robinson who id call faster, stronger overall(partly due to build), and a far far better leaper. Nate is an NFL level corner athletic ability wise.

Kobe doesnt belong in a "Top 10 for sure" list. Kobe isnt Kobe because hes athletic. Hes Kobe because he works his ass off and combined natural talent with a great desire to be great. Athletically? Pure physical talent? Hes not much more than DerMarr Johnson plus a weight room.

[QUOTE=iamgine]If he's a genius at all, I'd say he's a genius at knowing his role on the court. He knew that he can only do one thing good and that's rebounding and defense so that's what he does. If you want to call that genius then we have very different definition of bball IQ. And mind you average NBA player has much higher bball IQ than common ballers so it's not really an insult to call his bball IQ average. It's just not in the class of MJ, bird, pippen and others.[/QUOTE]
I know his IQ isn't in the league of Bird and MJ, that's why I said that his IQ is unmatched by few. There is only a few guys that have a better IQ than Rodman, obviously MJ, Bird, Magic, et cetera are the few that are above Rodman.

Just because Rodman doesn't do everything on the court, doesn't mean he doesn't know what to do. He does his job, because that's what he wanted to do and not many people wanted to take the role of the guy who wanted to get dirty.

An example of this would be Rasheed Wallace. I read something not too long ago (it might have been on here) that said he knows every play from every position. But, does he play every play from every position? No, he just knows how to. He knows exactly where everybody should be and exactly what they should be doing. That constitutes a part of his basketball IQ. I'm sure Rodman was to something like that with the Pistons, Spurs and/or Bulls.

Also, Rodman claimed to watch tapes of his teammates shots, so that he knew roughly the paterns of their rebounds. Now, we all know that when a person shoots from the right side of the basket, the ball is more than likely going to rebound off to the left side of the basket, but do we know how high or how far? No, that is something you just have to assume when you go for a rebound. Rodman watched tapes of his teammate shooting, so that he would know how high the ball rebounded and how far out the ball rebounded, giving him a much easier time on the boards. This alone doesn't make Rodman a great basketball mind, but it sure as hell makes up a part of his basketball mind, which was great.

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]An example of this would be Rasheed Wallace. I read something not too long ago (it might have been on here) that said he knows every play from every position.[/QUOTE]

Surprised the heck out of me too when I read that. Apparently Sheed could tell you every movement for every player on every set play in Detroit's play book... and that was back when that play book had the size of the bible.

[QUOTE=Heretik32]Surprised the heck out of me too when I read that. Apparently Sheed could tell you every movement for every player on every set play in Detroit's play book... and that was back when that play book had the size of the bible.[/QUOTE]
It is crazy how he knows that. But it just gives him more ammo to work with. I just wish that he would use it more.

Jordan is the best pure athlete Jackson's ever coached while Shaq is the most imposing force. Basically, it's a tossup between those two. Given Shaq's size though, you might as well give him the edge.

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]I know his IQ isn't in the league of Bird and MJ, that's why I said that his IQ is unmatched by few. There is only a few guys that have a better IQ than Rodman, obviously MJ, Bird, Magic, et cetera are the few that are above Rodman.

Just because Rodman doesn't do everything on the court, doesn't mean he doesn't know what to do. He does his job, because that's what he wanted to do and not many people wanted to take the role of the guy who wanted to get dirty.

An example of this would be Rasheed Wallace. I read something not too long ago (it might have been on here) that said he knows every play from every position. But, does he play every play from every position? No, he just knows how to. He knows exactly where everybody should be and exactly what they should be doing. That constitutes a part of his basketball IQ. I'm sure Rodman was to something like that with the Pistons, Spurs and/or Bulls.

Also, Rodman claimed to watch tapes of his teammates shots, so that he knew roughly the paterns of their rebounds. Now, we all know that when a person shoots from the right side of the basket, the ball is more than likely going to rebound off to the left side of the basket, but do we know how high or how far? No, that is something you just have to assume when you go for a rebound. Rodman watched tapes of his teammate shooting, so that he would know how high the ball rebounded and how far out the ball rebounded, giving him a much easier time on the boards. This alone doesn't make Rodman a great basketball mind, but it sure as hell makes up a part of his basketball mind, which was great.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, an average NBA player already has great bball mind compared to common baller. What makes Rodman different (bball iq wise) than Bowen (who also studied his opponent), Sheed, Billups, Sasha (hell, he know his role too), and the rest? Only a few guys made it from average to great. Guys like those I listed, MJ, Bird, etc.

[QUOTE=Mathius]

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.
[/QUOTE]



I do agree Rodman is an amazing athlete. (I believe he has a higher vertical than Jordan and Pip)

But there is more to being a bball player than just athletism. And it's silly of you to think Rodman could have surpassed Jordan as an offensive player just if he put in the effort. Jordan proved from 96 on his greatness wasn't based on athletism. It was 100% skill.

[QUOTE=iamgine]Like I said, an average NBA player already has great bball mind compared to common baller. What makes Rodman different (bball iq wise) than Bowen (who also studied his opponent), Sheed, Billups, Sasha (hell, he know his role too), and the rest? Only a few guys made it from average to great. Guys like those I listed, MJ, Bird, etc.[/QUOTE]
Yes, NBA players do have a very good to great knowledge of the game compared to your average baller, but Rodman had a better knowledge of the game than those guys. MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. had an even better knowledge.

There's a difference between, knowing your role and just flat out knowing the game of basketball. Rodman knew the game of basketball. To me, someone like Sasha V. only knows his role. Sure, he probably has a great IQ compared just anyone, but compared to someone like Rodman? He isn't that bright.

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]Yes, NBA players do have a very good to great knowledge of the game compared to your average baller, but[B] Rodman had a better knowledge of the game than those guys[/B]. MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. had an even better knowledge.

There's a difference between, knowing your role and just flat out knowing the game of basketball. Rodman knew the game of basketball. To me, someone like Sasha V. only knows his role. Sure, he probably has a great IQ compared just anyone, but compared to someone like Rodman? He isn't that bright.[/QUOTE]
nah he has none of the vision & knowledge the greats have. only on rebounds maybe, but that's more instinctive. certainly not on offense nor defense. He's a great defender due to his athleticism but he cannot coordinate the team defense. He had freaky athleticism and willingness to sacrifice, pretty deadly combination nonetheless.

[QUOTE=iamgine]nah he has none of the vision & knowledge the greats have. only on rebounds maybe, but that's more instinctive. certainly not on offense nor defense. He's a great defender due to his athleticism but he cannot coordinate the team defense. He had freaky athleticism and willingness to sacrifice, pretty deadly combination nonetheless.[/QUOTE]
Rodman's knowledge is matched by almost no one in today's NBA. Only guys such as MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. have better knowledge of the game. I can't think of anyone in today's NBA that ranks anywhere near Rodman in terms of knowledge of the game, Duncan is the only guy that comes to me straight away, other than that I can't think of many guys. Maybe Rasheed?

[QUOTE=eliteballer]I wouldn't bet against Rodman beating Jordan in a weightlifting or speed contest. He was also very coordinated for his size.[/QUOTE]

one thing i know about MJ:
i have game 1 of the 1992 nba finals on DVD and in the pre-game Ahmad Rashad says how he weight lifted with MJ hours before the game and MJ was benching 265 lbs. im sure he could push 300 on off-days. jordan was also one of the only players to actually lift before games. you ever try doing a full work out of lifting weights and then simply just shooting baskets? that is HARD!

[QUOTE=iamgine]You do know that basketball isn't all about rebounds and his basketball IQ was just average if not below. Not like Pippen, Bird or MJ who had great Bball IQ. While it's true that he had a knack for where rebounds went, he also used his freak athleticism to get the rebounds.[/QUOTE]

for anyone saying dennis rodman did not have a great basketball IQ... that is one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard. dude couldn't score but he knew what he had to do in his role, knew how to get the ball, knew how to make the right pass, etc. dude was only as great as he was cause of his bball iq. he was also arguably the best player EVER at getting under people's skin. watch the 1990 eastern conference finals and see how he throws pippen's game off, the 1996 finals how he single handidly made frank brikowski explode, causing a huge distraction to the sonics, and see him against malone in 97 and 98. he had the great knowledge to know that one way to win was to get underneath the skin of opponents. why do you think larry bird and michael jordan trash talked so many people? to prove that they were better? no- it was obvious that they were. they did it to throw people off their game. it seems simple enough, but not a lot of people play those mental games with the same degree of success as mj, bird, rodman, and reggie miller too.

also, not in terms of his IQ- but Rodman was one of 3 players ever, in my opinion to really be effective in guarding magic johnson. dennis johnson totally threw him off in 1984, rodman played him very effectivley in 1988 and 1989, and the turning point after the game 1 loss in the 1991 finals by the bulls was putting pippen on magic starting in game 2. pippen harassed the crap ouf of magic in games 2 through 5- same as dj and dennis.

dennis may not be the best or the most athletic ever but he sure was no dummy. excellent basketball iq.

[QUOTE=gotbacon23]one thing i know about MJ:
i have game 1 of the 1992 nba finals on DVD and in the pre-game Ahmad Rashad says how he weight lifted with MJ hours before the game and MJ was benching 265 lbs. im sure he could push 300 on off-days. jordan was also one of the only players to actually lift before games. you ever try doing a full work out of lifting weights and then simply just shooting baskets? that is HARD![/QUOTE]
I've tried it before and it feels wierd. When I tried it, the ball felt light, but heavy at the same time. When you go to shoot, you just have no juice in your arms and feels like your pushing up a rock.