prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=$LakerGold]
Lol. Kevin Mchale was a solid player, but he's can't take on Prime Pau.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that because you're a Laker fan? I assume you are because of your ava name.

Dat ain't cool man. Mchale was awesome. You should rather have prime Mchale over Pau dude. The Lakers wouldn't swept by the Mavs in 11 if prime Mchale was on dat team. Or how KG try to punk/own Gasol in 08? Dat wouldn't happened with Mchale man. Mchale would do some WWE crap and clotheslines one of their scrub players, then talk trash like prime Stone Cold Steve Austin to get everyone pumped up, and then proceed to dominant with at least 24 points and some solid defense or something instead of Gasol's 14.3 ppg in the finals.

Mchale had sooo much pimp in him that he had to name his post moves like it was one of his hoes. Real talk man. He created moves like "The Worm" or the "The Slippery Eel". Unstoppable moves bro. When has Pau been pimp enough to name his own post moves with such style? He's not even pimp enough to keep his head in the game sometimes. Case in point, 2011 playoffs.

When Mchale saw guys giants like Ralph Sampson, a 7'4 dude. And Hakeem the Dream in the Finals, y'know what Mchale did? He was like "I'm no punk" and dropped his pimpin' ho post moves on them, and had 26 ppg on 57%. Ralph Sampson was never the same.

You want prime Mchale and not Gasoft.

On topic:

I'll wait until the end of the season before I decide.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What did I suggest? I merely said Dirk is an elite scorer...on par with just about anyone as a scorer in playoff history other than MJ.
[/quote]
You are the one who jumped at me when I said he was never the premier/top tier scorer in the league. Its not the reverse.
[quote]
You seem to care a lot about regular seasons. I just...well, don't. Not for all time top 25 or so players of all time. I don't care about the regular season. I want to know what these guys can do against teams that are trying as hard and are the better teams in the league. I guess you value games against the Bobcats highly...I just don't.[/QUOTE]

Scoring is scoring - the second you start qualifying it, its a distortion. I never said anything accenting RS over PS.

[quote]
But it does. You are implying that players just "played bad"...and it didn't have anything to do with the Mavs. Which is just false of course.
[/quote]
I have always said Kidd had the best defensive stand ever (and I said this over and over again) I once said show me any player that had a tougher and as successful perimeter assignment in the history of the playoffs. And I was telling you that Tyson Chandler was a stellar defensive player during that year and you tried to make a joke of it. I've recently said he's more important to my team winning right now than Mello is. A player who is arguably, the premier scorer in the league.
[quote]
But again...that wasn't even really my point you responded to. I said the Mavs faced tougher competition than any Spurs title. So again...what year did the Spurs face tougher competition while winning the title?

Or do you just agree with me? [/quote]
I never said anything in regards to the Spurs, sorry wrong guy.

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]This is a tough one, as they are both elite scorers. I like KD's rebounding and D, though.

Give me Durant. They both can score a ton, but KD has the scoring titles and is extremely efficient. Not to mention KD rebounds and plays defense better.[/QUOTE]

I wouldnt say KD is a better rebounder for sure. Dirk was good in his prime, and was great in the playoffs

[QUOTE=DirkNowitzki41]I wouldnt say KD is a better rebounder for sure. Dirk was good in his prime, and was great in the playoffs[/QUOTE]

For sure. During Dirk's best season he recorded 9.9, and is a career 8.2 rpg. Durant still hasn't hit his peak but he averaged 7.9 last year and is averaging 8.2 this year with his career numbers currently sitting at 6.9. It's hard to say since KD hasn't hit his prime yet.

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]For sure. During Dirk's best season he recorded 9.9, and is a career 8.2 rpg. Durant still hasn't hit his peak but he averaged 7.9 last year and is averaging 8.2 this year with his career numbers currently sitting at 6.9. It's hard to say since KD hasn't hit his prime yet.[/QUOTE]

Dirk is an average at best rebounder for his position while Durant is a good rebounder for his position. It's all relative.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]You are the one who jumped at me when I said he was never the premier/top tier scorer in the league. Its not the reverse.


Scoring is scoring - the second you start qualifying it, its a distortion. I never said anything accenting RS over PS.


I have always said Kidd had the best defensive stand ever (and I said this over and over again) I once said show me any player that had a tougher and as successful perimeter assignment in the history of the playoffs. And I was telling you that Tyson Chandler was a stellar defensive player during that year and you tried to make a joke of it. I've recently said he's more important to my team winning right now than Mello is. A player who is arguably, the premier scorer in the league.

I never said anything in regards to the Spurs, sorry wrong guy.[/QUOTE]


So you can't have it both ways. You can't say the Mavs forced other stars to play worse...then turn around and say it was a silent year for superstars. You see?

It was a combination of solid defense and Dirk going off in close games to force others to keep up...and nobody could. Nobody of this era could actually...nobody has done what Dirk did in the playoffs in crunch time before since we started tracking this shit.

Dirk was a top tier scorer in the league...you just value RS over playoffs. I don't. I don't qualify it at all...playoffs are what matters to me. From 08 through 12...that is 5 years...Dirk averaged something like 27 ppg on 61% TS. If that isn't first tier...I don't know what is...

So I want to hear how 27 ppg on 61% TS or whatever it is over a 5 year period in the playoffs while leading a team to the title on 28 ppg 61% TS isn't top tier. Tier implies more than one...so I want to know the players that are better scorers than Dirk when it matters. You could argue Kobe, Durant, and Lebron...and all of it is debatable...

It seems that people are 50/50 right now?

If Durant had a ring 80/20 probably?

Durant's position as number 2 in the league is beginning to be threatened. By a versatile player who is whose defense puts him in contention for the two spot. If George had three years at his current level I it would be very tight at the second spot, but I would be leaning toward George if he had the same amount of battle scars.

In a way the argument would be very similar to the Garnett/Dirk debate (in their primes the ppg difference is about the same as well) but KG was better than Dirk in everything outside of scoring where as George would only be better than Durant in defense. And Durant would be the premier scorer in the league.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]So you can't have it both ways. You can't say the Mavs forced other stars to play worse...then turn around and say it was a silent year for superstars. You see? [/quote]
It was definitely a case of both. Duncan didn't play the Mavs. Lebron's mind state wasn't because of Marion.
[quote]
It was a combination of solid defense and Dirk going off in close games to force others to keep up...and nobody could. Nobody of this era could actually...nobody has done what Dirk did in the playoffs in crunch time before since we started tracking this shit. [/quote]
What Wade did was more impressive. It was the finals, they were down two zip. He goes on to average like 40ppg shot over 550% in three of the wins in a duel with prime Dirk. That was crunch time of all crunch times. Down 0-2 in the finals is crunch time.
[quote]
Dirk was a top tier scorer in the league...you just value RS over playoffs. I don't. I don't qualify it at all...playoffs are what matters to me. From 08 through 12...that is 5 years...Dirk averaged something like 27 ppg on 61% TS. If that isn't first tier...I don't know what is... [/quote]
Dirk has done very well but if you play 100 games in a year, you are responsible for 100 games. You get paid millions of dollars from fans, you are responsible to earn your check like the other players/scorers. You can't cherry pick, or decide the standard - a scorer scores over the course of the year. There is no question in my mind that if Lebron, Wade and Kobe cut back on defense and played only to score, that all three are doing better than 27 ppg being that they have all done it multiple times with a load of other work.

Dirk scores more and rebounds more in the playoffs because he's less spent than other players. His responsibilities are minimal in comparison.
[quote]
So I want to hear how 27 ppg on 61% TS or whatever it is over a 5 year period in the playoffs while leading a team to the title on 28 ppg 61% TS isn't top tier. Tier implies more than one...so I want to know the players that are better scorers than Dirk when it matters. You could argue Kobe, Durant, and Lebron...and all of it is debatable...[/QUOTE]
When it matters??? Jason Terry should rank very high. Robert Horry would also be top rank. The second you start qualifying things it can land everywhere.

Kareem has the record for most points scored and is known as a the best scorer. Gretsky regular season mark is known to hockey fans. Mayweather is closing in on 50 and 0. Nobody knows their championship marks. You can't change the rules because Dirk laid back game hurts him the RS. Sorry scoring encompasses it all. Dirk was never like what Durant has been the last three years. All of the guys mentioned in this paragraph have great endurance. Its part of the game. If you don't have it, you get excluded when talking about the elite in every sport - there are no exceptions. Dirk doesn't play hard on defense either... .

[QUOTE=Pointguard]It was definitely a case of both. Duncan didn't play the Mavs. Lebron's mind state wasn't because of Marion.

What Wade did was more impressive. It was the finals, they were down two zip. He goes on to average like 40ppg shot over 550% in three of the wins in a duel with prime Dirk. That was crunch time of all crunch times. Down 0-2 in the finals is crunch time.

Dirk has done very well but if you play 100 games in a year, you are responsible for 100 games. You get paid millions of dollars from fans, you are responsible to earn your check like the other players/scorers. You can't cherry pick, or decide the standard - a scorer scores over the course of the year. There is no question in my mind that if Lebron, Wade and Kobe cut back on defense and played only to score, that all three are doing better than 27 ppg being that they have all done it multiple times with a load of other work.

Dirk scores more and rebounds more in the playoffs because he's less spent than other players. His responsibilities are minimal in comparison.

When it matters??? Jason Terry should rank very high. Robert Horry would also be top rank. The second you start qualifying things it can land everywhere.

Kareem has the record for most points scored and is known as a the best scorer. Gretsky regular season mark is known to hockey fans. Mayweather is closing in on 50 and 0. Nobody knows their championship marks. You can't change the rules because Dirk laid back game hurts him the RS. Sorry scoring encompasses it all. Dirk was never like what Durant has been the last three years. All of the guys mentioned in this paragraph have great endurance. Its part of the game. If you don't have it, you get excluded when talking about the elite in every sport - there are no exceptions. Dirk doesn't play hard on defense either... .[/QUOTE]


Dude. Dirk does all those things. He rebounds and defends and makes plays for others. He just isn't great at some of those things. If you think Dirk doesn't try hard on defense or rebounding...you are nuts.

Not to mention that Durant's defense to date has been nothing. It's utterly average. Kobe, rests on defense more than just about any player in the league.

And there it is. You value the regular season and playoffs the same. The reason Dirk's numbers are less in the regular season is because he plays less minutes. that is all. his per 36 numbers are identical outside of Dirk getting 1 more rebound in the playoffs for his career per 36 in the playoffs.

That is elite scoring. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg on the 2nd highest overall efficiency of anyone scoring over 25 ppg for their playoff career. LOL...how is that not elite? There is MJ...and then a whole host of guys on that next tier. dirk is one of them.

So this is your argument;

Yea, Dirk is certainly an elite scorer when it matters in the playoffs, but he doesn't stat pad in the regular season against bad teams...so he's not an elite scorer.

I hope you realize that is how silly your argument is.

And Terry is elite for his career? How? Now scoring 16.5 ppg make you an elite scorer? :facepalm


And back to the whole Durant vs Dirk thing...Dirk's impact goes way beyond numbers if you knew anything about the game. But the way you scoff at 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff averages with 2 trips to the finals, 3 trips to the WCF, a title, and a finals MVP is just hilarious. And he did that all never having the kind of properly built quality teams Durant has had since 2011. Like seriously...WB is clearly better than any player Dirk ever played with...

So if Durant wants to get on the Dirk tier (top 20 all time for me)...he has to win a title first. I'm sure he will, but he has to do it before we can talk.

It's like Kevin Love. Something is missing. Prime Dirk is winning like 55 games on the current Wolves...that's how good he actually was and you sell him short hugely by claiming he doesn't try hard in the regular season. I guess those utterly average rosters for top teams all those years were winning close to 60 because Dirk didn't try.

Dirk is a living legend. Durant isn't.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]There was maybe an 8 year stretch where not one person on the planet said that and an 11 year stretch nobody should have.


That said....

Probably Dirk. There are teams id take Durant on but generally if I didnt know who I could pair him with id take Dirk in 01-11 form.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, in most threads all the kids here should just wait til KBlaze responds and then just end the thread. Anyone over 35 would be allowed in the thread but everyone under age should be locked out. That would apply to all real basketball threads not to " who has the most swag" and threads like that.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
And there it is. You value the regular season and playoffs the same.
[/quote]
Scorers are measured on how they score in the game. The game is the the standard measure. Most players play between 70 - 90 games. The bulk of the games are RS. James Worthy was another player that saved himself for the post season where he played on the level of the super scorers. Chauncey Billups played allstar level in the playoffs. Had they played 90 stellar games history would be kind to those guys. In every sport the measure is for the regular season - basketball included. Its not just me.

[quote]
The reason Dirk's numbers are less in the regular season is because he plays less minutes. that is all. his per 36 numbers are identical outside of Dirk getting 1 more rebound in the playoffs for his career per 36 in the playoffs.[/quote]
Which I find really impressive. But Dirk never having to be a top three scorer in the league, Dirk never averaging 10 plus rebounds per game, Dirk rarely defending the superstars at his position even in regular season games, now should be given leniency when talking about overall scoring. How many breaks can somebody be given? The top scorers Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Iverson were way more relentless in their scoring as well. Dirk was never as creative as any of them either.

[quote]
That is elite scoring. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg on the 2nd highest overall efficiency of anyone scoring over 25 ppg for their playoff career. LOL...how is that not elite? There is MJ...and then a whole host of guys on that next tier. dirk is one of them.

So this is your argument;

Yea, Dirk is certainly an elite scorer when it matters in the playoffs, but he doesn't stat pad in the regular season against bad teams...so he's not an elite scorer.

I hope you realize that is how silly your argument is. [/quote]
Ohhh right. Scorers are not suppose to be the best scorers over the course of a season. Just post season. Scorer's score. Its silly to suggest otherwise. In every sport, basketball included there are no exceptions.

[quote]
And Terry is elite for his career? How? Now scoring 16.5 ppg make you an elite scorer? :facepalm [/quote]
I said Terry because you [B]can qualify[/B] his scoring like you are doing with Dirk. Dirk is a great scorer in the playoffs and falls off some in the finals. So Dirk has his niche and Terry has his. Terry in the last three games of each finals is a better scorer than his teammate Dirk. And Horry is also a great niche scorer.

[quote]
And back to the whole Durant vs Dirk thing...Dirk's impact goes way beyond numbers if you knew anything about the game. [/quote]

I coach. Dirk does have impact beyond his scoring. But Durant scores from the same places on the floor as Dirk does and passes better. He is also more creative and a more persistent scorer as well. Take persistent out of scorers like Wade, Iverson and Kobe and they aren't going to be elite anymore, so its a quality that makes a difference (see Blake Griffin)
[quote]
But the way you scoff at 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff averages with 2 trips to the finals, 3 trips to the WCF, a title, and a finals MVP is just hilarious. And he did that all never having the kind of properly built quality teams Durant has had since 2011. Like seriously...WB is clearly better than any player Dirk ever played with... [/quote]
Durant doesn't have have the wisdom on the court like Dirk, KD is about 3 years away from his prime so I give Dirk that. I think those numbers will definitely be surpassed by Durant who is already near a comparable stature. Will he do it before his prime or during it is the only question.
[quote]
So if Durant wants to get on the Dirk tier (top 20 all time for me)...he has to win a title first. I'm sure he will, but he has to do it before we can talk.

It's like Kevin Love. Something is missing. Prime Dirk is winning like 55 games on the current Wolves...that's how good he actually was and you sell him short hugely by claiming he doesn't try hard in the regular season. I guess those utterly average rosters for top teams all those years were winning close to 60 because Dirk didn't try.[/QUOTE]
Dirk never had to put up great PF numbers because his teams were able to take the weight. KG had three years of 1100 rebounds and 8 years of over 900 rebounds while being on the all defensive teams while leading or second on the team in every major statistical category. Dirk has no years of 800 or more rebounds and no all defensive teams. Dirk rarely even had to shoot as good as other PF's as well. Only the team can compensate for lack of blocked, shots, steals, assist. Dirk had a convenience that Karl Malone, Barkley and Garnett didn't have. If they cut back there was no way a team could compensate. Dirk played less, was less productive and won more.

Not sure its a good thing and is definitely an indication of the team doing more than other great PF's.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
And back to the whole Durant vs Dirk thing...Dirk's impact goes way beyond numbers if you knew anything about the game. But the way you scoff at 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff averages with 2 trips to the finals, 3 trips to the WCF, a title, and a finals MVP is just hilarious. [B]And he did that all never having the kind of properly built quality teams Durant has had since 2011. [/B] Like seriously...WB is clearly better than any player Dirk ever played with...
[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with you there man. Once upon a time Dirk had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, a young Juwan Howard, and Shawn Bradley. OKC would love Shawn Bradley over Perkins anyday of the week. His defense and rebounding is just much better. His offense is too, though he is inconsistent, but it's better than nonexistent. They would also love a prime Michael Finley as a third option. The Mavs problem, imo, was that they didn't figure out how to make it all worked with their talent. And their bench sucked. While Don Nelson is a very good coach, they needed a different coaching staff to make all fit. They definitively had the pieces.

Regardless, I always found Dirk had more talent in his earlier Mavs team than the 2011 and onwards OKC team.

[QUOTE=Micku]I have to disagree with you there man. Once upon a time Dirk had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, a young Juwan Howard, and Shawn Bradley. OKC would love Shawn Bradley over Perkins anyday of the week. His defense and rebounding is just much better. His offense is too, though he is inconsistent, but it's better than nonexistence. They would also love a prime Michael Finley as a third option. The Mavs problem, imo, was that they didn't figure out how to make it all worked with their talent. And their bench sucked. While Don Nelson is a very good coach, they needed a different coaching staff to make all fit. They definitively had the pieces.

[B]Regardless, I always found Dirk had more talent in his earlier Mavs team than the 2011 and onwards OKC team[/B].[/QUOTE]

That still doesn't make Durant better than Prime Dirk tho

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Scorers are measured on how they score in the game. The game is the the standard measure. Most players play between 70 - 90 games. The bulk of the games are RS. James Worthy was another player that saved himself for the post season where he played on the level of the super scorers. Chauncey Billups played allstar level in the playoffs. Had they played 90 stellar games history would be kind to those guys. In every sport the measure is for the regular season - basketball included. Its not just me.


Which I find really impressive. But Dirk never having to be a top three scorer in the league, Dirk never averaging 10 plus rebounds per game, Dirk rarely defending the superstars at his position even in regular season games, now should be given leniency when talking about overall scoring. How many breaks can somebody be given? The top scorers Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Iverson were way more relentless in their scoring as well. Dirk was never as creative as any of them either.


Ohhh right. Scorers are not suppose to be the best scorers over the course of a season. Just post season. Scorer's score. Its silly to suggest otherwise. In every sport, basketball included there are no exceptions.


I said Terry because you [B]can qualify[/B] his scoring like you are doing with Dirk. Dirk is a great scorer in the playoffs and falls off some in the finals. So Dirk has his niche and Terry has his. Terry in the last three games of each finals is a better scorer than his teammate Dirk. And Horry is also a great niche scorer.



I coach. Dirk does have impact beyond his scoring. But Durant scores from the same places on the floor as Dirk does and passes better. He is also more creative and a more persistent scorer as well. Take persistent out of scorers like Wade, Iverson and Kobe and they aren't going to be elite anymore, so its a quality that makes a difference (see Blake Griffin)

Durant doesn't have have the wisdom on the court like Dirk, KD is about 3 years away from his prime so I give Dirk that. I think those numbers will definitely be surpassed by Durant who is already near a comparable stature. Will he do it before his prime or during it is the only question.

Dirk never had to put up great PF numbers because his teams were able to take the weight. KG had three years of 1100 rebounds and 8 years of over 900 rebounds while being on the all defensive teams while leading or second on the team in every major statistical category. Dirk has no years of 800 or more rebounds and no all defensive teams. Dirk rarely even had to shoot as good as other PF's as well. Only the team can compensate for lack of blocked, shots, steals, assist. Dirk had a convenience that Karl Malone, Barkley and Garnett didn't have. If they cut back there was no way a team could compensate. Dirk played less, was less productive and won more.

Not sure its a good thing and is definitely an indication of the team doing more than other great PF's.[/QUOTE]

You really over-rate the regular season and the strength of Dirk's teams.

Karl Malone never had the convenience Dirk did? Yea..because Dirk has had a pass first elite defensive high IQ pg managing games for him his entire career and getting him easy baskets constantly....:facepalm

Dirk had better teams than KG and Barkley...don't think he had better teams on the whole than Malone though. So what? That doesn't make Dirk worse...Shaq had far better teams than Dirk ever did...does that somehow make Shaq worse? What do KG, Barkley, and Malone have to do with this? Barkley was a joke on defense...never tried half as hard as Dirk did. Yet Barkley was as good or better than Dirk offensively and they are a toss up. KG was nowhere near the offensive force Barkley and Dirk were, but was an elite level defender. Malone is a mix of it all and again...it's a toss up between them.

But...the argument that those guys had it "harder"...is just silly. Especially because one could argue that Dirk on bad teams would play more minutes and take more shots...driving up his numbers. That wouldn't make Dirk better...if he played on those wolves teams like KG did...Dirk's career averages would all be higher...he'd probably be a little less efficient (maybe) and he'd have better totals. But who cares about that? You really care about Dirk playing 3 more mpg and averaging 25/9/3 in the regular season for his career instead of 23/8/3? Who cares? Especially when Dirk was leading teams to great regular season after great regular season.

These arguments that Dirk got to take it easy and still win are silly...you again sell Dirk short. Just look at 2010, for example, Mavs went 55-27...take a look at the roster...LOL...take a good look at it. I'm supposed to get a hard on for a guy like Kobe in 10 leading a far superior Lakers team to 57 wins...only 2 more...and turn around and say Kobe had it harder? It's a joke dude. Kobe missed 9 games and his team went 6-3 without him...Or Lebron the last few years. He's a do everything player...I'm supposed to go nuts about him winning games with a far superior roster than Dirk ever had? At some point this shit needs to come back to reality. Hell, in 07, Dirk won 67 games...more than Lebron has ever won in a season...with much less help than Lebron has had since joining the Heat. Who had it easier? Lebron also plays in a historically weak conference...while prime Dirk was doing this shit in one of the best conferences the NBA has seen. Who had it tougher? LOL

Who had it harder that season? Seriously...I'd love to know.

Dirk just didn't stat pad like so many guys do. Dirk could easily have stayed in an average 3 or so more minutes per game against shit teams his entire career and scored 2-3 more ppg. As someone that watched his entire career...it would have been easy...like...super easy.

That is why I care about the playoffs. I understand you take it all in more...and I take it all in as well, but I'm just not getting excited about some guys because they drop 35 on a bad team when Dirk drops 25 and takes the 4th qtr off.


You were the one that claimed Dirk isn't an elite scorer. And you are using meaningless regular season games...LOL

Don't you find it funny that you give Dirk no credit for winning 50 or more 11 straight seasons as the clear cut best player of the franchise during that time? Doing it with only 1 all nba player during that whole stretch...and a couple all-stars as well. No leader of a franchise has done more in the regular season over a decade plus with less than Dirk. All while putting up great overall efficiency and leading the Mavs as the best close game team from 04 through 11.

Then...in the playoffs...he's able to play big minutes and score at a rate on par with just about anyone in history other than MJ.

All you are doing is saying that ball dominant wings that shoot more than Dirk are better scorers. And I disagree. I'd take Dirk over Kobe, for example, as a scorer. I want the guy that impacts the game like Dirk without the ball as often...all while being more efficient by a large margin and scoring like 2.2 ppg less prime vs prime in the playoffs.

What Dirk could do in his prime as an offensive player was truly special. Hell, what he can do now is still special.

And if you want to look at the regular seasons so much...take a look at what Dirk does to his teams offense for his career.

When Dirk is on the floor...his teams get 9.3 points better per 100 possessions on offense

Let's compare that to some elite offensive players all time and some guys you have mentioned;

Kobe 7.7
KG 5.5
Lebron 10.1
Durant 5.1
Nash 8.7
Paul 9.1

This a good measure of some of that hidden offensive impact that Dirk has that Durant is somewhat missing so far in his career.

Now lets look at offensive ratings;

Dirk 117
Durant 114
Kobe 112
Nash 118
KG 110
Lebron 116

No matter how you slice it, Dirk is an elite offensive force/scorer in NBA history.

It's just even more impressive considering a career of 26/10/3 58.4% TS in the playoffs over such a long time frame. I'll while doing it that without the kind of help almost every other guy you are bringing up has had...especially at the 2nd option position.