Defense vs. Offense

[QUOTE=SCdac]that's probably not true.

Everybody knows Dirk is a super star and one of the best scorers in the league, but all things being equal (as in, the teams they play for), Dwight probably has more "value", and this is something GM's thought going into the 10-11 season... and I don't think it's all about being younger, either.

I'm not saying "put Howard on the Mavs and they'd do better", I'm saying, your idea of what you think others value is... off.

This is from the 2010-2011 NBA GM survey:

Who will win the 2010-11 MVP?

1. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City 66.7%
2. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 25.9%
Also receiving votes:
[B]Dwight Howard, Orlando[/B]; LeBron James, Miami
- Last year: LeBron James 69.0%

If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?

1. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City 55.6%
2. LeBron James, Miami 25.9%
3. Kobe Bryant, Lakers; [B]Dwight Howard, Magic 7.4%[/B]
5. Dwyane Wade, Miami 3.7%
- Last year: LeBron James 78.6%

Which player forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments [in the here and now]?

1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers 35.7%
2. LeBron James, Miami 28.6%
[B]3. Dwight Howard, Orlando 17.9%[/B]
4. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City 10.7%
Also receiving votes:
Chris Paul, New Orleans; Dwyane Wade, Miami
- Last year: LeBron James 39.3%

2010-2011 end of the season MVP voting:

1. Derrick Rose
[B]2. Dwight Howard (DPOY, All-NBA 1st team, All-NBA Defense 1st team)[/B]
3. Lebron James
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Kevin Durant
6. Dirk Nowitzki (All-NBA 2nd team)[/QUOTE]

I meant after watching the season play out. Not before the season. After watching last year play out...which we all did. I bet most would take Dirk over Howard....for last year. Not for the future or anything.

But that really isn't the point. Howard was definitely better this year than he was in 09. Dirk was probably at his best overall as a player in 09. Take a poll after the 09 season? Howard wins it for all the reasons I think Dirk would get the nod after this year.

The point is simple. If you gave me the choice between Howard and Dirk to build a team around to make a run at the title at the start of the playoffs. I'd take Dirk. I have no issue with somebody taking Howard though. But its debatable. Its not like Dirk is way better than Howard or vice versa.

And that pretty much destroys 97 Bulls argument right there. How could it be debatable if defense is more important? Doesn't make any type of sense logically speaking.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]You asked me a question and I answered it. If you would've asked me who is the consensus best between whoever, then id answer accordingly.

Like I've said before, how can you say whose better? The kobe, magics, jordans.... they had the best talent in the league around them. I just don't see how anyone of that caliber and that talent couldn't win with similar talent. I just don't see how or why if you don't replace a raw kenyon martin and a young richard jefferson with let's say prime shawn kemp and prime gerald wallace along with an upgrade at center, the nets don't win at least one championship.

Even with pippen. Just upgrading that 94 team wiith mitch richmond in my opinion gets them over the top. They lost iin 7 to the knicks who lost in 7 to the eventual champion rockets.

The payton led soncis lost to arguably the greatest team ever.

On the other end of the spectrum. Kobe was able to shoot low 40% as well as dirk and they get all this pub? THEY HAD THE BEST TEAM. That's all I've ever tried to say. They won not because they themselves were really any better than other players, they just had the best team. I'm still waiting for kobe to will a team to a championship.[/QUOTE]

And this is where we disagree.

It boils down to Pippen ultimately for you. He's the best example of this. A player that can defend 4 positions. Probably the best perimeter defender all things considered ever.

You think he's better than guys like Dirk, Magic, and Kobe. I could not disagree more. We've been over this time and time again. Neither one of us will budge.

I will say though, that if popular opinion is such a big part of your arguments...i don't understand the logic of supporting Pippen over the like of Kobe and Magic. Nobody would agree with you. Can't have it both ways.

He thinks Pippen is better than Magic?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

another example. barkley vs pippen.

i think barkely was clearly the superior player. who was better in your opinion?

[QUOTE=knicksman]you can also say with defensive players. what has mutombo, mourning, howard done? Or if jordan, hakeem,duncan, were never great offensive players, do you think they have won. Why cant chandler win 50+ wins in charlotte while dirk can win 50+ every season. You need both but when it comes to skills, it is easier to play defense thats why they can be gotten in the 2nd round. which makes offensive players harder to acquire, so ill go with offense..[/QUOTE]
Again, nobody wins games and nobody loses games on their own. Dirk has routinely had the best talent around him on a yearly basis.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Again, nobody wins games and nobody loses games on their own. Dirk has routinely had the best talent around him on a yearly basis.[/QUOTE]

he's had good talent...hardly the best talent. in fact, Dirk has never had the best supporting cast in the league.

LOL...at best talent on a yearly basis. what a joke.

Generally I would take an elite defensive center. But there are exceptions on both sides.

Obviously I'd take Mike over Dikembe but I'd like to take like a Duncan over Kobe.

My philosophy on the game isn't necessarily offense v defense, it's more rebounds. I'm concerned with rebounds I believe it's the most important facet. So if I have a big body that can lock-down the paint, alter shots, and devour rebounds I would tend to lean towards that type of player.

But they'd have to be able to be efficient on the offense. Same for my great offensive players, they'd be at least decent two ways.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Again, nobody wins games and nobody loses games on their own. Dirk has routinely had the best talent around him on a yearly basis.[/QUOTE]

yes but best players still has huge impact on the game. Maybe you just think that coz theyre winning more compared to ben in chicago or chandler before dallas. If dirk didnt win 50+, you would say he had bad supporting casts.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And this is where we disagree.

It boils down to Pippen ultimately for you. He's the best example of this. A player that can defend 4 positions. Probably the best perimeter defender all things considered ever.

You think he's better than guys like Dirk, Magic, and Kobe. I could not disagree more. We've been over this time and time again. Neither one of us will budge.

I will say though, that if popular opinion is such a big part of your arguments...i don't understand the logic of supporting Pippen over the like of Kobe and Magic. Nobody would agree with you. Can't have it both ways.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't boil down to pippen. You want to believe that. I'm not trying to get into another pippen vs whoever debate with you. I've stated my case as to why I feel the way I di with pippen. Would I rank him over kobe, magic etc? No its an unfortunate part of sports. He just dint accomplish enough on his own outside of jordans shadow. But considering that in the two years he had out of jordans shadow, 3rd in the mvp voting in 94 and 2nd in dpoy voting in 95. Id say given 5 years on his own or if jordan never comes back and the bulls do build around him he could've won an mvp and a dpoy award as well as a championship. He was damn close.

[QUOTE=knicksman]yes but best players still has huge impact on the game. Maybe you just think that coz theyre winning more compared to ben in chicago or chandler before dallas. If dirk didnt win 50+, you would say he had bad supporting casts.[/QUOTE]
First, I believe wallace is overrated. Second, I honestly believe that if a team can't win without a certain players like the mavs with chandler, then he deserves full credit for his role on the team.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]It doesn't boil down to pippen. You want to believe that. I'm not trying to get into another pippen vs whoever debate with you. I've stated my case as to why I feel the way I di with pippen. Would I rank him over kobe, magic etc? No its an unfortunate part of sports. He just dint accomplish enough on his own outside of jordans shadow. But considering that in the two years he had out of jordans shadow, 3rd in the mvp voting in 94 and 2nd in dpoy voting in 95. Id say given 5 years on his own or if jordan never comes back and the bulls do build around him he could've won an mvp and a dpoy award as well as a championship. He was damn close.[/QUOTE]

its not about ranking...its about which player you feel is better for this.

and it does boil down to pippen. he's the perfect example for this scenario. how many other players out there all time can guard 4 positions as well as pippen? i can't think of any really. rodman in his younger days. bobby jones. you said you didn't want to talk about centers because they only example you could come up with was bill russell.

so it sounds like this is just in theory but when asked to give examples you really can't.

magic vs pippen or barkley vs pippen is pretty much the perfect debate for this. dirk vs howard is good as well, but you want that to be about stuff that really isn't relevant.

barkley played little to no defense. pippen is one of the best defensive players of all time. it fits the hypothetical. who do you think was the better player. forget that ranking non sense. just tell me who you think the better player was. you have to start a team and you get to pick.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]another example. barkley vs pippen.

i think barkely was clearly the superior player. who was better in your opinion?[/QUOTE]
You know... I agree that barkley was more talented than pippen. It was barkleys mindset and bad work ethic as well as his approach to defense.

[QUOTE=Odinn]It depends on defensive player's offensive impact.

If we are talking about something like Carmelo Anthony vs. Dennis Rodman/Ben Wallace, without a doubt it's Carmelo.[/QUOTE]
Really? Your a Spurs fan. Do you remember what happened in 95 when dennis rodman missed the first few months of the season? The spurs went 7-9. When he came back the spurs went 40-9 in the games he played in.

The following year, he joined the bulls and they procede to set the record for mosst wins in a season and win a championship.

If this isn't impact, I don't know what is

[QUOTE=97 bulls]First, I believe wallace is overrated. Second, I honestly believe that if a team can't win without a certain players like the mavs with chandler, then he deserves full credit for his role on the team.[/QUOTE]

but that doesnt mean that hes more impactful than dirk.

That made me think. Regarding Dirk vs Chandler.

Did Chandler has simply less impact than Dirk or did he has different but equal impact?