30 minute Lebron video and a totally statless case for him to be top 20 ever. Today.

First of all, LeBron is neither taller or heavier than Malone. You get on Malone's lack of clutch ability and his game not being conducive to creating shots late, but he was actually a better shooter than LeBron when he won his MVP's, and LeBron has absolutely stunk it up against the two best teams he faced in the playoffs(Spurs, Celtics) because of his lack of ability to shot. Dude got swept on the Finals and lost on a 66 win team with homecourt.

You also talk about LeBron not needing to take tough shots...yet hes never shot better than 49% in a season and his lack of ability to score because of a lack of dribble creativity and shooting ability when his drives are cut off make him have to take tough shots(for him) meaning jumpers...

Wade is equal to or better than Nash, Dirk, Malone, Iverson and probably right there with Kobe and maybe Garnett in 04. None of them were just a mile beyond Wade as players. due partly to teams they had more MVP worthy seasons I suppose. But Wade is without a doubt one of the greatest players of all time and currently better than a number of the top 50 as of 97. I loved Clyde drexler but he wasnt better than Wade. Nor was Nique(who should have been top 50). Or Stockton. Gary PAyton wasnt top 50 but hes a HOF player...not better than Wade. Wade like Lebron and Kobe is top 40, maybe top 30, and would get taken over some of the top 20 if people want to be honest with themselves about the word "Best".

Elite....ive seen Malone listed anywhere from 6'8'' to 9...and 250-270. about the same as Lebron or less depending on when in his career you mean.

And what is "He never shot over 49%" even saying? A swingman shooting 49% isnt enough?

And while Lebron lost with a 66 win team hes yet to pull a Malone and lose with a 60 win team in the first round. Or multiple 50 win teams in the first. Karl Malone did not have it in him to take over a game like the one vs the Pistons where he scored 31 of the last 33 and just rained jumpers from everywhere. EH wasnt a "Give him the ball and get out of the way" scorer you could rely on like that. Which is why Stockton was often the closer. Not that you didnt know that....


As for this:

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Chamberlain
Russel
Abdul Jabbar
Mosses
Barkley
Dr. J
Oscar
West
Walton
Gervin
Isiah
Shaq
Kobe
Pippen
Malone
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwan
Duncan
Kidd
Webber
Garnett


The mere fact you list Chris Webber, Kidd, and Pippen makes my point for me. chris Webber did nothing....NOTHING to justify any ranking Lebron doesnt. He won less, had worse numbers, less elite seasons in a career than Lebron has at 24(00-03...thats it) had worse playoff success, was hurt a lot more, and is known as among the greatest chokers of all time(partly due to the NCAa but the fact remains..he is). Jason Kidd was never as highly regarded as Lebron. Even when he got MVP talk. He was never Lebron. He wasnt a guy people were gonna call the best player on earth. Pippen is my second favorite player ever....he showed a lot in 94 and 95 without MJ. But he sure as hell isnt just better than Lebron.

And Lebron doesnt have to do anything others did to be better than them. Doesnt matter how the question is posed really. Matters how good a player you are. And a lot of these guys just arent better. Emotion and respect might not lead some to say so but fact is...Lebron is better than most everyone to evr play basketball. We really gonna pretend that Lebron on the Royals in place of Oscar Robertson makes them worse? Oscar robertson led average to pretty good teams...led them nowhere...had literally nothing as a teams best player to build his legacy on but stats...much of the league considered him arrogant and ive read players quoted saying West was far better because he was a good teammate.

But im to act like Oscar just blows him away because.........of....what?

Give me a reason oscar robertson was better than Lebron. Its not an era thing either. Bill Russell? wilt? fine. No argument here.

What did Oscar robertson do? Did he win as much in the regular season even when he had a HOF bigman in Lucas? No. Did he win as much in the playoffs? No. Did he do anything Lebron didnt with the exception of the more rebounds and assists in a league teams were scoring 115-120 a game? No. was he a better shooter? Do you have evidence of him being a better defender? shot blocker? Can you name the games he took over? I can think of a couple...but I didnt see them fully.

Can you actually give me one speck of justificaiton for Oscar robertson being better on the floor than Lebron James...other than it just sounding right?

And im not even saying Lebron SHOULD be over robertson. Im not even saying I would rank Lebron top 15 all time as I would Oscar. But I dont think one person here can give me a reason Oscar is better than Lebron that wouldnt justify Lebron being better than chris webber or half the others you listed there.

Im just saying that a lot of the time we let reasoning go out the window in favor of the simple popular opinion and emotions.

Dont like to see a young guy next to Oscar, Baylor, and Karl Malone. But the fact is...none of them did a single thing as a teams best player he didnt. And plenty of people who did....you are flat out lying if you tell me you would start a team with them before Lebron.

The guy is good. Great. All time great. nearly all time elite.

Emotion and what "feels right" shouldnt stand in the way of reality. We arent talking about Lebron vs Bill Russell. A guy who won all but 2 elimination games of any kind(HS, NCAA, Olympic, or NBA) in his life. We are talking Lebron vs a bunch of guys who did nothing he didnt and in many cases were factually inferior for reasons ranging from era, to health, or just individual dominance.

Why should one guy be called better than someone when he just....isnt. Especially when you cant even list things the "better" guy did that the worse guy didnt. We are ranking a superior player...behind worse ones...who didnt even accomplish anything he didnt. Cant eve nsay "Well ___ led his team to the title" in most of these cases.

Its little more than emotion and what "feels right" in some of these comparisons.

Kblaze, who are your top 5 favorite players? You mentioned Pippen was #2, I thought MJ and Bird were your two favorites...but maybe I misread something you wrote. Thanks.

Scottie gets my #2 because he was a Bull. My top 5 if I disregard my fanhood is something like:

Jordan
Bird
Pippen
Magic
Hakeem

Isiah in there somewhere. Shaq as well. Duncan next tier.

But really...my favorites period?

1.Jordan
2.Pippen
3.Gervin. I was at like....20 Bulls games in 86 and he was my favorite player then...and the second nicest NBA player I ever met after:
4.BJ Armstrong. Nicest athlete ive spoken to. Really easy to root for.
5.Bird

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Scottie gets my #2 because he was a Bull. My top 5 if I disregard my fanhood is something like:

Jordan
Bird
Pippen
Magic
Hakeem

Isiah in there somewhere. Shaq as well. Duncan next tier.

But really...my favorites period?

1.Jordan
2.Pippen
3.Gervin. I was at like....20 Bulls games in 86 and he was my favorite player then...and the second nicest NBA player I ever met after:
4.BJ Armstrong. Nicest athlete ive spoken to. Really easy to root for.
5.Bird[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Glad to see someone besides die-hard Pistons fans giving Isiah props. I always felt like he was sort of disregarded because so many people didn't like him. I've heard greats like Jerry West say they thought Dumars was better. And since his retirement, he's been pushed a little bit further down most people's list than I think he should be. He was a hell of a competitor who willingly changed his game from offensive showman to win championships in the same era that MJ, Magic and Bird were all playing at or near the top of their abilities.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Wade is equal to or better than Nash, Dirk, Malone, Iverson and probably right there with Kobe and maybe Garnett in 04. None of them were just a mile beyond Wade as players. due partly to teams they had more MVP worthy seasons I suppose. But Wade is without a doubt one of the greatest players of all time and currently better than a number of the top 50 as of 97. I loved Clyde drexler but he wasnt better than Wade. Nor was Nique(who should have been top 50). Or Stockton. Gary PAyton wasnt top 50 but hes a HOF player...not better than Wade. Wade like Lebron and Kobe is top 40, maybe top 30, and would get taken over some of the top 20 if people want to be honest with themselves about the word "Best".

Elite....ive seen Malone listed anywhere from 6'8'' to 9...and 250-270. about the same as Lebron or less depending on when in his career you mean.

And what is "He never shot over 49%" even saying? A swingman shooting 49% isnt enough?

And while Lebron lost with a 66 win team hes yet to pull a Malone and lose with a 60 win team in the first round. Or multiple 50 win teams in the first. Karl Malone did not have it in him to take over a game like the one vs the Pistons where he scored 31 of the last 33 and just rained jumpers from everywhere. EH wasnt a "Give him the ball and get out of the way" scorer you could rely on like that. Which is why Stockton was often the closer. Not that you didnt know that....
[/QUOTE]
Jeeze, you really hate Malone for some reason, He obviously wasn't clutch, and the only real problem I've ever had with Sloans coaching was giving him the ball in the last minutes to much (And still playing kirilenko, but...... I just plain hate Kirilenko) but every time the Jazz lost they lost to a better team, (except maybe 95 rockets, and 01 Mavs, but thats only 2 outs like 18 straight stockton Malone playoffs) Also I find it hard to believe that Lebron is really as big as Malone......just look at them
[IMG]http://johnjohnsaidit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/karl-malone.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0706/gallery.nba.lebron.james.action/images/lebron-james-2009-01-23.jpg[/IMG]

.... Is it really even possible? I'm guessing Malone was in the low 280's, Lebrons looks like hes in the low 260's. You can't really trust the listings.

maybe lebron had bigger legs dunno or maybe malone is 270-280

[QUOTE=inclinerator]maybe lebron had bigger legs dunno or maybe malone is 270-280[/QUOTE]


They never updated the height and weight listing on Basketball Reference.com, and NBA.com

LeBron was already 245 lbs. in his rookie season.

[QUOTE]every time the Jazz lost they lost to a better team, (except maybe 95 rockets, and 01 Mavs, but thats only 2 outs like 18 straight stockton Malone playoffs) [/QUOTE]

Nah. I only checked until 92 and I found 3 years already that they lost to a team with a worse record. And then they lose in the first round with a 61 win team in 95. They had a better record than the Blazers too. And the Mavs you mentioned. he lost in the first round with 6 teams that won 47-61 games.

And LebronI think they said was 6'9'' 278 at his biggest last year. Malone supposed to be 250-265 pounds. Id buy 270+ as well. Depends on when. He played a long time and in 20 years your weight is gonna change. Lebron is at least the size of late 80s early 90s Malone.

Thank you KBlaze for building such a great case here. The same can be said about Wade for most players to, but Wade is not as indiidually spectacular as LeBron is. There are very few players that I would take over LeBron to start a franchise.

Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt
Russell
Magic maybe
KAJ

and I feel like I may have left out one. That is it that you can honestly say you would take over LeBron James to start a team with.

KBlaze, How do you feel about Bill Russell, people constantly call him overrated because of his lack of offensive game, Tell me how you feel about him.

I'll copy something I said a while back

[QUOTE]Bill Russell was the best player on 11 title teams. This guy won 8 titles in a row. He got 30 rebounds or more the last 3 games of the 59 finals. In game 7 of the 60 finals he had 22 points and 35 rebounds. He had 30 points and 38 rebounds to close out the 61 finals. He had 30 points and 40(yes...40) rebounds in the OT game 7 win vs the Lakers in the 62 finals. He was just under a triple double to close out the 63 finals with 12/24/9 assists. In 65 he had 22 points and 30 rebounds to win the title also setting the finals record for shooting percentage over 70%. Next year? Game 7....2 point win...25 points...32 rebounds. He had 26 rebounds/6 assists in the last game of his career. A game 7 win on the road. In 11 win or go home final games of a tied series of any kind...hes 11-0. the guy only lost two playoff series of any kind from age 15 to 35 and he was injured and out in one of them(second season in the finals). HS titles. 2 NCAA titles. Gold medal. 11 NBA titles. **** he even COACHED two of the teams to NBA titles.

Bill Russell is likely the greatest and most consistient big game player in basketball history and the crazy thing is his greatest impact cant even be measured. And he did it all in a town that by most accounts didnt even respect him. Break into the mans house because he moved into a white neighborhod. Pathetic.

Bill russell went hard for 20 years winning at a rate never seen before or since.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Kobe had at least 24 games of under 40% shooting last year and I dont think the season had ended at the time. Ben Gordon at the time had 21. Lebron had 8. Lebrons style of play just isnt gonna produce as many bad nights as Kobes. Kobe takes bad shots compared to Lebron. Is that even up for debate?[/QUOTE]
Last 4 years in playoffs over nearly the same # of games, Lebron has 20 games under 40% shooting (a third of all games he has played!) while Kobe has 15. If that's your measure of consistency then it's not proving anything. Kobe's shot selection tightens up in the playoffs by the way. Lebron's flaky jumper makes him prone to just as many bad shooting nights. The 2% difference in their FG% can pretty much be accounted by Lebron getting more fast break dunks (younger, quicker so he can get those steals), but in a half court setting? I bet their efficiency is identical.

It's just funny that you keep West/Baylor on the list and take Kobe off...makes no sense.

You speak of consistency while disregarding the largest sample size in favor of matchups that represent what a guy does for a matter of weeks(or in Kobes case sometimes one week)? The playoffs matter more but when we are comparing players vs two totally different groups of opponents(with 2 exceptions) on very different teams? In the playoffs a team can focus all it has on one player depending on what his teammates can do to make the mpay. You know in game 7 vs the Pistons in 06 Lebron scored himself or assisted on all but 7 shots the Cavs made? The entire team aside from him managed to get 7 shots into the basket. We have seen in the playoffs Lebron(and Kobe on occasion) get doubled all game just daring the others to win the game. Lebron next game after he scored the 29 in a row was as doubled as any non bigman ive ever seen. Kobe got some right across halfcourt doubles vs the suns. Teams totally change how they play a guy in the playoffs over 6-7 games. Its not an accurate idea of what a guy does night in night out in the NBA.

In 08 Kobe shot under 40% 30 times. 24 in 07. 26 in 06. He managed it 23 times in just 66 games in 05 while Lebron coming into the season at age 19 did it 13 times in 80 games. Kobe damn near doubled him up in fewer games.

Lebron had 13 this year, 17 in 08, 29 in 07 and 18 in 06 . The only year he surpassed Kobe he played 20 playoff games to get there while Kobe went out in the first round(Kobe played an extra 7 this year.). And in 06 Kobe is out first round while Lebron plays 13 playoff games and still cant catch up.

I dont even see how this is an argument. We all see how they play. Kobes game is based on his jumper falling. As good as he is you just cant rely on that the way you can Lebron getting to the basket.

And thats not even the entire reason id rather have Lebron.

I dont see much of a reason to go with Kobe really.Lebron has been roughly as good or a better defender for 2 years. Hes a better passer(not to be confused with just getting assists). Ive heard little drama and few claims of him being difficult with teammates. Worst ive heard of Lebron was Gooden jokingly saying that in Chicago they share the ball. Then as he got the ball more he started to suck...Bulls fans hated him...and he ends up on the Spurs(5th team in 7 years) getting 8 minutes total over 2 playoff games.....anyway. Kobe is better at making difficult shots but I dont value the making of bad shots over the making of easy ones when I can rely on those shots. Not talking about a Dwight easy shot like a dunk that you cant really predict. You can give Lebron the ball...move out of his way...and he will score or get fouled at a fantastic rate. Its almost a lock.

hes the most individually dominant and unstoppable swingman ive seen since Jordan in his youth and if he isnt...Wade is. I can see someone saying Kobe is better or more skilled but not more effective.

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. Wade won it all on a team with less than Kobe had to work with. And Lebron led a finals team that had no more talent than the ones Kobe missed the playoffs with and lost in the first round. The only player aside from Bron on the Cavs 07 roster id even take on the Bulls right now(in 07 form even) is Z. Gibson when thej umper is falling but really...hes the Bulls #3 guard at best.

The Cavs team he took to the finals was simply abominable(by finals team standards). Really....would you rather have the entire 07 Cavs supporting cast or just the second best player from any finals team of the last 5 years?

Gasol
Pierce
Lewis
Parker
Howard
Billups/Ben Wallace
Shaq/Kobe(questionable by 2004)


Josh Howard is the only second option id even consider trading for their whole 07 roster...and id end up saying no just to dodge Larry Hughes. Larry Hughes managed to shoot 31 and 35% in back to back playoffs....

Lebron did work with a lottery team. And he just led another one to the most wins ever by a team with nearly that little talent to work with. Dirk didnt have a huge amount but give me Howard and terry over the entire Cavs roster. They arent even talented on defense as some claim. Ben Wallace is pushing 60 and anderson is a talented defender as is West but really...they more talented on D than the Bulls with Hinrich, Hunter, Tyrus, Deng, and Noah? More than the Bobcats were with Wallace, Emeka, and Raja?

The Cavs arent expecially good at anything but giving the ball to Lebron to win them games.

That hes done what he has wit hthose teams gives me little reason to doubt he could win with almost anything I give him to work with. A guy who can get to the basket as if nothing is in his way is always easy to build around. Give him 2 shooters and 2 bigmen who can catch and you can win games.

Lebron just seems like a far better pick to start a team...even throwing out age.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You speak of consistency while disregarding the largest sample size in favor of matchups that represent what a guy does for a matter of weeks(or in Kobes case sometimes one week)? The playoffs matter more but when we are comparing players vs two totally different groups of opponents(with 2 exceptions) on very different teams? In the playoffs a team can focus all it has on one player depending on what his teammates can do to make the mpay. You know in game 7 vs the Pistons in 06 Lebron scored himself or assisted on all but 7 shots the Cavs made? The entire team aside from him managed to get 7 shots into the basket. We have seen in the playoffs Lebron(and Kobe on occasion) get doubled all game just daring the others to win the game. Lebron next game after he scored the 29 in a row was as doubled as any non bigman ive ever seen. Kobe got some right across halfcourt doubles vs the suns. Teams totally change how they play a guy in the playoffs over 6-7 games. Its not an accurate idea of what a guy does night in night out in the NBA.

In 08 Kobe shot under 40% 30 times. 24 in 07. 26 in 06. He managed it 23 times in just 66 games in 05 while Lebron coming into the season at age 19 did it 13 times in 80 games. Kobe damn near doubled him up in fewer games.

Lebron had 13 this year, 17 in 08, 29 in 07 and 18 in 06 . The only year he surpassed Kobe he played 20 playoff games to get there while Kobe went out in the first round(Kobe played an extra 7 this year.). And in 06 Kobe is out first round while Lebron plays 13 playoff games and still cant catch up.

I dont even see how this is an argument. We all see how they play. Kobes game is based on his jumper falling. As good as he is you just cant rely on that the way you can Lebron getting to the basket.

And thats not even the entire reason id rather have Lebron.

I dont see much of a reason to go with Kobe really.Lebron has been roughly as good or a better defender for 2 years. Hes a better passer(not to be confused with just getting assists). Ive heard little drama and few claims of him being difficult with teammates. Worst ive heard of Lebron was Gooden jokingly saying that in Chicago they share the ball. Then as he got the ball more he started to suck...Bulls fans hated him...and he ends up on the Spurs(5th team in 7 years) getting 8 minutes total over 2 playoff games.....anyway. Kobe is better at making difficult shots but I dont value the making of bad shots over the making of easy ones when I can rely on those shots. Not talking about a Dwight easy shot like a dunk that you cant really predict. You can give Lebron the ball...move out of his way...and he will score or get fouled at a fantastic rate. Its almost a lock.

hes the most individually dominant and unstoppable swingman ive seen since Jordan in his youth and if he isnt...Wade is. I can see someone saying Kobe is better or more skilled but not more effective.

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. Wade won it all on a team with less than Kobe had to work with. And Lebron led a finals team that had no more talent than the ones Kobe missed the playoffs with and lost in the first round. The only player aside from Bron on the Cavs 07 roster id even take on the Bulls right now(in 07 form even) is Z. Gibson when thej umper is falling but really...hes the Bulls #3 guard at best.

The Cavs team he took to the finals was simply abominable(by finals team standards). Really....would you rather have the entire 07 Cavs supporting cast or just the second best player from any finals team of the last 5 years?

Gasol
Pierce
Lewis
Parker
Howard
Billups/Ben Wallace
Shaq/Kobe(questionable by 2004)


Josh Howard is the only second option id even consider trading for their whole 07 roster...and id end up saying no just to dodge Larry Hughes. Larry Hughes managed to shoot 31 and 35% in back to back playoffs....

Lebron did work with a lottery team. And he just led another one to the most wins ever by a team with nearly that little talent to work with. Dirk didnt have a huge amount but give me Howard and terry over the entire Cavs roster. They arent even talented on defense as some claim. Ben Wallace is pushing 60 and anderson is a talented defender as is West but really...they more talented on D than the Bulls with Hinrich, Hunter, Tyrus, Deng, and Noah? More than the Bobcats were with Wallace, Emeka, and Raja?

The Cavs arent expecially good at anything but giving the ball to Lebron to win them games.

That hes done what he has wit hthose teams gives me little reason to doubt he could win with almost anything I give him to work with. A guy who can get to the basket as if nothing is in his way is always easy to build around. Give him 2 shooters and 2 bigmen who can catch and you can win games.

Lebron just seems like a far better pick to start a team...even throwing out age.[/QUOTE]

:bowdown: :cheers: Love how the morons(CantStop/Megatron, Fatal9, Alpha Wolf, etc.) can't respond to this. Awesome post.