[QUOTE=DukeDelonte13]Memo to the rest of the NBA fans:
[B]We just had Wiggins and Lebron fall into our lap. Nothing could detract from this offseason.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well... at least nothing [I][B]yet[/B][/I].
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[QUOTE=DukeDelonte13]Memo to the rest of the NBA fans:
[B]We just had Wiggins and Lebron fall into our lap. Nothing could detract from this offseason.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well... at least nothing [I][B]yet[/B][/I].
[QUOTE=DukeDelonte13]I'd i just want the cavs to maneuver for a capable defensive center.[/QUOTE]
And Dieng is that guy.
It's perfect for both teams.
The Wolves badly want Martin included. The Cavs should badly want Dieng.
Not hard...put them both in and it's a fair deal.
Wiggins/Bennett/filler/pick for Love/Martin/Dieng
You get that young defensive center the Cavs badly need, you get a tolerable contract in Martin that helps in a bench role behind Waiters, the Cavs keep cap flexibility and picks as well.
Wolves get the best haul, by far, any team has gotten in a situation like this.
^^^You seem incredibly high on Dieng. I haven't exactly studied him all that closely. I know he had a great 15-game run while Pek went down, but he also averaged just 13 minutes per game last season.
I'm still a bit skeptical that he's enough to turn a horrendous trade for the Cavs into a good one.
So 30 more days of hearing either Chicago or Cleveland getting Love talk??
Wonder if those two extra days matter between Wiggins signing and McDermott/Mirotic
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]^^^You seem incredibly high on Dieng. I haven't exactly studied him all that closely. I know he had a great 15-game run while Pek went down, but he also averaged just 13 minutes per game last season.
I'm still a bit skeptical that he's enough to turn a horrendous trade for the Cavs into a good one.[/QUOTE]
Yea...I'm extremely high on him for not only his play, but what he offers at his price.
You won't find that in this league.
Also, in my trade...it wouldn't be horrendous even if you really like Wiggins/Bennett like you do.
Because you'd only be giving up 1 pick and wouldn't be facilitating the Barea contract movement either.
You'd still have 2 first rounders this coming season...which, contrary to popular belief, really matter via building from within or for trade purposes.
Get this ****ing trade over with already I'm tired of hearing all these rumors
[QUOTE=DMAVS41].
Not hard...put them both in and it's a fair deal.
Wiggins/Bennett/filler/pick for Love/Martin/Dieng
[/QUOTE]
Except other pieces might need to be given up to get another team involved and take on contracts? Love/Martin/Deing is like 23 mill. Wiggins/Bennet is like 10-11? What other fillers can they include to get a deal done, not really sure what Clevelands cap situation/contracts look like.
I'm not a cap genius but seems like a 3rd team is going to really need to help them out if they want to get a deal like the one you posted done. Guess teams do stuff for a 2nd round pick all the time but nobody from the East will be rushing out to get that deal done.
[QUOTE]Yea...you just don't get team building.[/QUOTE]
You...just dont know as much as you think you do.
And to be fair none of us do on issues like how a team comes together long term.
Ive been reading people make dumb complaints like this that amount to nothing for a long time.
Building a great team historically is about the centerpieces. The rest falls into line. You talking about signing largely irrelevant pieces who wont make a significant bottom line difference.
The Cavs go from a low 30 win team...add Lebron....and Kevin Love...
You are worried about how many Ike Diogus you can add to play 8 minutes off the bench.
Kevin Martin....is an underpaid extremly high end role player in a league where people put up 16/6 and get max deals.
JJ is an expiring contract in a league that kills for them. He will be gone by midseason or kept to reduce the cap hit the next summer.
The rest....it really really really doesnt matter.
I assure you..you do not have more information on the middling role players in history and how great teams come together than I do.
You are not seeing anything anyone else cant.
What you are doing is what people on forums do. Making a big deal out of shit that doesnt matter.
Did the Heat have their team complete in 2011? No.
They make 4 finals and win 2 rings?
Yes.
throwing an immense amount of talent at the wall....really does work...when the talent fits together and you play in a conference that offers little resistance.
Love/Kyrie/Lebron fit together like few trios in NBA history would.
The team is going to win at least...52 games...likely 55-60...potentially more.
Title?
Who knows?
The spurs didnt even make the finals for 6 years and didnt win for 7 years and people hold them up as the team building ideal.
The goal is a team that has what it needs to play with anyone on any given night and make a fight of every series.
Deal gets done....that mission is accomplished.
Even if they have to wait and sign a 9th man nobody wants next year instead of next month.
History is full of great teams built off immense top of the lineup talent and guys nobody would even know if they didnt play on those teams.
Teams like the spurs come along much less often. How many we talking about?
Late 70s sonics....early 70s Knicks....mid 2000s Pistons?
Immense talent + some guys has never been in as good a position to work as its been in this leagues east.
Derrick Rose going to at least 2012 form and Wade maybe going to 2011 level is probably all that keeps the Cavs from moonwalking to the finals where anything can happen...and you are acting like the trade would be a disaster.
This goes down in the way you are so scared of....season starts the team murders the east on the way to 58 wins...they win the title or they dont.
And if they dont it wont make it bad team building any more than the Spurs losing in 2013 made their way wrong.
All it will mean is many teams can win in any given season.
But one will.
Get your team in position to make a run at it...
You did your job as a team builder.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]^^^You seem incredibly high on Dieng. I haven't exactly studied him all that closely. I know he had a great 15-game run while Pek went down, but he also averaged just 13 minutes per game last season.
I'm still a bit skeptical that he's enough to turn a horrendous trade for the Cavs into a good one.[/QUOTE]
Well if the trade is going to happen you might as well get a promising young center thrown in.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You...just dont know as much as you think you do.
[/QUOTE]
Nah, it's that you don't get it.
You aren't looking at the specific roster you are building.
Martin is a high end bench player on certain teams. On a team that has horrible guard defense and weak defense at pf and potentially weak defense at center? He's not a high end anything...he's eating up valuable money that is better spent elsewhere.
Things like that...that you seem incapable of understanding...are the point.
And yet again you assume that the Cavs can't do anything else.
You make it sound like they are stuck with Love or nothing. You could not be more wrong. The Cavs could wait. They could see how this team looks. They could make smaller moves and feast on teams looking to shed players for young assets/picks.
The entire league is open to them....
And this shit does matter. Winning the title is really ****ing hard....and winning the title with minus defenders at nearly every position other than small forward (again...aging Lebron that doesn't want to have to use up a ton of energy here)...isn't winning shit.
58 wins in a horrid conference? Sure...then it's a loss in the conference finals...or finals.
Also, please stop comparing prime Wade to what the Cavs would have. Also, Bosh made it work because he can play center. Love can't. Team building matters here.
And I'm not sure you've actually watched Kyrie play. He actually doesn't fit that well next to Lebron. This just makes me think you really don't know what you seem so certain of. Kyrie is a shit defender and likes the ball in his hands. He's not a great spot up shooter and he straight up has sucked on defense to date in his career.
Lebron and Love fit perfectly together...Kyrie does not.
I'm not say the Cavs would be bad or something...just that if they are willing to move that much. They need to do better and address actual needs. Maybe I'm hugely under-rating Love...and I'll eat crow if this goes down and they run off a dynasty without getting better defensively in the process. But I find it hard to believe that someone like you (who isn't that high on Love to begin with iirc) would be in favor of a deal like this that leaves gaping holes on the roster that are going to be tough to plug given the circumstances.
Shit...I'd rather go get Larry Sanders and Middelton...with some assets the Cavs have than gut the team for Love.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nah, it's that you don't get it.
You aren't looking at the specific roster you are building.
Martin is a high end bench player on certain teams. On a team that has horrible guard defense and weak defense at pf and potentially weak defense at center? He's not a high end anything...he's eating up valuable money that is better spent elsewhere.
Things like that...that you seem incapable of understanding...are the point.
And yet again you assume that the Cavs can't do anything else.
You make it sound like they are stuck with Love or nothing. You could not be more wrong. The Cavs could wait. They could see how this team looks. They could make smaller moves and feast on teams looking to shed players for young assets/picks.
The entire league is open to them....
And this shit does matter. Winning the title is really ****ing hard....and winning the title with minus defenders at nearly every position other than small forward (again...aging Lebron that doesn't want to have to use up a ton of energy here)...isn't winning shit.
58 wins in a horrid conference? Sure...then it's a loss in the conference finals...or finals.
Also, please stop comparing prime Wade to what the Cavs would have. Also, Bosh made it work because he can play center. Love can't. Team building matters here.
And I'm not sure you've actually watched Kyrie play. He actually doesn't fit that well next to Lebron. This just makes me think you really don't know what you seem so certain of. Kyrie is a shit defender and likes the ball in his hands. He's not a great spot up shooter and he straight up has sucked on defense to date in his career.
Lebron and Love fit perfectly together...Kyrie does not.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
KBlaze888555 :facepalm
[QUOTE=hawksdogsbraves]Well if the trade is going to happen you might as well get a promising young center thrown in.[/QUOTE]
It would cushion the blow but I'm certainly not going to be doing cartwheels. Dieng is also pretty old for a second-year player... 24.
What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....
Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.
When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.
The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.
Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.
"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.
The options arent...perfection...and failure,.
Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.
The rest is up to the basketball gods.
You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.
All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.
This trade would do that.
Making it a good trade.
Looking more and more like the Cavs are NOT trading Wiggins for Love, which as already stated, is the smart move for the long term.
"Trade wiggins now so that Bron is happy and won't leave!" - cried the eager beaver.
The Cavs front office doesn't give a F'k what Bron wants. He burned them once, and they sure as hell won't put themselves in position to get burned again, and are therefore covering their bases very well.
If he wants to stay, so be it. But the Cavs aren't banking on his word, and are (as they should) preparing themselves for anything.
If you're wondering what this strategy is called, it's called not being a dumb ass.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]What you dont seem to understand...which is my point....
Is that the worst case scenerio(of course barring injury) is an incredible team that fails to win the title.
When that is your worst case...nothing you did was disastrous or worthy of your front office being called out.
The Cavs from what I can see have done a good job especially looking forward at their cap situation.
Youre pretty much watching someone hit the powerball the week after its 500 million and someone else won the big one and acting like it was a bad outcome.
"Only" getting 90 million is not failing. And vastly improving your team isnt either...even if you *gasp* dont win the title every year.
The options arent...perfection...and failure,.
Success...is the team contending for and possibly winning a title.
The rest is up to the basketball gods.
You do all this hating on what that team could be the right 2 ankles roll(Say...Noah and Westbrook) they could go 16-3 in the playoffs.
All you can do is put your team in position to fight and hope you ride out the storm better than the 4-5 others always in contention.
This trade would do that.
Making it a good trade.[/QUOTE]
Dude...they are already in that position.
I could say that exact same thing if the Cavs trade for Larry Sanders and Middelton with Waiters and a pick.
Worst case scenario is you have an incredible team that fails to win the title. This trade does that.
Irving/Delladova
Wiggins/Allen
Lebron/Miller/Middelton
Thompson/Bennett
Sanders/Andy/Haywood
They'd have all their flexibility, keep the Haywood contract, actually address the huge need of defense at guard and center. And they potentially have a great stretch 4 nice rebounder in Bennett on the roster.
That isn't an incredible team with a bright future that worst case scenario is going to rape the East and fail to win the title over the coming years?
If Kevin Love was prime Dirk or KG or Duncan. I'd agree with you...but I'm assuming you don't think that Love is that.