The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#171 Predrag Stojakovic
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on borderline contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-5-2-1 on 46/40/89
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]here wasn

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]Occasionally, there are great ISH threads. This is one of them. Thanks for the ABA players being included. I myself believe their stats should be given equal weight, especially after 1972.[/QUOTE]

I read a lot of your ABA thread and like you, I am typically one to defend the ABA and the achievements of the players in it. That being said there are a few things I've decided over the past ten years during which I've done most of my ABA studies.

1) The forwards in the ABA were better than the forwards in the NBA. Right from the start with guys like Connie Hawkins and Spencer Haywood and of course later with Erving, Barnes, McGinnis, Kenon, Lucas, Issel etc. the ABA attracted most of the young athletic taller players to it's league.

2) The centers and guards were not nearly as good as the NBA's. Gilmore could have been a top 5 NBA center, the rest (Nater, Robbins, Beaty, Paultz, Caldwell Jones) couldn't have for more than a peak season here or there. The best ABA guards; Dampier, Silas, Larry and Jimmy Jones, Mack Calvin, Ron Boone, none of them were able to come close to equaling their ABA successes in the NBA.

3) Teams didn't play defense the same way, coaching was less evolved defensively and the ABA promoted a high scoring more open style of play. This probably made for great entertainment for the casual fan, but it skewed the numbers, especially scoring and rebounding quite a bit. Now the NBA's scoring and rebounding numbers are also a bit inflated from 1970-1976 because of expansion and the ABA weakening the talent pool, but still the effect is less pronounced than in the ABA. Looking at the top players who had prime seasons in both leagues back-to-back here's what you get.


Barry
72 ABA - 32-8-4
73 NBA - 22-9-5

McGinnis
75 ABA - 30-14-6-3
76 NBA - 23-12-5-3

Erving
76 ABA - 29-11-5-3-2
77 NBA - 22-9-4-2-1

Haywood
70 ABA - 30-20-2
71&72 NBA* - 25-13-2

*sat out most of 70-71

Hawkins
69 ABA - 30-12-4
70 NBA - 25-10-5

Issel
76 ABA - 23-11-2
77 NBA - 22-9-2

Gilmore
76 ABA - 25-16-3
77 NBA - 19-13-2

Knight
ABA 76 - 26-9-3
NBA 77 - 24-7-3

Beaty
NBA 69 - 22-11-2
ABA 71 - 23-16-2

Caldwell
NBA 70 - 21-5-3
ABA 71 - 21-7-4

Scott
72 ABA - 35-5-5
73 NBA - 25-4-6

Even in the case of Billy Cunningham, whose ABA and NBA numbers are almost equal from 72 to 73, he posted his NBA numbers on a last place team and his ABA ones of a first place team.

Let's acknowledge that a lot of the big scoring drop offs were because players went to more balanced teams, but that's sort of the point pertaining to the NBA...depth. Overall, I think what you get is pretty consistent evidence that the ABA was a slightly higher paced league with a little less depth of talent, less organized defense, but just as good if not greater high end star power at three of the five positions.

Thanks as always for your contributions and thoughts everyone, the more feedback the better the list gets (in most cases)

I forget all about Peja.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#169 Eugene William Shue
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on borderline playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-5-5 on 40/83
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE]fter starting his career in 1954, the first season of the shot clock era, Gene Shue spending two frustrating seasons in Philadelphia and New York. Having improved year after year, he finally got his chance with the Ft. Wayne Zollner Pistons during the 1956-57 season. After a season proving himself as a role player, the pass-first, defend first, shot second guard was a beloved teammate and eventually a very successful coach, turned into an all-star and stayed an all-star for five consecutive seasons, scoring 20 points, playing all-league caliber defense and a great all-around game. His line drive set shot and his one handed swinging scoop layup were his best offensive weapons and in Ft. Wayne and Detroit for the Pistons they came in handy. His teams however were mediocre however, paired with a combination of Bailey Howell, Walter Dukes, Bob Ferry and Don Ohl they struggled to win as much as they lost. During Shue

Excellent work, GOAT, as usual.

All of your threads should be compiled into a book. That's largely an untapped market :cheers:

Grandmamma was one of the biggest stars in the NBA when I started watching (1991), and turned into my generation's what-if story. :facepalm

[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Excellent work, GOAT, as usual.

All of your threads should be compiled into a book. That's largely an untapped market :cheers:

Grandmamma was one of the biggest stars in the NBA when I started watching (1991), and turned into my generation's what-if story. :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Thanks, one day. I want to do a real good job though, I don't want to produce bad art. I'd have to stop critiquing everything.

I love seeing so many of you guys from the first thread five years ago popping in to say hello. Wish people like you were around here posting content and comments more often.

Thanks again for the compliment and support and rest assured that until the day you do me the honor of buying my book, all my scraps and half thoughts will be filtered for bull[COLOR="Navy"]s[/COLOR]hit here on ish.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#167 Leonard Eugene Robinson
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 11 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on borderline playoff teams/#3/#4 on good teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-11-2-1 on 49/67
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]P[/SIZE]erception is a funny thing. Leonard Robinson is actually a friendly guy. Likeable, personable, and even his game on the court was one more of finesse than fury. Yet, for reasons more involving rookie hazing than actually fitting the man, he became Truck Robinson. Though he was reluctant to embrace the name, as he became a star playing the game his way, he saw the benefits of people, even players, perceiving him another; "At first, I didn't like (Truck), but later on I was getting away with stuff at my size that I shouldn't have been getting away with, just with that name. I'd never been in fights or anything like that in the NBA. You just get a reputation. New guys come in the league, young guys, and I'd see their eyes from watching me on TV, and they'd say 'That's the Truck.' When I went to the hole, guys would just move out of the way." In eleven pro seasons, Robinson played for five teams in five cities and made an impact everywhere he went. Starting in Washington, with the Bullets, Robinson was a reserve forward. In his rookie season of 1974-75 they went to the NBA Finals. The eighth man, Robinson was largely left out of the playoff rotation. The next season he became the first man of the bench, averaged 11-7, but in the playoffs again saw his minutes dwindle. By 1976-77 season it was clear Robinson was going to be an impact player. He averaged 16 points 9 rebounds in 41 games, but the Bullets were committed to Unseld and Hayes up front and shipped Robinson to the Hawks for guard Tom Henderson. Robinson played out the season and signed a free agent contract with the Jazz. In his one full season in New Orleans Robinson had a career year paired alongside Pete Maravich. He averaged 23 points and 16 rebounds, earned all-NBA first team honors even, but the Jazz stunk. 39-43, a bummer. He was traded the next season to Phoenix. The Suns had begun to rise in 1976, making the NBA finals by surprise. Now they needed a rebounder. Robinson had averaged more rebounds than the Suns top two glass men in 1978 so he seemed like a nice fit. They gave up two first round picks and a couple scrubs and added Robinson to a core of guards Walter Davis, Paul Westphal and center Alvan Adams. In three and a half seasons with the Suns Robinson averaged 19 points and 11 rebounds, but dropped to 11 points and 8 rebounds in the playoffs. He did however make make his second all-star team and his only conference finals as a starter in 1979. After the 1982 season, Truck was traded to New York for fellow veteran Maurice Lucas. He played two seasons as a Knicks and retired in 1984. Paul Westphal remembers him as having earned his nickname rather he liked it or not. "I remember he was the kind of guy who never seemed to get tired. He was always there banging, getting rebounds, doing what he did best. He brought his lunch pail everyday."
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#166 Phillip Chenier
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-4-3-2
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE]nother player who had his career destroyed by injuries and never got to reach his full potential. Phil Chenier was a smooth but lightning quick high-flying guard who could score the ball in a variety of ways and shut down an opponent on defense. His long arms and great timing made him one of the league leaders in steals and best shot blocking guards of the era. His picturesque jump shot has made him a favorite of contemporary fans ever since. After being selected to the all-rookie team in 1972, Chenier made three all-star teams and was an all-NBA selection in 1975 when he averaged 22 points per game for the league's best team. His teammates describe him as one of the most skilled guys they ever played with and a top rate teammate. His battles with Walt Frazier, where he frequently held his own at least, show just how good a player he was and could have been for a long time. Though he humble conceds that Frazier was better and contends that they look more alike than they played alike, the two were often compared. And as this SI piece from the 1974 playoffs shows, Chenier could get the better on occasion. “And the Bullet guards were conspiring meanwhile to give Monroe and Frazier a lot of unexpected pain. Chenier's contribution was mostly in the form of his precise jumper on offense and repeated blocks of Frazier's jumpers on defense. By the end of the fourth game Chenier had outscored Walt by 23 points. In the second game he held him to just six, and in the third, Frazier left the Garden court to the loudest boos of his career.” Few people have any idea just how good Phil Chenier was. It's rare to hear folks recall just how easily he could drop 30 points on an opponent. Effortlessly, smooth, seemingly without breaking a sweat. Chenier was the key to the Bullets back court during the middle seasons between Monroe and Dandridge the former and later perimeter stars for the Bullets during the Unseld years. In Chenier's five healthy seasons as a starter the Bullets never won fewer than 47 games. In 1975 they won 60 games and advanced to the finals before being upset by the Warriors. Chenier was at his best in the postseason where he scored at least 24 points twenty times, 30 points seven times and 35 points five times. Sadly a back injury early in the 1977-78 season forced Chenier to sit out during the Bullets run to the finals that season where they finally won a title. Though he wasn't on the court for the much of the season, it's fitting he received a ring as he was one of a major reasons for the Bullets success in the seventies. For the last twenty five years Chenier could be heard as a broadcaster for the Bullets, I mean Wizards. No I mean Bullets.
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I made a thread a few years back about Johnson, the already mentioned Derrick Coleman and the soon to be mentioned Shawn Kemp. How those 3 guys were the future of the power forward position after Chuck and Mailman came in and wrecked havoc in the mid to late 80s.

And all three of them will end up being trivia questions years from now. They're still somewhat fresh in fans minds as it's only been ten or so years since they've been gone.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I made a thread a few years back about Johnson, the already mentioned Derrick Coleman and the soon to be mentioned Shawn Kemp. How those 3 guys were the future of the power forward position after Chuck and Mailman came in and wrecked havoc in the mid to late 80s.

And all three of them will end up being trivia questions years from now. They're still somewhat fresh in fans minds as it's only been ten or so years since they've been gone.[/QUOTE]

I remember [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241629"]that thread[/URL]

Here was my response then as it is today...

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The beginning of the entitlement generation. Too much money too quickly. Most of the stars of that generation including these guys were well past their prime before 30. A big part of why guys like Jordan, Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Stockton, Malone etc. stayed dominant for so long.

Add to the list Kenny Anderson, Vin Baker, Isiah Rider, Jimmy Jackson etc.

But the three you mentioned were the best examples. What great starts. Johnson broke down physically, Coleman mentally and Kemp psychologically, but they all broke down. I'd agree that Coleman seemed the most destined for stardom. It seemed only a matter of time before he, not Kemp joined Barkley and Malone as the games best power forwards.

Perhaps their choices of shoe contracts should have clued us in. Kemp signed with Reebok, thus he had staying power and peaked pretty high, but was never the best. Johnson, a converse star, peaked with the company and faded from the market just as fast. And Coleman...he signed with British Knights. The cycle of bad choices had begun before we even realized it.[/QUOTE]

Truck Robinson, too me he seemed like an Otis Thorpe/Charles Oakley type player. Except it looked like he scored more than those guys.

But maybe he was more of the Maurice Lucas/Jeff Ruland role?

The mid 70s NBA is the least talked about (besides the pre-shot clock era.)

You just named 3 players, Truck and the Phil's (Smith and Chenier) who very seldom get bought up if at all.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#165 Gilbert Jay Arenas
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 11 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #1 option on borderline playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 24-4-6-2 on 42-36-82
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]o call Gilbert Arenas weird might be selling him short. To me, he

I think Arenas was on his way to a hall of fame career. A difference one game makes. On the night he was injured vs the Bobcats he did not start. Why? He got caught in traffic and was late to shoot around for the first time in his career. Eddie Jordan punished him and benched him for the start of the game. Upon entering the game Gerald Wallace runs into his knee and that was the end of Agent Zero as we know it.

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#163 Joakim Simon Noah
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 7 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on borderline contender/#1 on playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 12-11-3-1-2 on 50/73
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]S[/SIZE]ome players are just winners. From his time at Florida a few things have been readily apparent about Joakim Noah; first, he is anything but orthodox, two, he has a lot of fun playing basketball and competing, and three, he’s a winner. Billy Donovon, his college coach, describes why: "He's just a great competitor, teammate, warrior. He's about all the right things." From his rookie year, the Bulls showed steady improvement until Derrick Rose’s injury in 2011 derailed them. At first he was a role player. An energy guy getting rebounds, playing defense and scoring when the opportunities were there only. He developed into an all-NBA defender in 2011 and since the Rose injury he’s taken on the role of leader and becoming an MVP candidate. He’s posted his best two statistical seasons across the board the last two years as he expanded his game including an outstanding 5.4 assists per game last year, easily tops among centers. He was even named defensive player of the year in 2014. What makes Noah so good is what makes him so unique. He thrives at the parts of the game few players pay adequate attention to: Defensive positioning, ball security, setting screens, offensive rebounding, passing, Noah plays the game like a throwback. But he’s also a little out there, just ask his teammates, like Carlos Boozer; "He's different; he grew up different, he's a very free spirit and it works for him." Or as Taj Gibson put it simply; “He’s a weirdo.” His side spinning jump shot, dubbed “the Tornado”, also weird has evolved into a major weapon from 18 feet and in. His post game has improved and his role in the Bulls offense last year was even larger then some all-star point guards. (in terms of touches) If the Bulls ever get their current core healthy, it’s gonna be real exciting. Without a title in the NBA so far, Noah is still driven to continue improving. He seems committed to the Bulls and is resolved that all these struggles will only make it sweeter. "Everything that we're going through is just going to make us enjoy our championship ring that much more when we get it," Noah said. "And there's no doubt in my mind that we'll get it."
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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#162 Blake Austin Griffin
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 4 (4)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2 on middle of the pack playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 21-10-4-1-1 on 53/64
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE] run of three straight modern players who rather conveniently finished 4th, 5th, 6th in last years MVP voting. These represent some of the games best young players and especially in the case of Blake Griffin, most exciting players as well. After being drafted first overall by the Los Angeles Franchise not called the Lakers in 2009 and missing his entire rookie season with injury, it seemed the Clipper curse would live on. But the next year fate, and David Stern stepped in. The league voided a trade that would have sent Chris Paul to the Lakers and instead he ended up with the Clippers, who were transformed from afterthought to possible contenders. Griffin who had won the rookie of the year in 2011 Dunking his way through a losing season but establishing himself as a marketable star with his Dunk Contest performance. He made the all-star that season and has each year of his career so far. His resume gets even more impressive when you add two MVP top tens (3rd last year) and three second team all-NBA selections already. In the playoffs he’s had his issues, being bullied by Zach Randolph in 2012, playing hurt, but ineffectively in the 2013 playoffs, but last year (2013-14) he took a big step. Averaging 24/10/4 and shooting 53% from the field while topping 70% from the line for the first time. He had his best playoffs, but the Clippers still came up short in the second round against Oklahoma City. After the series, Thunder coach Scott Brooks paid Griffin a compliment : "When Chris Paul went out, you saw that he took his game to another level. You also saw his leadership. It's one thing to put numbers up but you have to put numbers up by leading and helping your team win, and that's what he did. He won a lot of games without him. He's going to be an MVP candidate for many years. He's a young player that has improved every year he's been in the league, and that's what you want your players to do." He’s not just a dunker anymore, I hope the league is on notice, because so long as Blake and Chris Paul are in LA the Clippers are going to be a force.
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[QUOTE=T_L_P]Really interested to see if/where you place Brad Daugherty![/QUOTE]

Wait no longer...

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[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#161 Brad Daugherty
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[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 8 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on middle of the pack playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-10-4-1 on 54/76
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[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]W[/SIZE]atching Brad Daugherty growing up I could help but think