Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist

[QUOTE=3ball].
[B]Possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):[/B]


[I]2015 Cavs[/I]: 92.3/22.1 = [COLOR="red"]4.18[/COLOR]
[I]2014 Heat[/I]: 91.2/22.5 = [COLOR="Red"]4.05[/COLOR]
[I]2013 Heat[/I]: 90.7/23.0 = [COLOR="Red"]3.94[/COLOR]
[I]2012 Heat[/I]: 91.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.56[/COLOR]
[I]2011 Heat[/I]: 90.9/20.0 = [COLOR="red"]4.55[/COLOR]
[I]2010 Cavs[/I]: 91.4/22.4 = [COLOR="Red"]4.08[/COLOR]
[I]2009 Cavs[/I]: 88.7/20.3 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
[I]2008 Cavs[/I]: 90.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.51[/COLOR]
[I]2007 Cavs[/I]: 90.8/20.8 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
[I]2006 Cavs[/I]: 89.8/19.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.72[/COLOR]


[I]1998 Bulls[/I]: 89.0/23.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.74[/COLOR]
[I]1997 Bulls[/I]: 90.0/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.45[/COLOR]
[I]1996 Bulls[/I]: 91.1/24.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
[I]1993 Bulls[/I]: 92.5/26.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.56[/COLOR]
[I]1992 Bulls[/I]: 94.4/27.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.40[/COLOR]
[I]1991 Bulls[/I]: 95.6/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.54[/COLOR]
[I]1990 Bulls[/I]: 96.7/26.5 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
[I]1989 Bulls[/I]: 97.0/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.59[/COLOR]
[I]1988 Bulls[/I]: 95.5/26.2 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
[I]1987 Bulls[/I]: 95.8/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
[I]1985 Bulls[/I]: 99.4/24.3 = [COLOR="Blue"]4.09[/COLOR]


[I]2015 GSW[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 98.3/27.4 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.59[/COLOR]
[I]2014 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 95.0/25.2 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.77[/COLOR]
[I]2011 Mavs[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 91.3/23.8 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.84[/COLOR]
[I]2007 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 89.8/22.1 = [COLOR="Magenta"]4.06[/COLOR]

[I]1987 Lakers[/I]: 101.6/29.6 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.43[/COLOR]
[I]1986 Celtics[/I]: 102.1/29.1 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.47[/COLOR]

[I]Source: basketball-reference.com[/I]


[/QUOTE]


and from the numbers in which you have derived, we will go ahead and include the range numerically from 3-4.5

means that 'every 3 to 4.5 possessions, one will result in a basket due to team ball movement, or assist plays' depending on how your teams offense is constructed.

which also means there are 2 to 3.5 possessions in which an attempt will come not through an assisted play.

and even if we were to go ahead and assume that given these scenarios, NBA players will now periodically attempt field goals at a less than desirable rate for the whole game from the increase in none-assisted isolation plays.

(pace(z) - apg(y))*fg%(x) + apg(y) = total field goal made
zx - yx + y
zx - y(x-1) = x(z-y) + y
x is a set number less than 1

zx = (1-x)y
zx/y = 1-x
z/y = (1-x)/x

the better your team shoots, the less assist matters

4.5 = (1-x)/x
4.5x = 1-x
4.5 = 1/x - 1
5.5 = 1/x
x=0.18

3 = (1-x)/x
3x = 1-x
3 = 1/x - 1
4 = 1/x
x = 0.25

0.18az = 0.25bz
(0.18/0.25) = b/a
0.72 = b/a
b = 0.72a

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.

[QUOTE=GimmeThat]and from the numbers in which you have derived, we will go ahead and include the range numerically from 3-4.5

means that 'every 3 to 4.5 possessions, one will result in a basket due to team ball movement, or assist plays' depending on how your teams offense is constructed.

which also means there are 2 to 3.5 possessions in which an attempt will come not through an assisted play.

and even if we were to go ahead and assume that given these scenarios, NBA players will now periodically attempt field goals at a less than desirable rate for the whole game from the increase in none-assisted isolation plays.

(pace(z) - apg(y))*fg%(x) + apg(y) = total field goal made
zx - yx + y
zx - y(x-1) = x(z-y) + y
x is a set number less than 1

zx = (1-x)y
zx/y = 1-x
z/y = (1-x)/x

the better your team shoots, the less assist matters

4.5 = (1-x)/x
4.5x = 1-x
4.5 = 1/x - 1
5.5 = 1/x
x=0.18

3 = (1-x)/x
3x = 1-x
3 = 1/x - 1
4 = 1/x
x = 0.25

0.18az = 0.25bz
(0.18/0.25) = b/a
0.72 = b/a
b = 0.72a

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.[/QUOTE]

stat nerd mumbo jumbo

[QUOTE=GimmeThat]and from the numbers in which you have derived, we will go ahead and include the range numerically from 3-4.5

means that 'every 3 to 4.5 possessions, one will result in a basket due to team ball movement, or assist plays' depending on how your teams offense is constructed.

which also means there are 2 to 3.5 possessions in which an attempt will come not through an assisted play.

and even if we were to go ahead and assume that given these scenarios, NBA players will now periodically attempt field goals at a less than desirable rate for the whole game from the increase in none-assisted isolation plays.

(pace(z) - apg(y))*fg%(x) + apg(y) = total field goal made
zx - yx + y
zx - y(x-1) = x(z-y) + y
x is a set number less than 1

zx = (1-x)y
zx/y = 1-x
z/y = (1-x)/x

the better your team shoots, the less assist matters

4.5 = (1-x)/x
4.5x = 1-x
4.5 = 1/x - 1
5.5 = 1/x
x=0.18

3 = (1-x)/x
3x = 1-x
3 = 1/x - 1
4 = 1/x
x = 0.25

0.18az = 0.25bz
(0.18/0.25) = b/a
0.72 = b/a
b = 0.72a

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.[/QUOTE]
Damn good work here :applause:

[QUOTE=GimmeThat]

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.

[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you posted or what your point was.. Aren't you the guy that randomly posts ambiguous nonsensical posts when a thread is languishing?

I think you are... And I think that's what you did here.

The stat listed in the OP - team possessions per game/team apg is already pace-adjusted, obviously, although I don't even know if that's what you were saying.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]


[B][SIZE="3"]But if we're trying to add context to this, why NOT do the same with MJ and LeBron led teams?[/SIZE][/B]

We know that Mike played in a structured offense ie. the triangle, while Pippen played point-forward during their championship runs (both of them were great off ball).

[B][SIZE="3"]On the other hand, Bron and Wade were both ball dominant[/SIZE][/B]


[/QUOTE]
[B][I][COLOR="navy"]The context you added doesn't help the argument for Lebron - whose fault is it that Wade and Bron are ball-dominant?.. Their fault... :confusedshrug: [/COLOR][/I]
[/B]
Otoh, MJ was elite at both ball-dominance and off-ball play, which has been my point all along.. His elite off-ball ability enabled him to have a high-assisted rate, which increased the playmaking capacity of the team.

For Wade and Lebron, their ball-dominance caused them to have low-assisted rates like a guard - this wasn't suboptimal in Wade's case, since PG's and SG's frequently have low-assisted rates... But Lebron's ball-dominance turned a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low assisted one, which lowers the playmaking capacity of his teams relative to other teams who had more traditional, high-assisted SF's and PF's.

Lebron's abnormally low-assisted rate for his position is part of the reason ALL his teams have low assist frequency, not just his Heat teams.. Look at the 2015 Cavs - they have the same problem the Heat had - two low-assisted ball-dominators (Kyrie and Lebron).. It's not suboptimal for Kyrie, but it is for Lebron... Btw, replace Lebron with MJ on the Heat or this year's Cavs, and it's hard to imagine chemistry not being WORLDS better as MJ plays off-ball, while Kyrie and Wade do their thing.

[QUOTE=3ball]I have no idea what you posted or what your point was.. Aren't you the guy that randomly posts ambiguous nonsensical posts when a thread is languishing?

I think you are... And I think that's what you did here.

The stat listed in the OP - team possessions per game/team apg is already pace-adjusted, obviously, although I don't even know if that's what you were saying.[/QUOTE]

Besides the obvious fast breaks and offensive put backs, how many different ways are there really to score without being assisted?

Are iso plays more ordinary, or assisted plays more ordinary?

[QUOTE=GimmeThat]


Besides the obvious fast breaks and offensive put backs, [COLOR="Red"][size="3"]how many different ways are there really to score without being assisted[/SIZE][/COLOR]?


[/QUOTE]
[B]Being the ballhandler in screen-roll, which constitutes 26% of Lebron and Harden's offense.. Isolations are another 26%.

So a total of 52% of Lebron and Harden's offense is either screen-roll or isolations:[/B]

[I]isolation stats, sorted by frequency[/I]:
[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time[/url]

[I]screen-roll stats for ballhandler, sorted by frequency - Lebron & Harden are on 3rd page[/I]: [url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time[/url]


Transition is about 20% and post-ups are another 8%.... The types of plays that are really rare for Lebron and Harden are "spot-up", "cut", and "off-screen"... Less than 3% in these categories for both guys.. It's obvious that these guys don't play off-ball.

Otoh, MJ was elite at both ball-dominance and off-ball play, which has been my point all along.. His elite off-ball ability enabled him to have a high-assisted rate, which increased the playmaking capacity of the team.. This is the theme of the OP, where MJ's teams had significantly higher assist frequencies than Lebron's teams.

Unfortunately for Lebron, his ball-dominance caused him to have low-assisted rates like a point guard.. His ball-dominance turned a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low assisted one, which lowers the playmaking capacity of his teams relative to other teams who had more traditional, high-assisted SF's and PF's.

[QUOTE=3ball]Unfortunately for Lebron, his ball-dominance caused him to have low-assisted rates like a point guard.. His ball-dominance turned a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low assisted one, which lowers the playmaking capacity of his teams relative to other teams who had more traditional, high-assisted SF's and PF's.[/QUOTE]
Kinda have a one sided view there, so since his pg like assisted % so detrimental, why ignore how his entire teams assist rates are? For the coaching system in place the numbers were what you'd expect just with a quick glance of Miami years. Low assist rates for lebron and wade which were naturally the setup/iso guys on the team. Real high assist rates for the shooters. Can't just spit numbers out without citing style or philosophy and expect it to hold much weight. By him becoming the playmaker he in turn makes the pg more of an assisted scoring option to counter whatever gap you perceive him leaving behind. There was only one guy on the team that could make the passes he needed to be elite off ball with regularity. Wade of course. And vice versa lebron was the only one who could do it for wade. With Lebron off ball who did you expect to run the team once wade became hobbled constantly?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

since his pg like assisted % is so detrimental, [B]why ignore how his entire teams assist rates are? [/B]

[/quote]
[I]Are you being serious?... This entire thread is about how Lebron's teams assist at a far lower frequency than basically all of his peers... Re-read the OP - Lebron's teams have FAR lower assist frequency than MJ's teams, as well as Duncan, Curry, Magic and Bird's teams.[/I]


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Low assist rates for lebron and wade which were naturally the setup/iso guys on the team.

[/QUOTE]
MJ was the "setup/iso" guy as you say, but his assisted rate was 52% because MJ wasn't just a primary ballhandler - he had an off-ball game as well, which made him a highly assisted player...

It's an indictment on Lebron that he can't do this (play off-ball so he can be highly-assisted, like frontcourt players are supposed to be)


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

By Lebron becoming the playmaker, he makes the pg more of an assisted scoring option to counter whatever gap you perceive him leaving behind.

[/QUOTE]
Kyrie was assisted on 32% of his shots in 2015, which was exactly the same as 2014.. So your argument is wrong... You can't spit out ideas without actually researching them bud.. When you do that, I rip you a new asshole.

[QUOTE=3ball][I]Are you being serious?... This entire thread is about how Lebron's teams assist at a far lower frequency than basically all of his peers... Re-read the OP - Lebron's teams have FAR lower assist frequency than MJ's teams, as well as Duncan, Curry, Magic and Bird's teams.[/I]



MJ was the "setup/iso" guy as you say, but his assisted rate was 52% because MJ wasn't just a primary ballhandler - he had an off-ball game as well, which made him a highly assisted player...

It's an indictment on Lebron that he can't do this (play off-ball so he can be highly-assisted, like frontcourt players are supposed to be)



Kyrie was assisted on 32% of his shots in 2015, which was exactly the same as 2014.. So your argument is wrong... You can't spit out ideas without actually researching them bud.. When you do that, I rip you a new asshole.[/QUOTE]

Pretty interesting stuff but you could be just a homer of your favorite team or your favorite era of basketball.

Who's your favorite team by the way?

[QUOTE=3ball][I]Are you being serious?... This entire thread is about how Lebron's teams assist at a far lower frequency than basically all of his peers... Re-read the OP - Lebron's teams have FAR lower assist frequency than MJ's teams, as well as Duncan, Curry, Magic and Bird's teams.[/I][/QUOTE]
No you dumb ****, not a stat you made up. I mean on a detail level, which is likely beyond you since it took you several years to move beyond the basics of ppg.....look at the percentages, for each guy, and they tell the exact story of what you saw on those teams.(if you watched, who am I kidding we both know you watched, too obsessed) Like clockwork. Lebron gives special attention to his bigs, the shooters don't get much help beyond outside shots(which is only right because that's the spot on the floor they occupy mind you)

[QUOTE]MJ was the "setup/iso" guy as you say, but his assisted rate was 52% because MJ wasn't just a primary ballhandler - he had an off-ball game as well, which made him a highly assisted player... [/QUOTE]
So MJ was a primary ball handler and off ball goat simultaneously? Mind blown. Off ball passing and scoring while somehow being the primary ball handler. No wonder you think he walks on water.:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]It's an indictment on Lebron that he can't do this (play off-ball so he can be highly-assisted, like frontcourt players are supposed to be)[/QUOTE]
Feeble thoughts for a feeble mind. Lebron is pretty unique as a player, so I doubt this "like front court players are supposed to be" notion really applies.


[QUOTE]Kyrie was assisted on 32% of his shots in 2015, which was exactly the same as 2014.. So your argument is wrong... You can't spit out ideas without actually researching them bud.. When you do that, I rip you a new asshole.[/QUOTE]
Well of course my argument is wrong if you pick the one most favorable case for your rebuttal and ignore all else. If you actually looked for yourself you'd see that [B]the majority of Lebron's teammates throughout his career have career highs in assisted percentage years they play alongside him.[/B] From stars like wade, Bosh and Love to role players like Tristian, batter etc. So really this insistence that your made up numbers prove any decent point are silly.

The funniest thing about your life's work is Mj wouldn't even appreciate all your persistence. He'd just sue you for 10 million for constantly having his likeness in your mouth.

Love making up new algorithms to judge teams/players. It's always fun mixing your favorite sport with your favorite subjects.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

the majority of Lebron's teammates throughout his career have career highs in [B]assisted percentage[/B] years they play alongside him... i.e. Wade, Bosh, Love

[B]look at the percentages, for each guy,[/B] and they tell the exact story of what you saw on those teams.

[/QUOTE]
Sure, let's look at each guy individually - Wade, Bosh, Love - alongside Lebron, their assisted percentage was up (more play-finishing), but their own assist percentage was WAY down (less playmaking).. Lebron's ball-dominance turned them from playmakers into play-finishers, which doesn't promote an optimal brand of basketball (equal-opportunity).

Since Lebron's teams don't play the best brand of basketball, opponents of equal or lesser talent have the opportunity to pull the upset by playing a superior brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, upsets never happened to MJ, because his style allowed his teams to play an optimal brand of basketball - [i]opponents could never upset the Bulls by offsetting a talent disadvantage with a better brand of basketball[/i].. That's why MJ went 6/6 and never underachieved, while Lebron is 2/6 with several upsets/underachievements on his record.


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Lebron is pretty unique as a player, so I doubt this "like front court players are supposed to be" notion really applies.

[/QUOTE]
Oh, he's unique alright - his ball-dominance turns a high-assisted position into a low-assisted one, thus lowering the assist capacity of his team.. That's super-unique... That's what happens when a player plays point guard (a low-assisted position) [I]from the frontcourt[/I] (normally high-assisted positions).


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

No you dumb ****, not a stat you made up.

[/quote]
I didn't make up the stat.. Team possessions per game/team assists per game has always existed and been available, regardless of whether the mainstream media ever uses it - this shows how [I]in-the-box[/I] of a thinker you are... For you, it's only a legit stat if you've seen it on espn.. The stat couldn't be simpler, but it's "fake" to you because you never saw it in mainstream media before.

That's a suboptimal way to think about the game, which means you'll continue to be routinely surprised by things that happen on the court (i.e. "wow, i didn't think so-and-so would be that good"... or, "wow, that team really surprised me", etc, etc.)

[QUOTE=3ball]Kuniva - The Cavs lost half their team in 2011 (Mo Williams, Shaq, Zydrunas, Delonte, Varejao), so it's dumb to attribute their 0.20 change in assist frequency to Lebron... Same thing in 2015, when Wade and Bosh were hurt much of the year.

If you can't see that, then I can't help you... You don't see me bragging about MJ's 1992 and 1993 Bulls having a higher assist frequency than the 1994 Bulls, because it's meaningless without bigger sample size to cancel out extenuating circumstances, like those mentioned above with Lebron's former teams.

[B]The only thing we have a big enough sample size for is team comparisons of Lebron's teams to other teams - and clearly, his teams have far lower assist frequency than basically everyone, not just MJ's teams - this is statistical fact.[/B]

Don't be dumb bud - unfortunately, by thinking Bankaii had some sort of point... that makes you dumb, at least on this.[/QUOTE]
I must have missed it. Can you please post the "possessions per assist" for every team in the league, for all of the years listed in the OP? I'd like to see how Jordan and Lebron stack up league-wide, rather than be told that Jordan is great and Lebron is bad.

[QUOTE=3ball]Sure, let's look at each guy individually - Wade, Bosh, Love - alongside Lebron, their assisted percentage was up (more play-finishing), but their own assist percentage was WAY down (less playmaking).. Lebron's ball-dominance turned them from playmakers into play-finishers, which doesn't promote an optimal brand of basketball (equal-opportunity).

Since Lebron's teams don't play the best brand of basketball, opponents of equal or lesser talent have the opportunity to pull the upset by playing a superior brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, upsets never happened to MJ, because his style allowed his teams to play an optimal brand of basketball - [i]opponents could never upset the Bulls by offsetting a talent disadvantage with a better brand of basketball[/i].. That's why MJ went 6/6 and never underachieved, while Lebron is 2/6 with several upsets/underachievements on his record.



[B]Oh, he's unique alright - his ball-dominance turns a high-assisted position into a low-assisted one, thus lowering the assist capacity of his team.. That's super-unique... That's what happens when a player plays point guard (a low-assisted position) [I]from the frontcourt[/I] (normally high-assisted positions).[/B]



I didn't make up the stat.. Team possessions per game/team assists per game has always existed and been available, regardless of whether the mainstream media ever uses it - this shows how [I]in-the-box[/I] of a thinker you are... For you, it's only a legit stat if you've seen it on espn.. The stat couldn't be simpler, but it's "fake" to you because you never saw it in mainstream media before.

That's a suboptimal way to think about the game, which means you'll continue to be routinely surprised by things that happen on the court (i.e. "wow, i didn't think so-and-so would be that good"... or, "wow, that team really surprised me", etc, etc.)[/QUOTE]
I'm very interested in the bolded. So if Lebron plays PG, yet also plays in the front court... does that mean there are only four players on the court for his teams?
Or do you really mean....
When Lebron is playing PG, there is someone else playing his "front court" position, and when Lebron is being the front-court player you believe him to be, there is someone else playing the PG?

Because I watch a lot more basketball than you do; we all do, actually. And that second statement rings more true.

What this "possessions per assist" shows, IMO, is that Lebron plays in a less-creative offense than Jordan did. And that Lebron is asked to make plays for his teammates more than Jordan was. And that Lebron is asked to score one-on-one more often than Jordan was. And you know what? Lebron's pretty awesome at that.
He's one of the best players, ever, at creating for others, and one of the best players, ever, at scoring on his own.
Please don't spout recent Finals/playoffs FG%, because I'll take the significantly larger sample size of his ENTIRE CAREER as opposed to the last POs. And that sample size says that Lebron James averages 27ppg on 50% for his career.
And considering that he's tasked with more on the offensive end, on average, than Jordan was, that's pretty darn impressive. Maybe not as effective, but I'd be the second person to say that Lebron is not as good as Jordan (you'd be the first; no one can beat you to that punch).