Jordans getting kicked out of the top 10.............................................

[QUOTE=KBaller33]MJ really messed up by retiring over and over again. He could've made his GOAT status more and more untouchable had he played straight from '84-'03. Maybe he wouldn't had lasted untill '03, but he could've had an even better career had he played basketball from '84 to '99 or 2000.[/QUOTE]

Yes he did. I think realistically had MJ started in 84 and not retired, he'd have played through to 2000 or 2001. What we can only speculate on is how much his body would have held up without the various retirements, but other than his second year( broken foot) MJ was very durable, typically playing 80 games a season and there wasn't any reason to think he'd have succumbed to major injuries especially considering his game transitioned further and further away from the basket as he got older. MJ's game aged as gracefully as possible for a player known as a highflying slasher in his youth/peak.

What we can reasonably speculate is that MJ probably left at least another mvp, ring( I don't see why they wouldn't win in 94 with MJ, prime pip, Kukoc, armstrong, Grant), finals mvp, two scoring titles and challenged Kareem's scoring total, on the table by leaving the game in his prime and again at 35. He was slipping by 98, but still potent and clearly had a few 2000 point seasons left in him.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]He was slipping by 98, but still potent and clearly had a few 2000 point seasons left in him.[/QUOTE]
Yea, assuming he doesn't retire in '94 and '95, last seasons of his physical prime with things in his control unlike his sophomore foot injury ... he left a probably '94 Ring, MVP, and 2x Scoring Titles on the table. Probably could've played to '99 or 2000 putting up 25 - 28 ppg then retired the all-time accumulative leading scorer.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]:oldlol:

Jordan won 6 of his 10 scoring titles on teams that won the championship.


[B][I]this is actually a great point[/I][/B]

seeing as how everyone wasn't blessed with low volume big men as their
main competition for scoring titles . . . . . obv., big men were the
better scorers and players in the league during that time

nique - karl - d rob - hakeem - shaq

just 1 of 5 a deadly scorer from the perimeter which meant
jordan was going against the opposition's 2nd 3rd n 4th
best player most of the time . . . . playing iso-ball vs
super low volume low-skill unathletically-small SG


from 86-87 to 97-98 . . . . 12 years

only 5 shooting guards finished top 5 in scoring

dale ellis - drexler - chris mullin - jim Jackson - mitch richmond


conversely , , since 2000

kobe's challengers for the scoring title has been the oppositions best
perimeter player every time . . . all high volume highly skilled
uber athletic scoring machines that created their own

iverson - tmac - vince - lebron - wade - melo - durant



but let's not bring level of comp into this




:yaohappy:[/QUOTE]



because context has obviously left the building

[QUOTE]from 86-87 to 97-98 . . . . 12 years

only 5 shooting guards finished top 5 in scoring

dale ellis - drexler - chris mullin - jim Jackson - mitch richmond


conversely , , since 2000

kobe's challengers for the scoring title has been the oppositions best
perimeter player every time . . . all high volume highly skilled
uber athletic scoring machines that created their own

iverson - tmac - vince - lebron - wade - melo - durant[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

What don't you people understand about the rule changes that favored perimeter scoring? If anything, everything you posted above just makes Jordan's accomplishments even more impressive. He was getting scoring titles as a SG in an era where the most dominant centers were playing without the rules favoring swingmen.

Kobe, Iverson, Ray Allen were all drafted in 1996... they didn't have their best scoring seasons until 2006, 10 seasons after they were drafted. That has never happened in NBA History. Where were Bean's 50 and 60 point explosions BEFORE the rule changes? Iverson at [I]5'11, 165 and at 30 years old[/I] all of a sudden puts up 33 PPG?

Come on, Son :oldlol:

Bean wasn't even the focal point of defenses for half his career and played the second half under optimal conditions for perimeter scorers... and he only has 2 scoring titles to show for it.

Now [I]that's[/I] what you call context.

Mj is 3rd all-time and he retired during his prime. If he played straight to 03 he would probably be number 1

[B][QUOTE=juju151111]Mj is 3rd all-time and he retired during his prime. If he played straight to 03 he would probably be number 1[/QUOTE]


jordan retired during his prime. then retired slightly after his prime. then retired again well after his prime.

again why should everyone else suffer for their accomplishments because jordan was lazy and unmotivated or being banned for gambling addictions


whos to say jordan doesnt pull a griffey and start getting injured every other year from trying to play 20 straight years...



if its so easy to do then every guy with a career average comparable to kobe/kareem/karl would have 35k


but only those guys have the hard work. determination. work ethic. and sustained dominance

[/B]

The whole "Kobe had a lower PPG because he sacrificed his game" is a lie. He had:

21.5 attempts in 2010
20.9 in 2009
22.5 in 2001 (with Shaq)
23.5 in 2003 (with Shaq)
23 in 2012

That's an opportunity for 5 more scoring titles. The truth is he just wasn't as efficient as MJ.

[QUOTE=Young X]The whole "Kobe had a lower PPG because he sacrificed his game" is a lie. He had:

21.5 attempts in 2010
20.9 in 2009
22.5 in 2001 (with Shaq)
23.5 in 2003 (with Shaq)
23 in 2012

That's an opportunity for 5 more scoring titles. The truth is he just wasn't as efficient as MJ.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Like I said above, Bean wasn't even the focus of defenses the first half of his career. Coaches were killing themselves trying to figure out how to contain the Diesel and Kobe was free to chuck to his heart's content (which he did). Then the second half of his career was spent playing under rules that made life much easier for perimeter scorers.

[B]TLDR boiled down[/B]- 2 scoring titles in 19 seasons.

[B][QUOTE=Young X]The whole "Kobe had a lower PPG because he sacrificed his game" is a lie. He had:

21.5 attempts in 2010
20.9 in 2009
22.5 in 2001 (with Shaq)
23.5 in 2003 (with Shaq)
23 in 2012

That's an opportunity for 5 more scoring titles. The truth is he just wasn't as efficient as MJ.[/QUOTE]

didnt kobe willingly sit out a game to give durant the scoring title

he cares more about winning. kobe is basically gonna pass jordan in career scoring without really trying. hes probably shed 5-6 points off his average trying to please others

imagine if kobe didnt give a **** his entire career like in 2006 and just went out going for 40 every other game

:lol

i honestly think kobe just does what the team needs. which is why allot of games you see him pass up every shot for the first 2 quarters to get others going

jordan never had to worry about his team mates scoring chemistry because his teams were built on . that and scottie pippen was their main playmaker who lead every single championship season in APG. jordan had a guy to do that for him. kobe had to do all that by himself


honestly ive seen kobe throw away scoring titles more than a few times for the hell of it


single season scoring is pretty much based on situations. but career scoring is based on longevity and work ethic

anyone like tmac or iverson can go out and average 30+... but not anyone can go out and get 35,000+

[/B]

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin][B]imagine if kobe didnt give a **** his entire career like in 2006 and just went out going for 40 every other game

:lol

[/B][/QUOTE]

So that's what happened in '06, huh... Kobe stopped giving a shit?

[B][COLOR="Red"]1) Kobe Bryant (6'6 SG) 35.4 PPG [Drafted 1996]
2) Allen Iverson (5'11 PG/SG) 33 PPG [Drafted 1996]
3) LeBron James (6'8 SF) 31.4 PPG [Drafted 2003]
4) Gilbert Arenas (6'3 PG/SG) 29.6 PPG [Drafted 2001][/COLOR][/B]
5) Dwyane Wade (6'4 SG) 27.2 PPG [Drafted 2003] [B][COLOR="Red"](Set finals FTA record)[/COLOR][/B]
[B][COLOR="Red"]6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG [Drafted 1998]
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG [Drafted 1998][/COLOR][/B]
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG [Drafted 2003]
[B][COLOR="Red"]9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG [Drafted 2000]
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG [Drafted 1996][/COLOR][/B]

[B][COLOR="Red"]Red[/COLOR][/B]= Career High PPG (*Steve Nash, also drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high*)

Not a single f*ck was given that season :oldlol:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]So that's what happened in '06, huh... Kobe stopped giving a shit?

[B][COLOR="Red"]1) Kobe Bryant (6'6 SG) 35.4 PPG [Drafted 1996]
2) Allen Iverson (5'11 PG/SG) 33 PPG [Drafted 1996]
3) LeBron James (6'8 SF) 31.4 PPG [Drafted 2003]
4) Gilbert Arenas (6'3 PG/SG) 29.6 PPG [Drafted 2001][/COLOR][/B]
5) Dwyane Wade (6'4 SG) 27.2 PPG [Drafted 2003] [B][COLOR="Red"](Set finals FTA record)[/COLOR][/B]
[B][COLOR="Red"]6) Paul Pierce (6'7 SF) 26.8 PPG [Drafted 1998]
7) Dirk Nowitzki (7' "PF") 26.6 PPG [Drafted 1998][/COLOR][/B]
8) Carmelo Anthony (6'8 SF) 26.5 PPG [Drafted 2003]
[B][COLOR="Red"]9) Michael Redd (6'6 SG) 25.4 PPG [Drafted 2000]
10) Ray Allen (6'5 SG) 25.1 PPG [Drafted 1996][/COLOR][/B]

[B][COLOR="Red"]Red[/COLOR][/B]= Career High PPG (*Steve Nash, also drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high*)

Not a single f*ck was given that season :oldlol:[/QUOTE]


basically yeah. kobe didnt give a shit... he went into jordan hog mode in 2006 for the first time in his life because he didnt have any team mates


when kobe has help he utilizes it fully. he knows how to win.

scoring titles have never been a sign of greatness. look at the kind of people whove won them more often than not throughout history...

2013-14 NBA Kevin Durant 32.01 OKC ( not the best player )
2012-13 NBA Carmelo Anthony 28.66 NYK ( not the best player )
2011-12 NBA Kevin Durant 28.03 OKC ( not the best player )
2010-11 NBA Kevin Durant 27.71 OKC ( not the best player )
2009-10 NBA Kevin Durant 30.15 OKC ( not the best player )
2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 30.20 MIA ( not the best player )
2007-08 NBA LeBron James 30.00 CLE ( not the best player )
2006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 31.56 LAL
2005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 35.40 LAL
2004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 30.69 PHI ( not the best player )
2003-04 NBA Tracy McGrady 28.03 ORL ( not the best player )
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 32.09 ORL ( not the best player )
2001-02 NBA Allen Iverson 31.38 PHI ( not the best player )
2000-01 NBA Allen Iverson 31.08 PHI ( not the best player )
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.67 LAL
1998-99 NBA Allen Iverson 26.75 PHI ( not the best player )
1997-98 NBA Michael Jordan* 28.74 CHI ( not the best player )
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.65 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.38 CHI
1994-95 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.30 ORL ( not the best player )
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 29.79 SAS ( not the best player )
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.58 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.05 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.46 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 33.57 CHI ( not the best player )
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.51 CHI ( not the best player )
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 34.98 CHI ( not the best player )
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 37.09 CHI ( not the best player )
1985-86 NBA Dominique Wilkins* 30.33 ATL ( not the best player )
1984-85 NBA Bernard King* 32.89 NYK ( not the best player )
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.61 UTA ( not the best player )
1982-83 NBA Alex English* 28.37 DEN ( not the best player )
1981-82 NBA George Gervin* 32.29 SAS ( not the best player )
1980-81 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.65 UTA ( not the best player )
1979-80 NBA George Gervin* 33.14 SAS ( not the best player )
1978-79 NBA George Gervin* 29.56 SAS ( not the best player )
1977-78 NBA George Gervin* 27.22 SAS ( not the best player )
1976-77 NBA Pete Maravich* 31.14 NOJ ( not the best player )
1975-76 NBA Bob McAdoo* 31.12 BUF ( not the best player )
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 34.52 BUF ( not the best player )
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 30.55 BUF ( not the best player )
1972-73 NBA Tiny Archibald* 33.99 KCO ( not the best player )
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 34.84 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 31.66 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 31.20 LAL ( not the best player )
1968-69 NBA Elvin Hayes* 28.38 SDR ( not the best player )
1967-68 NBA Oscar Robertson* 29.17 CIN ( not the best player )
1966-67 NBA Rick Barry* 35.58 SFW ( not the best player )
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 33.53 PHI
1964-65 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 34.71 TOT
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 36.85 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 44.83 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 50.36 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 38.39 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 37.60 PHW
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 29.24 STL
1957-58 NBA George Yardley* 27.79 DET ( not the best player )
1956-57 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.59 PHW ( not the best player )
1955-56 NBA Bob Pettit* 25.68 STL
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.65 PHW ( not the best player )
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 24.43 PHW ( not the best player )
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.34 PHW ( not the best player )
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.36 PHW ( not the best player )
1950-51 NBA George Mikan* 28.41 MNL
1949-50 NBA George Mikan* 27.43 MNL
1948-49 BAA George Mikan* 28.30 MNL
1947-48 BAA Joe Fulks* 22.07 PHW ( not the best player )
1946-47 BAA Joe Fulks* 23.15 PHW ( not the best player )



:confusedshrug:

scoring titles 90% of the time mean you're not the best player. better players know that you must sacrifice to win more often than not.

jordan sacrificed somewhat too. his average dipped a bit

but he was lucky to have a team built on defense

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]scoring titles 90% of the time mean you're not the best player. better players know that you must sacrifice to win more often than not.

jordan sacrificed somewhat too. his average dipped a bit

but he was lucky to have a team built on defense[/QUOTE]So why was Kobe still leading the league in shot attempts every season?

When did MJ ever lead the league in shot attempts and not win the scoring title?

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]basically yeah. kobe didnt give a shit... he went into jordan hog mode in 2006 for the first time in his life because he didnt have any team mates


when kobe has help he utilizes it fully. he knows how to win.

scoring titles have never been a sign of greatness. look at the kind of people whove won them more often than not throughout history...

2013-14 NBA Kevin Durant 32.01 OKC ( not the best player )
2012-13 NBA Carmelo Anthony 28.66 NYK ( not the best player )
2011-12 NBA Kevin Durant 28.03 OKC ( not the best player )
2010-11 NBA Kevin Durant 27.71 OKC ( not the best player )
2009-10 NBA Kevin Durant 30.15 OKC ( not the best player )
2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 30.20 MIA ( not the best player )
[B]2007-08 NBA LeBron James 30.00 CLE ( not the best player [/B])
2006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 31.56 LAL
2005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 35.40 LAL
2004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 30.69 PHI ( not the best player )
2003-04 NBA Tracy McGrady 28.03 ORL ( not the best player )
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 32.09 ORL ( not the best player )
2001-02 NBA Allen Iverson 31.38 PHI ( not the best player )
2000-01 NBA Allen Iverson 31.08 PHI ( not the best player )
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.67 LAL
1998-99 NBA Allen Iverson 26.75 PHI ( not the best player )
1997-98 NBA Michael Jordan* 28.74 CHI ( not the best player )
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.65 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.38 CHI
1994-95 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 29.30 ORL ( not the best player )
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 29.79 SAS ( not the best player )
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.58 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 30.05 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.46 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 33.57 CHI ( not the best player )
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 32.51 CHI ( not the best player )
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 34.98 CHI ( not the best player )
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 37.09 CHI ( not the best player )
1985-86 NBA Dominique Wilkins* 30.33 ATL ( not the best player )
1984-85 NBA Bernard King* 32.89 NYK ( not the best player )
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.61 UTA ( not the best player )
1982-83 NBA Alex English* 28.37 DEN ( not the best player )
1981-82 NBA George Gervin* 32.29 SAS ( not the best player )
1980-81 NBA Adrian Dantley* 30.65 UTA ( not the best player )
1979-80 NBA George Gervin* 33.14 SAS ( not the best player )
1978-79 NBA George Gervin* 29.56 SAS ( not the best player )
1977-78 NBA George Gervin* 27.22 SAS ( not the best player )
1976-77 NBA Pete Maravich* 31.14 NOJ ( not the best player )
1975-76 NBA Bob McAdoo* 31.12 BUF ( not the best player )
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 34.52 BUF ( not the best player )
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* 30.55 BUF ( not the best player )
1972-73 NBA Tiny Archibald* 33.99 KCO ( not the best player )
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 34.84 MIL
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 31.66 MIL
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 31.20 LAL ( not the best player )
1968-69 NBA Elvin Hayes* 28.38 SDR ( not the best player )
1967-68 NBA Oscar Robertson* 29.17 CIN ( not the best player )
1966-67 NBA Rick Barry* 35.58 SFW ( not the best player )
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 33.53 PHI
1964-65 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 34.71 TOT
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 36.85 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 44.83 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 50.36 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 38.39 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 37.60 PHW
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 29.24 STL
1957-58 NBA George Yardley* 27.79 DET ( not the best player )
1956-57 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.59 PHW ( not the best player )
1955-56 NBA Bob Pettit* 25.68 STL
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.65 PHW ( not the best player )
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 24.43 PHW ( not the best player )
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 22.34 PHW ( not the best player )
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 25.36 PHW ( not the best player )
1950-51 NBA George Mikan* 28.41 MNL
1949-50 NBA George Mikan* 27.43 MNL
1948-49 BAA George Mikan* 28.30 MNL
1947-48 BAA Joe Fulks* 22.07 PHW ( not the best player )
1946-47 BAA Joe Fulks* 23.15 PHW ( not the best player )



:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]scoring titles 90% of the time mean you're not the best player. better players know that you must sacrifice to win more often than not.

jordan sacrificed somewhat too. his average dipped a bit

but he was lucky to have a team built on defense[/QUOTE]

Lol, except when Kobe does it apparently