Question for non-religious types...(most of us I think)

Interesting article titled "The Sad State of Religion in the U.S."



[quote]“There’s no longer evidence for a need of God, even less of Christ. The so-called traditional churches look like they are dying.”

It matters who said this. If it came from Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens – the Four Horsemen of the New Apocalypse – few would accept it as an objective assessment. But the author of this quote was Pope Benedict XVI.[1]

The Pope’s candor fits well with other research sponsored by churches. When you count the people in the pews on Sunday rather than having a pollster ask whether or not they attend church, fewer than 18% attend church regularly.[2]

From 1980 to 2005 in the Southern Baptist Church, baptisms of people between eighteen and thirty four – in other words, their next generation of leaders – fell 40 percent, from 100,000 in 1980 to 60,000 in 2005.[3]

But the U.S. population grew by 27% during those 25 years, so the Baptists would have had to baptize 127,000 in 2005 just to stay even; they really fell by 52%.[4]

In 2006, the Southern Baptists – who claim almost six times more members than any other white evangelical church – made a concerted effort to baptize one million people. Not only did they fall over two-thirds short, they actually baptized even fewer than they had the year before.[5]

You might think that some faith group must have grown during the last thirty years, and you’d be right: atheists and nonbelievers more than doubled in the eleven years between 1990 and 2001, from 14 million to 29 million: from 8% of the country to 14%. There are more than twice as many atheists and nonbelievers as there are evangelical Christians.[6]

And since it’s hard to believe that all atheists/nonbelievers would be willing to confess that to pollsters, the number is probably much higher. From 2000 to 2005, church attendance fell in all fifty states.[7]

Nor is this trend a new phenomenon: American churches have not kept up with population growth in over a century.[8]

Then, to add insult to injury, when a sampling of non-Christians were asked to rate eleven groups in terms of respect, they rated evangelicals tenth. Only prostitutes ranked lower.[9]

Are believers more moral? No. When pollster George Barna – himself an evangelical – looked at seventy moral behaviors, he didn’t find any difference between the actions of those who were born-again Christians and those who weren’t. His studies and other indicators show that divorce among born-agains is as common as, or more common than, among other groups. One study showed that wives in traditional, male-dominated marriages were three times more likely to be beaten than wives in egalitarian marriages.[10]

Evangelicals constitute not 25 percent of the U.S. population – as they have claimed – but at most 7 percent, and their numbers are falling, not rising. All these numbers come from the churches themselves. (Wicker, p. 67) While evangelical women make up at least 3.5% of the population (half of 7%), they make up about 20% of the women who get abortions.[11]

“The Spirit,” as the Gospel of John says, “blows where it will.” Where is it blowing now? Adding together the data from pollsters, evangelical researchers and Pope Benedict XVI, it’s not a stretch to say the Spirit – the spirit of life and the truth that can make you more free – has settled in the land of atheists, nonbelievers, and church alumni.

[url]http://inewp.com/?p=4679[/url]
[/quote]

I thought the last three paragraphs were particularly interesting.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Of course it is their business, but doing it out of fear of the unknown is not a good reason in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

It is healthy for a man's soul, to believe in God out of fear; fear of his power, and fear of his almighty abilities. Belief from faith is expected as well, and when it comes to a belief system in such a magnificent being, faith must be part of the equation; but that doesn't exclude other reasons for belief as well (such as fear, emotion, hope, life experiences, etc).

Proverbs 1:7 - [I]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.[/I]

[B]What does the Qur'an say about Jesus?[/B]

In the Qur'an, there are many stories about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ (called 'Isa in Arabic). The Qur'an recalls his miraculous birth, his teachings, the miracles he performed by God's permission, and his life as a respected prophet of God. The Qur'an also repeatedly reminds that Jesus was a human prophet sent by God, not part of God Himself. Below are some direct quotations from the Qur'an regarding his life and teachings of Jesus.

[B]He Was Righteous[/B]
"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48).

[B]He Was a Prophet[/B]
"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).
"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).


[B]He Was a Humble Servant of God[/B]
"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

[B]His Teachings[/B]
"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65)

====================================

[B]Jesus (Isa) A.S. in Islam[/B]

Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, as God promised to preserve it till the last day for all of humankind, unlike sacred texts of other religions which have mulitple versions and are "revised" periodically. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator

[QUOTE=Legend of Josh]It is healthy for a man's soul, to believe in God out of fear; [B]fear of his power, and fear of his almighty abilities[/B]. Belief from faith is expected as well, and when it comes to a belief system in such a magnificent being, faith must be part of the equation; but that doesn't exclude other reasons for belief as well (such as fear, emotion, hope, life experiences, etc).

Proverbs 1:7 - [I]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.[/I][/QUOTE]

i'm not sure if i follow? how can you fear gods power if you don't already believe in it? you can't fear gods power first and then believe because you've already accepted that god exists and has power in the first instance. but maybe i am just misunderstanding you?

[QUOTE=zizozain]
Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, as God promised to preserve it till the last day for all of humankind, unlike sacred texts of other religions which have mulitple versions and are "revised" periodically. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator[/QUOTE]

Interesting.

What's this belief about Isa (Jesus/Yeshua) based on exactly? Seems like they kept the basic story of the Pauline Christians but tweaked it just so he wasn't the Son of God or God himself. Kept the virgin birth, Mary, even the second coming.

[QUOTE=miller-time]i'm not sure if i follow? how can you fear gods power if you don't already believe in it? you can't fear gods power first and then believe because you've already accepted that god exists and has power in the first instance. but maybe i am just misunderstanding you?[/QUOTE]
I think he is just saying it is healthy to be a "god-fearing" person...

and he is right...it is very healthy to fear God...

fear of God has saved countless lives...for alot of people it might be the only thing that keeps them from killing themselves...because life is a gift in the eye's of God in every religion, to deny that gift is a "no-no"...

Fear of God also has gotten countless of people off drugs and alcohol...

real or not, God saves lives...(yes I know "God" has also taken lives, but I believe "he" has saved many more lives than taken)

[QUOTE=ShannonElements]I don't fear God(assuming there is a God). Does this make me unhealthy?[/QUOTE]
no...

BUT, you would "LIKELY" have a better mind set if you did fear God...

likely less depressed...or happier if you are not depressed...(on average)

people who fear God (in general) are usually more content in life, more humble...ect...when times get tuff they have God to fall back on, and real or not he is there for them and does help...

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]I think he is just saying it is healthy to be a "god-fearing" person...

and he is right...it is very healthy to fear God...

fear of God has saved countless lives...for alot of people it might be the only thing that keeps them from killing themselves...because life is a gift in the eye's of God in every religion, to deny that gift is a "no-no"...

Fear of God also has gotten countless of people off drugs and alcohol...

real or not, God saves lives...(yes I know "God" has also taken lives, but I believe "he" has saved many more lives than taken)[/QUOTE]

I think it would be healthier if people changed their lives for the better for the better reasons (benefit their own health/sanity, their family's well-being, etc.)

[QUOTE=Jailblazers7]I think it would be healthier if people changed their lives for the better for the better reasons (benefit their own health/sanity, their family's well-being, etc.)[/QUOTE]
some do...but alot for alot of people it takes "God" to get them to go the extra step...

It has also been shown that athiests are much more likely to committ suicide than the religious...and part of that is the fear of God keeping them going...

fearing God is healthy in general...I have talked about this before many times but it is healthy to the point that alot of mental doctors use it on their patients..."God" is the entire foundation of "AA"...if you ever go to a drug rehab you will also see the doctors there talking alot about God...

I am not saying you can't be mentally healthy and athiest btw...there are plenty of athiests that happy, healthy, ect...

just talking "in genral"

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]some do...but alot for alot of people it takes "God" to get them to go the extra step...

It has also been shown that athiests are much more likely to committ suicide than the religious...and part of that is the fear of God keeping them going...

fearing God is healthy in general...I have talked about this before many times but it is healthy to the point that alot of mental doctors use it on their patients..."God" is the entire foundation of "AA"...if you ever go to a drug rehab you will also see the doctors there talking alot about God...

I am not saying you can't be mentally healthy and athiest btw...there are plenty of athiests that happy, healthy, ect...

just talking "in genral"[/QUOTE]

I actually got out of a series of alcohol related classes (serving a sentence for underage drinking) and have seen my brother go through AA and I know what you mean by God being a centerpiece in recovery.

It just kind of confuses me how the idea of something (not a real person or loved one) is what gets people to take that extra step.

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]I think he is just saying it is healthy to be a "god-fearing" person...

and he is right...it is very healthy to fear God...

fear of God has saved countless lives...for alot of people it might be the only thing that keeps them from killing themselves...because life is a gift in the eye's of God in every religion, to deny that gift is a "no-no"...

Fear of God also has gotten countless of people off drugs and alcohol...

real or not, God saves lives...(yes I know "God" has also taken lives, but I believe "he" has saved many more lives than taken)[/QUOTE]

it is better to fix the problem at the source then to slap on a god bandaid.

[QUOTE=miller-time]it is better to fix the problem at the source then to slap on a god bandaid.[/QUOTE]
but that is fixing it at the source (depending what yo uare talking about)

bandaid = lots of pills

fixing it "the real way" = exercise/healthy diet/spirituality

if we are just talking about depression and other mental issues that that are similiar...

"god" isn't a bandaid...he really can heal...prevent suicide, ect...save lives

[IMG]http://www.mybesthealthportal.net/images/stories/RX_Drugs/antidepressants.jpg[/IMG]


^^^ THAT is the bandaid...not "God"

[QUOTE=-playmaker-][IMG]http://www.mybesthealthportal.net/images/stories/RX_Drugs/antidepressants.jpg[/IMG]


^^^ THAT is the bandaid...not "God"[/QUOTE]



[QUOTE]if we are just talking about depression and other mental issues that that are similiar...

"god" isn't a bandaid...he really can heal...prevent suicide, ect...save lives[/QUOTE]





You are kidding with this shit right? Pills are only a bandaid for depression and mental issues whereas "God" can heal them? Where was "God" healing these issues a hundred years ago before the medical profession started to come to grips with the realities of mental health? Where was he when people with mental disorders were ostracized, beat up, and thrown out of their communities? Those medications in many situations have given people the means to live productive and healthy lives, and in many of those same cases, they grew up in a church setting where the "Christian Psychologist" painted the child's behavior as something that could be fixed by a mere change in the disciplinary structure of the household.

In many ways churches have been a hindrance in people finding ways to seek help with their mental problems.

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]but that is fixing it at the source (depending what yo uare talking about)

bandaid = lots of pills

fixing it "the real way" = exercise/healthy diet/spirituality

if we are just talking about depression and other mental issues that that are similiar...

"god" isn't a bandaid...he really can heal...prevent suicide, ect...save lives[/QUOTE]

its not fixing the problem, it is providing a false reality that the individual can escape into.

lots of pills means nothing, it depends what type of depression you have. feeling depressed is not the same as having depression. there are many different types of the disorder and obviously introducing people to god is not going to be effective for all of them. most people with (unipolar) depression are treated with cognitive behavioural therapy before they are introduced to drug treatments. In any mental health case drug treatment is usually the last resort (except for ECT and surgury obviously).

but we've had this discussion before. and my point last time was that during war sucide rates decrease. if a country got together and said lets go to war to combat suicide you wouldn't say that is fixing the problem would you? it does increase self worth and solidarity, the same things god increases, so what is the difference? by your logic they are both fixers of the problem.

obviously war is an extreme example and i don't mean to say they are equal concepts in combatting suicide and depression. but they both work on the same problems. are they fixes for the problem or bandaids?

which religion then? protestants have higher suicide rates than catholics so it might be safer to introduce them to catholicism because obviously it is better at fixing the problem. or is it bandaiding the problem, because you know... god isn't actually a real part of any of this it is just that false perception of reality i mentioned earlier. edit - if god were a real solution then shouldn't all believers have statistically the same rates of suicide? they don't so the problem is obviously psychosocial, and the psychosocial cause is what needs to be fixed not painted over with a belief in god.