All MJ myths busted (for reference)

[quote=ralph_i_el]

Lebron took his team to the finals at an age when MJ hadn't left the first round.

[/QUOTE]
In 2007, the 22-year old Lebron didn't have to face a championship team and #1 defense until the Finals, due to weak competition in the Eastern Conference.. Obviously, if he had faced the Spurs in the 1st round, he would've been swept in the first round instead of the Finals..

Otoh, the 22-year-old MJ had to face a championship team and #1 defense in the FIRST ROUND (1986 Celtics), due to superior competition in the Eastern Conference.. Here are both players' performance against championship teams and #1 defenses at 22 years old:

[I]Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics[/I]: 44/6/6 on 51%
[I]Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 22/7/6 on 35%


[quote=ralph_i_el]

He finally got help as good as MJ and won twice.

[/QUOTE]
Lebron had much better help than MJ - MJ's 3rd option was a 1-time allstar (Grant), while Lebron's 3rd option was a 10-time all-star (Bosh).. No one ever had a 10-time all-star as their 3rd option, except Lebron.

Even though Lebron-ball cratered his stats, Bosh averaged 17/7 in 4 years alongside Lebron (including value-add versatility, such as 40% floor-spreading from 3-point range) - this is far superior to Grant's rudimentary 11/8 alongside MJ.. Of course, Ray Allen > BJ armstrong... Chalmers > Paxson.. and on down the line.


[quote=ralph_i_el]


[B]I don't get why you keep saying that LeBron's style is "ineffective" and he's not good enough for the playoffs.. He might have won last year if his second and third best players weren't hurt. Charles Barkley would have a ring if he went up against MJ without Pippen and Grant.[/B]


[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Navy"]You don't get it - the 2015 Finals proved that Lebron is not capable of achieving a decent FG% at high shooting volume - his inability to maintain his efficiency at high volume means he isn't capable of winning a championship *[I]while carrying his team/undertaking high shot volume[/I]*... The reason he can't maintain his efficiency at high volume is because he sucks in the areas required of high volume shooters - mid-range and isolations.. These are all facts.

Otoh, MJ's elite mid-range and isolation ability allowed him to maintain his efficiency at higher shot volume - accordingy, he was SUCCESSFUL winning a championship while carrying his team at high shooting volume.. In the 1993 Finals, MJ averaged 41/9/6 on 52%, despite getting double-teamed incessantly.. Whereas Lebron couldn't maintain his fg% despite not getting double-teamed and having the most secluded isolations in the history of the game - he was just THAT bad in the areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation).
[/COLOR]


[quote=ralph_i_el]


[SIZE="3"][B]We get it[/B][/SIZE] - Lebron is an inconsistent shooter


[/QUOTE]
What do you mean "[I]we get it[/I]"????... Lebron being a bad shooter is one of the biggest factors why he isn't as good as MJ and others!!!!!... Saying "[I]we get it[/I]" won't change that or make anyone forget/gloss-over it.. It will be brought up EVERY time.. Even Steve Kerr brings it up:

[url]https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xat1/v/t1.0-9/p720x720/11403499_956469487706651_6380464349761851951_n.jpg?oh=ac0c2ae4e647a9e1e35ac4193d34c692&oe=56266B66&__gda__=1445800218_a1bdd0a2aedd8b5e945ae701c6109d90[/url]


[quote=ralph_i_el]

Lebron's post game is one of the most efficient in the league every season since he went to the Heat.

[/QUOTE]
This is a lie - you're forgetting that we have stats for every play type - the stats prove Lebron is below-average at post-ups... The NBA's player-tracking data shows Lebron only posts up on 8.6% of possessions, which is 117th in the league... His PPP and fg% on the post rank 150th, and 135th respectively (Lebron isn't even on the first page of post efficiency leaders.. he's on the third page):

[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP[/url]


[quote=ralph_i_el]

MJ is better than LeBron in every facet of the game is just FALSE.

[/QUOTE]
The only area where MJ is not better is defensive rebounds.. MJ is better in every other category.

Just look at passing - in the playoffs, Lebron averages less than 1 assist more per game than MJ, even though the NBA's player-tracking stats show he dominates the ball more than starting PG's... MJ is the superior passer when playing off-ball and he's been proven the better passer as the primary ballhandler too:

The one time MJ got to dominate the ball like a PG (for 24 games at the end of 1989 season), his 30/9/11 averages and stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games is better than anything Lebron has done in his entire CAREER as a ball-dominator..

Lebron did have a 12 game stretch in 2010, where he was the actual, listed PG - his ball-domination went through the roof, more than his standard, and he averaged 30/7/11 - but it was only for 12 games and it was against teams that average 34 wins (lottery teams), while MJ's 24 game stretch came against teams averaging 45 wins (playoff teams).


[quote=ralph_i_el]


The game has evolved, [SIZE="3"][B]defense is more free[/B][/SIZE], shooting is better and offensive strategy is better today.


[/QUOTE]
The bolded above is where you're wrong - today's defenders are more restricted INSIDE the paint - they must stand "[I]within armslength[/I]" to remain in the paint, while previous eras defenders could remain in the paint "[I]with no time restriction[/I]".

However, I agree that today's defenders have more freedom OUTSIDE the paint, but the freedom gap isn't as big as inside the paint - defenders in previous eras didn't have to stand "[I]within armslength[/I]" of their man ANYWHERE on the floor, let alone in the most important area on the floor (the paint).


[quote=ralph_i_el]

Plus, all of MJ's best statistical seasons came in a RUN AND GUN NO DEFENSE ERA.

[/QUOTE]
Pace was slower and ppg was less during all three seasons of MJ's 2nd three-peat... So you're wrong for the 80th time itt.

And before MJ's 2nd three-peat, the Bulls were always the slowest paced team in the league - from MJ's rookie year and throughout his entire career, the Bulls' pace ranged from 89 to 99, which averages to the same as this season's 94 pace.


[quote=ralph_i_el]

Did you honestly just say that LeBron's great transition game would do WORSE in the faster paced 80's?

[/QUOTE]
Lebron would still suck in the halfcourt, which is what matters in the playoffs... The pace in the playoffs from the 80's was the same pace as today.. i.e. the pace in 1988 playoffs was 94.0, and it was 87.4 in 1996, which are both lower than the 94.4 playoff pace in 2015:

(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]


Again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.


[quote=ralph_i_el]

He has almost exactly the same winning % in playoff games as MJ.. He's gone to the finals 5 straight times..

[/QUOTE]
Exactly - Lebron's playoff record IS WORSE, despite facing competition that is verifiably FAR worse:


[IMG]http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg[/IMG]


But most importantly, it's amazing that people can brag about Lebron's Finals appearances with a straight face, when everyone is fully aware that he needed to team-hop for 5/6 of his Finals appearances..

And the one time he made the Finals without team-hopping, he only had to beat a 1 seed that won 53 games - that's the worst record of any 1 seed EVER.. Not surprisingly, Lebron only needed to average 25 ppg on 44.8% fg to beat the WOAT #1 seed ever - 25 ppg on 44.8% would be the worst playoffs series of MJ's entire career.


[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

nope, Elgin had better stats than MJ, so he must have been better.

[/quote]
MJ's stats are better than Elgin's when you adjust for pace, while Lebron's are not..

But more importantly, Lebron plays much worse against the best competition because he's only elite as the ballhandler - this singular focus fares worse against the best teams than MJ and Elgin's elite ability in ALL scoring areas.. A comparison of playoff and Finals stats proves that Lebron performs significantly worse against the better competition.

Furthermore, Lebron's ball-dominance hasn't just hurt his OWN stats against the better teams, but it's proven to make his TEAM ineffective against the better playoffs teams... However, even though Lebron-ball dooms his team's capability against the best teams in the playoffs, his supporting cast is still blamed when the team loses.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]again, get specific, or stfu.. I post facts.... for example, you guys post poppycock, ignorant opinion by claiming MJ's era was run-and-gun era, so I respond with facts:[/B]

[I]Pace was slower and ppg was less during MJ's 2nd three-peat - all three seasons had slower league-wide pace and PPG.

And before MJ's 2nd three-peat, the Bulls were always the slowest paced team in the league - from MJ's rookie year and throughout his entire career, the Bulls' pace ranged from 92-97, which is the same as this season's 94 pace.

Furthermore the pace always slows down in the playoffs - pace in the PLAYOFFS from the 80's was the same pace as today.. i.e. the pace in 1988 playoffs was 94.0, and 87.4 in 1996, which are both lower than the 94.4 playoff pace in 2015:

(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
[/I]

[I]Again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.[/I]
.[/QUOTE]
MJ played in 2 eras smart guy.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

MJ played in 2 eras smart guy.

[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Navy"]His stats were GOAT regardless of era.. Also, the Bulls played slow, so their pace was the same as today's pace:[/COLOR]

[U]BULLS' PACE:[/U]

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

MJ played in two eras

[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter - pace always slows down in the playoffs.. The pace in the 80's playoffs was often SLOWER than today's era.. For example, pace was 94.0 and 94.4 in 1988 and 1989 playoffs, respectively, which is the same or lower than the 94.4 pace in 2015 playoffs:

(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(198): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1989.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]


In 1996, the pace was 87.4, which is FAR lower than today's 94.4:

(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]


And again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "[I]no 3-pointer[/I]" 80's - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.

[QUOTE=3ball][COLOR="Navy"]His stats were GOAT regardless of era.. Also, the Bulls played slow, so their pace was the same as today's pace:[/COLOR]

[U]BULLS' PACE:[/U]

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)



Doesn't matter - pace always slows down in the playoffs.. The pace in the 80's playoffs was often SLOWER than today's era.. For example, pace was 94.0 and 94.4 in 1988 and 1989 playoffs, respectively, which is the same or lower than the 94.4 pace in 2015 playoffs:

(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(198): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1989.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]


In 1996, the pace was 87.4, which is FAR lower than today's 94.4:

(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]


And again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "[I]no 3-pointer[/I]" 80's - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
.[/QUOTE]
Why you always gotta be so disingenuous?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Why you always gotta be so disingenuous?[/QUOTE]
If you can't be specific, than you're the disingenuous one.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]get specific, or stfu with your passive-aggressive, beta ass...

say what you mean - don't beat around the bush like a ***[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I was in a rush. Had a job interview.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Mo's stats were stagnant or worse alongside Lebron, while Pippen's stats increased by leaps and bounds alongside MJ.. Pippen improved alongside MJ, while Mo didn't improve alongside Lebron - those are the FACTS.[/B]


[B]Lebron had much better help than MJ - MJ's 3rd option was a 1-time allstar (Grant), while Lebron's 3rd option was a 10-time all-star (Bosh)[/B].. No one ever had a 10-time all-star as their 3rd option, except Lebron.


[COLOR="Navy"]You don't get it - [B]the 2015 Finals proved that Lebron is not capable of achieving a decent FG% at high shooting volume - his inability to maintain his efficiency at high volume means he isn't capable of winning a championship *[I]while carrying his team/undertaking high shot volume[/I]*...[/B] The reason he can't maintain his efficiency at high volume is because he sucks in the areas required of high volume shooters - mid-range and isolations.. These are all facts.


[B]This is a lie - you're forgetting that we have stats for every play type - the stats prove Lebron is below-average at post-ups... [/B]The NBA's player-tracking data shows Lebron only posts up on 8.6% of possessions, which is 117th in the league... His PPP and fg% on the post rank 150th, and 135th respectively (Lebron isn't even on the first page of post efficiency leaders.. he's on the third page):

[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP[/url]



The only area where MJ is not better is defensive rebounds.. [B]MJ is better in every other category.[/B]

Just look at passing - [B]in the playoffs, Lebron averages less than 1 assist more per game than MJ[/B],


[B]But most importantly, it's amazing that people can brag about Lebron's Finals appearances with a straight face, when everyone is fully aware that he needed to team-hop for 5/6 of his Finals appearances.. [/B]

MJ's stats are better than Elgin's when you adjust for pace, while Lebron's are not.. When you adjust for pace, Elgin's still blow Lebron's away, [B]while MJ's destroy Elgin's.[/B]. :confusedshrug:

[/QUOTE]
1) Mislead by not taking in to consideration that Pippen played with MJ from the time he was a rookie (most players' worst season) until he was a 7th or 8th year player or so (the time most players peak)

2) Mislead because most of those all-star selections were made before Lebron. I do agree, however, that Lebron had a more talented cast around him, but Jordan's teams were more stacked in that, I believe, they were built more appropriately.

3) Mislead because you're claiming that one series proves something about an entire career of an individual.

4) Mislead because... just look at the list of "players" in front of Lebron, then come back to me. :facepalm

5) Mislead because MJ is not better in every other category... 3p shooting, for one.

6) Mislead because you referenced APG as a barometer for passing ability.

7) Mislead because you choose to apply context when it's appropriate for you. To you, numbers are numbers, so don't refute the numbers on Lebron.. He's made 5 straight Finals as the best player on his team. Jordan didn't do that.

8) Mislead because you don't know what the word "destroy" means. "Destroy" implies that MJ has Lebron beat by a very wide margin.
30/6/5/2/1 on 50%
vs
25/6/7/2/1 on 49%
is hardly "destroying"

[QUOTE=kshutts1]1) Mislead by not taking in to consideration that Pippen played with MJ from the time he was a rookie (most players' worst season) until he was a 7th or 8th year player or so (the time most players peak)

2) Mislead because most of those all-star selections were made before Lebron. I do agree, however, that Lebron had a more talented cast around him, but Jordan's teams were more stacked in that, I believe, they were built more appropriately.

3) mislead because you're saying that one series (2015 Finals) proves something about the entire career of an individual.

[/QUOTE]
1) so you concede that pippen was young and inexperienced as a rookie and 2nd year player, and that all star mo Williams was better.. We know for certain that by virtue of being an all star, mo williams was a top 24 player, or closer to that than 2nd year pip.. So mo Williams was more of a help vs. the competition than pip, which supports the original argument that mj's 89 bulls were more of a 1 man team than lebron's 2009 and 2010 cavaliers (see myth #6 in the op).


2) lebron's ball-dominant, low-assisted style from the SF position (lebron-ball) only requires shooters, and no team had more shooters than lebron's teams.. He even had a 10 time all star pf spreading the floor and hitting 40% from deep for him and the goat shooter in Allen.. Lebron's cast was built well around what lebron's game is (pnr/drive-and-kick)..

The real reason lebron only went 2/4 with a more talented cast than jordan had, is because this style is solvable/suboptimal and he had arguably the biggest choke ever in sports.. That tarnished him and established a precedent to blame him for future losses.. Ray Allen's walk off in 2013 merely postponed a trend where opposing teams play a superior brand of basketball and render his stats empty - they're empty whether he takes a passive 17 fga in 2014 Finals on all 3-and-D to protect efficiency, or whether he doubles the fga to 34, but the additional isolations and midrange required of high volume shooting tanks his efficiency.


3) it isnt just one series - lebron shot 41.7% for the entire playoffs at the higher volume... the finals was just a continuation of what he had done in the other series.. Thats why iggy and his 16/6/4 didnt deserve fmvp..

But more importantly, we knew lebron couldnt shoot a good percentage at high volume BEFORE the playoffs started.. the nba's player tracking stats show that lebron is bad at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooters.. So his poor efficiency at the higher volume could've been predicted.


I'll get to the rest of your sophistry later.. :rolleye:
.

I can't keep doing this 3ball. You're too logically inconsistent for me to argue with without writing big ass essays every time.
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2014/E_1XF7.gif[/IMG]

Some of the Jordan "Myths"...

He single-handedly shot his team down the drain against the crumbling '87 Celtics, with a .417 FG% sweeping loss series, which included a clinching game three performance of 9-30 from the field.

He quit on his team in a series that was tied 2-2, with a 4-8 performance, which ultimately cost his team the series.

His teammates were so good without him, that they went 55-27 (and had Pippen and Grant not missed 22 games, they likely would have won 60+, and a possible world title.)

He came back the following season, to the same roster that had gone 55-27 without him, sans Grant, and he couldn't lead them any further than Grant and Pippen had the year before. In fact, it is GRANT who pummels his team with an 18-11 .647 series. Unlike POS Bosh, Grant actually had an IMPACT.


Meanwhile, Lebron joins a Cavs team that had gone 17-65 with their "all-star" center, and immediately doubled their win total. Within a couple of years he dragged one of the worst rosters in NBA history to the team's first Finals in their team history.

He would take that same cast of clowns to records of 66-16 and 61-21.

He left that pathetic team, and they immediately fell to 19-63.

He joined a Heat team that had been routed in the first round the year before. He immediately led them to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In the next three years he would lead them to three more Finals, and two titles, including one in which his "10 time All-Star" PF scored ZERO points in a game seven.

Lebron leaves the Heat, and with a broken down Wade, and the career loser Bosh, who has been a NON-FACTOR his ENTIRE career, they stumble to a 37-45 record, and can't even make the playoffs in a weak conference.

Meanwhile, Lebron takes a 33-49 team to a 53-29 record, and as trip to yet another Finals. And without his two best teammates, and with his best teammate now the Knick reject JR Smith, who put up a 12-4-1 .326 series...he single-handedly led his team to TWO wins, and two close losses, against a 67-15 Warrior team that blew away the NBA.

You don't need to respond to the rest of my post, 3ball. I got my answer. You really do believe those "facts" that you tell. That was all I wanted; not to debate the merits of said "facts".

(My explanation for this phenomenon is that the Heat simply gave up halfway through the series, starting in Game 3 - when a defense realizes their offense can't keep up, there's zero motivation to keep putting forth the effort to play defense - why keep playing D when you know your offense can't keep up?... It's the same guys playing offense and defense you know - defenders are AWARE of what's happening on offense.

the heat giving up in Games 3-5 is definitely Lebron's fault - his passive approach and 17 fga per game gave the Heat ZERO chance to keep up with the Spurs - it's no surprise the defense gave up halfway through the series.. this is a stark contrast to MJ in the 1993 Finals, where his 33 fga and good efficiency BARELY allowed the Bulls to keep up with the Suns offense and eventually squeak by - both teams averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg in that series, so every ounce of MJ's 33 fga was needed - if Lebron shoots 33 fga on 51% in 2014 Finals, then he squeaks by, just like MJ did... And there's no excuse either, because Lebron never got doubled teamed by the Spurs, while MJ faced incessant double-teams).

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

Even without Jordan, they almost beat the Knicks in 1994 ECF 2nd Round.

[/QUOTE]
And WITH Jordan, they were a 3 peat dynasty... The fall to the 2nd round was an utterly massive drop-off.. But im uour mind, basketball players are just numbers-producing robots, you so probably think the Bulls could've made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?

Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.

Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.


[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

MJ hindered pippen's ability to be a leader

[/QUOTE]
Chill bud... There's a reason Shaq said Pippen sucked - the guy could only make the 2nd Round with a 3-peat caliber supporting cast.. :facepalm

And the Bulls would've gone down 3-0 and gotten swept if Kukoc doesn't save the entire series and Pippen's ass with the miracle walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter the game in an epic choke.


[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

Just imagine if they replaced Mj with someone decent. Team was already a contender without MJ, thats a fact

[/QUOTE]
If people think kobe or mitch richmond (:facepalm ) would win in 1994, then MJ would've 9-peated FOR SURE, and he's not only the goat, but he'll always be the goat (which is probably true for our lifetimes anyway, and probably ever too tbh.. it's pretty impossible to have the career he had).

Btw, what good is it to say "[I]kobe would've won a 4th ring in 1994[/I]", when he couldn't average the 36/7/8 on 53% that the Bulls needed from MJ to 3-peat in the first place (those were MJ's Finals averages)?.. Kobe's typical 25/5/5 on 45% in the Finals wouldn't have come anywhere NEAR being enough to 3-peat.

So if Kobe can't 3-peat in the first place, then it doesn't matter whether he could win a 4th straight ring with [I][U]MJ's[/U][/I] 3-peat Bulls.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]You're the one that said the 2009 cavs won 19 more games than the 1989 bulls because lebron was better than MJ.. You offered no logic to backup your claim.

Because there is none.. MJ had better stats and carried a lower seed much further, while lebron had worse stats and lost in 2nd round with the 1 seed.. Like, there is zero basis to say lebron is better than mj, let alone 19 games better.
.[/QUOTE]

Adjusted for pace their stat differences were negligible. LeBron had an insane level of control over his team's offense, and played all time great defense on 1-4's. His team played a grind it out style that required him to carry an untalented offense....and they won 66 games

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

Adjusted for pace their stat differences were negligible. LeBron had an insane level of control over his team's offense, and played all time great defense on 1-4's. His team played a grind it out style that required him to carry an untalented offense....and they won 66 games

[/QUOTE]
None of this is an argument for why the 2009 cavs won 19 more games than the 1989 bulls even though lebron's stats were slightly worse than MJ's.

The 19 more wins weren't because lebron "controlled his team better".. That's just some shit you made up - I can say the same thing about any player whose stats can't be used to make my argument.

Btw, you say I'm not logical, but you lie and make stuff up - lebron did NOT guard other positions like pg or pf in 2009.. And the idea that he guards them today is also bullshit.. MJ guarded pg's FAR more often than lebron guards big men, and MJ guarded big men as often as lebron guards pg's.. MJ guarded Vlade Divac in 1991 finals and guarded bigs in other instances as well - this is the same amount lebron guards pg's.

Again, your arguments aren't true, and don't compare to the obvious and intuitive arguments staring is in the face - that the 19 more wins are due to the cavs playing worse competition and having a better supporting cast.
.