ISH's #7 Player of Alltime

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Oscar ahead of Shaq?[/QUOTE]

Yes. As a guy who saw both, I believe Robertson was unquestionably a better basketball player.

Let's start with the fact that I'm a Shaq fan. Immensely entertaining and, at his best, a truly dominant player. But in one of the weakest eras of big men in league history, Shaq wasn't a dominant rebounder for an extended period during his career. He was never a great shot blocker, and for half his career was a real liability as a pick & roll defender. He was essentially a power player on the offensive end, and only really increased his repetoire as his age and conditioning dictated. And his lack of conditioning accelerated his decline. His last 5 years in the league he was a shadow of his former self who survived because of the lack of quality bigs in the NBA.

Robertson was as complete a basketball player as has ever stepped on the floor. He faced up and shot the ball effectively; had a post game that Shaq should have aspired to (and that would make LeBron James an all time great if he developed); defended, often the best scorer on the other side; rebounded like a much bigger player; and did it all, for the most part, with an inferior cast of teammates. Yes, he won with Kareem at the tail end of his career, but he certainly never played with guys the caliber that Shaq did.

I kind of lost faith in this list when Magic came in at #4 ( a great player and unique to this day, but not close to the 4th best player of all time). I chalk it up to the youth of the people voting in your poll. Their knowledge of players prior to Jordan is obviously pretty spotty, and they appear to be more influenced by threads on Ish than how well guys actually played the game.

Just my .02. Thanks for asking.

17 - Shaquille O'Neal
11 - Tim Duncan
5 - Hakeem Olajuwon
3 - Oscar Robertson
2 - Kobe Bryant

Total - 38 votes

Shaq had an excellent career and his prime shits on anyone left, not to mention the players already picked above him.

Shaq.

[QUOTE=JMT]Yes. As a guy who saw both, I believe Robertson was unquestionably a better basketball player.

Let's start with the fact that I'm a Shaq fan. Immensely entertaining and, at his best, a truly dominant player. But in one of the weakest eras of big men in league history, Shaq wasn't a dominant rebounder for an extended period during his career. He was never a great shot blocker, and for half his career was a real liability as a pick & roll defender. He was essentially a power player on the offensive end, and only really increased his repetoire as his age and conditioning dictated. And his lack of conditioning accelerated his decline. His last 5 years in the league he was a shadow of his former self who survived because of the lack of quality bigs in the NBA.

Robertson was as complete a basketball player as has ever stepped on the floor. He faced up and shot the ball effectively; had a post game that Shaq should have aspired to (and that would make LeBron James an all time great if he developed); defended, often the best scorer on the other side; rebounded like a much bigger player; and did it all, for the most part, with an inferior cast of teammates. Yes, he won with Kareem at the tail end of his career, but he certainly never played with guys the caliber that Shaq did.

I kind of lost faith in this list when Magic came in at #4 ( a great player and unique to this day, but not close to the 4th best player of all time). I chalk it up to the youth of the people voting in your poll. Their knowledge of players prior to Jordan is obviously pretty spotty, and they appear to be more influenced by threads on Ish than how well guys actually played the game.

Just my .02. Thanks for asking.[/QUOTE]

Whats wrong with Magic at 4?

and for those who say he had Kareem:
[B]
1987 Playoffs[/B]
Magic - 21.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 12.2 apg on 53.9 FG%
Kareem - 19.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.0 apg on 53 FG%

[B]1988 Playoffs[/B]
Magic - 19.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 12.6 apg on 51.4 FG%
Kareem - 14.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg on 46.4 FG%

#1 alltime in Playoff assists
#1 alltime in Playoff APG
#11 alltime in Playoff points

[QUOTE=JMT]
I kind of lost faith in this list when Magic came in at #4 ( a great player and unique to this day, but not close to the 4th best player of all time). I chalk it up to the youth of the people voting in your poll. Their knowledge of players prior to Jordan is obviously pretty spotty, and they appear to be more influenced by threads on Ish than how well guys actually played the game.
.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm Magic is arguably the greatest offensive player to ever play the game, and yes that includes MJ. MJ is my favorite player of all-time, but recently I am starting to lean towards saying Magic is the greatest offensive player ever. There is nobody that can anchor an entire offense like him.

[QUOTE=Inception28]That being said, I usually like to use eFG% when calculating perimeter player's shooting/scoring efficiency. There isn't too much of a point in using eFG% with big men specifically Hakeem and Shaq because it is not like either one of those guys were capable of hitting 3s outside of luck pretty much.

Kobe in '08 playoffs: 51.4 eFG%
Kobe in '09 playoffs: 49.2 eFG%
Kobe in '10 playoffs: 50.6 eFG%

Hakeem in '94 playoffs: 52.1 eFG%
Hakeem in '95 playoffs: 53.3 eFG%

Shaq in '00 playoffs: 56.6 eFG%
Shaq in '01 playoffs: 55.5 eFG%


Kobe pretty much was less efficient as far as shooting is concerned, not scoring.[/QUOTE]

The opponents defenses and the volume of shots also have to be factored in, imo.

Kobe
'08- 30.1 ppg, 22 FGA
'09- 30.2 ppg, 23 FGA
'10- 29.2 ppg, 22.2 FGA

'08 defenses
Denver- 106.3 defensive rating
Utah- 106.5 defensive rating
San Antonio- 101.8 defensive rating
Boston- 98.9 defensive rating

'09 defenses
Utah- 107.3 defensive rating
Houston- 104 defensive rating
Denver- 106.8 defensive rating
Orlando- 101.9 defensive rating

'10 defenses
Oklahoma City- 104.6 defensive rating
Utah- 105 defensive rating
Phoenix- 110.2 defensive rating
Boston- 103.8 defensive rating

Shaq
'00- 30.7 ppg, 22 FGA
'01- 30.4 ppg, 21.5 FGA
'02- 28.5 ppg, 20.2 FGA

'00 defenses
Sacramento- 102.1 defensive rating
Phoenix- 99 defensive rating
Portland- 100.8 defensive rating
Indiana- 103.6 defensive rating

'01 defenses
Portland- 101.8 defensive rating
Sacramento- 99.6 defensive rating
San Antonio- 98 defensive rating
Philadelphia- 98.9 defensive rating

'02 defenses
Portland- 104 defensive rating
San Antonio- 98.7 defensive rating
Sacramento- 101.1 defensive rating
New Jersey- 98.5 defensive rating

Hakeem
'94- 28.9 ppg, 22.3 FGA
'95- 33 ppg, 26.2 FGA

'94 defenses
Portland- 105.5 defensive rating
Phoenix- 106.8 defensive rating
Utah- 104.1 defensive rating
New York- 98.2 defensive rating

'95 defenses
Utah- 105.7 defensive rating
Phoenix- 110.4 defensive rating
San Antonio- 105.4 defensive rating
Orlando- 107.8 defensive rating

There are some things defensive rating doesn't tell you, for example, the '95 season is skewed somewhat due to the shortened 3 point line. Also, Boston's defense was even better than their defensive rating suggests, imo, this is probably due to all of those blowouts during the regular season where they rested their starters. Also worth noting is that Portland defended Shaq tougher than any other team, imo, despite them not being the best defensive team he faced statistically.

All 3 had some of the best playoff runs of all time, Kobe before the finals in '08 was doing whatever he wanted. 32 ppg on 51 FG%/61 TS% in the first 3 rounds of '08.

Magic led the Lakers to an NBA record highest team FG% of .545 in the 1984-85 season
:bowdown:

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Whats wrong with Magic at 4?

and for those who say he had Kareem:
[B]
1987 Playoffs[/B]
Magic - 21.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 12.2 apg on 53.9 FG%
Kareem - 19.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.0 apg on 53 FG%

[B]1988 Playoffs[/B]
Magic - 19.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 12.6 apg on 51.4 FG%
Kareem - 14.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg on 46.4 FG%[/QUOTE]

Not just Kareem (and it's not really fair to simply look at playoff stats; the season is a long one, and the Big Guy made those glossy w-l records and accompanying seeding a lot easier to attain). Worthy. Cooper. McAdoo. Scott. Great teammates.

Magic was a fantastic player and, as I said earlier, still unique to this day. Don't really mean to knock him; he's a top 10. But placing him over Wilt is one of the more ridiculous things I've ever seen.

[QUOTE=Inception28]:facepalm Magic is arguably the greatest offensive player to ever play the game..[/QUOTE]

Then let's hear the argument. It'll be the first.

[QUOTE=JMT]Not just Kareem (and it's not really fair to simply look at playoff stats; the season is a long one, and the Big Guy made those glossy w-l records and accompanying seeding a lot easier to attain). Worthy. Cooper. McAdoo. Scott. Great teammates.

Magic was a fantastic player and, as I said earlier, still unique to this day. Don't really mean to knock him; he's a top 10. [B]But placing him over Wilt is one of the more ridiculous things I've ever seen.[/B][/QUOTE]

I disagree, Wilt is not a great playoff performer like Magic

guess who shot 1-11 from the freethrow line in a game 7 of the NBA Finals?

[QUOTE=JMT]Then let's hear the argument. It'll be the first.[/QUOTE]
Ok.

-Magic was one of the biggest, if not the biggest mismatch to ever play the game. He was a PG at 6'9 and 250 lbs.
-Magic ran some of the greatest offenses of all-time
-Magic made the best use of his teammates better than anyone else ever did.
-Magic was the greatest passer/playmaker/creator of all-time, averaged 11.2 apg in the RS and 12.3 apg in the PS in his career.
-Magic was an ultra efficient scorer, shooting a TS% of 61.0%. Magic could have scored more points if he actually wanted to, but realize that it was better for the sake of the team to set his teammates up and make them better.

Nobody could anchor an offense better than him. You could probably surround him with a bunch of nobodies and his team offensively would still be elite.


Give me some players you think were better than Magic offensively.

Inception28, only 83 posts but already 2 green boxes of reputation :applause:

[QUOTE=JMT]I can tell you. There are 3-4 guys on the candidate list that belong ahead of Shaq.

[b]Duncan[/b], Robertson and [b]Bryant are easily ahead[/b]. You can debate Hakeem and West.



That's what makes it so absurd that Shaq is in consideration.[/QUOTE]

On a scale of 1-10, how delusional would you describe yourself?

I'm not even dealing with Oscar and West here because I don't know about them as players though I've researched enough to rank Oscar over West as the best guard of his era.

Hakeem is the only guy out of Duncan and Bryant I can see over Shaq. But that's looking at Hakeem's peak, he's not quite at that level if you extend their primes.

Duncan was neither as good in his prime or peak and doesn't have the edge in longevity either. I guess Duncan being a more stable, consistent leader helps his case because I don't see him bolting anywhere though he did come close to signing with Orlando early in his career. Who would you rather have on your team or who would you rather draft, if that matters then Duncan definitely closes the gap.

Kobe just wasn't as good. Its the best way I can put it and I like Kobe. He's fun to watch when he's on his scoring binges but I draw a line at some point when it comes to how good a player is, their playoff performances and then their career. Kobe just isn't as good as Shaq.

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]
Duncan was neither as good in his prime or peak and doesn't have the edge in longevity either. I guess Duncan being a more stable, consistent leader helps his case because I don't see him bolting anywhere though he did come close to signing with Orlando early in his career. Who would you rather have on your team or who would you rather draft, if that matters then Duncan definitely closes the gap. .[/QUOTE]
Duncan also has the intangibles and was a consistently better regular season performer than Shaq was. I would say they were a push when it comes down to playoff performances. Neither one of Duncan's or Shaq's playoff performances stand out over the other. They were both consistently excellent when it came down to the post-season.

It's hard to ignore that Duncan had the better intangibles though. How much you value them is up to you.

[QUOTE=Inception28]Duncan also has the intangibles and [B]was a consistently better regular season performer than Shaq was[/B]. I would say they were a push when it comes down to playoff performances. Neither one of Duncan's or Shaq's playoff performances stand out over the other. They were both consistently excellent when it came down to the post-season.

It's hard to ignore that Duncan had the better intangibles though. How much you value them is up to you.[/QUOTE]
:wtf: