Gary Payton has become insanely underrated

[QUOTE=GP_20]
I don't get it, did you pass 3rd grade? Even a 3rd grader would be able to see the argument for Payton is clearly stronger. Or are you that ignorant? Which is it?


I'm not saying this is some kind of proof, but even someone illiterate would see Payton has a much stronger case. In fact, what is the case for Pippen? :oldlol:



.[/QUOTE]

you don't have a point.
your only argument is, that glove had worse teammates.
but the bulls were the best defensive team, how is it far fetched to say that they also had the best individual defender?

he won the dpoy because the media types voted him. fine. the same people who voted for nash over shaq, kg and duncan.
but you can't at any point from 91-98 say he was clearly a better defender than pippen or deke.
what's your argument over deke's 4.5 bpg? team defense? i'll play the teammate card, it will go nowhere.

but i'll leave you with crusade to defend payton over everybody.

[QUOTE=Teanett]you don't have a point.
your only argument is, that glove had worse teammates.
but the bulls were the best defensive team, how is it far fetched to say that they also had the best individual defender?

he won the dpoy because the media types voted him. fine. the same people who voted for nash over shaq, kg and duncan.
but you can't at any point from 91-98 say he was clearly a better defender than pippen or deke.
what's your argument over deke's 4.5 bpg? team defense? i'll play the teammate card, it will go nowhere.

but i'll leave you with crusade to defend payton over everybody.[/QUOTE]
:roll:

Gary Payton had [B]FAR WORSE[/B] defensive teammates. Yet their team defenses were [B]virtually equal[/B]. (0.3ppg)

Do you understand that? If the Bulls were FAR better on defense (at least 5ppg) then I wouldn't have a case. But since Payton by himself was able to take his team to a defensive level to the equals of Rodman/Jordan/Pippen, this means something.


Seriously, this is just hilarious. :oldlol:
You remind of me of 1st grade. But even I wasn't this stupid in 1st grade.



Once again ignore all the facts, stats, opinions, judgements, and everything. You have Pippen. You can make Kobe the DPOY last year as well. The case is just as strong as Pippen's in 96. Maybe even stronger.


What's your guys's argument?
[I]
"Because because I thought so..."

[/I]

:facepalm

[QUOTE=Dro]Man..some of u are either dumb, young or both, lol..........I don't have time to type out a long response but I'll just say I agree pretty much with GP20.....Some of you are seriously TRIPPING taking Nash over GP...I'm no GP fan by any stretch but I'm 30 years old so I remember watching PLENTY of Gary Payton and whoever said Jordan outplayed him in the 96 you are LYING or did not watch the series....I don't care about numbers, go WATCH IT AND GIVE IT THE SEE AND EYE TEST....From the time Karl put GP on MJ which was game 3 I'm pretty sure, though I don't remember at what point in the game, he AT LEAST played him evenly and I DISTINCTLY remember during that year, when I was on message boards, most people including the analysys were siding with GP....Shawn Kemp easily wins MVP if the Sonics win that series..........smh[/QUOTE]

you've succumbed to the myth.
through the last 4 games jordan averaged 26 to payton's 21.
how is that even?

[QUOTE=Teanett]you've succumbed to the myth.
through the last 4 games jordan averaged 26 to payton's 21.
how is that even?[/QUOTE]

Mid-way Game 3 Payton started guarding him. Game 4 Jordan also started guarding Payton (Harper went down with an injury). So they were matched Head to Head


Games 4-6

Michael Jordan
[B]22/60 36.7% 23.7ppg 5.3rpg 3.7apg 3.7tpg[/B]

Gary Payton
[B]21/43 48.9% 21.0ppg 5.3rpg 8.0apg 2.7tpg[/B]


Who outplayed who the 2nd half the series as they went at each other head to head?



[I]
[B]Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series[/B][/I]
-Bill Walton


All I'm gonna say is this, Jordan is lucky Payton wasn't guarding him the whole series. The 1996 DPOY was just sick.

And prior to the series, does anyone remember how bad Payton dominated John Stockton? Both these guys were around the same level coming in, All-Stars and All-NBA 2nd team members.


But the domination Payton exhibited on Stockton in the WCF was the PG equivalence to the dominance Hakeem displayed on Robinson in the WCF a year ago. It's this series that puts Hakeem over Robinson for good, and Payton over Stockton for good.


Here is how it went:

[B]
Game 1:[/B]
John Stockton
2/10 4pts 7ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
8/16 21pts 7ast 4reb 3stl


[B]Game 2:[/B]
John Stockton
5/8 11pts 7ast 0reb 1stl

Gary Payton
7/16 18pts 8ast 2reb 4stl


[B]Game 3:[/B]
John Stockton
2/9 7pts 6ast 2reb 0stl

Gary Payton
11/21 25pts 3ast 6reb 1stl

[B]
Game 4:[/B]
John Stockton
3/9 7pts 8ast 3reb 3stl

Gary Payton
7/17 19pts 6ast 4reb 0stl


Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl

Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl


[B]Game 6:[/B]
John Stockton
5/11 14pts 12ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
3/7 10pts 7ast 9reb 0stl


[B]Game 7:[/B]
John Stockton
9/15 22pts 7ast 8reb 4stl

Gary Payton
9/17 21pts 5ast 6reb 1stl



TOTALS

[SIZE="4"][B]John Stockton
[/SIZE]
27/68 39.7% 9.8ppg 7.6apg 3.0rpg 1.7spg 3-4[/B]
[B]
[SIZE="4"]
Gary Payton
[/SIZE]
56/111 50.4% 20.7ppg 6.0apg 5.1rpg 1.6spg 4-3[/B]





The 15/11/53% shooting Stockton, was shut down. While Payton scored and shot at even a higher % than his season numbers. No excuse for Stockton here, Payton outplaying Stockton cost the Jazz a close series. He was doubled in the scoring department and even assists was close.
And both were looking for their 1st Final's App. at the time, so it was a very important series for both .

But yes that's just how it is with Payton. A PG you just don't want to face. He makes it very difficult for you to guard him with a very well rounded offensive game, where he can score in multiple ways and also a good passer/playmaker. And then on the other end you have to try and get your offensive game going against the greatest defensive PG of all-time.

It's not surprising that even HOFs like Stockton and Jordan have been outplayed head to head the worse in series against Gary Payton. Just a very difficult task to go against such a great PG.

[QUOTE=Premeditated]Payton is extremely underrated. Good lockdown defender. He completely tormented Jordan during the 96 Finals. lol @ getting lock down by a point guard.[/QUOTE]

The same PG who locked down Kobe from 2000-2002. Even Kobe said that nobody defended him better than a point guard (Eric Snow) in 2001-02 the same Snow that shut down Kobe in the 2001 NBA Finals.

PG's can lock down elite SG's. It happens.

[QUOTE=GP_20]I wouldn't quite agree he dominated the series.


Coming into the Finals, Jordan was averaging 36.3ppg, and had scored 30 or more points, 14 out of 17 games. Really amazing and what you expect from the GOAT in the biggest stage of the game. That's what you call dominating.

Then he met the [B]1996 DPOY Gary Payton[/B].

George Karl started the series out by playing Payton on Pippen, and throwing many double teams on Jordan. Jordan did pretty good against that, averaged 29ppg on 45%. Mid-way Game 3 Karl finally switched Payton to guard Jordan. For the rest of the series, Jordan was neutralized. Here were his #s for the rest of the series with Payton as the primary defender

[B]Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg[/B]

Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.

His overall series numbers aren't much more impressive, and either way, I wouldn't call any of that dominating. But yes, Karl probably regret not putting Payton on Jordan from the start. Here is what NBA analyst Walton had to say about that


[B][I]Seattle coach George Karl would "rue" the decision to "hide [Payton] from 'the king'" in the early games of the series[/I][/B]




In fact, later on Harper got injured and Jordan had to guard Payton as well. And honestly, Payton outplayed him in their head to head matchups.

Bill Walton himself said
[B][I]


Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series[/I][/B]
-Bill Walton



Quite an accomplishment to outplay the GOAT in his prime in the NBA Finals head to head
:applause:[/QUOTE]
Jordan was definetly not in his prime during the 2nd 3-peat.

[QUOTE=GP_20]But yes that's just how it is with Payton. A PG you just don't want to face. He makes it very difficult for you to guard him with a very well rounded offensive game, where he can score in multiple ways and also a good passer/playmaker. And then on the other end you have to try and get your offensive game going against the greatest defensive PG of all-time.

It's not surprising that even HOFs like Stockton and Jordan have been outplayed head to head the worse in series against Gary Payton. Just a very difficult task to go against such a great PG.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree anymore with the statement. Peyton was under-rated.

[QUOTE=GP_20]And prior to the series, does anyone remember how bad Payton dominated John Stockton? Both these guys were around the same level coming in, All-Stars and All-NBA 2nd team members.


But the domination Payton exhibited on Stockton in the WCF was the PG equivalence to the dominance Hakeem displayed on Robinson in the WCF a year ago. It's this series that puts Hakeem over Robinson for good, and Payton over Stockton for good.


Here is how it went:

[B]
Game 1:[/B]
John Stockton
2/10 4pts 7ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
8/16 21pts 7ast 4reb 3stl


[B]Game 2:[/B]
John Stockton
5/8 11pts 7ast 0reb 1stl

Gary Payton
7/16 18pts 8ast 2reb 4stl


[B]Game 3:[/B]
John Stockton
2/9 7pts 6ast 2reb 0stl

Gary Payton
11/21 25pts 3ast 6reb 1stl

[B]
Game 4:[/B]
John Stockton
3/9 7pts 8ast 3reb 3stl

Gary Payton
7/17 19pts 6ast 4reb 0stl


Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl

Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl


[B]Game 6:[/B]
John Stockton
5/11 14pts 12ast 2reb 1stl

Gary Payton
3/7 10pts 7ast 9reb 0stl


[B]Game 7:[/B]
John Stockton
9/15 22pts 7ast 8reb 4stl

Gary Payton
9/17 21pts 5ast 6reb 1stl



TOTALS

[SIZE="4"][B]John Stockton
[/SIZE]
27/68 39.7% 9.8ppg 7.6apg 3.0rpg 1.7spg 3-4[/B]
[B]
[SIZE="4"]
Gary Payton
[/SIZE]
56/111 50.4% 20.7ppg 6.0apg 5.1rpg 1.6spg 4-3[/B]





The 15/11/53% shooting Stockton, was shut down. While Payton scored and shot at even a higher % than his season numbers. No excuse for Stockton here, Payton outplaying Stockton cost the Jazz a close series. He was doubled in the scoring department and even assists was close.
And both were looking for their 1st Final's App. at the time, so it was a very important series for both .[/QUOTE]
Why do you keep comparing a past his prime John Stockton to a peak Gary Payton? Especially since he got dominated in game 7 anyway. It's more accurate to say it was Hakeem dominating Robinson if it was 94 Hakeem vs 97 Robinson.
And why do you keep saying Seattle had anywhere near the best defense in 96?
Sonics-
102 defensive rating (2nd)
96.7 points allowed (8th)
playoffs defensive rating 104 (7th)
Bulls-
102 defensive rating (1st)
93 points allowed (3rd)
99 playoff defensive rating (1st)
They are the best in absolutely no defensive category. Not close.

[QUOTE=magnax1]Why do you keep comparing a past his prime John Stockton to a peak Gary Payton? Especially since he got dominated in game 7 anyway. It's more accurate to say it was Hakeem dominating Robinson if it was 94 Hakeem vs 97 Robinson.
And why do you keep saying Seattle had anywhere near the best defense in 96?
Sonics-
102 defensive rating (2nd)
96.7 points allowed (8th)
playoffs defensive rating 104 (7th)
Bulls-
102 defensive rating (1st)
93 points allowed (3rd)
99 playoff defensive rating (1st)
They are the best in absolutely no defensive category. Not close.[/QUOTE]

Past prime Stockton? Based on what? Don't say age because Stockton aged like wine, kind of like Steve Nash. Both were very much in their primes, and Stockton was just 33. Kidd, Nash, and even Payton were in their "primes" at that age. Are you saying Stockton, known for his longevity, fell faster than all 3 of them?

In fact, he was All-NBA 2nd, and putting upt 15/11 on 54%. Just last year he was considered the best PG in the NBA at 15/12. There was not a huge drop at all. Stop trying to make excuses here.

I agree he wasn't at his peak, but neither was Payton. His best years were yet to come.

Bottom-line, both were at around the same level, All-NBA 2nd.


But the matchup [B]wasn't even close[/B]. It was like watching Smush vs. Tony Parker. The difference between how they played was that great. Not what you would expect out of 2 HOF PGs in their Prime at around the same level (All-NBA 2nd)

That's just how bad Payton dominated John Stockton.

And LOL at the Game 7 remark. 1st of all, the stats were close but Payton came out with the W. 2nd of all, there would have been no Game 7 if Stockton hadn't been outplayed so bad. Stockton being dominated by Payton cost the Jazz the series. Malone did his part, but Prime Payton was just so much better than Prime Stockton here.




Defensive Rating (Points Allowed per 100 possessions) is the greatest indicator of a team's defense. Obviously Seattle was up-tempo so they would allow more points overall, and playoffs is what 4 opponents lol?
Both not good indicators.


I said Seattle was the 2nd best team on defense that year, and they were according to the best measure. That's all. And virtually tied with 1st (0.3ppg away), with 1st being Jordan/Rodman/Pippen. Payton though himself took his team to that level.


:applause:

[QUOTE]Past prime Stockton? Based on what? Don't say age because Stockton aged like wine, kind of like Steve Nash. Both were very much in their primes, and Stockton was just 33. Kidd, Nash, and even Payton were in their "primes" at that age. Are you saying Stockton, known for his longevity, fell faster than all 3 of them?[/QUOTE]

In fact, he was All-NBA 2nd, and putting upt 15/11 on 54%. Just last year he was considered the best PG in the NBA at 15/12. There was not a huge drop at all. Stop trying to make excuses here. [/QUOTE]
How about based on statistics, or watching a shitload of his games over the years. He'd gone from 17-14 and 3 steals to 15-11 with 2 steals. Is that not an obvious decline? On top of that he wasn't a very good man to man defender at that point, and wasn't near as good of a team defender which was what he was great at on defense. Mostly because he didn't have near the stamina, he couldn't run on all cylinders for 40 minutes.
And was Kareem in his prime at 33? Just because you're known for longevity doesn't mean you're in your prime into your mid 30's.
I[QUOTE] agree he wasn't at his peak, but neither was Payton. His best years were yet to come. [/QUOTE]
96 was definitely Payton's best year. The only change he would go through the next 5 years is playing more minutes, taking worse shots, and slowly becoming a worse defender.

[QUOTE]Bottom-line, both were at around the same level, All-NBA 2nd.[/QUOTE]
No, Payton was better in 96, but it's a stupid comparison because Stockton wasn't in his prime.

[QUOTE]But the matchup [B]wasn't even close[/B]. [B]It was like watching Smush vs. Tony Parker.[/B] The difference between how they played was that great. Not what you would expect out of 2 HOF PGs in their Prime at around the same level (All-NBA 2nd)[/QUOTE]
Exaggeration of the century. First off, Stockton outplayed Payton in the 7th game by a pretty large margin, and Payton was playing 46 minutes a game in that series, and still [I]barely[/I] met his season average. That's what you call dominating?


[QUOTE]And LOL at the Game 7 remark. 1st of all, the stats were close but Payton came out with the W. 2nd of all, there would have been no Game 7 if Stockton hadn't been outplayed so bad. Stockton being dominated by Payton cost the Jazz the series. Malone did his part, but Prime Payton was just so much better than Prime Stockton here.
[/QUOTE]
Stockton
22-8-7 4 steals 3 turnovers
Payton
19-4-7 2 steals 5 turnovers



[QUOTE]Defensive Rating (Points Allowed per 100 possessions) is the greatest indicator of a team's defense. Obviously Seattle was up-tempo so they would allow more points overall, and playoffs is what 4 opponents lol?
Both not good indicators.[/QUOTE]
Either way, They weren't as good as the bulls, and Payton had two good perimeter defenders in Hawkins and McMillan, and Beyond that, they weren't near as good on defense in the playoffs, where it really matters.

[QUOTE=magnax1]
How about based on statistics, or watching a shitload of his games over the years. He'd gone from 17-14 and 3 steals to 15-11 with 2 steals. Is that not an obvious decline? On top of that he wasn't a very good man to man defender at that point, and wasn't near as good of a team defender which was what he was great at on defense. Mostly because he didn't have near the stamina, he couldn't run on all cylinders for 40 minutes.
And was Kareem in his prime at 33? Just because you're known for longevity doesn't mean you're in your prime into your mid 30's. [/quote]

The league was more up-tempo back then, teams scored more, and statistics overall were inflated. So it's no surprise that Stockton averaged more than.

But I think you are mixing prime and peak. I agree he wasn't in his PEAK in 96. But he was still good enough to be called in his prime. Primes for players last about 10-15 years depending on the player, peaks are more 2-4 years.

96 still was Stockton's prime, but not peak. And once again this is obvious. Even Payton was in his prime (not peak) at age 33.

Though some would argue that 95-97 was his peak, including a poster named G.O.A.T. and others as well.


[QUOTE]


96 was definitely Payton's best year. The only change he would go through the next 5 years is playing more minutes, taking worse shots, and slowly becoming a worse defender. [/QUOTE]

It was arguably his defensive peak, but Payton actually did get better over the years. He became a better playmaker and overall scorer as his shot got better.

[QUOTE]
No, Payton was better in 96, but it's a stupid comparison because Stockton wasn't in his prime.[/QUOTE]

Once again, NEITHER were in their peaks. But both were in their primes. Primes last 10-15 years. Peaks last 2-4. I'd say Payton's peak was like 98-02, while Stockton's was probably late 80s to early 90s. But they were both in their primes.


[QUOTE]
Exaggeration of the century. First off, Stockton outplayed Payton in the 7th game by a pretty large margin, and Payton was playing 46 minutes a game in that series, and still [I]barely[/I] met his season average. That's what you call dominating?[/QUOTE]

:roll:
Payton played 42mpg. And his efficiency and overall scoring was higher as he abused Stockton. But the main story is his defense. Stockton, 9.8ppg on under 40% shooting, with his assists very low as well. [B]Completely shut down and dominated. [/B]

[QUOTE]

Stockton
22-8-7 4 steals 3 turnovers ]
Payton
19-4-7 2 steals 5 turnovers
[/QUOTE]

This is where I know you are trolling. You called THAT domination, when their stats were nearly identical But you are asking me is THIS domination?
[QUOTE]
Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl

Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl[/QUOTE]
:facepalm

^^^^

I've never seen a HOF PG in his prime get outplayed Head to Head in the playoffs as much as Stockton did here. Please someone prove me wrong.




[quote]

Either way, They weren't as good as the bulls, and Payton had two good perimeter defenders in Hawkins and McMillan, and Beyond that, they weren't near as good on defense in the playoffs, where it really matters.[/QUOTE]

Do you even have a brain? Playoffs you face FOUR TEAMS. And the Sonics faced some of the best offenses in the league (Houston/Utah/Chicago). Don't you that skews the results




Please practice LOGIC





And you've ignored that since they both were All-Star PGs, and All-NBA 2nd team members, we should've seen a close matchup. But it ended up being like Brevin Knight vs. Tony Parker instead (this one better ?)
[QUOTE]
John Stockton

27/68 39.7% 9.8ppg 7.6apg 3.0rpg 1.7spg 3-4


Gary Payton

56/111 50.4% 20.7ppg 6.0apg 5.1rpg 1.6spg 4-3
[/QUOTE]

Yeah about what you would except seeing Brevin Knight vs. Tony Parker. Not seeing 2 HOF PGs in their primes.


Stockton being dominated so bad against Payton cost hist team the biggest series of his life.



And just like Hakeem > Robinson because of the 95 Series, Payton > Stockton because of the 96 series.

As far as the thread goes, 1st of all great thread D.J. :applause:



But as we can see in this thread, there are only a few that don't think he is underrated. The vast majority agree he is underrated. The few that don't, and I'm being completely frank here, are a little messed up in the head. I don't know if you have been reading this thread and these guy's arguments post for post, but if you have, you would know what I'm talking about. I'm mainly referring to magnax and teannet. If they want to act and believe in stupid, they can continue to doing so. But anyone with any rationality just has to do this :facepalm

[QUOTE]Do you even have a brain? Playoffs you face FOUR TEAMS. And the Sonics faced some of the best offenses in the league (Houston/Utah/Chicago). Don't you that skews the results




Please practice LOGIC[/QUOTE]
You claim to practice logic, but center your whole argument around one series, but on the other side, completely ignore the dropoff of the Sonics during the playoffs. How about you practice logic and compare Stockton vs Payton during their careers? Or how about looking at their stats so that it encompasses something more then one matchup?
Really, you're one of the most pointless people to argue with on here. Every time I point out something, all you do is go back and say "But Payton played better then Stockton in 96" Well no duh, he was in his best year (or at least one of since you contest that) and Stockton was 5+ years removed from his best year. Then you say stuff like "prime is 15 years long" when that would basically count all but 2 or 3 years of Payton's career, and 5 of Stockton's.
On top of that you continue to say that Payton better then Kobe, which is blatantly idiotic. I should just realize you're a big Payton Homer and leave you alone, but for some reason I don't.