Kobe Bryant scores 61 points against Knicks in Madison Square Garden

[QUOTE=Showtime]First off, saying Kobe is closest to MJ is a debate in itself, not a conclusion. Second, even if he was, WHY DOES THAT MATTER? It doesn't. His fans constantly make comments about him being the best ____ ever, aka better than every other player in that area. That automatically creates a debate.[/QUOTE]

Again Kobe has proven what he can do on the court. I don't see anyone else in the conversation right now -- so I'm not sure if it really is a debate.

Anyways, you seem to act like there is a Magic carpet ride to the Finals. Acting like the other playoff games don't matter. In reality, every playoff game counts -- you have to win to advance. That's not a defense of Kobe's Finals performances, it's just real truth.

[QUOTE=KenneBell]I wouldn't spend multiple pages trying to explain to them why he's not. :oldlol:

You guys are taking these trolls too seriously. They've baited you.[/QUOTE]

I've always thought that Trolls were posters that posted posts that they not necessarily believed, but knew would create a certain reaction.

I think most of these Kobe stans believe what they post.

It was a nice performance by Kobe, I saw him hit some tough shots and one that had me laughing (that twisting shot in the last minute), but as impressive as it was, I have to agree with the more mature posters.

Great performance but that doesn't make him the GOAT or even better than MJ.

I mean... what if Arenas comes back and drops 64 against the Knicks at the Garden?

We all know he can.

Or what if Bron drops 60 against Kobe next game?

Speaking of Bron, I think his 50 at the Garden was more impressive, because of HOW he was doing it. People are free to point at the numbers and Kobe's efficiency and even at a few of his shots, but Bron was crazy that last quarter and a half.

[QUOTE=chopchop20]Anyways, you seem to act like there is a Magic carpet ride to the Finals. Acting like the other playoff games don't matter. In reality, every playoff game counts -- you have to win to advance. That's not a defense of Kobe's Finals performances, it's just real truth.[/QUOTE]
I'm not acting like getting to the finals is easy. What a player does when they get there does matter. And it's not JUST winning, it's performing to the maximum (which usually translates into winning in players of that calibre). For instance, MJ wasn't getting to the finals early in his career, but in losing to superior teams, he was the best player on the court and put up amazing series while losing. He did everything he could at that time, dominated, and lost. Kobe, on the other hand, in losing, doesn't play his best. Would you say Kobe in 2004 or 2008 played the best basketball he could? Would you say he was the best player on the court, did his best, and just lost to superior teams? No.

And I'm not trying to say MJ never struggled. I'm saying I don't see Kobe having consistently played a high level of ball through the playoffs with the exception of his first 3 rounds last year.

[QUOTE=Showtime][B]Kobe is only in MJ's class in your opinion.[/B] To me, a player on the same level as another player should at least have proven they can play on the same level. Kobe hasn't proven that to me. And I've seen a lot of Kobe Bryant.



Does that mean AI and Gervin are on Kobe's level because of their similar (and in some cases superior) scoring accomplishments?[/QUOTE]

I prefaced my statements NOT by saying that Kobe is better than MJ. I made a comparison moreso pertaining to offensive skill... In that context, I don't see a wide gap between MJ and Kobe as offensive players. Kobe has had some amazing performances that even MJ did not accomplish and vice versa.

I do give the nod to MJ for efficiency. Speaking of Jordan's "dominance" is really a mute point because we already KNOW that. That's what made Michael, MJ.

And another thing, I don't get the whole "proven to me". History has been written and was updated tonight... whether or not what Kobe has done "proves" anything to you matters a dayum. Those performances are still going to be there and that PROVES that he's had some great offensive performances like very few players in NBA history.

Breaking the scoring record at MSG after 13 years in the league and getting the appreciation from the crowd is a pretty good moment, in my book.

[QUOTE=chopchop20]I prefaced my statements NOT by saying that Kobe is better than MJ. I made a comparison moreso pertaining to offensive skill... In that context, I don't see a wide gap between MJ and Kobe as offensive players. Kobe has had some amazing performances that even MJ did not accomplish and vice versa.[/quote]

Which is exactly why I said he's in the same class in YOUR opinion.

[quote]And another thing, I don't get the whole "proven to me". History has been written and was updated tonight... whether or not what Kobe has done "proves" anything to you matters a dayum. Those performances are still going to be there and that PROVES that he's had some great offensive performances like very few players in NBA history.[/quote]

His career is still going on. He has many more games ahead of him. At this point, that's all you have. If YOU think that's enough to put him in MJ's level as a scorer, then that's your opinion. To me, when equating two players, one player has to be able to prove they can accomplish the same level of play, which Kobe hasn't done in my opinion. I haven't seen him play to the same level as a scorer as MJ, mainly because of his postseason career so far up to this point.

I will bring this up again: do you feel that AI and Gervin are on Kobe's level as a scorer because of their scoring accomplishments, some of which are superior to Kobe's?

[quote]Breaking the scoring record at MSG after 13 years in the league and getting the appreciation from the crowd is a pretty good moment, in my book.[/QUOTE]

Nobody said anything different. I wasn't trying to downgrade his performance tonight.

[QUOTE=andgar923]

Great performance but that doesn't make him the GOAT or even better than MJ.

I mean... what if Arenas comes back and drops 64 against the Knicks at the Garden?

We all know he can.

Or what if Bron drops 60 against Kobe next game?

Speaking of Bron, I think his 50 at the Garden was more impressive, because of HOW he was doing it. People are free to point at the numbers and Kobe's efficiency and even at a few of his shots, but Bron was crazy that last quarter and a half.[/QUOTE]

im not sure what you are insinuating, that dropping 60 is easy and not impressive at all?

gilbert scored 60 once and now he can just go off on any night? Brons never scored 60 but he can also go off on any given night?

Other than Wilt, Jordan, and Kobe. who else has scored 60 more than once?

and of the hundreds of stars that have played in this league how many have joined the 60pt club. I dont think you understand how rare of an occurrence these games are.

edit: i think elgin dropped 60 more than once as well.

I'm not sure what's more hilarious; The people claiming Kobe to be the greatest ever based on this game, or the people who are taking offense and having heart attacks right in front of our very eyes.

We can all agree that Kobe had a great night. He dropped 61 points, a record-setting number in MSG. I've heard posters say "well, the Knicks defense sucks!" Okay, so why doesn't everyone clobber them like Kobe just did? The fact is, the guy's an unbelievable scorer and deserves our recognition.

Some people are clearly blowing his performance out of proportion, but they're probably just young fans with little NBA perspective. That or they're trolls. Either way, furiously arguing with them over why Michael Jordan is better than Kobe serves no purpose. You'll fail at changing anyones mind, it'll be a waste of time, and you'll further drag down the quality of this board.

Instead, why not just congratulate Kobe on a great night and be on your way? Use a disclaimer if you have to: While it's only a regular-season game against a porous Knicks defense, Kobe still had a pretty great game and deserves some credit. That's it. That's all you need to say. It'll certainly help cut down on these ridiculous arguments and save your energy for actually making good, productive posts that help enhance this board's quality, instead of deteriorating it.

Oh my lord.


Somebody called it earlier. Not sure who, but he said Kobe is gone, and Black Mamba is here.

61 against the Knicks....

Ill be happy when he gets 61 and the Lakers beat the Celtics.
I'm not impressed.








[COLOR="White"]Sike[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Showtime]I'm not acting like getting to the finals is easy. What a player does when they get there does matter. And it's not JUST winning, it's performing to the maximum (which usually translates into winning in players of that calibre). For instance, MJ wasn't getting to the finals early in his career, but in losing to superior teams, he was the best player on the court and put up amazing series while losing. He did everything he could at that time, dominated, and lost. Kobe, on the other hand, in losing, doesn't play his best. [B]Would you say Kobe in 2004 or 2008 played the best basketball he could? Would you say he was the best player on the court, did his best, and just lost to superior teams? No.

And I'm not trying to say MJ never struggled. I'm saying I don't see Kobe having consistently played a high level of ball through the playoffs with the exception of his first 3 rounds last year.[/QUOTE]
[/B]

2004 was not good, had a couple of good games in 2008 Finals & overall playoffs was solid. Just trying to keep it in context when we can't even discuss bad Finals performances from T-Mac, Vince, and other Kobe contemporaries because they have gotten there (which you have to do to win it)

Kobe's had poor Finals like Magic, Bird, etc... very few can touch MJ in that regard (though I'd argue for Shaq)

As a whole, I think Kobe has done well in the playoffs especially in the 3-peat, series where he averaged like 35 or so. And he and Shaq set the record for scoring duo in the playoffs in 2001 when Kobe averaged like 29 points or so. Great moments too setting up Game winning shots for Horry and Fisher, leading the Lakers over Indiana after Shaq fouled out, blocking Rick Smits shot in OT to win

Again, Kobe's no A-Rod.

I don't know about GOAT. Thats a bit much.

But Kobe had a great offensive game. He was hot. And it was mostly within the offense. Few and 1's.

Not to mention Pau's incredible night.

Lakers scored 30+ point in every quarter.

[QUOTE=crisoner]61 against the Knicks....

Ill be happy when he gets 61 and the Lakers beat the Celtics.
I'm not impressed.








[COLOR="White"]Sike[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Edit - Your white text got me!

[QUOTE=chopchop20][/B]

2004 was not good, had a couple of good games in 2008 Finals & overall playoffs was solid. Just trying to keep it in context when we can't even discuss bad Finals performances from T-Mac, Vince, and other Kobe contemporaries because they have gotten there (which you have to do to win it)

Kobe's had poor Finals like Magic, Bird, etc... very few can touch MJ in that regard (though I'd argue for Shaq)

As a whole, I think Kobe has done well in the playoffs especially in the 3-peat, series where he averaged like 35 or so. And he and Shaq set the record for scoring duo in the playoffs in 2001 when Kobe averaged like 29 points or so. Great moments too setting up Game winning shots for Horry and Fisher, leading the Lakers over Indiana after Shaq fouled out, blocking Rick Smits shot in OT to win

Again, Kobe's no A-Rod.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying Kobe is A-Rod. I'm not saying Kobe is a bad player. I'm not saying Kobe is a poor scorer. I'm saying I don't think they are on the same level. Why is this difficult to grasp? People think if I don't think Kobe is as good, it means he's a bad player. IT JUST MEANS I DON'T THINK THEY ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL. THAT'S ALL. Kobe is a HOF SG, and might end up as the second best at his position of all time. He's arguably the best offensive player since MJ. Just because I don't think they are the same doesn't mean I think Kobe can't play.

[QUOTE=YAWN]im not sure what you are insinuating, that dropping 60 is easy and not impressive at all?

gilbert scored 60 once and now he can just go off on any night? Brons never scored 60 but he can also go off on any given night?

Other than Wilt, Jordan, and Kobe. who else has scored 60 more than once?

and of the hundreds of stars that have played in this league how many have joined the 60pt club. I dont think you understand how rare of an occurrence these games are.

edit: i think elgin dropped 60 more than once as well.[/QUOTE]

I was trying to make a point to the Kobe ******gers.

They keep saying that he's the GOAT due to this performance which bettered MJ's.

I was just using their logic against them.

What if Arenas beats that record? Will he be better than Kobe then?

I think its a legit question if we use that logic, which of course, to most normal fans it doesn't make sense.

But that's not my logic, its theirs.

[QUOTE=Showtime]I will bring this up again: do you feel that AI and Gervin are on Kobe's level as a scorer because of their scoring accomplishments, some of which are superior to Kobe's?[/QUOTE]

I don't see Iverson at all. Too small, Kobe ability to post up and finish on practically anybody makes this a mismatch (AI might not even be as good a point guard as Kobe.)

Ice Man, good shooter & finisher definitely on par in terms of versatility and offensive skill. Kobe's explosiveness is the deciding edge. I don't see Iceman being as good off the bounce. Younger Kobe was an outstanding slasher and he still gets to the hoop pretty well now.