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[quote]McHale was also the more clutch of the two.[/quote]
How many gamewinners did McHale have in his career? I am guessing not that many at all. And for those that say: well he had to play with one of the clutchest players ever in Bird.
That is true. So how do you know that McHale is clutch then? And if it isn't gamewinners then what are you using to define your clutchness?
McHale. though he was a traditional pf while Dirk is a point forward. u can't really compare the 2 since their styles are so different IMO.
[QUOTE=Fatal9]I don't particularly care for where they rank on an all-time list, but McHale was the better player. Really wish Celtics won in '85 or '87 but the team was dealing with injuries ('85 it was Bird's shooting elbow, '87 it was basically the entire team). McHale would have won the finals MVP if Celtics won in either of those years, and also had one of the best non-finals MVP winning series against Hakeem in '86.
McHale was the better scorer (probably the best half court scorer ever at his position for me), better defender and I prefer his type of offense to Dirk's. McHale's passing sometimes gets diminished because he was a "black hole" but that's because he was so damn efficient. It wasn't a skill he was lacking, can't really compare assist numbers to measure ability when one guy can score on you at will and as a result is a bit less likely to pass back out. He played on the best passing team that I've ever seen in the '86 Celtics, and did nothing to hurt their ball movement.[/QUOTE]
Good post, I actually thought McHale was a skilled passer. '86 or '87 Kevin McHale may have been better, but it's hard to compare. I go with Dirk because he was an MVP, consistent MVP candidate and he led his team to the finals with a great playoff run.
I guess it's not a fair comparison because McHale was never in the franchise player role.
If you break them down skill by skill then McHale at his peak wins, but often times, that doesn't necessarily tell who is the better player.
Dirk is the better player. But I imagine had Dirk began his career before McHale then there would be tons of posters on this board saying: How dare you compare McHale to Dirk! Dirk is easily the better player.
Right now what we have going on is good ole day syndrome. The memories of McHale is becoming embellished to prop him up when in reality he was has not been been on Dirk's level for quite a while.
The one who could actually backdown Tony Parker instead of shoot 15 foot fadeaways over him and the one who has won rings.
[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]And McHale is not a better rebounder as well. I mean if you are going to play the card of :McHale couldn't grab defensive boards because of Bird and Parrish grabbing them all.....
Then someone else can say: Dirk couldn't grab offensive boards because he wasn't camped out in the paint on offense. And he wasn't the 3rd option on offense so therefore he didn't have as many opportunities to grab offensive rebounds.[/QUOTE]
Uh, just watch them play. Dirk would never bang in the paint for offensive rebounds like McHale. Dirk can scoop up some meaningless uncontested defensive rebounds, while McHale was busy running up the court getting position in the post. Doesn't make Dirk a better rebounder, think he's averaging 10 boards on a frontline with Bird/Parish? Offensive rebounding is always a better measure of who the better rebounder is, and McHale nearly doubles Dirk's totals in some years. Not to mention McHale is a better rebounder over their careers per 36 minutes. If you think McHale was the "3rd option" in his prime (post '84) then I don't know what to tell you except that you're clueless - it was Bird, and then McHale and there really is no argument. There is also no correlation between less scoring and offensive rebounding for McHale, in fact his best offensive rebounding season came when he averaged a career high scoring average, and his second best year came when he was the #1 option offensively with Bird missing the year due to injury.
[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]How many gamewinners did McHale have in his career? I am guessing not that many at all. And for those that say: well he had to play with one of the clutchest players ever in Bird.
That is true. So how do you know that McHale is clutch then? And if it isn't gamewinners then what are you using to define your clutchness?[/QUOTE]
McHale made clutch defensive plays. He came through in the playoffs along with Bird. McHale easily would have won Finals MVP in '85 and '87 if the Celtics had won. He's also had good statlines in important games.
Game 6 against Cleveland in '92- 22 pts/6 reb and 9/12 from the field in 23 minutes off the bench
Game 7 against Cleveland in '92- 15 pts/5 reb and 6/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench
Game 3 against Charlotte in '93- 19 pts/6 reb/3 blk on 8/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench
He didn't choke under pressure.
[quote]Uh, just watch them play.[/quote]
I have watched them play.
[quote] Dirk would never bang in the paint for offensive rebounds like McHale.[/quote]
That's right. Because Dirk has responsibilitiies on the offensive end that McHale never had. Number 1 priority was to score. So therefore Dirk couldn't just hand in the paint while he watches the other number 1 option take on the defense and shoot. Then go for the rebound.
[quote]Dirk can scoop up some meaningless uncontested defensive rebounds, while McHale was busy running up the court getting position in the post. [/quote]
You are right. While McHale was trying to get position. Dirk was trying to score for his team.
[quote]Doesn't make Dirk a better rebounder, think he's averaging 10 boards on a frontline with Bird/Parish?[/quote]
But that is negated because there were more rebounds to be had. It is called PACE.
[quote]Offensive rebounding is always a better measure of who the better rebounder is, and McHale nearly doubles Dirk's totals in some years. [/quote]
Well, considering that Dirk played on a different spot on the floor than McHale and Dirk was the number 1 option for his team. It is not a coincidence that Dirk has lower offensive rebounding numbers. Let's face it, when you shoot from 15 feet out a bunch (and at times shoot a lot of 3 pointers,) your offensive rebounding won't be great.
[quote]Not to mention McHale is a better rebounder over their careers per 36 minutes.[/quote]
The difference is negligible.
McHale's rebounding per 36: 8.5
Dirk's rebounding per 36: 8.3
And that includes Dirk's rookie year in which he was a poor rebounder in the beginning. In fact, Don Nelson once said, "Dirk is the only guy he has ever seen make himself into a rebounder."
Let's take it a step further:
Rebounding percentage for their career:
McHale: 13.2%
Dirk: 13.1%
Pretty much negligible again.
But look at the playoffs:
McHale: 12.6%
Dirk: 14.7%
So while McHale has a slight edge in career... Dirk blows him away in the playoffs.
So like I was saying earlier... McHale wasn't "better" than Dirk at rebounding.
[quote]If you think McHale was the "3rd option" in his prime (post '84) then I don't know what to tell you except that you're clueless - it was Bird, and then McHale and there really is no argument.[/quote]
Well, then at best he was still the second option. And even after Bird left, he was never the number 1 guy. He was always behind someone... including Reggie Lewis.
[quote] There is also no correlation between less scoring and offensive rebounding for McHale, in fact his best offensive rebounding season came when he averaged a career high scoring average, and his second best year came when he was the #1 option offensively with Bird missing the year due to injury.[/quote]
But there is a correlation between offensive rebounding and position on the floor.
Dirk
[quote]McHale made clutch defensive plays. He came through in the playoffs along with Bird. McHale easily would have won Finals MVP in '85 and '87 if the Celtics had won. He's also had good statlines in important games.
Game 6 against Cleveland in '92- 22 pts/6 reb and 9/12 from the field in 23 minutes off the bench
Game 7 against Cleveland in '92- 15 pts/5 reb and 6/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench
Game 3 against Charlotte in '93- 19 pts/6 reb/3 blk on 8/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench
He didn't choke under pressure.[/quote]
So you are going to use 3 playoff games for his career?
You do realize that Dirk hasn't lost a Game 7 in his career, and has averaged 30/10 in those Game 7s? And to top it off he has 6 or 7 game winners in the last 5 years. The only player who has more in that time frame has been Kobe.
Not sure how anyone can say McHale was more "clutch." Dirk's clutchness gets blasted because of the one free throw miss in the Finals (which did not cost them the series btw). But in relation to McHale. He has a lot better resume in that department.
McHale in clutchness is like the guy who bats .300 for one season while Dirk is like the guy who bats .300 for most of his career.
[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]How many gamewinners did McHale have in his career? I am guessing not that many at all. And for those that say: well he had to play with one of the clutchest players ever in Bird.
That is true. So how do you know that McHale is clutch then? And if it isn't gamewinners then what are you using to define your clutchness?[/QUOTE]
Clutchness is playing great in tight and pressure situations, which McHale did much better than Nowitzki.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Dirk, McHale was great and at his best, a better scorer, but Dirk's longevity is superior and he's been a franchise player, MVP and consistent MVP candidate for years now. He really changed the power forward position.[/QUOTE]
He damn sure wouldn't have been an MVP candidate on the Celtics or even back in the 80s at all.
[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]So you are going to use 3 playoff games for his career?
You do realize that Dirk hasn't lost a Game 7 in his career, and has averaged 30/10 in those Game 7s? And to top it off he has 6 or 7 game winners in the last 5 years. The only player who has more in that time frame has been Kobe.
Not sure how anyone can say McHale was more "clutch." Dirk's clutchness gets blasted because of the one free throw miss in the Finals (which did not cost them the series btw). But in relation to McHale. He has a lot better resume in that department.
McHale in clutchness is like the guy who bats .300 for one season while Dirk is like the guy who bats .300 for most of his career.[/QUOTE]
So Just because he hasn't lose a game 7 we're gonna ignore things like the Golden state year and the Heat year? :oldlol:
[quote]Clutchness is playing great in tight and pressure situations, which McHale did much better than Nowitzki.[/quote]
Not if you go by stats or by gamewinners.
[quote]So Just because he hasn't lose a game 7 we're gonna ignore things like the Golden state year and the Heat year? [/quote]
And also all the game winners as well?
Dirk would feast in the 80s. Perimeter defense was terrible with guys sagging off like 3-4 feet off their man. Dirk would rain treys all day. Shots werent heavily contested either. All teams wanted to do was RUN N GUN. Dudes like English,Gervin, King and Dantley were droppin 30 ppg on 50+ shooting. Defense in the paint was better and games were phyiscal. Thats not Dirks game, tho. Dirk > McFail. Dirk is one of 5 guys in history to average 25/10 in the playoffs.