Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[QUOTE=Pointguard]We were discussing whose team was it? If the franchise gave the key to Magic, if Kareem got very upset about them giving him the keys then its obvious that Kareem knows, does it really matter what the press thinks? To pretend like Pat Riley didn't know that his main decision maker and coach on the floor didn't know managements dynamics is a bit crazy. Do you really think that the franchise and coach didn't know whose team it was? Magic handled Kareem with kid gloves on.


Not if you are comparing him to Magic. If Magic asserted himself and his power, he could have gotten rid of the guy that stood in the way of him scoring.


There were no consistent winners after '74. That's when stuff like that happens. Dallas was a lot like the Pistons in that they were a good team - best three point shooting team in the playoffs, best SF stand on defense ever, best SG defensive stand ever in the playoffs ever as well. There were other underdogs that won as well. What was rare with Barry was one offensive player doing that type of damage.


In '74 he wasn't himself but in 72 he is still one of the smartest players around and a great player. But Kareem had an unbelievable season that year and it was his most complete great year in every way.


While I think his defense was better than Shaq's his impact wasn't on par as Shaq's '00 - '02. There was nothing left to be desired those years from Shaq and perhaps was the biggest earthquake splash we've seen. But even Shaq wasn't as dominant as Jordan's top three years. If you go performance wise Wilt's top three years were better too. If you go team wise Magic from '87 thru '89 would be better as no team ever looked better. And then Bird from '84-'86.

I think Kareem has a case. But Jordan dominated a group of HOF centers, even one that was more dominant than Kareem, while Kareem had trouble with the few great ones (Mac and Moses) that came up in his prime. Magic was unquestionably the greatest winner in the most competitive era.



You know full well I talked about Gus Williams and that DJ was one of the best clutch shooters in the 80's. When Magic came aboard that same Supersonic team was handed their heads. Must be that the game was more about the guards than it was about the center huh?

A player with a great affect on three player's ability to make shots in an elimination game. As great a defensive affect as any one player in recent memory. This is with a super hot Bird and one of the most clutch players in the game missing at a 70% clip. If you don't call it defense, then give Magic his own category called control of game damage. It totally eliminated Bird
s, Ainge's and DJ's capacity to be effective.



Sorry but McHale pretty much cancelled out Kareem. He outrebounded him, shot pretty much the same percentage and outscored him. And Kareem was guarding him. Magic totally killed Boston on the run. He ran them to death. You rarely see a player ever average 14 assist per game on a great defensive team. All of the Laker's wins were by more than 10 points (game 2 ended up closer than what the game was ended) which is because Magic found the holes in the defense and gets all the easy baskets on the break. Worthy's high scoring is also very indicative of Magic's control. All of Magic's primary targets shot incredibly well against a top defensive team. You can go by who had the biggest numbers thing if you want to misunderstand the game. Those who know better, know that the game is won in how it is played.

In the '80 Magic is very close to outrebounding Kareem himself - were did you get that from? You don't know. During Kareem's watch the center position died down significantly. After Wilt left in 73 Kareem didn't win won ring without Magic or the seven years before Magic. Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing did not win a ring on prime Jordan's or Magic's healthy watch and they had about 30 chances between them. Shaq had better teammates than any contemporary, and Kobe still has more rings than him. If you take out the Kareem/Magic equation and Kobe/Shaq you only have two years of center position impact and those two years were loaned out by the GOAT.

Bird and Magic changed the game and made it so that if you are a smart skilled player (Kobe, Duncan, Lebron) you can have at least equal impact. Jordan proved to be GOAT. After Kareem's arrival, the game was shortly thereafter decentralized. Bird and Magic were the icing on the cake.[/QUOTE]

kareem is overrated....but your post is laughable. you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

btw, bill Russell was better than wilt....no question about it.....wilt rebounded like a schoolgirl in the entire 60s and road jerry west's coattails....the lakers were better without wilt.....that's why in game 7 of the 1969 finals they made a run with him on the bench.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]kareem is overrated....but your post is laughable. you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

btw, bill Russell was better than wilt....no question about it.....wilt rebounded like a schoolgirl in the entire 60s and road jerry west's coattails....the lakers were better without wilt.....that's why in game 7 of the 1969 finals they made a run with him on the bench.[/QUOTE]

I honestly don't think there is one bit of truth to any of the above post. I could not find one point that was accurate.

Damn, I rate Bird way higher than most. Maybe I need to rewatch some tape.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Damn, I rate Bird way higher than most. Maybe I need to rewatch some tape.[/QUOTE]

Well, I can respect your opinion...even if I might disagree with it. But, I'm sure that you would at least be able to provide some actual research to back up your stance. Unfortunately, on this Forum, the majority of the Bird-lovers can only use opinions (and laced with EXCUSES), with absolutely nothing to back them up.

Pajaro es el major. Legend. Greatness. No injury and he is the best ever. Amazing. Never ever gonna be another Bird. watching him play is like ****ing a supermodel virgin. Nobody compares. Just ****ing sick.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Well, I can respect your opinion...even if I might disagree with it. But, I'm sure that you would at least be able to provide some actual research to back up your stance. Unfortunately, on this Forum, the majority of the Bird-lovers can only use opinions (and laced with EXCUSES), with absolutely nothing to back them up.[/QUOTE]
Well, I don't have a GOAT list, as you know, so I'm just rating in terms of quality as a player. If this is a resume battle Magic will win out.

Just from watching games of Bird though, from 79-80 through 87-88, I just think he was on a higher level entirely as a player than Magic ever was. This is entirely subjective and hard to describe, but it's just the impression I get.

I don't have a problem with anybody's opinion on the matter, as I'm sure each person came to his conclusions on his own. I just don't see it, from watching their games or looking at the data.

Again, I haven't researched it too much so I probably shouldn't comment, just the impression I get.

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
[B]I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.[/B]

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.[/QUOTE]

You must know jacks**t then my friend. Rookie Magic was able to carry a team to a clinching blowout road win, withOUT Kareem.

He also led a Laker team to a 63-19 record withOUT Kareem, and then followed that up by taking an injury-riddled and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals, in his LAST season.

And for the record, I am CONVINCED that they could have plugged Stanley Hudson into Kareem's slot in the '88 post-season and won a title. Kareem was absolutely AWFUL in that post-season, and then was even WORSE in the Finals (and I can't recall any other GOAT candidate ever having a worse game seven.) They won a title that season, DESPITE Kareem.

And I will contend that they were deep and talented enough to have won a title in '87 without him, too. Thompson and Green proved they could fill his shoes.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]kareem is overrated....but your post is laughable. you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

btw, bill Russell was better than wilt....no question about it.....wilt rebounded like a schoolgirl in the entire 60s and road jerry west's coattails....the lakers were better without wilt.....that's why in game 7 of the 1969 finals they made a run with him on the bench.[/QUOTE]
Did somebody just fart?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Who is this "alt", and who is "owning me?"

jlauber? He is dead according to your alt, Millwad.

And have you read any of his posts here lately?

Goota love it. When someone agrees with me, they have to be an "alt."

You need to get find another hobby. Something that doesn't require any knowledge.[/QUOTE]

I don't think he's Millwood, Millwood would debate and know how create his own arguments rather than imagining other people are doing it impressively for him.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Well, I don't have a GOAT list, as you know, so I'm just rating in terms of quality as a player. If this is a resume battle Magic will win out.

Just from watching games of Bird though, from 79-80 through 87-88, I just think he was on a higher level entirely as a player than Magic ever was. This is entirely subjective and hard to describe, but it's just the impression I get.

I don't have a problem with anybody's opinion on the matter, as I'm sure each person came to his conclusions on his own. I just don't see it, from watching their games or looking at the data.

Again, I haven't researched it too much so I probably shouldn't comment, just the impression I get.

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

I saw both of them play in their entire careers. Other than the three-peat Bird, (and again, Magic was MUCH better in their Finals H2H that season, and in the playoffs in general), I had Magic over him every single season the two were in the league together.

The problem for Magic, was that he was asked to run the offense. Could he scored more? Absolutely. He proved that time-and-again in his career. Hell in the BIRD-MAGIC career H2H's, it was MAGIC with the TWO highest scoring games. I have no doubt that Magic could have put up 30 ppg seasons in the 80's. My god, look at his FG% and TS%'s. Until Lebron came along, Magic had, by far, the most efficient seasons by a guard in NBA history (although, using eFG% league averages, Oscar had equal seasons in the 60's.)

And Magic was simply a more productive player in the post-season. Bird had some legendary AWFUL shooting series in his post-season career. He actually shot below the league average in his post-season career.

H2H Magic was better, and think about this...had Worthy not made ONE ill-advised pass in the '84 Finals, the Lakers would have won that series in six. And, had Magic not missed ONE FT, the Lakers would have SWEPT Boston in that series. They were one of those plays or shots away, from having a 3-0 record against Bird's Celtics in their three Finals' H2H's. Where do you think Bird would be on most of these "lists" under those circumstances?

I have provided their post-season info...and it is UGLY for Bird.

Again, Bird has a case for being better in '81 (but, he was awful in the Finals), '84 (again, ONE play away from Magic winning yet another FMVP), and solidly in '86. Magic RUNS AWAY with the better post-seasons in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91.

Same number of MVPs, Magic with more FMVPs (and was robbed in '88), more Rings, More Finals, did more with less. Right down the line. Magic's RESUME is CLEARLY better than Bird's.

I understand where you're coming from, but for each of these seasons, who was better in your opinion (not better season or playoffs run, per se, but who the superior player)?

79-80
80-81
81-82
82-83
83-84
84-85
85-86
86-87
87-88

[QUOTE=fpliii]Well, I don't have a GOAT list, as you know, so I'm just rating in terms of quality as a player. If this is a resume battle Magic will win out.

Just from watching games of Bird though, from 79-80 through 87-88, I just think he was on a higher level entirely as a player than Magic ever was. This is entirely subjective and hard to describe, but it's just the impression I get.

I don't have a problem with anybody's opinion on the matter, as I'm sure each person came to his conclusions on his own. I just don't see it, from watching their games or looking at the data.

Again, I haven't researched it too much so I probably shouldn't comment, just the impression I get.

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
On the strength, Bird was a great combination of smarts, skills, full offensive repertoire, passing, rebounding, scoring, disarming the defense, and team play there are very few that could be as effective in his many ways.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I understand where you're coming from, but for each of these seasons, who was better in your opinion (not better season or playoffs run, per se, but who the superior player)?

79-80
80-81
81-82
82-83
83-84
84-85
85-86
86-87
87-88[/QUOTE]

ENTIRE seasons, and covering the post-season?

Magic in '80
Bird in '81
Magic in '82 (BTW a near triple-double regular AND post-season)
Magic in '83
Bird in '84
Magic in '85
Bird in '86
Magic in '87
Magic in '88
and beyond...

Again, research has clearly shown us that Magic could have scored far more in his career. So, using scoring against Johnson won't fly. Bird was a better rebounder, but Magic was among the greatest rebounding guards of all-time. And Magic was clearly a better passer (albeit, Bird, along with Lebron, are probably the two greatest passing Forwards of all-time.) Magic was MUCH more efficient, in... REGULAR season, POST-SEASON, and FINALS, as well as H2H.

And I have already debunked this ridiculous theory that he had better rosters. He won a title clinching game, on the road, without the regular season MVP. He led two teams, both on the decline BTW, and after KAJ, had retired, to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and a trip to the Finals.) And I'm sorry KAJ fans, but he would have won a ring in '88 with ME at center, and likely would have won a ring in '87 with Green and Thompson splitting all the minutes at center.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]ENTIRE seasons, and covering the post-season?

Magic in '80
Bird in '81
Magic in '82 (BTW a near triple-double regular AND post-season)
Magic in '83
Bird in '84
Magic in '85
Bird in '86
Magic in '87
Magic in '88
and beyond...

Again, research has clearly shown us that Magic could have scored far more in his career. So, using scoring against Johnson won't fly. Bird was a better rebounder, but Magic was among the greatest rebounding guards of all-time. And Magic was clearly a better passer (albeit, Bird, along with Lebron, are probably the two greatest passing Forwards of all-time.) Magic was MUCH more efficient, in... REGULAR season, POST-SEASON, and FINALS, as well as H2H.

And I have already debunked this ridiculous theory that he had better rosters. He won a title clinching game, on the road, without the regular season MVP. He led two teams, both on the decline BTW, and after KAJ, had retired, to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and a trip to the Finals.) And I'm sorry KAJ fans, but he would have won a ring in '88 with ME at center, and likely would have won a ring in '87 with Green and Thompson splitting all the minutes at center.[/QUOTE]
Interesting, thanks for your breakdown.

BTW I still have to finish "When the Game Was Ours", but here are a couple of good anecdotes from early on:

[QUOTE]When Kelser and Magic arrived back at their hotel, Kelser gathered the team together and told them to start locking into their game assignments.

"This Bird guy is really serious," Kelser reported. "He's already got his game face on."

Heathcote spent his entire practice before the championship game devising ways to slow Bird. His frustration grew as one after another of his subs impersonated number 33, yet failed to duplicate the kind of offensive firepower Heathcote knew was coming.

"This isn't working," Heathcote said. "You guys don't play anything like Bird. Earvin, you be Larry

[QUOTE=fpliii]Interesting, thanks for your breakdown.

BTW I still have to finish "When the Game Was Ours", but here are a couple of good anecdotes from early on:





There's also the story about the World Invitational Tournament, but this video does it better justice:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjYuKvJS55E[/url][/QUOTE]

Great stuff, as always.

BTW, I get crushed by the Bird fans here, but in all honesty, could you rank Bird higher (if you had a GOAT list), in terms of carrer success, with solid criteria, over these players?

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe