Bran needs a hot tub time machine to go back to 2007 and start over fresh. There's NOTHING he can do to catch up to, let alone surpass, MJ.
Oh, and there's a whole bunch of legends already ahead of him on the All-Time list that he's yet to pass.
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Bran needs a hot tub time machine to go back to 2007 and start over fresh. There's NOTHING he can do to catch up to, let alone surpass, MJ.
Oh, and there's a whole bunch of legends already ahead of him on the All-Time list that he's yet to pass.
It's interesting how most of non completely biased people here, agree that he needs either something really spectacular or simply doesn't have a chance. It's kinda sad because whatever you like him or not he did have GOAT potential.
And thinking of what would he need to do, just makes me appreciate Jordan's legacy more...
That ship sailed in 2007, is unfair? perhaps, but that is how it works
Probably lost that chance in 2011, but he had a chance for 8 years while he was in the league, the absolute majority of the players that enter the league know they won't be GOAT from the first summer league game they play.
It takes elite talent(once in a generation for your position), great work ethic and a lot of luck in terms of landing in a good spot right away or being drafted by a great organization that you can trust with building a contending team around you very soon.
If you look at players that came in the league after Jordan just on potential you can come up with a very short list of guys who had the talent to be GOAT one day.
Some of them landed in a bad spot(KG), didn't have the drive(VC), were great but still came up short(Duncan,Kobe and Shaq to some extent), some played at a level that would warrant being called the GOAT, but didn't sustain it for long enough(T-MAC).
Lebron is likely going to end up higher on the all-time list than all the guys I just named, but he won't be GOAT or at least consensus GOAT, the margin for error is so small if you want to surpass MJ who certainly has the accomplishments and is being hailed by the press all the time.
Only thing that can dethrone MJ is time and a supreme talent, but how long will that take, I don't know.
[QUOTE=navy]Pretty much. 5-6 rings wont put him above MJ to most, but some will say it does. I'd put him around 4-5th. Maybe 2-3 if the Kareem longevity is there.
7-8 rings and 7-8 FMVPs/MVPs though? Pedo will commit suicide trying to jump through hoops trying to explain how even with the failures he still won more. :oldlol: He will be the GOAT if he manages that, although realistically it is impossible.[/QUOTE]
He will likely tie MJ/Russell in MVP's next year--at age 30. He has an excellent chance at retiring with the most MVP's. The big question is how many rings he has. I think he needs to get to 4 at minimum and ideally 5.
:oldlol: it would be hilarious to see MJ fans react if LeBron gets into the GOAT conversation.
Look at these scenarios:
KAJ: 6 rings, 6 MVP's
MJ: 6 rings, 5 MVP's
Russell: 11 rings, 5 MVP's
Wilt: 2 rings, 4 MVP's
LeBron: 4 rings, 6 MVP's
LeBron: 5 rings, 7 MVP's
LeBron: 6 rings, 7 MVP's
LeBron: 4 rings, 7 MVP's
Unless LeBron finishes with 3 rings and 5 MVP's he will be right up there with the "Big 4." Even 3 rings and 5 MVP's would put him in 5th ahead of Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Hakeem. It would just relegate him to leading the second group versus joining the first group. LeBron has a chance for having great longevity as well, which would separate him from his peers too, other than KAJ.
People who are citing isolated cases, i.e. the 11' Finals are being unrealistic. That is not how history works. No one is defined by their worst; you are judged by your best. Look at how the warts have been all but forgotten regarding the resumes of other legends, in whatever sport. No one has a perfect record. LeBron is nit-picked, as are others to a lesser extent, because he is a current player. Over time that will fade. He put up 18/7/7 in the Finals. People have won FMVP with those type of numbers, i.e. Leonard with 18/6/2 just this year. He underperformed but every player has done that at some point in the Finals or another major series like the conference finals. There inevitably will be bad points during the course of a lengthy career.
[QUOTE]That ship sailed in 2007, is unfair? perhaps, but that is how it works[/QUOTE]
Why? Because he lost in the Finals? MJ was losing in the first round at that age. KAJ missed the playoffs in his prime. Wilt was on a 33 win team in his prime. Yet making the Finals is this indelible blot?
Too late.
Bird = 7 (1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1988, 1990, 1991)
Duncan = 6 (2001, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2012)
Kareem = 5 (1973, 1974, 1977, 1981, 1986)
Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)
Wilt = 5 (1961, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1973)
Oscar = 4 (1962, 1965, 1973, 1974)
Magic = 4 (1981, 1986, 1990, 1996)
Lebron = 3 (2009, 2010, 2011, 2013*)
Hakeem = 2 (1985, 1987)
Kobe = 2 (2004, 2011)
Russell = 1 (1958)
[B]MJ = 0[/B]
*Jesus saves
[IMG]http://s1.postimg.org/cnuldcw5r/Simple_Way_to_Old_883x1024.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE]Too late.[/QUOTE]
So your argument is it is somehow commendable to lose with a lower seed than to have a better season and achieve a similar, or even greater result? According to that list, going 40-42 and losing as the #8 seed in the first round>going 66-16 and losing in the ECF. Which team had the better year?
[QUOTE]Shaq = 5 (1994, 1995, 2004, 2005, 2010)[/QUOTE]
Shaq 94' is a great example. His team won 50 games (an improvement from 41 in Shaq's rookie year and 21 before Shaq got there). Indiana won 47--and was a superior, experienced team that got to Game 7 of the ECF and was in the ECF again the following year. Yet somehow that series loss is a black mark on Shaq's resume? That argument does not makes sense imo.
Lebron never can be GOAT
2/5
6/6
Ots ompossible
Unless he cna somehow 5peat
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Yet somehow that series loss is a black mark [/QUOTE]
No. But he is out of the GOAT talk.
MJ's career was perfect.
Considering what people are saying here, it seems like LeBron is at the same place where he was when he entered the league, meaning he would need to win 6+ times with CLE to be considered on Jordan's level... With 5-6 FMVPs... Only thing is he now has like 6 (?) Years to do it....
When you have the most unblemished record on the grandest stage, well, you usually are considered the GOAT. And that's not even including all other accolades.
We're talking about a guy who took his game to another level to win a championship.
As of now, LBJ has a losing record in the Finals. Yes its a great and impressive feat to get there but twice now you have underperformed vastly in those occurrences. One being just an absolute no show where people were wondering what happened to you.
I mean there really is probably a less than 5% chance he can do it. But to me and many others, that perfect championship record means a lot. Its why people Montana > Brady. Means something.
[QUOTE=mehyaM24]win 2-3 more championships. he's already got the stats (highest PER in postseason history) and accolades (4 MVPs). dude just needs more chips.
1 ring in cleveland would catapult him into top 3 range. easily.[/QUOTE]
just to add to this..as long as bron plays at the level he's at currently, and the cavs win AT LEAST 2 rings, the media will run with the GOAT moniker.
with 2 chips, i personally would still rank him behind kareem and russell. with 3? he's the GOAT, imo.
[QUOTE=ballinhun8]When you have the most unblemished record on the grandest stage, well, you usually are considered the GOAT. And that's not even including all other accolades.
We're talking about a guy who took his game to another level to win a championship.
As of now, LBJ has a losing record in the Finals. Yes its a great and impressive feat to get there but twice now you have underperformed vastly in those occurrences. [B]One being just an absolute no show where people were wondering what happened to you.[/B]
I mean there really is probably a less than 5% chance he can do it. But to me and many others, that perfect championship record means a lot. Its why people Montana > Brady. Means something.[/QUOTE]
18/7/7 for the series with a trip-dub is hardly an "absolute no show."
dbl post
I think when you look at the overall competition from this era to jordans era, you can notice how they contrast. Today, competition is tough, players train their entire lives with the most highest degree of technology and info. Back then, although it was tough, competition was easier to a certain extent where there wasn't a high intensity compared to today. Athletes are stronger, faster, tougher today and would have a field day back then. People won't qualify lebron as GOAT based on these principles that jordan has set back then. The game has changed, we can't expect lebron to earn 6 rings in a superstar era, where guys back then have no chance in.