How is it even questionable that MJ is GOAT?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]I think you missed the entire premise. No one questions Mj's case or legitimacy of it. It's the absolute certainty it's presented with.......[/QUOTE]

OK, but again. If you admit he's a candidate, why would you care if someone else thinks it's an absolute certainty that he is? I could understand if he really had no legitimate case, but was getting GOAT talk PURELY because of hype. But he arguably has the best case out of all candidates. So the only reason it makes sense is that some people just can't stand Jordan, and hate that a player they dislike has such a case for GOAT. Of course they won't admit THAT, so they have to come up with all sorts of nonsense ways to detract from his greatness under the guise of "exposing facts the Jordan mythologists don't want you to know" :oldlol:

This is, of course, nonsense. They just dislike Jordan and want to latch on to any possible argument that can somehow detract from his career. It's pathetically transparent, but hey it makes them feel better. It won't stop GOAT GOATing though.

:pimp:

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]Kind of embarrassing we are 5 pages in and no one has really bothered to make the case against MJ.

The biggest argument out there against MJ is the statistical calculation of impact on impact on score. RAPM is Ridge Adjusted Plus Minus. It attempts to remove who you are playing, who are you on the court with and your personal impact on score. Its a per possession calculation so sometimes you end up with outliers but MJ simply did not dominate this stat the way you would expect him to. In fact, his best season was ~+5.3. LeBron and TD have both had seasons > 10.0.[/QUOTE]

Err, where are you getting this data from? As far as I know, RAPM was not calculated for any of Jordan's seasons, and if it was, it was likely only for '97/'98, not any of his prime seasons. Regardless, I'd like a source.

If we look at straight +/- as seen on NBA.com (which again only goes back to the '97 season, when Jordan was 34 years old), we see that Jordan led the league in +/- among starters in '97 and '98 at 7.2 and 7.5 +/- respectively. Compare that to Lebron's 1.4, 5.0 and 3.7 +/- in 2011, '13 and '14, respectively. Yes, Lebron did have an 8.7 +/- in 2012, but again that's prime James and a 34/35 year old Jordan.

Per basketball-reference.com, Jordan's SPM in 1993 was higher than Lebron's in 2010.

[QUOTE=Knoe Itawl]OK, but again. If you admit he's a candidate, why would you care if someone else thinks it's an absolute certainty that he is? I could understand if he really had no legitimate case, but was getting GOAT talk PURELY because of hype. But he arguably has the best case out of all candidates. So the only reason it makes sense is that some people just can't stand Jordan, and hate that a player they dislike has such a case for GOAT. Of course they won't admit THAT, so they have to come up with all sorts of nonsense ways to detract from his greatness under the guise of "exposing facts the Jordan mythologists don't want you to know" :oldlol:

This is, of course, nonsense. They just dislike Jordan and want to latch on to any possible argument that can somehow detract from his career. It's pathetically transparent, but hey it makes them feel better. It won't stop GOAT GOATing though.

:pimp:[/QUOTE]
Kinda over the top there buddy, but I'll bite. I don't think anyone is mad, certainly not myself he's my Goat. Also the topic wasn't made by detractors to begin with, the thread title is:
"How is it even questionable that Mj is goat?"
If you don't see the flaw in that thinking I don't think you'll ever be able to.

Michael Jordan is the Michael Jordan of basketball.

There's always gonna be this right here:

[B]MINUTES
[/B]Most seasons leading league: 8
Most consecutive seasons leading league: 5
Highest average per game, career: 45.8
Highest average per game, season: 48.5
[B]COMPLETE GAMES
[/B]Most, season: 79
Most consecutive, season: 47
[B]SCORING
[/B]Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most points, season: 4,029
Highest average, season: 50.4
Most points, rookie, season: 2,707
Highest average, rookie, season: 37.6
Most points, game: 100
Most points, rookie, game: 58
Most games, 50 or more, career: 118
Most games, 50 or more, season: 45
Most cons.e games, 50 or more points: 7
Most games, 40 or more, career: 271
Most games, 40 or more, season: 63
Most cons. games, 40 or more points: 14
Most cons. games, 30 or more points: 65
Most cons. games, 20 or more points: 126
Most points, one half: 59
[B]FIELD-GOAL PERCENTAGE
[/B]Most seasons leading league: **9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 5
Highest, season (qualifiers): .727
Highest, game (min. 15 FG): ***1.000
Most field goals, no misses, game: 18
[B]FIELD GOALS
[/B]Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most, season: 1,597
Most cons., no misses, season: 35
Most, game: 36
Most, one half: 22
[B]FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS
[/B]Most cons. seasons leading league: 7
Most, season: 3,159
Most, game: 63
Most, one half: 37
Most, one quarter: 21
[B]FREE THROWS MADE
[/B]Most, game: 28
[B]FREE THROW ATTEMPTS
[/B]Most seasons leading league: 9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 6
Most, season: 1,363
Most, game: 34
[B]REBOUNDS
[/B]Most seasons leading league: 11
Most, career: 23,924
Highest average, career: 22.9
Most, season: 2,149
Most, rookie, season: 1,941
Most seasons, 1,000 or more: 13
Highest average, season: 27.2
Most, game: 55
Most, rookie, game: 45
[B]DISQUALIFICATIONS
[/B]Lowest percentage, career: ****0.00
[B]POINTS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most by rookie, game: 53
[B]MINUTES, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 3-game series: 144
Most, 4-game series: 195
Most, 6-game series: 296
[B]FIELD GOALS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 7-game series: 113
Most made, game: 24
Most attempts, game: 28
Most attempts, half: 25
[B]FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 3-game series: 104
Highest field goal percentage (minimum, 8): 1.000*****
[B]REBOUNDS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 5-game series: 160
Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, 7-game series: 220
Highest average, per game, series: 32.0
Most, game: 41
Most, half: 26
Most by rookie, game: 35
[B]MINUTES, FINALS
[/B]Most, 5-game series: 240
[B]REBOUNDS, FINALS
[/B]Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, half: 26
NOTES
*Tied with Michael Jordan
**Tied with Shaquille O'Neal
***Three times (15/15, 16/16, 18/18)
****Tied with several others, but played most games of any
*****Tied with 12 others

Those are just SOME of the records that still stand... FORTY YEARS LATER.

It doesn't include his 9 triple doubles in a row, or 4th all time in triple doubles,
* or the stupendous 22 points, 25 rebounds, & 21 assist double triple double,
* or his quadruple doubles in playoffs,
* nor the 103 30-30 games (out of a league total 131 30-30 games in history)
* nor his 227 consecutive double-doubles from 1964 to 1967....
* the Man also holds the second and third longest continuous streaks of double-doubles with 220 and 133.

Dude held virtually [I]every [/I]record that had ever existed at the time he retired.
**************************************
When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S.
***************************************
Coming from a guy who watched half of Chamberlain's career - [I]nobody[/I] ever dominated the court like he did.

He stands alone with Mike & Kareem. Everybody else is some lower tier.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]There's always gonna be this right here:

[B]MINUTES
[/B]Most seasons leading league: 8
Most consecutive seasons leading league: 5
Highest average per game, career: 45.8
Highest average per game, season: 48.5
[B]COMPLETE GAMES
[/B]Most, season: 79
Most consecutive, season: 47
[B]SCORING
[/B]Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most points, season: 4,029
Highest average, season: 50.4
Most points, rookie, season: 2,707
Highest average, rookie, season: 37.6
Most points, game: 100
Most points, rookie, game: 58
Most games, 50 or more, career: 118
Most games, 50 or more, season: 45
Most cons.e games, 50 or more points: 7
Most games, 40 or more, career: 271
Most games, 40 or more, season: 63
Most cons. games, 40 or more points: 14
Most cons. games, 30 or more points: 65
Most cons. games, 20 or more points: 126
Most points, one half: 59
[B]FIELD-GOAL PERCENTAGE
[/B]Most seasons leading league: **9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 5
Highest, season (qualifiers): .727
Highest, game (min. 15 FG): ***1.000
Most field goals, no misses, game: 18
[B]FIELD GOALS
[/B]Most cons. seasons leading league: *7
Most, season: 1,597
Most cons., no misses, season: 35
Most, game: 36
Most, one half: 22
[B]FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS
[/B]Most cons. seasons leading league: 7
Most, season: 3,159
Most, game: 63
Most, one half: 37
Most, one quarter: 21
[B]FREE THROWS MADE
[/B]Most, game: 28
[B]FREE THROW ATTEMPTS
[/B]Most seasons leading league: 9
Most cons. seasons leading league: 6
Most, season: 1,363
Most, game: 34
[B]REBOUNDS
[/B]Most seasons leading league: 11
Most, career: 23,924
Highest average, career: 22.9
Most, season: 2,149
Most, rookie, season: 1,941
Most seasons, 1,000 or more: 13
Highest average, season: 27.2
Most, game: 55
Most, rookie, game: 45
[B]DISQUALIFICATIONS
[/B]Lowest percentage, career: ****0.00
[B]POINTS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most by rookie, game: 53
[B]MINUTES, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 3-game series: 144
Most, 4-game series: 195
Most, 6-game series: 296
[B]FIELD GOALS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 7-game series: 113
Most made, game: 24
Most attempts, game: 28
Most attempts, half: 25
[B]FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 3-game series: 104
Highest field goal percentage (minimum, 8): 1.000*****
[B]REBOUNDS, PLAYOFFS
[/B]Most, 5-game series: 160
Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, 7-game series: 220
Highest average, per game, series: 32.0
Most, game: 41
Most, half: 26
Most by rookie, game: 35
[B]MINUTES, FINALS
[/B]Most, 5-game series: 240
[B]REBOUNDS, FINALS
[/B]Most, 6-game series: 171
Most, half: 26
NOTES
*Tied with Michael Jordan
**Tied with Shaquille O'Neal
***Three times (15/15, 16/16, 18/18)
****Tied with several others, but played most games of any
*****Tied with 12 others

Those are just SOME of the records that still stand... FORTY YEARS LATER.

It doesn't include his 9 triple doubles in a row, or 4th all time in triple doubles,
* or the stupendous 22 points, 25 rebounds, & 21 assist double triple double,
* or his quadruple doubles in playoffs,
* nor the 103 30-30 games (out of a league total 131 30-30 games in history)
* nor his 227 consecutive double-doubles from 1964 to 1967....
* the Man also holds the second and third longest continuous streaks of double-doubles with 220 and 133.

Dude held virtually [I]every [/I]record that had ever existed at the time he retired.
**************************************
When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S.
***************************************
Coming from a guy who watched half of Chamberlain's career - [I]nobody[/I] ever dominated the court like he did.

He stands alone with Mike & Kareem. Everybody else is some lower tier.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="7"]2[/SIZE] :rolleyes:

meanwhile his rival has 11.... :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Asukal][SIZE="7"]2[/SIZE] :rolleyes:

meanwhile his rival has 11.... :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

just like I said. It didn't take long either.

[I]"When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S."[/I]

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]just like I said. It didn't take long either.

[I]"When all that comes up, suddenly people trying to defend other players shift around and start talking about team accomplishments or popularity contests instead of what the individual actually accomplished. People defending Jordan always slither around the first half of his career when his team accomplished zilch. He wasn't any less of a player, he just had lousy teams.

All that just changes the metric and what it really comes down to is... the purest form of B.S."[/I][/QUOTE]

Whenever Jordan's title of GOAT is questioned, the justification is always pure BS. To date, there hasn't been a single legit reason for it to be disputed. Only BS. Can't say I expect anything else from a bunch of bitter kids that never got to watch MJ play....:lol

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]Whenever Jordan's title of GOAT is questioned, the justification is always pure BS. To date, there hasn't been a single legit reason for it to be disputed. Only BS. [B][U]Can't say I expect anything else from a bunch of bitter kids that never got to watch MJ play....:lo[/U][/B]l[/QUOTE]

You do realize that you are responding to one of the oldest posters on the board who actually saw Wilt and rookie Kareem play. Right?

[QUOTE=theoneneo]Blasphemy, literally the most successful player in the sport, ever.... like, theirs no one past or present more accomplished than Mike. [B]All this he was a product of Nike bullish!t, before Jordan what was Nike? If anything he built them. [/B]Lebron is a product of Nike, their attempt to try to recreate Jordan(and it's failing horribly, fuccking horrendous clunky sneakers:face palm )

They day that Mike's legacy comes into question is the day we gotta question the sport all together.[/QUOTE]

Yeah MJ is GOAT but chill out on that part...

Steve Prefontaine and Bo Jackson contributed as much to Nike if not more. Pre was the OG kid who [I]actually[/I] was the first one to make Nike popular, and Bo Jackson was an all star in Football and Baseball promoting Nike gear, and both sports are more famous than bball.

[QUOTE=jlip]You do realize that you are responding to one of the oldest posters on the board who actually saw Wilt and rookie Kareem play. Right?[/QUOTE]

From my encounters in real life with people that saw wilt, Kareem, and Jordan play, ALL of them said that Jordan is the GOAT. I don't have a problem with someone who makes a case for Kareem or Wilt, but this nonsense about Kobe and Lebron even being close to MJ is just laughable and when I read it, I just KNOW that it's being posted by someone who never saw Jordan play.

[QUOTE=Soundwave]There isn't really. [B][U]Even on ISH, it's just 5 or 6 junior high kids that need to draw attention to themselves. Probably not even that many, as we're likely talking 2-3 kids with several alts that need attention desperately. [/U][/B]

Whenever ISH has any serious threads on GOAT rankings, Jordan wins pretty much by a country mile. Russell and Kareem are the only two that maybe get the odd vote:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350073[/url]

I'm not saying no one else has a case, but even amongst haters, Jordan is usually the consensus pick.[/QUOTE]


:lol :lol :lol :lol

On point.

lebron traveled

[QUOTE=outbreak]You didn't even mention the fact he carried the tune squad to victory either.[/QUOTE]

Repped

lebron flopped