A PRIME Walton vs a PRIME Sabonis

[QUOTE=SpanishACB]so you don't understand how a higlight video is much weaker analysis than an actual full game?[/QUOTE]

Both hold the same weight. I could post Donatas Motiejunas full game from yesterday and make him look like prime Hakeem. Atta boy, doe.

Again, since we didn't watch these guys play, we go by what we know. Anyway, we're done here. You're not making a case for Sabonis, just posted a quote you thought was relevant.

FTR, based on what I read from this thread, Walton gets my vote. Lazerus did a better job at presenting his side of the argument.

[QUOTE=SpanishACB]surely a person that couldn't cope with the first 3 pages of Dante's Inferno shouldn't be trying to play devil's advocate?

you don't understand how a higlight video is flawed in comparison to a full game specially when trying to judge how good a player could perform (very different from HOW HE USUALLY PERFORMS).

wanna defend an idiot? be my guest, but don't make simplistic comparisons just because you struggle with definitions. Of course we can only go by what we know, that's why our resident forum idiot should stop making imaginary arguments about how because A beat B and C beat A, C is better than B or when he goes into deep reflexion mode and tells us all about the difference in skill by judging 5 minutes of partial clips, highlights and a black and white photo; I didn't do any of this. I just tried to expose his weak agenda and argumentation.

What are you? his little brother or his alt account?[/QUOTE]

:violin:

Yada yada yada. This is nothing but a weak ass rant coming from someone who is cornered and can't back up his side of the argument.

Convince me Sabonis at his prime is a better player than Walton. Go on, old sport.

[B]I think Sabonis could've had a terrific NBA career if he had come earlier, but c'mon now...

Walton actually did it big at the highest level; he's a MVP, a FMVP (DPOY if the award was already given out too), showed amazing talent/intangibles while improving team and teammates, going against the likes of Kareem, young Moses, McAdoo, Cowens, Lanier, Unseld, Gilmore... And all of that before he was even 26; he could've very well been a top10 all-time player and top5 all-time center, if he had stayed healthy.
[/B]


[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I have posted this before, but here it is again...

MY all-time list...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Russell
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Lebron
10. Bird
11. Moses
12. Hakeem
13. Dr. J
14. Oscar
15. West

Some of those are very close and interchangeable.

Does that look like a bias towards the 60's?[/QUOTE]

[B]No, just a huge bias towards Wilt :lol And what comes along with it...[/B]

[QUOTE]"No letting up." Red told them. "Beat them as badly as you can." Then, turning to Russell, he pointed Radivoje Korac - star of the Yugoslav team, and Europe's leading scorer at the time. "He scores once and I'll have your head. I mean it, once."

When the game began, the Yugoslavs went straight to Korac as soon as they got the ball. He made a spin move on Russell, turned, and Russell blocked the shot, starting a fast break the other way. Five times, the Yugoslavs got the ball, five times, Russell blocked a shot. The sixth time down, Korac caught the ball thirty feet from the basket and, with Russell racing at him, heaved a shot that hit the side of the backboard and bounced away as the crowd hooted. The Americans are now up by twenty.

"Russell," Red screamed, "I'm gonna kill you! You let the guy hit the backboard!"

The next time Korac caught the ball, he tried to go up-and-under Russell, who slammed the ball back at him so hard it hit him in the head and bounced away. Completely exasperated, Korac grabbed the ball, kicked it into the stands, and was promptly ejected [/QUOTE]

I really want to know about the results of those games, esp. vs Yugoslavia.

[QUOTE=YouGotServed]

Convince me Sabonis at his prime is a better player than Walton. Go on, old sport.[/QUOTE]

Why? I don't need to convince you of anything. Specially of something I never claimed.

I can only try to convince you to try and read better, or become a more reflexive person if only to save me the effort of having to reply to these stupid posts of yours whilst you appear completely lost with words, and unable to understand a simple and literal paragraph.

[QUOTE=SpanishACB]Why? I don't need to convince you of anything. Specially of something I never claimed.

I can only try to convince you to try and read better, or become a more reflexive person if only to save me the effort of having to reply to these stupid posts of yours whilst you appear completely lost with words, and unable to understand a simple and literal paragraph.[/QUOTE]

By posting that one full video it's obvious you are trying to make a case for Sabonis. What else were you trying to accomolish if not that? Don't be afraid boy, share your thoughts.

Please, educate all of us. How is Sabonis a better player than Walton?

Can anyone point me to a great game of PEAK Sabonis, and where all these myths from him are coming from?

Or is there no footage and its literally all based on potential?

"Peak" Sabonis is really a player that never existed. He's just a huge what if, and arguably not a very realistic one. Late teen Sabonis had a huge potential, but this is a lean giant, not a 300-pound monster and obviously not a player at his peak. When he was in his mid 20's, he was much bigger, but his knees were already banged and surgically repaired and his mobility already suffered. I'm not sure any actual version of Sabonis had ever been clearly better than any others of him. Was '85 Sabonis really better than '90 or '93 Sabonis? I doubt it.

Here's his probable scoring career high at adult level, in 1989:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBC1NSzJ9PQ[/url]

[QUOTE=Psileas]"Peak" Sabonis is really a player that never existed. He's just a huge what if, and arguably not a very realistic one. Late teen Sabonis had a huge potential, but this is a lean giant, not a 300-pound monster and obviously not a player at his peak. When he was in his mid 20's, he was much bigger, but his knees were already banged and surgically repaired and his mobility already suffered. I'm not sure any actual version of Sabonis had ever been clearly better than any others of him. Was '85 Sabonis really better than '90 or '93 Sabonis? I doubt it.

Here's his probable scoring career high at adult level, in 1989:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBC1NSzJ9PQ[/url][/QUOTE]


Excellent footage. And no one is questioning his skills, but clearly THAT man would NOT have been dominating the likes of Gilmore, Hakeem, Robinson, Kareem, or Wilt...among others.

And here is footage of Walton playing against arguably as talented players as that footage had...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAnC4cBXAuY[/url]

and then Walton at his peak and in the '77 NBA Finals...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGeI6ypgtP0[/url]


BTW, and as always, it is refreshing to have someone provide EVIDENCE and RESEARCH in their posts. Unlike 90% of the posters on ISH.

[QUOTE=Psileas]I really want to know about the results of those games, esp. vs Yugoslavia.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't tell you. But for someone questioning what Wilt would have done against the European competition in HIS era...

[QUOTE]give me footage of Wilt scoring 100 points

[B]or wait, better! give me footage of Wilt dominating European competition![/B] give me footage of Wilt dominating Joel Pryzbilla... there's none? Joel must've been better than Wilt then.

You're really something aren't you?[/QUOTE]

One would only need to look at how our AMATEUR teams did in the Olympics in the 60's. Hell, we sent a group of castoffs to the '68 Olympics, most of whom never made it to the NBA, and they cruised to a Gold Medal.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aPvNA0tPWY[/url]

Sabonis couldn't hit a shot for his life in this game.

I didn't take the time to count his missed shots, but in the first two minutes he started out at 0-5, and within another few minutes he was 1-9 from the field before being pulled...

USA 127 Lithuania 76

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Who you got?[/QUOTE]

First of all I agree with Psileas that prime Sabonis never really existed. In reality we could talk about pre-injuries young Sabonis.

Young Sabonis was one of the greatest basketball talents in Europe (if not the greatest), he had played all positions in his youth starting with guard. Even in his early years although he was a starting center for Zalgiris he was used as PF by Soviet coach A. Gomelsky between 1983 and 1985, as the coach used both 7-3 Tkachenko and 7-3 Sabonis as twin towers. He was also Euro'85 MVP. He played with a Soviet in a USA tour in 1982 when he was still 17 (and he played at center) against US best college teams and USSR won 9 and lost 3 vs US college teams. Sabonis was best performer with averages of 19 ppg, 9 rpg in 27 mpg.

"In a game televised nationally on CBS, Sabonis led his team to victory over Indiana University, prompting the Indiana coach, [B]Bobby Knight, who coached the victorious Olympic team in 1984, to say of him, "He may be the best non-American player I've ever seen.'[/B] And three days later he played against Ralph Sampson's Virginia where according to Bill Wall, the executive director of the Amateur Basketball Association of the U.S.A., who accompanied the
Russians on the tour, says, [B]"Sabonis clearly outplayed Sampson in
that game.'[/B] Sampson was the first player selected in the NBA draft at
the end of the 1982-1983 collegiate season."

The stat line for Sabonis, who was fouled out was 21 points, 14 rebounds, 4 or 5 blocks and Sampson was 13 points, 25 rebounds, 9 blocks. But it was Sabonis at 17 and Sampson at 22. So probably after that tour was the time where US experts start thinking of Sabonis as a great prospect and future NBA star. Sadly USSR boycotted the '84 Olympics and Sabonis missed the opportunity to play against Ewing and Perkins.

In 1986 prior to World Championship in Spain Sabonis was already bothered by some injuries as he missed all the pregames for USSR team. And according to his coach '86 WC was Sabonis worst campaign so far, as he slammed him for playing for himself not for the team. Also I have read that some US experts who saw him said that he did not develop much for the 4 years after that '82 tour. [B]They observe that he lacks intensity in defense and be a little passive and [/B][B]attributed that to the lack of competition and proper training in Europe[/B]. With that said Sabonis played well in the second half of the World Cup Final versus David Robinson and made some strong plays finishing with 16 pts and 11 rebs vs 20 pts and 4 rebs for Robinson.

I suggest that had Sabonis came in NBA in 1984 or 1985 with proper training and if he avoided those Achilles injuries only then we can compare him with prime Walton or any other center of a time. During the 80s the NBA was far ahead of any other league, and the gap was bigger than it is now. It is enough to mention that Blazzers doctors saved his career before '88 Olympics (although they strongly advised against playing on it as he was not fully recovered).

Like Sabonis who never hit his peak, Walton had some resurgent in form after his first 2 seasons and at 25 he was one of the best NBA players winning MVP and NBA tittle in 1977.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Based on what we know.

A nowhere near his prime Robinson outplayed a peak Sabonis. And a decade later he was wiping the floor with him.
[/QUOTE]

Robinson and Sabonis are almost the same age. In '86 Robinson we could call it even at least, and '88 Sabonis was not fully recovered by his ACL injuries.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
McAdoo at age 40 was a better scorer in the Euroleague than Sabonis ever was.
[/QUOTE]

Sabonis was never a volume scorer for his team like McAdoo, he was more of a team player and good reader of the game with great basketball IQ. With that said scoring argument is not very appropriate in Sabonis case. Sabonis is more of Tim Dunkan type of player.

In my opinion with proper training (NBA) and without injuries Sabonis could have a shot as Top 10 center All Time. In terms of talent and skills he was ahead of Ewing and Robinson. And DRob is more athletic in terms of speed and quickness Sabonis had larger frame and height advantage so it would be interesting to watch them H2H.

[QUOTE=julizaver]First of all I agree with Psileas that prime Sabonis never really existed. In reality we could talk about pre-injuries young Sabonis.

Young Sabonis was one of the greatest basketball talents in Europe (if not the greatest), he had played all positions in his youth starting with guard. Even in his early years although he was a starting center for Zalgiris he was used as PF by Soviet coach A. Gomelsky between 1983 and 1985, as the coach used both 7-3 Tkachenko and 7-3 Sabonis as twin towers. He was also Euro'85 MVP. He played with a Soviet in a USA tour in 1982 when he was still 17 (and he played at center) against US best college teams and USSR won 9 and lost 3 vs US college teams. Sabonis was best performer with averages of 19 ppg, 9 rpg in 27 mpg.

"In a game televised nationally on CBS, Sabonis led his team to victory over Indiana University, prompting the Indiana coach, [B]Bobby Knight, who coached the victorious Olympic team in 1984, to say of him, "He may be the best non-American player I've ever seen.'[/B] And three days later he played against Ralph Sampson's Virginia where according to Bill Wall, the executive director of the Amateur Basketball Association of the U.S.A., who accompanied the
Russians on the tour, says, [B]"Sabonis clearly outplayed Sampson in
that game.'[/B] Sampson was the first player selected in the NBA draft at
the end of the 1982-1983 collegiate season."

The stat line for Sabonis, who was fouled out was 21 points, 14 rebounds, 4 or 5 blocks and Sampson was 13 points, 25 rebounds, 9 blocks. But it was Sabonis at 17 and Sampson at 22. So probably after that tour was the time where US experts start thinking of Sabonis as a great prospect and future NBA star. Sadly USSR boycotted the '84 Olympics and Sabonis missed the opportunity to play against Ewing and Perkins.

In 1986 prior to World Championship in Spain Sabonis was already bothered by some injuries as he missed all the pregames for USSR team. And according to his coach '86 WC was Sabonis worst campaign so far, as he slammed him for playing for himself not for the team. Also I have read that some US experts who saw him said that he did not develop much for the 4 years after that '82 tour. [B]They observe that he lacks intensity in defense and be a little passive and [/B][B]attributed that to the lack of competition and proper training in Europe[/B]. With that said Sabonis played well in the second half of the World Cup Final versus David Robinson and made some strong plays finishing with 16 pts and 11 rebs vs 20 pts and 4 rebs for Robinson.

I suggest that had Sabonis came in NBA in 1984 or 1985 with proper training and if he avoided those Achilles injuries only then we can compare him with prime Walton or any other center of a time. During the 80s the NBA was far ahead of any other league, and the gap was bigger than it is now. It is enough to mention that Blazzers doctors saved his career before '88 Olympics (although they strongly advised against playing on it as he was not fully recovered).

Like Sabonis who never hit his peak, Walton had some resurgent in form after his first 2 seasons and at 25 he was one of the best NBA players winning MVP and NBA tittle in 1977.[/QUOTE]


First of all, you are one of only a few posters here whom I respect.

Secondly, this is great RESEARCH.

Having said that, though, the MYTH of Sabonis is just that...a MYTH. I won't take the time to look up the topics, but there have been a few here in which Sabonis was clearly over-rated.

There have even been those that claimed that he outplayed Robinson in the '88 Olympics...which was CLEARLY not the case. And Robinson was a skeleton in that game, and was nowhere near the player he would be just a few years later in his NBA career.

And in the very limited footage of Sabonis that we do have...he was not on a prime Robinson level. Furthermore, I don't believe he was on the level of prime centers like Russell, Walton, Thurmond, Lanier, Gilmore, and Hakeem, either. And clearly he was nowhere near the level of a prime KAJ, Shaq, or Chamberlain.

I have said it before...Sabonis was highly skilled for a big man. Judging from what I have seen, and even read, in his prime, he likely would have had a very good NBA career. But I have never seen any evidence which would suggest that he was ever on the level of the truly great NBA centers.

[QUOTE=julizaver]Robinson and Sabonis are almost the same age. In '86 Robinson we could call it even at least, and '88 Sabonis was not fully recovered by his ACL injuries.



Sabonis was never a volume scorer for his team like McAdoo, he was more of a team player and good reader of the game with great basketball IQ. With that said scoring argument is not very appropriate in Sabonis case. Sabonis is more of Tim Dunkan type of player.

In my opinion with proper training (NBA) and without injuries Sabonis could have a shot as Top 10 center All Time. In terms of talent and skills he was ahead of Ewing and Robinson. And DRob is more athletic in terms of speed and quickness Sabonis had larger frame and height advantage so it would be interesting to watch them H2H.[/QUOTE]

In the mid-70's, McAdoo was arguably the best center in the NBA. Only a prime Kareem would have had a case over him. McAdoo was BLOWING AWAY the league in scoring in that time frame, and was literally unstoppable. He finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP voting in the three year span from '74 thru '76, and the reality was, he was ROBBED of the MVP in '76.

A prime McAdoo was certainly a Top-10 all-time NBA center. And it also speaks volumes about his post-NBA career, that as a 40 year old, he was scoring 30 ppg in Europe.