Dirk is above KG in the all-time list

[QUOTE=FF1]% have to come into play at some point. Ty Lawson can take every shot in a game and have 31 points on horrible shooting, while Dirk scores 31 on 60% shooting. People are going to say Dirk was the better scorer. It's not as black and white as "however many points are in the boxscore".[/QUOTE]

Seriously, if a player puts pressure on a defense for 48 minutes and 95 games by insistent attack and he gets to the finals he's done what is asked for him. I just don't think its fair if you took the first game to the last, lets say game 95 is their last game in the finals (or game 83 is the first in the playoffs) and we compared Dirks best year to Iverson's or Kobe's better years, we would see that AI/Kobe scored more than Dirk in likely 80 games. In no other sport would anybody consider the Dirk scorer better. It's not fathomable.

[QUOTE=FF1]You didn't say anything about the PS except "He's not as good in the PS". Not really a big argument there.

Over their career, Dirk has a higher PPG. Over 5 prime seasons Kobe has a few points higher on 2+% less efficiency. Their career highs are the same.[/QUOTE]

Since when are 7 footers supposed to be shooting the same percentage as shooting guards???

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Kobe has more 40+ point games. He has more 30+ point games.

His averages are way higher. He has about 7 post-seasons with higher averages than Dirk's absolute best.

Then he crushes Dork in the RS.

Dork isn't close.[/QUOTE]

You originally responded to a post I made about their post season numbers. This is the 2nd time I've pointed that out to you. Stop coming at me with regular season numbers, because I never said Dirk was a better regular season scorer.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Seriously, if a player puts pressure on a defense for 48 minutes and 95 games by insistent attack and he gets to the finals he's done what is asked for him. I just don't think its fair if you took the first game to the last, lets say game 95 is their last game in the finals (or game 83 is the first in the playoffs) and we compared Dirks best year to Iverson's or Kobe's better years, we would see that AI/Kobe scored more than Dirk in likely 80 games. In no other sport would anybody consider the Dirk scorer better. It's not fathomable.[/QUOTE]

You didn't really respond to my post.

You're saying it's as cut and dry as "If person A scores more, he's a better scorer than person B."

I'm saying that at SOME point %s obviously matter (most people would say that person A [31 points, 60% shooting] was the better "scorer" compared to person B [32 points, 20%shooting]).

So if % does matter at some extreme level, we have to find how un-extreme it has to get before it doesn't matter anymore. Then you looked at Dirk and AI compared to those findings and determine who the better scorer is.

That's all IMO obviously and I don't even know who would come out on top.. I just think it's silly to say "**** all the other statistics". To me, I look at "Okay Player X has the ball. We really need a score. How much do I trust his ability". I think Dirk matches up really well there. Dirk has his shortcomings, but his ability to score on any defender should be unquestioned at this point.
________

Completely unrelated.. but most of Kobe's 40+ streaks and huge games came when his team was completely garbage and he HAD to take a ton of the shots. Notice when Kobe has a winning team, his scoring goes back down. Notice how he doesn't have that many 40 point games in the playoffs and his Finals scoring numbers are even lower. Before you get mad, none of this is a knock on Kobe. That's just how the system is. It's not because Kobe all of a sudden can't score as much (up until this season at least) it's because when your team is better, it's easier to win when one person isn't dominating the ball. Kobe knows that. If he could trade all those 40 point games for another ring he'd do it in a heartbeat and it wouldn't make him any less of a "scorer".

Dirk's teams have almost always won 50+ games and haven't needed him to score more than 25 a night. When his teammates do have an off night (which happens more rarely than Kobe's teams during those years), Dirk usually comes through with a huge scoring game to lift the load. It doesn't mean that one night when he's going for 40+ he figured something out, and then forgot it the next game. It just means that showing the world you can score a bunch isn't the point of being an NBA superstar and it's not always conducive to winning.

[QUOTE=FF1]You originally responded to a post I made about their post season numbers. This is the 2nd time I've pointed that out to you. Stop coming at me with regular season numbers, because I never said Dirk was a better regular season scorer.[/QUOTE]
I pointed out the PS as well. :oldlol:

Kobe is the better PS and RS scorer.

Dork ain't on Kobe's level. Deal wit it.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]lol. Dork can't see Kobe as a scorer.

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=Jacks3]

His averages are way higher. He has about 7 post-seasons with higher averages than Dirk's absolute best.
[/QUOTE]

Again, Kobe's career playoffs PPG are lower than Dirk's. Kobe fans always love to throw out the seasons when he was young and bad, but I never see them throw out MJ's old and bad stats when they're comparing him to Kobe.

And Kobe scored 1-3 more points on worse shooting. I don't think that's in the "we should never have a discussion about it" category.

But it's clear you're not interested in having a discussion.

Sorry, Dirk having a 2-3% TS means very little when Kobe's volume is clearly better by a pretty large gap. Besides, TS%/efficiency isn't everything, or else I'd consider Dantley a far better scorer than either Kobe or Dirk and obviously that isn't the case. What is there to discuss? Kobe blows him away in the RS, and his scoring game has no problem translating to the PS, so why exactly should I believe Dirk is a better PS scorer? It's not like Dirk is raising his game to some mythical level or anything. He's around 27-28 PPG/59-60% TS for his prime runs, which is awesome, but Kobe is around 30+ PPPG/57% TS which is even better. He has more 30+ point games in the PS, he has more 40+ point games in the PS. His best scoring runs in the PS are better than Dirk's.

Seems to me that Kobe is clearly the better PS scorer. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=FF1].
________

Completely unrelated.. but most of Kobe's 40+ streaks and huge games came when his team was completely garbage and he HAD to take a ton of the shots. Notice when Kobe has a winning team, his scoring goes back down. Notice how he doesn't have that many 40 point games in the playoffs and his Finals scoring numbers are even lower. Before you get mad, none of this is a knock on Kobe. That's just how the system is. It's not because Kobe all of a sudden can't score as much (up until this season at least) it's because when your team is better, it's easier to win when one person isn't dominating the ball. Kobe knows that. If he could trade all those 40 point games for another ring he'd do it in a heartbeat and it wouldn't make him any less of a "scorer".

.[/QUOTE]
lol @ this lame excuse. Kobe put up those numbers because he had to. There have been numerous stretches where the Mavs could have used Dirk going off like that, but he can't. He's not good enough. lol @ u acting like it's simply just a case of "taking more shots". :roll:

[QUOTE=Jacks3]lol. Dork can't see Kobe as a scorer.

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
Damn. That's a astronomical gap. :eek:

[QUOTE=FF1]You didn't really respond to my post.

You're saying it's as cut and dry as "If person A scores more, he's a better scorer than person B."

I'm saying that at SOME point %s obviously matter (most people would say that person A [31 points, 60% shooting] was the better "scorer" compared to person B [32 points, 20%shooting]).

So if % does matter at some extreme level, we have to find how un-extreme it has to get before it doesn't matter anymore. Then you looked at Dirk and AI compared to those findings and determine who the better scorer is.

That's all IMO obviously and I don't even know who would come out on top.. I just think it's silly to say "**** all the other statistics". To me, I look at "Okay Player X has the ball. We really need a score. How much do I trust his ability". I think Dirk matches up really well there. Dirk has his shortcomings, but his ability to score on any defender should be unquestioned at this point.
[/QUOTE]
Primary function of a scorer? He scores. Primary function of an elite scorer: He scores at the highest level in his sport. The other things are conditional on the first premise. Shooting percentage does not supersede scoring. You must be in the highest echeleon of scoring to be elite. No excuses. Now, there are circumstances where I think terrible percentage comes into play, it's cancelled out if you can win with it as it might be part of the strategy. Your condition above sounds like you are talking about clutch scoring. It has nothing to do whatsoever with prolific scoring at all. Robert Horry was not a prolific scorer but he subscribes to your condition above.

Dirk is a great scorer, but I would bet money on the guys I mentioned above if I wanted 40 points for sure. I don't question any of the elite scorers ability to score on any one defender - seriously that should go without question. Derrick Rose will blow by any defender in the league and get a layup out of it rather than a jump shot. Dirk doesn't shoot a great percentage for a seven footer either.

[QUOTE=King24]Damn. That's a astronomical gap. :eek:[/QUOTE]

Its like we aren't comparing equals.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Scorer means you score alot? No?

A scorer scores points. An elite scorer is among the top scorers. Excuses are never consulted. If Yao didn't get tired, he could take a high volume of shots - but he couldn't. Therefore he isn't in the argument.

If another player scores more than you, who is the greater scorer? If you are not among the top scorers, it is impossible to be an elite scorer. I'll just stick with the elite argument for now, maybe we do the next to elite later.

Do you really think Dirk is on the level of Jordan, Hakeem, AI, Wilt, Shaq, Baylor, Gervin, Wade, Lebron? Those guys are the elite. I might be missing somebody but it isn't Dirk. Dirk doesn't have multiple years of great scoring like these guys have. Therefore he can't be considered in their company. Kobe is in there company because he's got several years where he leads in regular season and post season like those guys. There are years where he stands out. Dirk just doesn't have the feature these guys have. Dirk has no standout year where you go "Wow! what a scoring accomplishment." Are you seriously trying to say Dirk belongs in that company???

Did somebody say efficient scorer? - its not the same thing. Artis GIlmore was an incredibly efficient scorer.[/QUOTE]

It depends on your definition. In the regular season? No, I don't think Dirk belongs in that company. Mainly because he doesn't force up as many shots and plays far more team oriented ball than a lot of those guys on that list.

In the playoffs? Absolutely. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg. He's the most efficient high volume scorer (over 25 ppg) in playoff history.

Dirk has had 7 seasons in the playoffs over 26.5 ppg. And he does that about as efficiently as anyone ever. Efficiency absolutely matters...its not just ppg. And even if it was....he's 8th all time in playoff ppg. You may value the regular season more. I don't. I care far more about the playoffs.

And if the 8th best ppg scorer in playoff history with best efficiency in playoff history over 25 ppg isn't elite, then only a couple guys in history are elite. Just depends on your definition. Its just semantics. He's absolutely without a doubt one of the 10 best playoff scorers of all time. That is elite to me.

Here are the guys that average more ppg than Dirk:

1. jordan
2. iverson
3. west
4. tmac
5. lebron
6. baylor
7. gervin

thats it. in the history of the nba....thats it.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Since when are 7 footers supposed to be shooting the same percentage as shooting guards???[/QUOTE]

Since when are 7 footers supposed to shoot a much better percentage from 3 and the ft line than most guards?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It depends on your definition. In the regular season? No, I don't think Dirk belongs in that company. Mainly because he doesn't force up as many shots and plays far more team oriented ball than a lot of those guys on that list.

In the playoffs? Absolutely. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg. He's the most efficient high volume scorer (over 25 ppg) in playoff history.

Dirk has had 7 seasons in the playoffs over 26.5 ppg. And he does that about as efficiently as anyone ever. Efficiency absolutely matters...its not just ppg. And even if it was....he's 8th all time in playoff ppg. You may value the regular season more. I don't. I care far more about the playoffs.

And if the 8th best ppg scorer in playoff history with best efficiency in playoff history over 25 ppg isn't elite, then only a couple guys in history are elite. Just depends on your definition. Its just semantics. He's absolutely without a doubt one of the 10 best playoff scorers of all time. That is elite to me.

Here are the guys that average more ppg than Dirk:

1. jordan
2. iverson
3. west
4. [B]tmac[/B]
5. lebron
6. baylor
7. gervin

thats it. in the history of the nba....thats it.[/QUOTE]
:pimp: