Phil Jackson on Scottie Pippen's as a leader

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]

MJ had an insane usage rate in the playoffs--easily the highest in history. Of course he would get assists when he had the ball so much. [/QUOTE]

Pippen had the ball in his hands more in terms of clock time than Jordan did. Usage rate only measures FGA + TO. So of course a guy who takes more shots is going to have a higher usage rate. Doesn't mean that he had the ball in his hands any more than another player did.

Jordan's USG rate was higher than Lebron's, yet Lebron has the ball in his hands WAY more than Jordan ever did.

christ op, you are so bad. go outside - summer is almost over.

[QUOTE=Optimus Prime]"Scottie chose to not go on the court last night for his own specific reason."

A "leader" that asks out of the most crucial time of a playoff game?

:kobe:

This campaign to put Pippen on some pedestal and tear Jordan down is ridiculous. Especially considering it's coming from so called "Bulls fans". Pippen was a great player in his own way, but he's not on the same level as Jordan and other players in the "best of all time" discussion.[/QUOTE]
Seriously, rep to all of this ...

Pulled himself from a game. Could you imagine MJ, Bird, Magic, Isiah, or Kobe doing this? Bron has pulled himself due to cramps but at least that's painful.

Scottie was a leader, but Michael Jordan was the leader of the Bulls. Your best player almost has to be your leader. Jackson describes Willis Reed as the "unquestioned leader" of the Knicks and then goes on to talk about Bill Bradley as a leader or when Red Holzman came to him and tried to make him be more of a leader.

Same thing with Jordan and Pippen.

I don't have as much as you, but here are some more thoughts from Phil on leadership and the Bulls...


"Michael didn't really want to be the team leader but his inspirational play thrust him into that capacity. Scottie and Bill Cartwright were the unsung leaders, talking privately to the players, helping them accept their roles."

"Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence"

"When things were going bad off the court the players turned often to Scottie, who was well liked by all. But when things were going bad on the court, they always looked to Michael. He was our leader even if he didn't always want to be, because he had to be."

Jackson has often said there should be as many leaders as possible on a team, I think that's what the Pippen stuff is. Jackson takes a lot of pride in Pippen's growth as a player, feels responsible for it to a degree and has a sense of "paternal pride" as he's said before.

[QUOTE=diamenz]christ op, you are so bad. go outside - summer is almost over.[/QUOTE]
Co sign ... Dude has been way to.active on the boards with his not subtle MJ smear campaign

[QUOTE]Scottie was a leader, but Michael Jordan was the leader of the Bulls. Your best player almost has to be your leader.[/QUOTE]

There are 30 teams in the league. The guy who is best at putting the ball through the hoop is the best leader in all 30 cases? If Barack Obama or Chris Christie joined a NBA team as a 12th man they wouldn't emerge as a team leader?

What is the source for your quotes? What you posted is not mutually exclusive with the OP. What Jackson said--and other sources, i.e. teammates--back this up is Pippen directed the offense, defense and was the guy players turned to for help, advice, support, inspiration, etc. As for who "THE" leader was no one really cares. It is funny how MJ has to presented as #1 in every regard. Jackson said Pippen and Jordan were equally important in terms of leadership. Rosen said it was Pippen. A team has 12-15 players so inevitably there will be a couple of leaders (i.e. Kobe and Fisher on the Lakers. Usually, or at least ideally, they will perform different leadership functions. Pippen and Jordan's leadership styles complemented each other perfectly (Cartwright also was a key leader and Dave Corzine in the 80's--he was the guy young Pippen and Grant turned to).

Pippen also played 8 seasons without MJ and was a leader on his teams without MJ, as Jackson noted. He was a leader in Chicago and then in Portland. He did the same leadership things in Portland as he did in Chicago. Leaders are leaders wherever they go.

I would like to see more hard evidence on MJ's leadership and how it worked. Maybe a :mad: MJ stan should do a thread about it like I did here. I agree he was an important leader but I do think his leadership is overrated. The guy refused to talk to some players. He was derogatory toward others. Those are not effective leadership techniques.

[QUOTE]Jackson has often said there should be as many leaders as possible on a team, I think that's what the Pippen stuff is. Jackson takes a lot of pride in Pippen's growth as a player, feels responsible for it to a degree and has a sense of "paternal pride" as he's said before.[/QUOTE]

What will the rationale be to diminish his teammates' comments on his leadership? What is being suggested by several posters here is Jackson is saying these things but does not really believe them. It is a natural defense mechanism to dismiss the validity of unwelcome information. Again, that is where Charley Rosen is important. Rosen is going by private conversations over the years with his friend Jackson, not public statements.

[QUOTE]Dude has been way to.active on the boards with his not subtle MJ smear campaign[/QUOTE]

You have more posts in a year than I do in five years. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]I don't care if MJ stans dislike me. Of course they won't. I've been routinely exposing them for 5 years. What I take offense to is the "fake Pippen fan" attacks. They have accused me of being a faux Pippen fan my entire time here (well, other than my first 2 months or so when I was pro-Mike). For YEARS they said I was a closet Kobe stan. YEARS. They said I was Fatal9. Now, in 2014, the same clowns are saying I am a closet LeBron stan and Pauk. :roll:



Yeah MJ was an important leader. He and Cartwright are why the thread title says "A leader" not "THE leader" because there were multiple leaders on Chicago--like there are on most teams.



I've posted several threads on Rose, Shaq and various other topics over the years. I also am often in Bulls threads (MJ stans have never identified which TEAM I root for if it isn't Chicago :oldlol: ).[/QUOTE]
Link me to a thread you expose any legitimate MJ fan. You never exposed anyone.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Co sign ... Dude has been way to.active on the boards with his not subtle MJ smear campaign[/QUOTE]

the irony. :oldlol: i've exposed your dumb ass for having MULTIPLE accounts on here.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8047584#post8047584[/url]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]jordan was the best scorer on the team. no doubt.[/QUOTE]
Best player idiot

[QUOTE=LeBird]It's hard to get a discussion off the ground when the same group of stans are systematically trying to derail his threads. If they truly didn't care or thought he had an agenda, they'd just let his threads be and die if they're that uninteresting.

It's the threat that they're relevant, true and intelligent that causes them to try to attack him and kill the thread before it starts - before anyone actually gets to engage in the discussion and, you know, possibly give more credit to Pippen for those successes.
[/QUOTE]

There's definitely a way to structure a post if your intent is to avoid stanning and foster legitimate discussion - granted a lot of that starts outside of the thread itself and is frankly out of reach for the OP at this point. Someone like Da_Realist, GOAT, ShaqAttack could basically post this exact same thread, structure it in a different way, and the responses would be entirely different. You could probably even get some of the die hard Jordan fans to start engaging in a positive Pippen discussion of that was truly your intent.

[QUOTE]This thread has gone 5 pages and there's yet to be an intelligent reply from anyone disagreeing with the theme of the thread.[/QUOTE]

I mean what is there to disagree with really? There's hardly a more credible source than Phil Jackson and his point has been backed up by many others as well.

Mj led the Bulls in asts in 89,90,91,93 playoffs.:applause: In the playoffs Mj shown what the deal was. In 91 he had his Lowe st usage rate yet still outpaced Pippen.:applause:

[QUOTE]There's definitely a way to structure a post if your intent is to avoid stanning and foster legitimate discussion - granted a lot of that starts outside of the thread itself and is frankly out of reach for the OP at this point. Someone like Da_Realist, GOAT, ShaqAttack could basically post this exact same thread, structure it in a different way, and the responses would be entirely different. You could probably even get some of the die hard Jordan fans to start engaging in a positive Pippen discussion of that was truly your intent.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: The OP is basically just a series of quotes.
Care to show us some examples of Pippen threads where that occurred? Thanks in advance. I look forward to it.

The fact is this happens in practically every Pippen thread. (Do a quick Google search) Even when I rarely posted in 2012 and 2013--or before I even registered in 2009 (I was a lurker for a while). As soon as someone makes a positive comment about Pippen MJ stans have to get there to knock down that comment. There was a "Scottie Pippen appreciation thread" years ago that went 13 pages because of this dynamic. If you are going to continue to accuse others of trolling, at least do your homework. I don't recall you posting at all before today let alone being in any Pippen thread. You are citing Da_Realist as a Pippen fan. He is pro-Pippen but he is a MJ fan, not a Pippen fan.

It is interesting you mention ShaqAttack. He was on my side in numerous Pippen threads. It also is funny you are silent on half a dozen MJ stans proceeding to rip Pippen in this thread.

Kshutts1 is a Pippen fan and echoed my thinking on this stuff a few days ago. He just isn't as vocal about it or aggressively anti-MJ but he too said he gets annoyed by people claiming MJ won by himself and the diminishing of Pippen's role.

So who am I "really" a fan of?

Patting on the back will never be an equal type of leadership to leading by example and harsh words.
That's what champions are made of

Great post OP.

Without Pippen the Bulls don't win all those championships. Jordan was a dick on the court, there are some wild stories, ask Bill Cartwright. Anyways, Pip was the emotional leader, MJ verbally directed and is obviously GOAT, but Pip really did a lot for his team as far as uplifting and encouraging teammates, setting the tone defensively and guarding the opposing teams best player every night. Scottie was the glue.

[IMG]http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/michael-jordan-scottie-pippen-flu-game.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]There are 30 teams in the league. The guy who is best at putting the ball through the hoop is the best leader in all 30 cases? If Barack Obama or Chris Christie joined a NBA team as a 12th man they wouldn't emerge as a team leader? [/quote]

Of course not, they are not good at basketball. They might bring some qualities of leadership to the table. Same reason they wouldn't be a good coach. In my experience as a coach and player the best teams almost always have their best player as leader. Not always vocal, but they follow.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What is the source for your quotes?[/quote]

One is from the Lazenby Book, one is from Sacred Hoops and the one about "emotional climate" is from Phil's comparrison of Kobe and MJ last year.


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock] What you posted is not mutually exclusive with the OP. What Jackson said--and other sources, i.e. teammates--back this up is Pippen directed the offense, defense and was the guy players turned to for help, advice, support, inspiration, etc. [/quote]

That's because Jordan was a dick. I agree with something you said the other night about "tearing people down" etc. like MJ was known to do. I think it's why he's failed as an executive over and over. Same with Isiah. But if he were winning titles as an executive he could still be a leader with that style.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]As for who "THE" leader was no one really cares. It is funny how MJ has to presented as #1 in every regard. Jackson said Pippen and Jordan were equally important in terms of leadership.[/quote]

I know, and I agree that they were, but you just posted a lot of quotes about Pippen's leadership. I was just qualifying the context of his type of leadership. Pip is not a guy who was gonna get in your face and Jordan was not a guy who was gonna be your buddy. They also had Bill Cartwright, a leader early on who was the best teacher on the team, that became his nickname. Cartwright is the guy who screamed and cried at Pippen with tears running down his face after the game four near disaster vs. the Knicks in '94. But just like how Jackson and Cartwright knew Pippen had to be their leader in '94 for them to get where they wanted, the same applies to Jordan when he was there.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock] Rosen said it was Pippen. A team has 12-15 players so inevitably there will be a couple of leaders (i.e. Kobe and Fisher on the Lakers. Usually, or at least ideally, they will perform different leadership functions. Pippen and Jordan's leadership styles complemented each other perfectly (Cartwright also was a key leader and Dave Corzine in the 80's--he was the guy young Pippen and Grant turned to). [/quote]

Should have read this before my response above, I guess we agree here.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]I would like to see more hard evidence on MJ's leadership and how it worked. Maybe a :mad: MJ stan should do a thread about it like I did here. I agree he was an important leader but I do think his leadership is overrated. The guy refused to talk to some players. He was derogatory toward others. Those are not effective leadership techniques.[/quote]

They can be. Kerr said he and Jordan's fist fight actually helped the teams chemistry. It's like how Kobe is a leader or Bird. They only tolerate greatness. That can be frustrating, but it reminds me oof my coaches growing up. I almost always thought they were assholes until the season was well on and I realized how much better I was getting because of the constant demands being put on me.

Like we both said, their styles of leadership complimented eachother, but as Telander indicates, and Jackson touches on in "Mind Games" I'm not sure Pippen was capable of doing what Jordan did. He was too nice of a person.


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What will the rationale be to diminish his teammates' comments on his leadership? What is being suggested by several posters here is Jackson is saying these things but does not really believe them. It is a natural defense mechanism to dismiss the validity of unwelcome information. Again, that is where Charley Rosen is important. Rosen is going by private conversations over the years with his friend Jackson, not public statements.[/quote]

Yeah people do that with quotes about Magic/Kareem Russell/Wilt, all the time. I do think the fact that guys liked Pippen and that Jordan got so much blame than so much credit for the teams success makes them more likely to stand up for Pippen, a sort of unsung hero on those teams in the moment more often than not. It's pretty clear MJ is an A-Hole, the type of guy who holds a grudge for 30+ years. It stands to reason that guys only compliment the type of player he was (that's undeniable) I probably wouldn't have much nice to say about him either after we were done playing together.