[QUOTE=mehyaM24]lmao!!... not gonna happen
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[QUOTE=mehyaM24]lmao!!... not gonna happen
that's right..."yep". even russell is a greater player than Wilt who had superior talent in 68 and 69(an old injured player coach Russell was). wilt won it in 67′, had near enough 100% copy in 68 .. went 3-1 in the conference finals .. BLEW IT. 69′ WEST PLAYING PHENOMENAL? .. BLEW IT. 70′ Game ? .. BLEW IT. I don’t know if la had superior talent in this one but anyway, in game 7, vs Reed, who Wilt should dominate goes off. Wilt is matched up with a scrub and puts up an average game? LMAO!!....wilt is the biggest choker in NBA History.
im a ****ing genius....and what i say goes.
shaqpopcorn34 is a great poster.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]that's right..."yep". even russell is a greater player than Wilt who had superior talent in 68 and 69(an old injured player coach Russell was). wilt won it in 67′, had near enough 100% copy in 68 .. went 3-1 in the conference finals .. BLEW IT. 69′ WEST PLAYING PHENOMENAL? .. BLEW IT. 70′ Game ? .. BLEW IT. I don’t know if la had superior talent in this one but anyway, in game 7, vs Reed, who Wilt should dominate goes off. Wilt is matched up with a scrub and puts up an average game? LMAO!!....wilt is the biggest choker in NBA History.
im a ****ing genius....and what i say goes.[/QUOTE]
^-- Shaqpopcorn34
[QUOTE=fpliii]Well, there are two camps there. One is the impact camp (using team-based relative estimated ORtg/DRtg to gauge player value on offense/defense), the latter is the video analysis camp. Some do bring up the stuff you mentioned, but they're a very small minority of the regulars.
[B]The impact camp I don't mind so much, but I think there's some difficulty in separating team results from the individual (not enough attention is paid to context).[/B] They do tell us that Wilt improved his teams offenses and defenses when he changed teams. I think I've shared some of the stats with you. I don't think they're awful, anyway (they conclude that his impact is overrated, and his scoring didn't help teams win games).
The latter is headed by guys using fatal9's video of Wilt's post possessions, and they break down some of the flaws in his low post ball-handling/footwork (and conclude that he doesn't possess the skills to be a volume scorer/offensive anchor on a championship team in any era, the modern era specifically). Now, I think this is where CavsFTW's scoring skills video could really help, because if you read the thread to which I linked, they're all very eager to analyze new footage.[/QUOTE]
Hard to do so, when, for Wilt's case, the only types of comparisons someone can make is, necessarily, year vs year, which is not the best way of finding what different someone brought to the table. That's because Wilt was rarely missing any games. So, for example, the '69 Lakers not drastically improving was somehow considered a testament of Wilt's impact being low. But how sure can we be that the '69 Lakers would have been necessarily as good as the '68 Lakers had Wilt never been traded, so that we can get to some conclusion? Wilt rarely missing any game doesn't help such a kind of comparison.
Oscar and Russell did have some periods of injuries which brought about lots of struggles for their teams and this helped their case. Kareem, too. But note how thin their teams were at their specific positions. Sometimes, they had literally nobody else play at the same position. They simply trusted their health a lot. I suspect Wilt missing a good part of any of the 1960-63 seasons (without guys like Thurmond, Luke Jackson or Hairston around) would cause the same type of struggles for the Warriors, because he was their only real center and such a thing would have led some to re-evaluate his impact.
[QUOTE=fpliii]shaqpopcorn34 is a great poster.[/QUOTE]
absolutely...they must not be aware of my legendary status here..
[QUOTE=Psileas]Hard to do so, when, for Wilt's case, the only types of comparisons someone can make is, necessarily, year vs year, which is not the best way of finding what different someone brought to the table. That's because Wilt was rarely missing any games. So, for example, the '69 Lakers not drastically improving was somehow considered a testament of Wilt's impact being low. But how sure can we be that the '69 Lakers would have been necessarily as good as the '68 Lakers had Wilt never been traded, so that we can get to some conclusion? Wilt rarely missing any game doesn't help such a kind of comparison.
Oscar and Russell did have some periods of injuries which brought about lots of struggles for their teams and this helped their case. Kareem, too. But note how thin their teams were at their specific positions. Sometimes, they had literally nobody else play at the same position. They simply trusted their health a lot. I suspect Wilt missing a good part of any of the 1960-63 seasons (without guys like Thurmond, Luke Jackson or Hairston around) would cause the same type of struggles for the Warriors, because he was their only real center and such a thing would have led some to re-evaluate his impact.[/QUOTE]
Good points. I posted this in a recent thread with his impact in mind:
"I think volume scoring Wilt could have won championships in a different era. The main problem with his early teams (aside from running into Bill Russell) was the lack of shooters in his supporting cast. If there's no threat of an outside shot, and you have a big man posting up on the block every possession, there's no reason not to cheat on defense and help on Wilt. The reduced shot attempts also helped get non-shooters in a rhythm by giving them more opportunities to shoot during the season to prepare for the playoffs (when they'd be open, more often).
A big part of why Wilt (and his teams) succeeded later on is because Hannum decided to put him in the high post. With Wilt no longer clogging up the paint, his teammates were free to drive on offense (this was an issue again in his first year with the Lakers, but van Breda Kolff wasn't the best of coaches), so even if you don't have the best of shooters, you have a shot (almost worked in 64, but he went up against absolute peak Russell).
Fewer responsibilities on offense also frees up energy for defense. Wilt was actually a pretty good defender his first couple of years (he actually thought of himself as a defense-first guy early on) in the league (more so man D though, Russell seems to be the only guy who played true team-level defense as of the early 60s, taking away the dunk/layup), but in the 50 ppg season with McGuire as coach and the next year (early in 64-65 as well, but he had severe illness), he took forever to get back on D. He still blocked a lot of shots those seasons, but he wasn't the same defender. From 63-64 through 67-68 (excluding the first half of 64-65), he was an exceptional defensive player (and again under Sharman later on)."
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]absolutely...they must not be aware of my legendary status here..[/QUOTE]
My god...is this the typical poster at RealGM?
[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RI7dARQ695s/S-bIjIdnKCI/AAAAAAAACzo/7xYAq8XWW4o/s1600/toothless.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]My god...is this the typical poster at RealGM?
[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RI7dARQ695s/S-bIjIdnKCI/AAAAAAAACzo/7xYAq8XWW4o/s1600/toothless.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
The RealGM PC board is actually not that bad. I think there's just a lot of skepticism in there in general, because they're a very data- and analysis-oriented community. I've been there for a while and can really appreciate the conversation on that forum. I really think a scoring skills video will give Wilt a fair shake there. If people, after watching that, draw their own conclusions, it's perfectly fine with me.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]My god...is this the typical poster at RealGM?[/QUOTE]
...you can call me bobby fischer, because that's a checkmate...lmao
[QUOTE=fpliii]The RealGM PC board is actually not that bad. I think there's just a lot of skepticism in there in general, because they're a very data- and analysis-oriented community. I've been there for a while and can really appreciate the conversation on that forum. I really think a scoring skills video will give Wilt a fair shake there. If people, after watching that, draw their own conclusions, it's perfectly fine with me.[/QUOTE]
I apologize...
That was uncalled for.
BTW, I consider you one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum. If there are more like you at RealGM, we could use them here.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I apologize...
That was uncalled for.
BTW, I consider you one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum. If there are more like you at RealGM, we could use them here.[/QUOTE]
There are a few trolls there (bastillion, for one, if you've browsed) on the PC board, and the General Board is pure trash.
This nehyaM24 guy in particular doesn't post on RealGM as far as I can tell. He's shaqpopcorn34 from YouTube. I think CavsFTW can tell you more about him.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oemQKScZ7MQ[/url]
As soon as I see this video I know I'm about to read some bullshit. I will admit, he sometimes did look a little sloppy, or slow gathering himself...But to think that's what he was like every time he posted up is just ridiculous when you see him fading away as quick as a freakin guard....For instance the clip of him in college shooting from near 15 feet....I'm sure you know which I'm talking about.
Like every great center was flawless every time he touched the ball
:facepalm
This is why I never care to go into detail about anything on here...I feel like my brains going to explode.
[QUOTE=jongib369][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oemQKScZ7MQ[/url]
As soon as I see this video I know I'm about to read some bullshit. I will admit, he sometimes did look a little sloppy, or slow gathering himself...But to think that's what he was like every time he posted up is just ridiculous when you see him fading away as quick as a freakin guard....For instance the clip of him in college shooting from near 15 feet....I'm sure you know which I'm talking about.
Like every great center was flawless every time he touched the ball
:facepalm
This is why I never care to go into detail about anything on here...I feel like my brains going to explode.[/QUOTE]
That's the '67 game where Wilt had two inflamed knees and bad shinsplints in both legs - could barely lift his legs to walk up a flight of stairs coming into that game. Fatal9 either did not know about that, or chose to ignore it and make the video anyways. That video does not even reflect Wilt's usual abilities, because he was basically immobile from the knees down that game.
[QUOTE=fpliii]There are a few trolls there (bastillion, for one, if you've browsed) on the PC board, and the General Board is pure trash.
This nehyaM24 guy in particular doesn't post on RealGM as far as I can tell. He's shaqpopcorn34 from YouTube. I think CavsFTW can tell you more about him.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how, in a strictly moderated community like RealGM, such guys are allowed to post. Bastillion is not a troll in the ISH sense, but he's clearly an apex Wilt hater, who'll try to spin anything he can against him (cherry-picking, mixing facts with opinions and lies) and, seemingly, a pretty obnoxious person. I thought RGM didn't tolerate such stuff.